Lost in all the talk of hopes of improved Josh Allen

[John from Riverside]

Our OTHER first round pick of last year.....Edmunds

 

Here is to hoping he is working hard in the offseason to add even some more muscle to that already huge Preditor frame.......we need for him to take another huge leap as well and start blowing guys up like we expected when we were getting this freak of nature.

 

When we got him....they said they were going to "start him off at mlb" lets hope he settles into that spot and plays like a stud game in and game out OR they get smart and draft a MLB to go along with this group.

 

Speaking of which.....does anyone think it would be totally out in left field if they ended up thinking that MLB (white) was the best player available when they pick at 9 or trade down and they slide Tremaine over?

 

- It is Lorax last year

- might be best player available

- Edmunds natural spot my be OLB?

- Gives us 3 legit pass coverage LB's?

[blacklabel]

I said this in a different thread last week but I just can't see them moving Edmunds out of the MLB spot. They didn't spend an entire season coaching him up, teaching him that role and making him the "QB of the defense" just to move him outside the following year. He made steady improvements as the season went on and I don't think they're gonna mess with that, regardless if White is on the board at 9 or not.

[Mark80]

Honestly, short of drafting a QB in round 1, nothing would really surprise me.  If they feel we would be better served with White in MLB and Edmunds at OLB and that is the best player on their board, then I don't think they would hesitate at all to make the pick just because they had him running the defense last year.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by Mark80

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

32 minutes ago, Mark80 said:

Honestly, short of drafting a QB in round 1, nothing would really surprise me.  If they feel we would be better served with White in MLB and Edmunds at OLB and that is the best player on their board, then I don't think they would hesitate at all to make the pick just because they had him running the defense last year.  

 

What does Edmunds bring as a pass rusher?  Usually the SAM rushes a decent amount, and also has to rotate in at DE during some of the nickel packages.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Edmunds, as a rookie mind you and 20 years old, did a very good job IMO as QB of the defense 

keep up the good work and leave the rookie mistakes behind 

[ddaryl]

They want Edmunds to be that sideline to sideline guy in the middle

Edited March 18, 2019 by ddaryl

[MrEpsYtown]

I LOVE Devin White. I really do. The one thing I will say here, is that drafting White, the majority of a game is played in nickel and dime defenses. So that means that Milano, Edmunds, or White would only play about 50% of the defensive snaps. Now you could play a big nickel and use Milano as that nickel guy. Now I liek Milano's coverage ability, but I don't want him matched up in the slot with a reciever. Also, that means that you are essentially taking Taron Johnson off the field. In order to avoid being too long winded, drafting White makes Milano, Edmunds, or White a two down player. Now I do think Edmunds can rush teh passer at the end spot. He was projected to be a 3-4 OLB. If they were going to use Tremaine that way, I'd be for it. 

 

All that said, there is a precedent here. The Panthers drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round when they already had Kuechly and Davis and he was essentially a two down player until last year. It's a nice way to develop a young guy, but I don't love it when you have 3 young studs. 

[eball]

I've mentioned this in other threads, but it appears that Buffalo really knew what they were doing last year.  They knew it was a "lost" season with all of the dead cap and they took the opportunity to draft a "raw" and rare talent like Edmunds and get him a full year of NFL coaching and game speed.  He's still super young, but now, in a season in which the Bills are looking to take a big step forward, he will hit the ground running.

[Codyny13]

He was already much better at the end of the year when he was getting rookie of the month honors. This was a 19 year old kid when he came in to the league, with freakish upside, are we really talking about moving him already ?‍♂️.

[MrEpsYtown]

I just keep coming back to Bob Babich. If Tremaine is the guy he wanted, then I really can't question it. The guys he has developed over the years, including HOF Brian Urlacher is hard to argue with. Plus you have Lance Briggs, Telvin Smith, Denzel Perryman. he also helped Melvin Ingram make huge leaps and strides when he looked like a bust and made Poz into a pretty impressive MIKE. Gotta trust Babich on this one. Add in the Brain Trust of McDermott and Frazier, you basically have like 75 years of coaching experience that hand picked this guy.  

[John from Riverside]

What I am really trying to do is not so much smack Edmunds......I still think this guy could be special....but more going along that "best player available" thing that keeps getting touted.....

 

Is OL best player available at 9?

 

Is Oliver gone by 9?  And if so is he even bpa at 9?

 

I REALLY liked what I saw of Risner as a RT........we hard addressed WR in free agency (we addressed OL heavy as well......but Ty is not a young guy)

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Our OTHER first round pick of last year.....Edmunds

 

Here is to hoping he is working hard in the offseason to add even some more muscle to that already huge Preditor frame.......we need for him to take another huge leap as well and start blowing guys up like we expected when we were getting this freak of nature.

 

When we got him....they said they were going to "start him off at mlb" lets hope he settles into that spot and plays like a stud game in and game out OR they get smart and draft a MLB to go along with this group.

 

Speaking of which.....does anyone think it would be totally out in left field if they ended up thinking that MLB (white) was the best player available when they pick at 9 or trade down and they slide Tremaine over?

 

- It is Lorax last year

- might be best player available

- Edmunds natural spot my be OLB?

- Gives us 3 legit pass coverage LB's?

Been mentioning for weeks.

[ProcessAccepted]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

He struggled.

 

He flashed his potential many times but also flashed awful play. Reminded me of Darron Lee from the Jets a little bit. Was shy from contact too many times, misdiagnosed plays, and dragged for tackles, but good in coverage.

 

Need MUCH more consistency from him if the defense is going to take the next step.

Give the kids a break. There was a lot of youth and inexperience on that D last year. By the end of the season they were playing great ball. We do need more consistency in that we need to leave the guys learn their positions and their responsibilities. If we keep reshuffling there is no consistency just a learning curve. We ended the season with a top ranked D despite getting blown out several times early in the season and an offense that struggled.

[thebandit27]

26 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

What does Edmunds bring as a pass rusher?  Usually the SAM rushes a decent amount, and also has to rotate in at DE during some of the nickel packages.

 

As a scouting friend of mine would say: "the kid's got juice as a pass rusher".  He can definitely get after it.  He's an effective blitzer on his own, but when he's used as a +1 EDGE rusher, he's devastating.  If you can, go back and watch him as a +1 EDGE against Miami in week 17--Gase tried to block him with a TE, and Edmunds had Tannehill on the ground in less than 2.5 seconds.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

As a scouting friend of mine would say: "the kid's got juice as a pass rusher".  He can definitely get after it.  He's an effective blitzer on his own, but when he's used as a +1 EDGE rusher, he's devastating.  If you can, go back and watch him as a +1 EDGE against Miami in week 17--Gase tried to block him with a TE, and Edmunds had Tannehill on the ground in less than 2.5 seconds.

 

Then i wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it.  He's still learning nuances of pro football, but he's got guys like lorax and hughes to kind of help along with the pass rushing maneuvers.  

[wppete]

He is going to come in camp this year bigger, stronger, faster and more mature with a full NFL offseason. Can’t wait to see him out there. 

[ProcessAccepted]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Give the kid a break? 

 

This isnt high school. It's the not for long league.

 

He's got a ton of talent but they need him to be more consistent at diagnosing the play, reacting faster and making the tackle.

 

The defense was slightly above average. For them to be better they need him to be better.

Let's talk at the end of this season. You might even be wearing the kids jersey by then. If you didn't see significant progression from week 1 to week 17 then I don't know what to tell you. He's a kid, 19/20 years old. He's learning, he's going to get bigger, and as he plays more he only going to get better. Try and see the positives sometimes. You may end up being happier ?

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Let's talk at the end of this season. You might even be wearing the kids jersey by then. If you didn't see significant progression from week 1 to week 17 then I don't know what to tell you. He's a kid, 19/20 years old. He's learning, he's going to get bigger, and as he plays more he only going to get better. Try and see the positives sometimes. You may end up being happier ?

This was also a position switch for Edmunds from college correct?

 

 

[sherpa]

I think one of the great benefits to this team was Edmunds going through the year without injury or games missed.

That was one of my hopes going into a year where I thought we had no chance to make the playoffs.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, sherpa said:

I think one of the great benefits to this team was Edmunds going through the year without injury or games missed.

That was one of my hopes going into a year where I thought we had no chance to make the playoffs.

I think he did miss games with a concussion

[ProcessAccepted]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

This was also a position switch for Edmunds from college correct?

Yeah I think he played OLB in college.

 

 

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

I think he did miss games with a concussion

I believe he missed 1 game. 

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Then i wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it.  He's still learning nuances of pro football, but he's got guys like lorax and hughes to kind of help along with the pass rushing maneuvers.  

 

I'm all for it really.  I think that puts him in the best position to make the most game-impacting plays.  Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't use him as an off-ball 'backer too.  In fact, being able to do so can make it easier to disguise the belly of your defense so that QBs will have a harder time centering their protection calls and option routes around a key in the back 7.

[Bing Bong]

He really has a lot of improvement to be desired. Which is understandable.

 

Josh Allen for good reason has us very excited in what we have at that position. I think he honestly exceeded the best of expectations post injury for a rookie quarterback. Edmunds has showed what he's capable of but not so much or as often as JA did. He hasn't exceeded, nor quite met my expectations.

 

All that said, I agree with what people above have mentioned.. He's young, he's been coached to be the lynchpin MLB on defense, was selected to ideally fit McDermott's dream scheme at the position with the ability to cover a ton of ground. He should stay at MLB for at the very least the next year and we should be touch and go from there regarding addressing if he should change positions or is truly fitting the ideal role McDermott envisioned him having.

 

But if we feel a transcendent MLB that can do exactly what McDermott wants falls to the 9th, I'm not opposed at all to having an older, presumably more sure thing that can do everything we expect Edmunds to do. Drafting a player at his age runs a big risk. It just takes so long for him to reach the age typical rookie LBs are at. But this whole "HE'S ONLY 19" argument said ad-nauseum doesn't mean he's guaranteed to improve dramatically into the All-Pro role we're desiring out of him. Mostly just implies high-risk, high-reward. One benefit at his age is he's very much a moldable piece of clay that can be moved to OLB and thrive there should we decide to strike on a BPA that may be MLB at the 9th that perhaps is a better prospect for what McDermott wants. It's fortunate at this point in his career, Edmunds can play a lot of LB roles and is flexible where he is on the field if we want to see him develop elsewhere. 

 

We're not hamstrung by where he can play in the LB corps, which is a good thing.. as there's always going to be phenomenal talent popping up at LB in the draft. And Edmunds' ability to move back to OLB is a good thing, not bad. Just means the risk he carries at not playing the role to McDermott's perfection doesn't limit us from getting that guy and moving Edmunds elsewhere. But again.. I'd prefer him to stay for next year provided we're not passing up on a Kuechly because we're insistent Edmunds plays MLB. All-Pro OLBs are awesome! 

[Punching Bag]

20 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Yeah I think he played OLB in college.

 

 

I believe he missed 1 game. 

 

He missed week 9.

 

Regular Season

											Tackles					Def Interceptions				Fumbles
Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Sk	Solo	Ast	Comb	TFL	QBHits	Int	Yds	TD	PD	Fmb	FF	FR	Yds	TD
		15 Games						6-9-0		2.0	80	41	121	5	7	2	19	0	12	0	2	0	0	0
1	2018	2018-09-09	1	20.130	BUF	@	BAL	L 3-47	*	1.0	3	4	7	0	1	0	0	0	2	0	1	0	0	0
2	2018	2018-09-16	2	20.137	BUF		LAC	L 20-31	*	0.0	6	1	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
3	2018	2018-09-23	3	20.144	BUF	@	MIN	W 27-6	*	0.0	7	3	10	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
4	2018	2018-09-30	4	20.151	BUF	@	GNB	L 0-22	*	0.0	5	1	6	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
5	2018	2018-10-07	5	20.158	BUF		TEN	W 13-12	*	0.0	4	4	8	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	0
6	2018	2018-10-14	6	20.165	BUF	@	HOU	L 13-20	*	0.0	7	2	9	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
7	2018	2018-10-21	7	20.172	BUF	@	IND	L 5-37	*	0.0	7	0	7	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
8	2018	2018-10-29	8	20.180	BUF		NWE	L 6-25	*	0.0	6	2	8	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
9	2018	2018-11-11	10	20.193	BUF	@	NYJ	W 41-10	*	0.0	4	4	8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
10	2018	2018-11-25	11	20.207	BUF		JAX	W 24-21	*	0.0	7	1	8	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
11	2018	2018-12-02	12	20.214	BUF	@	MIA	L 17-21	*	0.0	0	4	4	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
12	2018	2018-12-09	13	20.221	BUF		NYJ	L 23-27	*	0.0	5	3	8	1	0	1	2	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
13	2018	2018-12-16	14	20.228	BUF		DET	W 14-13	*	0.0	5	3	8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
14	2018	2018-12-23	15	20.235	BUF	@	NWE	L 12-24	*	0.0	3	8	11	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
15	2018	2018-12-30	16	20.242	BUF		MIA	W 42-17	*	1.0	11	1	12	1	1	1	17	0	1	0	0	0	0	0

Edited March 18, 2019 by Limeaid

[RyanC883]

If White is available at #9, you either: (a) draft him; (b) start taking calls from teams like PGH to trade down and get more picks.  Then get someone like DL Simmons and Hock/Faint in the 1st (trading back in).  White would be the BPA at 9 (likely Oliver is gone if White is there, IMO).  

[mjt328]

The two defensive players who get the most criticism from Bills fans are Tremaine Edmunds and Star Lotulelei.

To me, I think their success ties in together.

 

Edmunds may never be the type of MLB that can consistently shed O-Line blocks in the hole and knock the runner backwards.  His game is going to be the sideline-to-sideline pursuit with speed and quickness.  As he improves in coverage, he's going to be a huge asset in defending the short passing game as well. 

 

That's why it's vitally important to have a player like Lotulelei, who occupies the blockers, takes on double-teams and allows Edmunds and Matt Milano to make the tackles without trying to fight off Guards and Centers.

[Jobot]

I don't claim to be an expert assessing the college talent.. But I would think this would never happen unless Bean thinks there is a monstrous delta between White and next best players on the draft board...  He may be best available, but is he rank of 9.8, while there's a 9.7 in a position that better fills a need?  Blindly taking best available player ends IMO before pick-9 most of the time.

[Teddy KGB]

Now the jfh optimist jinx will kill Edmunds 

[Misterbluesky]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

What I am really trying to do is not so much smack Edmunds......I still think this guy could be special....but more going along that "best player available" thing that keeps getting touted.....

 

 

He absolutely got his ass handed to him in Indianapolis...McDermott should have yanked him instead of hanging him out to dry.I think it was GunnerBill who said he over pursued in college and tends to drift out of place...he did that last year here to.

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I LOVE Devin White. I really do. The one thing I will say here, is that drafting White, the majority of a game is played in nickel and dime defenses. So that means that Milano, Edmunds, or White would only play about 50% of the defensive snaps. Now you could play a big nickel and use Milano as that nickel guy. Now I liek Milano's coverage ability, but I don't want him matched up in the slot with a reciever. Also, that means that you are essentially taking Taron Johnson off the field. In order to avoid being too long winded, drafting White makes Milano, Edmunds, or White a two down player. Now I do think Edmunds can rush teh passer at the end spot. He was projected to be a 3-4 OLB. If they were going to use Tremaine that way, I'd be for it. 

 

All that said, there is a precedent here. The Panthers drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round when they already had Kuechly and Davis and he was essentially a two down player until last year. It's a nice way to develop a young guy, but I don't love it when you have 3 young studs. 

This post perfectly summarizes the lack of interest I had in seeing the Bills pay Barr big dollars.

Edited March 18, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I’d speculate they draft a linebacker in the 3-5 rds.

 

With 9 I’m guessing an Edge, DT, CB, TE trade back, o line, or WR...   

Edited March 18, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood
Added TE

[Bob in NoCal]

16 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’d speculate they draft a linebacker in the 3-5 rds.

 

With 9 I’m guessing an Edge, DT, CB, trade back, o line, or WR...   

 You left out the one position that they could very well be picking at 9: tight end.  Namely; Hockenson. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bob in NoCal

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, Bob in NoCal said:

 You left out the one position that they could very well be picking at 9: tight end.  Namely; Hockenson. 

 

TE should be there too. You’re right 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just keep coming back to Bob Babich. If Tremaine is the guy he wanted, then I really can't question it. The guys he has developed over the years, including HOF Brian Urlacher is hard to argue with. Plus you have Lance Briggs, Telvin Smith, Denzel Perryman. he also helped Melvin Ingram make huge leaps and strides when he looked like a bust and made Poz into a pretty impressive MIKE. Gotta trust Babich on this one. Add in the Brain Trust of McDermott and Frazier, you basically have like 75 years of coaching experience that hand picked this guy.  

 

I respect Babich and if Edmunds can be coached up to the point where he *looks* instinctive to match his other skills.........Babich is one of the guys who could do it.

 

But most of those guys you mentioned always seemed much more innate.    Urlacher, for instance,  was almost as good as he would ever get already when he was a rookie..........and that was transitioning from being a college safety.

 

Edmunds just lacks an innate eye for the play.......an ability to subconsciously recognize things that the great ones have at the position.   Good runners and chasers usually share certain traits and abilities that Edmunds seems short on.   We've seen cases of this improving but it's not THAT common.  Additionally his build makes it difficult to get low and narrow thru the hole and he's a huge target for blockers.   He's already missed time with concussion issues as a pro as well.    There are reasons to wonder.  

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

As a scouting friend of mine would say: "the kid's got juice as a pass rusher".  He can definitely get after it.  He's an effective blitzer on his own, but when he's used as a +1 EDGE rusher, he's devastating.  If you can, go back and watch him as a +1 EDGE against Miami in week 17--Gase tried to block him with a TE, and Edmunds had Tannehill on the ground in less than 2.5 seconds.

 

I think it's definitely his best fit.

 

I also don't think you need to use a 1st round pick on a MLB.   

 

My guess is that he stays there this season at least.    He's still going to make big plays if nothing else.

 

If he gets injured and athletically talented journeyman Julian Stanford steps in and proves more efficient on the basics......as he did in Edmunds absence in 2018........ then maybe the Bills get serious about moving Edmunds to the edge.

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I LOVE Devin White. I really do. The one thing I will say here, is that drafting White, the majority of a game is played in nickel and dime defenses. So that means that Milano, Edmunds, or White would only play about 50% of the defensive snaps. Now you could play a big nickel and use Milano as that nickel guy. Now I liek Milano's coverage ability, but I don't want him matched up in the slot with a reciever. Also, that means that you are essentially taking Taron Johnson off the field. In order to avoid being too long winded, drafting White makes Milano, Edmunds, or White a two down player. Now I do think Edmunds can rush teh passer at the end spot. He was projected to be a 3-4 OLB. If they were going to use Tremaine that way, I'd be for it. 

 

All that said, there is a precedent here. The Panthers drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round when they already had Kuechly and Davis and he was essentially a two down player until last year. It's a nice way to develop a young guy, but I don't love it when you have 3 young studs. 

 

 

Assuming Edmunds stays in the middle it seems to me that they should address the OLB's spots accordingly:

 

SLB  veteran FA

WLB mid-rounds draft

 

They really need someone who has a chance to develop into a long term option behind Milano at WLB because Milano has had injury issues..........and Lorax isn't a great candidate to fill in over there in the short term.

 

The SLB would in theory always be the part time guy in this defense so just keep addressing it with vets if possible.

 

[Reed83HOF]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I think it's definitely his best fit.

 

I also don't think you need to use a 1st round pick on a MLB.   

 

My guess is that he stays there this season at least.    He's still going to make big plays if nothing else.

 

If he gets injured and athletically talented journeyman Julian Stanford steps in and proves more efficient on the basics......as he did in Edmunds absence in 2018........ then maybe the Bills get serious about moving Edmunds to the edge.

 

Is this the creative solution that was on here a week or so ago?

[formerlyofCtown]

14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Give the kid a break? 

 

This isnt high school. It's the not for long league.

 

He's got a ton of talent but they need him to be more consistent at diagnosing the play, reacting faster and making the tackle.

 

The defense was slightly above average. For them to be better they need him to be better.

Slightly above average?  Thats an interesting take.  Though I dont look at our D as #2 in the league they were definitely top 10 and legitimately #1 against the pass.

[badassgixxer05]

If white is there at 9, I think you have to take him. Even if Oliver is there. This guy is legit top 5 lb in the league the day he steps on the field. Him and Edmonds could dominate for quite some time next to each other. Both can play anywhere on the field and mcD likes that *****.

[oldmanfan]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I respect Babich and if Edmunds can be coached up to the point where he *looks* instinctive to match his other skills.........Babich is one of the guys who could do it.

 

But most of those guys you mentioned always seemed much more innate.    Urlacher, for instance,  was almost as good as he would ever get already when he was a rookie..........and that was transitioning from being a college safety.

 

Edmunds just lacks an innate eye for the play.......an ability to subconsciously recognize things that the great ones have at the position.   Good runners and chasers usually share certain traits and abilities that Edmunds seems short on.   We've seen cases of this improving but it's not THAT common.  Additionally his build makes it difficult to get low and narrow thru the hole and he's a huge target for blockers.   He's already missed time with concussion issues as a pro as well.    There are reasons to wonder.  

Answer this question for me.  Do players ever improve with experience in the league, or do they never improve over what they do as rookies?

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Answer this question for me.  Do players ever improve with experience in the league, or do they never improve over what they do as rookies?

 

As I said in the post you responded too..............."We've seen cases of this(MLB "instinctive" response) improving but it's not THAT common".

 

But even that significant concern isn't the ONLY concern with Edmunds at MLB.

 

He might just be a player who is worth more on the edge...........where his instincts are less important........where he has less field to cover.........where he isn't ramming heads with powerfully built RB's that have a significant leverage advantage on him.