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John from Riverside

Lost in all the talk of hopes of improved Josh Allen

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Yeah I think he played OLB in college.

 

 

I believe he missed 1 game. 

 

He missed week 9.

 

Regular Season

      Tackles Def Interceptions Fumbles
Rk Year Date G# Age Tm   Opp Result GS Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits Int Yds TD PD Fmb FF FR Yds TD
    15 Games           6-9-0   2.0 80 41 121 5 7 2 19 0 12 0 2 0 0 0
1 2018 2018-09-09 1 20.130 BUF @ BAL L 3-47 * 1.0 3 4 7 0 1 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 0
2 2018 2018-09-16 2 20.137 BUF   LAC L 20-31 * 0.0 6 1 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3 2018 2018-09-23 3 20.144 BUF @ MIN W 27-6 * 0.0 7 3 10 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
4 2018 2018-09-30 4 20.151 BUF @ GNB L 0-22 * 0.0 5 1 6 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
5 2018 2018-10-07 5 20.158 BUF   TEN W 13-12 * 0.0 4 4 8 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
6 2018 2018-10-14 6 20.165 BUF @ HOU L 13-20 * 0.0 7 2 9 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
7 2018 2018-10-21 7 20.172 BUF @ IND L 5-37 * 0.0 7 0 7 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
8 2018 2018-10-29 8 20.180 BUF   NWE L 6-25 * 0.0 6 2 8 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
9 2018 2018-11-11 10 20.193 BUF @ NYJ W 41-10 * 0.0 4 4 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10 2018 2018-11-25 11 20.207 BUF   JAX W 24-21 * 0.0 7 1 8 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
11 2018 2018-12-02 12 20.214 BUF @ MIA L 17-21 * 0.0 0 4 4 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
12 2018 2018-12-09 13 20.221 BUF   NYJ L 23-27 * 0.0 5 3 8 1 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
13 2018 2018-12-16 14 20.228 BUF   DET W 14-13 * 0.0 5 3 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
14 2018 2018-12-23 15 20.235 BUF @ NWE L 12-24 * 0.0 3 8 11 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
15 2018 2018-12-30 16 20.242 BUF   MIA W 42-17 * 1.0 11 1 12 1 1 1 17 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Edited by Limeaid

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If White is available at #9, you either: (a) draft him; (b) start taking calls from teams like PGH to trade down and get more picks.  Then get someone like DL Simmons and Hock/Faint in the 1st (trading back in).  White would be the BPA at 9 (likely Oliver is gone if White is there, IMO).  

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The two defensive players who get the most criticism from Bills fans are Tremaine Edmunds and Star Lotulelei.

To me, I think their success ties in together.

 

Edmunds may never be the type of MLB that can consistently shed O-Line blocks in the hole and knock the runner backwards.  His game is going to be the sideline-to-sideline pursuit with speed and quickness.  As he improves in coverage, he's going to be a huge asset in defending the short passing game as well. 

 

That's why it's vitally important to have a player like Lotulelei, who occupies the blockers, takes on double-teams and allows Edmunds and Matt Milano to make the tackles without trying to fight off Guards and Centers.

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I don't claim to be an expert assessing the college talent.. But I would think this would never happen unless Bean thinks there is a monstrous delta between White and next best players on the draft board...  He may be best available, but is he rank of 9.8, while there's a 9.7 in a position that better fills a need?  Blindly taking best available player ends IMO before pick-9 most of the time.

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1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

What I am really trying to do is not so much smack Edmunds......I still think this guy could be special....but more going along that "best player available" thing that keeps getting touted.....

 

 

He absolutely got his ass handed to him in Indianapolis...McDermott should have yanked him instead of hanging him out to dry.I think it was GunnerBill who said he over pursued in college and tends to drift out of place...he did that last year here to.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I LOVE Devin White. I really do. The one thing I will say here, is that drafting White, the majority of a game is played in nickel and dime defenses. So that means that Milano, Edmunds, or White would only play about 50% of the defensive snaps. Now you could play a big nickel and use Milano as that nickel guy. Now I liek Milano's coverage ability, but I don't want him matched up in the slot with a reciever. Also, that means that you are essentially taking Taron Johnson off the field. In order to avoid being too long winded, drafting White makes Milano, Edmunds, or White a two down player. Now I do think Edmunds can rush teh passer at the end spot. He was projected to be a 3-4 OLB. If they were going to use Tremaine that way, I'd be for it. 

 

All that said, there is a precedent here. The Panthers drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round when they already had Kuechly and Davis and he was essentially a two down player until last year. It's a nice way to develop a young guy, but I don't love it when you have 3 young studs. 

This post perfectly summarizes the lack of interest I had in seeing the Bills pay Barr big dollars.

Edited by LSHMEAB
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Posted (edited)

I’d speculate they draft a linebacker in the 3-5 rds.

 

With 9 I’m guessing an Edge, DT, CB, TE trade back, o line, or WR...   

Edited by Over 29 years of fanhood
Added TE

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’d speculate they draft a linebacker in the 3-5 rds.

 

With 9 I’m guessing an Edge, DT, CB, trade back, o line, or WR...   

 You left out the one position that they could very well be picking at 9: tight end.  Namely; Hockenson. 

Edited by Bob in NoCal

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3 minutes ago, Bob in NoCal said:

 You left out the one position that they could very well be picking at 9: tight end.  Namely; Hockenson. 

 

TE should be there too. You’re right 

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2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just keep coming back to Bob Babich. If Tremaine is the guy he wanted, then I really can't question it. The guys he has developed over the years, including HOF Brian Urlacher is hard to argue with. Plus you have Lance Briggs, Telvin Smith, Denzel Perryman. he also helped Melvin Ingram make huge leaps and strides when he looked like a bust and made Poz into a pretty impressive MIKE. Gotta trust Babich on this one. Add in the Brain Trust of McDermott and Frazier, you basically have like 75 years of coaching experience that hand picked this guy.  

 

I respect Babich and if Edmunds can be coached up to the point where he *looks* instinctive to match his other skills.........Babich is one of the guys who could do it.

 

But most of those guys you mentioned always seemed much more innate.    Urlacher, for instance,  was almost as good as he would ever get already when he was a rookie..........and that was transitioning from being a college safety.

 

Edmunds just lacks an innate eye for the play.......an ability to subconsciously recognize things that the great ones have at the position.   Good runners and chasers usually share certain traits and abilities that Edmunds seems short on.   We've seen cases of this improving but it's not THAT common.  Additionally his build makes it difficult to get low and narrow thru the hole and he's a huge target for blockers.   He's already missed time with concussion issues as a pro as well.    There are reasons to wonder.  

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2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

As a scouting friend of mine would say: "the kid's got juice as a pass rusher".  He can definitely get after it.  He's an effective blitzer on his own, but when he's used as a +1 EDGE rusher, he's devastating.  If you can, go back and watch him as a +1 EDGE against Miami in week 17--Gase tried to block him with a TE, and Edmunds had Tannehill on the ground in less than 2.5 seconds.

 

I think it's definitely his best fit.

 

I also don't think you need to use a 1st round pick on a MLB.   

 

My guess is that he stays there this season at least.    He's still going to make big plays if nothing else.

 

If he gets injured and athletically talented journeyman Julian Stanford steps in and proves more efficient on the basics......as he did in Edmunds absence in 2018........ then maybe the Bills get serious about moving Edmunds to the edge.

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I LOVE Devin White. I really do. The one thing I will say here, is that drafting White, the majority of a game is played in nickel and dime defenses. So that means that Milano, Edmunds, or White would only play about 50% of the defensive snaps. Now you could play a big nickel and use Milano as that nickel guy. Now I liek Milano's coverage ability, but I don't want him matched up in the slot with a reciever. Also, that means that you are essentially taking Taron Johnson off the field. In order to avoid being too long winded, drafting White makes Milano, Edmunds, or White a two down player. Now I do think Edmunds can rush teh passer at the end spot. He was projected to be a 3-4 OLB. If they were going to use Tremaine that way, I'd be for it. 

 

All that said, there is a precedent here. The Panthers drafted Shaq Thompson in the first round when they already had Kuechly and Davis and he was essentially a two down player until last year. It's a nice way to develop a young guy, but I don't love it when you have 3 young studs. 

 

 

Assuming Edmunds stays in the middle it seems to me that they should address the OLB's spots accordingly:

 

SLB  veteran FA

WLB mid-rounds draft

 

They really need someone who has a chance to develop into a long term option behind Milano at WLB because Milano has had injury issues..........and Lorax isn't a great candidate to fill in over there in the short term.

 

The SLB would in theory always be the part time guy in this defense so just keep addressing it with vets if possible.

 

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6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I think it's definitely his best fit.

 

I also don't think you need to use a 1st round pick on a MLB.   

 

My guess is that he stays there this season at least.    He's still going to make big plays if nothing else.

 

If he gets injured and athletically talented journeyman Julian Stanford steps in and proves more efficient on the basics......as he did in Edmunds absence in 2018........ then maybe the Bills get serious about moving Edmunds to the edge.

 

Is this the creative solution that was on here a week or so ago?

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14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Give the kid a break? 

 

This isnt high school. It's the not for long league.

 

He's got a ton of talent but they need him to be more consistent at diagnosing the play, reacting faster and making the tackle.

 

The defense was slightly above average. For them to be better they need him to be better.

Slightly above average?  Thats an interesting take.  Though I dont look at our D as #2 in the league they were definitely top 10 and legitimately #1 against the pass.

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If white is there at 9, I think you have to take him. Even if Oliver is there. This guy is legit top 5 lb in the league the day he steps on the field. Him and Edmonds could dominate for quite some time next to each other. Both can play anywhere on the field and mcD likes that *****.

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15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I respect Babich and if Edmunds can be coached up to the point where he *looks* instinctive to match his other skills.........Babich is one of the guys who could do it.

 

But most of those guys you mentioned always seemed much more innate.    Urlacher, for instance,  was almost as good as he would ever get already when he was a rookie..........and that was transitioning from being a college safety.

 

Edmunds just lacks an innate eye for the play.......an ability to subconsciously recognize things that the great ones have at the position.   Good runners and chasers usually share certain traits and abilities that Edmunds seems short on.   We've seen cases of this improving but it's not THAT common.  Additionally his build makes it difficult to get low and narrow thru the hole and he's a huge target for blockers.   He's already missed time with concussion issues as a pro as well.    There are reasons to wonder.  

Answer this question for me.  Do players ever improve with experience in the league, or do they never improve over what they do as rookies?

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49 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Answer this question for me.  Do players ever improve with experience in the league, or do they never improve over what they do as rookies?

 

As I said in the post you responded too..............."We've seen cases of this(MLB "instinctive" response) improving but it's not THAT common".

 

But even that significant concern isn't the ONLY concern with Edmunds at MLB.

 

He might just be a player who is worth more on the edge...........where his instincts are less important........where he has less field to cover.........where he isn't ramming heads with powerfully built RB's that have a significant leverage advantage on him.

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He doesn't even look comfortable in his body yet. Another year in the system and a full offseason I expect to see a better Edmunds next year and he was coming on towards the end of the season.

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Good organizations are always looking to improve any and all positions. 

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Never say never to a highly rated player becoming a draft pick for a particular team.  I don't think White is the  most likely pick for the Bills, but I can't completely rule it out because I don't think Beane has.

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He ended the year playing his best game in week 17 imo. Hope that momentum carries to the off-season.  Has the Upside to be an AllPro 

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