Seattle trades Frank Clark to Chiefs for 2019 1st and 2020 2nd

[Aussie Joe]

I have been really keen on the Bills signing Clark but I understand why they didn’t pick him up looking at the picks given up..

 

So plan B - onto Ziggy for one year ?? He is not a bad player but again you have to  roll the dice on him not being injured (another one!) which  recent history suggests is a major risk..

 

Not overly keen on Sweat or Burns at 9... Maybe they take a flier in the 3rd or 4th on Joe Jackson or Maxx Crosby or Winovich and hope for the best..

 

Hughes might be getting that extension soon..

 

 

 

[Mojo44]

56 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I'm on the fence. 

 

Bills would be much better served at this point in their rebuild with an instant impact veteran pass rusher on the defensive line rather than a rookie whom in all likelihood is going to struggle and take some time to develop. 

 

The 9th overall pick is hard to give up I get it. 

 This is not necessarily true at all and I disagree with your “all likelihood“ qualifier.  If you pick an edge rusher with the ninth pick you absolutely expect some positive impact. Doesn’t have to be pro bowl level but clearly significant.  Anything beyond that would be gravy. In this case, anyway, I will keep the first pick. 

[Lurker]

4 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

two ultra-productive older players for, essentially, the price of Clark.

 

Fixed.   

 

At 26 when training camp starts, Clark's career is still rising.     Houston's definitely headed downhill and Ford at 28 years old is sure to get there more quickly than Clark...

[Nester]

Imagine if they gave up the 2020 1st round pick.

 

 

wtf would we talk about next Feb -April??

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, Nester said:

Imagine if they gave up the 2020 1st round pick.

 

 

wtf would we talk about next Feb -April??

Our first superbowl win of course!

[Stank_Nasty]

29 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

They got a second next year for Ford so it's basically like giving them a one this year and swapping thirds. Also, Clark has a much better NFLhistory and Ford is kind of a one-year Wonder.

both of them have 10 or more sacks in 2 out of the last 3 years..... again, IMO, ford and keeping my first this year and 2nd next year is more valuable to me than clark at face value. there is obviously more underneath that surface that we don't know about. 

[ColoradoBills]

28 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

.....now with another example of the $$$ market lines being drawn with the Clark signing, it seems to be clear what the Texans would have to come up with and it looks like their cap space is :2019-$40+ mil; 2020-$103+ mil....why would they be inclined to dump Clowney?........

 

They got plenty of money.  So my question is why haven't they signed him to a long term contract?

Their GM, HC and DC are all the same from the time they draft Clowney.

If they signed him earlier last year to a long term they could of got him for less $'s.

 

Something is peculiar about this.  Maybe they just don't want him long term?

[cle23]

5 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

both of them have 10 or more sacks in 2 out of the last 3 years..... again, IMO, ford and keeping my first this year and 2nd next year is more valuable to me than clark at face value. there is obviously more underneath that surface that we don't know about. 

Ford has 30.5 sacks in 67 games started. Clark has 35 in 33 games started. 

[Turk71]

15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Fixed.   

 

At 26 when training camp starts, Clark's career is still rising.     Houston's definitely headed downhill and Ford at 28 years old is sure to get there more quickly than Clark...

The Chiefs got fleeced by Seattle seems to be the consensus grade for this trade.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

53 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They don't have to by any means.    Neither did Seattle have to part with Clark really.   

 

But maybe they want to try to extend DeShaun Watson long term after next season.........and in the process maybe save some significant money and distribute that cost as opposed to waiting.  

 

Let's face it............offense is the long term play in the NFL.......that's what you can keep together and build on......a top defense is hard to keep intact and consistent.

 

Getting a stud LT for a QB with a reconstructed knee sounds good..........and the report is that they think one is there at #9.

 

I'm not convinced there is a great LT at #9 but if they do then that's an important get for them.  

 

 

...thanks for the assessment.....didn't really follow all of the details leading up to the Clark decision......uncertainty of signing tender and the Wilson booty?...

Edited April 23, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[DCbillsfan]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

Wow. They gave up a ton. Glad the Bills didn't do that.

Not to mention a big $ contract to sign Clark.

[DCbillsfan]

I find this trade rather curious.  The Chiefs released Kareem Hunt last season for his alleged domestic violence videotape.  He hasn't been convicted of anything yet.  Then you have Tyreek Hill who is accused of breaking his son's arm.  Now they traded for Clark who has his own domestic violence issues.  When will the Chiefs wise up?  

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

34 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

The Chiefs got fleeced by Seattle seems to be the consensus grade for this trade.

 

Not really at all..... To me I would make the trade.  Be like drafting Frank Clark per say. But if it was two first rounders no way. Frank Clark is a pretty good player.

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Because the Chiefs are switching to a 4-3 this offseason.

OHhhhhhh!

Well that explains it all. Thx for the info, had no clue. Still feel they gave up a bit much 

[Orlando Tim]

While i understand why chiefs did what they did, i am glad bills did not make this deal. He is apparently getting 65 million guaranteed which is more than a lot of guys get who i think are better and i will be  interested to see his motivation now.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

 

A great pass rush solves a lot of secondary problems...

 

They didn't just become a great pass rush D by replacing Ford with Clark though.

[Turk71]

 

43 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

The Chiefs got fleeced by Seattle seems to be the consensus grade for this trade.

 

8 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

Not really at all..... To me I would make the trade.  Be like drafting Frank Clark per say. But if it was two first rounders no way. Frank Clark is a pretty good player.

I am merely commenting on the consensus among analysts, sportswriters pundits etc. regarding the trade. Personally I am glad it wasn't the Bills.

   Hughes and Zo both graded higher than Clark on PFF for whatever its worth. Here is their top players for last season.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-top-101-players-from-the-2018-nfl-season

   Hughes Zo and Hyde made the list. Houston and Ford both did as well. Clark not on it.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

I think I said exactly what I meant.... sorry it got you upset. I wasn't criticizing our top 5 GM.??

Others seem to have gotten the joke. I’ll try to dumb down my sarcasm next time. 

[QCity]

1 hour ago, Turk71 said:

The Chiefs got fleeced by Seattle seems to be the consensus grade for this trade.

 

I'd have to agree. Clark isn't $30+M GTD plus a 1st rd pick better than Ford.

[Oldfan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

While i understand why chiefs did what they did, i am glad bills did not make this deal. He is apparently getting 65 million guaranteed which is more than a lot of guys get who i think are better and i will be  interested to see his motivation now.

Bills and Chiefs are in different parts of the road in the journey to the Superbowl 

 

Buffalo is still building, and holds a higher value pick than #29 

[Zerovoltz]

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

We will soon find out what ZeroVolts will have to say.

 

1.  Sad to say, 85% of Chiefs fans dont understand the cap and also way over value draft choices.  

 

Ok.  Some of you here have correctly identified that KC is taking advantage of Mahomes rookie deal.  This is exactly what you do when you have a franchise QB playing for pennies.  

 

The compensation is this years 1st and one of our 2020 2nds.

 

that equates to about pick 24 in terms of trade chart value.

 

highly unlikely KC could move up to 24 and get a Frank Clark caliber player.  

 

The compensation is high, but again, what good is cap space due to the rookie QBs deal unless you use it?

 

last thought, Dee Ford had exactly one good season.  He’s often hurt and he is awful.....dreadfully awful against the run.  KC has changed schemes and this is a better fit. Besides being a very good pass rusher, Clark is a very good run defender and edge setter.  Dee Ford simply isn’t that guy.  Ford is really good at what he does, and has value but Clark is better.

 

Seattle, conversely with Wilson now being highly paid, has to build with cheap talent in the draft.  When Mahomes gets paid, KC will be in same boat.

[PetermansRedemption]

Even if Clark is double the edge rusher Dee Ford is, I take Ford+ 1st everyday. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Bills2ref

[Zerovoltz]

Just now, Bills2ref said:

Even if Clark is double the edge rusher Dee Ford is, I take Ford, 1st and a 2nd everyday over Clark. 

 

I cant say if this is the right deal, but I do understand what they are doing here.  It’s importantvto note that Clark has been healthy and reliable over the course of his time in the NFL.  Ford has not been.  Had the one really good year in a contract year.  

 

Also, it’s always worth asking, take last years pick 29 and a random late 20s 2nd and find a combo that equals Frank Clark.  It’s hard to do.

[Oldfan]

Can Dee Ford even play a 6 Tech? Hes 245. He’s not not a 4-3 DE. That’s why he “cheats” when he goes to a 3point stance. He can’t  rush the passer from the 4-3 without cheating

[Rochesterfan]

36 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

I cant say if this is the right deal, but I do understand what they are doing here.  It’s importantvto note that Clark has been healthy and reliable over the course of his time in the NFL.  Ford has not been.  Had the one really good year in a contract year.  

 

Also, it’s always worth asking, take last years pick 29 and a random late 20s 2nd and find a combo that equals Frank Clark.  It’s hard to do.

But you also would get to keep Ford.  

 

I understand changing scheme, but the Chiefs dumped two older pass rushers this off season that got less money combined than Clark and then gave up a first and a second in a draft this year that is the sweet spot for some top flight DBs - that they actually need to improve the defense.

 

In the end - Clark is the better player and fits their new scheme, but the defense is not as good and you gave up picks that could easily be used to make the defense better.

 

KC created multiple holes on the defense and then traded away multiple picks to fill holes they created and on top of that they way overpaid for a guy that is marginally better than the players they let go.

 

I think their main competition- NE, Indy, Rams, and NO are less worried about KC with Clark because they can use a quick short/intermediate passing game to combat outside pass rush and KC defensive backfield is putrid.  KC is going to pt up points - they need DBs that can actually cover, LBs that will not be exploited, and safeties that are going to be able to handle other teams passing games because they will be in shoot outs.

 

I would have less issues with the trade if the Chiefs were a pass rusher away from being SuperBowl Champs, but they were not.  The pass rush was not the issue - the LBs and DBs were the issue and the team just got rid of their top 2 rushers to replace them with a better overall player, but not one that increases the pass rush output and eliminates a chance at elite DB talent in this draft.

 

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

I actually think, if this is the price for Clowney, it's reasonable. A swap of first rounders and a 2020 second rounder isn't crazy. 

 

I know the draft chart isn't the be all end all. But 9 is worth 1350 and 23 is worth 760. The difference is 590. The number 29 pick is worth 640. Buffalo would be 50 points shy here which is the value of a late fourth rounder, and we have two of those. You could also likely work Jerry Hughes into the trade if you really wanted to and recoup some value in draft picks. 

 

I would offer the Texans a swap of ones, a 2020 second rounder, and a 2019 4th. It's a fair deal for both teams and would be the same value that Seattle got for Clark. We would still have nine picks is year. It's a no brainer to me. 

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

51 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

I cant say if this is the right deal, but I do understand what they are doing here.  It’s importantvto note that Clark has been healthy and reliable over the course of his time in the NFL.  Ford has not been.  Had the one really good year in a contract year.  

 

Also, it’s always worth asking, take last years pick 29 and a random late 20s 2nd and find a combo that equals Frank Clark.  It’s hard to do.

 

 

In addition if you kept the picks - you could get your shutdown corner at the end of Round 1 - like a Tre White (several potential picks in this draft).  The end of round 2 is usually a sweet spot for CB depth or Safety help.  Several starters were drafted last year in that area - like Jessie Bates and Jackson.

 

Now maybe neither of them equals Clark to you, but I think that combo helps you win more important games versus good passing teams than Clark does.  

 

You could also go WR as many talented WRs are taken at the end of Rd 2/early rd 3 - just look at Pittsburgh for examples and that could buffer you in case the Hill situation becomes worse and he gets a DV suspension or Sammy is injured again. They could also look at RB to help replace Hunt or LB to help with coverage - especially in nickel that they will be playing a lot.

 

I understand the trade, but they forced themselves into it and I do not think they are a better team right now compared to last year and Clark although an improvement to the current roster is not an improvement compared to the guys he is replacing at significantly more money.

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Zerovoltz]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

But you also would get to keep Ford.  

 

I understand changing scheme, but the Chiefs dumped two older pass rushers this off season that got less money combined than Clark and then gave up a first and a second in a draft this year that is the sweet spot for some top flight DBs - that they actually need to improve the defense.

 

In the end - Clark is the better player and fits their new scheme, but the defense is not as good and you gave up picks that could easily be used to make the defense better.

 

KC created multiple holes on the defense and then traded away multiple picks to fill holes they created and on top of that they way overpaid for a guy that is marginally better than the players they let go.

 

I think their main competition- NE, Indy, Rams, and NO are less worried about KC with Clark because they can use a quick short/intermediate passing game to combat outside pass rush and KC defensive backfield is putrid.  KC is going to pt up points - they need DBs that can actually cover, LBs that will not be exploited, and safeties that are going to be able to handle other teams passing games because they will be in shoot outs.

 

I would have less issues with the trade if the Chiefs were a pass rusher away from being SuperBowl Champs, but they were not.  The pass rush was not the issue - the LBs and DBs were the issue and the team just got rid of their top 2 rushers to replace them with a better overall player, but not one that increases the pass rush output and eliminates a chance at elite DB talent in this draft.

 

 

 

 

Probably the most overlooked aspect of this is health.  You ponited out we let Houston and Ford go....I think you got the money part wrong.  Houston would have cost 21 Million this year, and Ford on a Franchise tag would have been 15.  That's 36 Million.  Anyhow...Ford, Houston (and Eric Berry) have been WAY too unavailable the last few years.  Nothing is guarnateed....Clark could get hurt...but given that Ford and Houston have often been Hurt and Clark hasn't been...is a big factor in all this.

 

I can't stress this enough either...to move up from 29 to say 21 for example, and select Clelin Ferrel..would COST MORE in draft compensation than the trade for proven Clark just did.  KC is in a win now mode.  

 

I see some have suggested that we might be missing out on a good safety or corner at 29......well...of course we COULD be...but frankly, the probability of hitting that isn't very high..especially that far down...At this time in the roster development of Kc....this was the right move.  

 

One more VERY IMPORTANT distinction being missed here...

 

KC had BY FAR the most pass attempts against.  KC tied pittsburg for most sacks in the NFL with 52 each.  The thing no one mentions is that Pittsburg got to 52 in FAR FAR fewer opertunities than KC did....in fact, when you look at Sacks per pass attempt, KC was VERY AVERAGE.  If team A gets to rush the passer 1000 times, and team B only got to rush the passer 500 times...and both end up with 50 sacks..Team B was the better pass rushing team.  Surface stats for Ford and KC's pass rush in general would lead you to believe that the pass rush was elite....it was good..but not elite.  KC's run defense was putrid.  Dee Ford is a putrid run defender....KC is trying to improve the run defense while maintaining a threatening pass rush...this move was made with that in mind.  

[Turk71]

4 hours ago, Bills2ref said:

Even if Clark is double the edge rusher Dee Ford is, I take Ford+ 1st everyday. 

Ford had 13 more QB pressures than Clark with the same amount of sacks. His pass rushing and his overall grade were higher as well.

[whatdrought]

If you’re the chiefs, would you rather have Dee Ford and Byron Murphy, or Frank Clark?

 

seems pretty obvious to me.

[Zerovoltz]

1 hour ago, Turk71 said:

Ford had 13 more QB pressures than Clark with the same amount of sacks. His pass rushing and his overall grade were higher as well.

 

Dee Ford Played 1022 Snaps in 2018.  Clark played 728 Defensive snaps in 2018.  Both had 13 Sacks.  One of them needed over 300 more snaps to get there....Ford also is a liablility against the run.  Ford has been mostly unhealthy during his time in the NFL.  Clark has played in 62/64 games.

 

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

If you’re the chiefs, would you rather have Dee Ford and Byron Murphy, or Frank Clark?

 

seems pretty obvious to me.

 I love draft time.....EVERYONE IS GOOD until you draft them....you say this as if Byron Murphy would be both good and available at 29.  go look at the last 10 drafts and tell me what a surefire hit Murphy is at 29....there are a TON of great players like Corderelle Paterson, and Gabe Carrimi or maybe that household name Kyle Wilson, or Dominque Easley.  ....we could miss out on a talent like ....Phillip Dorsett!  ....at this point...I'll gladly give up the 29th pick and a 2020 2nd for a proven player.

[whatdrought]

5 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

Dee Ford Played 1022 Snaps in 2018.  Clark played 728 Defensive snaps in 2018.  Both had 13 Sacks.  One of them needed over 300 more snaps to get there....Ford also is a liablility against the run.  Ford has been mostly unhealthy during his time in the NFL.  Clark has played in 62/64 games.

 

 I love draft time.....EVERYONE IS GOOD until you draft them....you say this as if Byron Murphy would be both good and available at 29.  go look at the last 10 drafts and tell me what a surefire hit Murphy is at 29....there are a TON of great players like Corderelle Paterson, and Gabe Carrimi or maybe that household name Kyle Wilson, or Dominque Easley.  ....we could miss out on a talent like ....Phillip Dorsett!  ....at this point...I'll gladly give up the 29th pick and a 2020 2nd for a proven player.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

 

 

Yes it's salty, but he has a point. I, however, think giving up this year's first (at 9) would have been a mistake.

 

[whatdrought]

36 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Yes it's salty, but he has a point. I, however, think giving up this year's first (at 9) would have been a mistake.

 

 

I disagree. 

If you see Frank Clark and Dee Ford as a wife difference, then yes. It make sense. I personally don’t. We’ll see how Clark does away from Seattle. That being said, I see it as trading relativity similar players and giving up a first round pick in the process. And the argument that some first round picks don’t make it is stupid.

[Toesy]

Also, the NFL has always been a monkey see monkey do league-so now DE is getting crazy money because other GMs are doing it-so it must make sense right? I mean 21 for Clark would be like maybe 30 for Bruce Smith in his prime-almost Rodgers money. Crazy.