Who would you take, D. K. or T. J.?

[NewEraBills]

17 minutes ago, stosh64 said:

Who mentioned he can only run 9 routes?

I must have missed it.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood "having him run in a straight line"

 

?‍♂️

[Misterbluesky]

4 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Assuming the Bills either stay put at 9 or trade down a few spots, who would you want?

Taylor-T Florida

[JM57]

3 hours ago, buffalostu2 said:

A lot of shots at DK's workout.  How about TJs?  4.7 in the 40 with build up speed?  Remember he will never be faster than right now.   

 

After a few weeks of NFL games getting knocked around in the trenches are you OK with a high pick TE running a 4.9 or 5.0 in games?  Will that get open?

 

Personally I would use the training staff to get DK more flexible - yoga, pilates, stretched, and pool work .  I'll take my chances on the upside of size, speed and hands.   

Who will run 40 yards more often, the WR or the TE? 4.7 for a TE is still above average (68th percentile). More important drills for TE are bench press for upper body strength, the broad jump and vertical jump for lower body strength and explosiveness, or shuttle and 3 cone for agility and change of direction (aka route running)

 

Hockenson was above average in all of those categories except bench press where he disappointed, scoring in the 21st percentile.

 

I'm not entirely against Metcalf, but his agility drills weren't just below average, they were literally bottom of the barrel. 3rd percentile.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by JM57

[whatdrought]

The biggest issue that I see with the Metcalf hype isn't his poor agility times- it's that he had such poor agility times versus such strong 40 and jump measurements. 

 

The jumps and the 40 are important because they show how much raw athleticism is there. 

 

The agility tests are important because they demonstrate how that athleticism is funneled into the whole player.

 

The slow agility times take away from the big showings in the jumps and the 40 because it opens the door to the question of whether or not he just trained really hard for those drills to make a splash. It isn't to say that there is no chance he turns out to be a stud, or that his agility is a huge deal, but rather it begs the question. It casts a cloud over his whole combine performance, in my opinion. 

[Doc Brown]

Tight ends usually don't get drafted that high and with good reason.  The last five (Ebron, Davis, Winslow, Dudley, K. Brady.) weren't worth the pick.  Metcalf has too many question marks to go that high, but I'd choose him over a tight end.  His potential is just off the charts.

[NewEra]

Tj

[billsbackto81]

I'd take Hock if I'd have to take one at 9.

 

Much more WR talent to be had than TE. 

 

Hock has " sure fire" stud written all over him. Metcalf though a physical freak has red flags and a small body of college production.

[Reed83HOF]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Tj

I like Fant too!

 

“We're looking for guys that can get open and catch the ball,” McDermott said. “I know it should go without saying but it's not making more complicated than it is. At the end of the day, a wide receiver’s job is to get open and catch the football.”

Edited March 4, 2019 by Reed83HOF

[MJS]

Either would be fine after a hefty trade down.

[NewEra]

27 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I like Fant too!

 

“We're looking for guys that can get open and catch the ball,” McDermott said. “I know it should go without saying but it's not making more complicated than it is. At the end of the day, a wide receiver’s job is to get open and catch the football.”

I do too, but I prefer Hockenson.  By far actually.  I almost see him as twice as good because of his blocking ability.  When you can find a TE that loves blocking and blocks well paired with him running ability and hands, sign me up.  

 

Fant looks good, but I just think he’s a liability as a blocker and I’m worried that he’s not a true hands guy.  We have josh Allen.  We need hands guys.  He’s a talent though and can really stretch the field.  

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

At 9? Neither.

 

He didn’t really ask if you wanted them at 9.  He said 9 was too early.  He basically just wants to know, which one you would take if you had to choose between the two.

 

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

OL, DL or Devin White. Period

[Reed83HOF]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

I do too, but I prefer Hockenson.  By far actually.  I almost see him as twice as good because of his blocking ability.  When you can find a TE that loves blocking and blocks well paired with him running ability and hands, sign me up.  

 

Fant looks good, but I just think he’s a liability as a blocker and I’m worried that he’s not a true hands guy.  We have josh Allen.  We need hands guys.  He’s a talent though and can really stretch the field.  

 

I don't disagree with any of this btw. I think it is is the best of both worlds, he is out there to block and he also could be a receiver, unlike when you have a blocking TE and another guy who is your receiver TE, it kinda telegraphs what you are trying to do. Also he can help keep Allen upright which is a huge plus

[GreggTX]

Hockenson can catch, run and block. He's not going to blow you away with speed, but he still has the tools to be an effective weapon for Allen. Additionally, I think that getting the ground attack going again should be a top priority and that starts up front. We're not going to win a lot of games with Josh Allen throwing the ball more than 30 times. We've got to be able to pound the rock.

[NewEra]

9 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I don't disagree with any of this btw. I think it is is the best of both worlds, he is out there to block and he also could be a receiver, unlike when you have a blocking TE and another guy who is your receiver TE, it kinda telegraphs what you are trying to do. Also he can help keep Allen upright which is a huge plus

I almost view hockenson as can’t miss if he’s healthy.  He’s always going to be an asset.  Might not be worthy of #9, but he’s gonna be productive 

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, NewEra said:

I almost view hockenson as can’t miss if he’s healthy.  He’s always going to be an asset.  Might not be worthy of #9, but he’s gonna be productive 

If QBs do indeed get pushed up the board, it is going to be hard to pass on (I'm stealing this from Bandit btw) chossing between a couple of these guys
 

Nick Bosa

Quinnen Williams

Josh Allen

Josh Jacobs

Ed Oliver

Christian Wilkins

Jawaan Taylor

Rashan Gary

Devin White

Jeffrey Simmons

TJ Hockenson

 

Each of these players is better than Metcalf and I agree with Bandit that Simmons just doesn't seem like a process guy off the field. And if Bosa or Allen or in the impossible event that Both of them are there, get them both!

[LABILLBACKER]

I'd take TJ but only on a trade down. DK's 3 cone killed him. I think we're going edge rusher or OL.

[NewEra]

39 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

If QBs do indeed get pushed up the board, it is going to be hard to pass on (I'm stealing this from Bandit btw) chossing between a couple of these guys
 

Nick Bosa

Quinnen Williams

Josh Allen

Josh Jacobs

Ed Oliver

Christian Wilkins

Jawaan Taylor

Rashan Gary

Devin White

Jeffrey Simmons

TJ Hockenson

 

Each of these players is better than Metcalf and I agree with Bandit that Simmons just doesn't seem like a process guy off the field. And if Bosa or Allen or in the impossible event that Both of them are there, get them both!

Yeah that’s exactly where I’m at.  I hadn’t seen Jacobs name in the mix, but that’s my guy. I just don’t see us taking him at 9.

 

Wilkins is the guy that I’m torn on.  Great player I just don’t know if I’d be happy with him at 9.  Gary is looking to make more sense if he’s available at 9, but I just don’t like the guy.  I don’t think he’s worth 9.  White is tremendous.  I don’t think he’ll be there.  

 

Oliver and Taylor are my favorites for the pick. 

 

Bosa, Allen and quinnen won’t be there and Simmons was probably never on our board after they saw that video.

 

 

......now I’m thinking.  If BPA is the route, is Josh Jacobs in play at 9?  What if we can’t trade down and we have to stick to our board and JJ is that guy.  

[Pete]

at 9 I am ok with Hockinson, Bosa, Oliver, Josh, Williams or White.  If it's not one of those 5- trade down!

[Reed83HOF]

19 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Yeah that’s exactly where I’m at.  I hadn’t seen Jacobs name in the mix, but that’s my guy. I just don’t see us taking him at 9.

 

Wilkins is the guy that I’m torn on.  Great player I just don’t know if I’d be happy with him at 9.  Gary is looking to make more sense if he’s available at 9, but I just don’t like the guy.  I don’t think he’s worth 9.  White is tremendous.  I don’t think he’ll be there.  

 

Oliver and Taylor are my favorites for the pick. 

 

Bosa, Allen and quinnen won’t be there and Simmons was probably never on our board after they saw that video.

 

 

......now I’m thinking.  If BPA is the route, is Josh Jacobs in play at 9?  What if we can’t trade down and we have to stick to our board and JJ is that guy.  

 

I am not in love with an RB @9, but if he is BPA and we can get what 7-8 years out of him; I think I am okay with that.  A dynamic RB with Allen as a pass/run threat isn't a bad thing at all. I think I would be more okay with this than reaching. I am not sure I would take him over TJ since I think finding a TE is more difficult.

 

 

[bobs0108]

I would rather have TJ with a trade down to somewhere like 20 but if staying at 9 I’m taking DK. 

[Yav]

5 hours ago, buffalostu2 said:

A lot of shots at DK's workout.  How about TJs?  4.7 in the 40 with build up speed?  Remember he will never be faster than right now.   

 

After a few weeks of NFL games getting knocked around in the trenches are you OK with a high pick TE running a 4.9 or 5.0 in games?  Will that get open?

 

Personally I would use the training staff to get DK more flexible - yoga, pilates, stretched, and pool work .  I'll take my chances on the upside of size, speed and hands.   

I’m confused. I get the size and speed but hands? Is the trading staff going to give him a hand transplant? 

 

Enter N’Keal Harry. Mad YAC skills, great hands, better route runner, 4.5 40, 6’3” and 27 reps on the bench. Oh and he can contribute on returns. 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

If QBs do indeed get pushed up the board, it is going to be hard to pass on (I'm stealing this from Bandit btw) chossing between a couple of these guys
 

Nick Bosa

Quinnen Williams

Josh Allen

Josh Jacobs

Ed Oliver

Christian Wilkins

Jawaan Taylor

Rashan Gary

Devin White

Jeffrey Simmons

TJ Hockenson

 

Each of these players is better than Metcalf and I agree with Bandit that Simmons just doesn't seem like a process guy off the field. And if Bosa or Allen or in the impossible event that Both of them are there, get them both!

 

While we are throwing opinions out as fact Metcalf will be one of the top 5 receivers in the league within 3 years if not sooner. 

 

Even if his cone numbers mean he literally can only run one direction I’m ok with that. (But I think that’s oberblown) 

 

How often did Calvin Johnson or Randy moss just run straight knowing their speed and size were enough bc there just isn’t anyone on the defense with the combo to match?

 

And Im not buying a Stephen Hill or Heyward Bey comparison retort because D.K. was considered a top WR prospect since before this season maybe longer for reasons other than elite athleticism. Those guys only flew up draft boards last minute due to workouts. 

[Wagon Circler]

7 hours ago, whatdrought said:

I wouldn’t love either at 9, but is take TJ first for 3 reasons.

 

1- helps the run game and the pass game.

 

2- the drop from a TJ to a Kaden Smith in the second round, vs the drop from a Metcalf to a Deboo Samuel etc is more problematic for me.

 

3- the agility times on Metcalf are scary for many reasons most of which (which is widely ignored around here) is that it shows that he dedicated all of his time to getting fast on the 40 and getting big on the bench. He’s tight. Hes not a fluid athlete right now. He’s a big, fast, strong guy who can do certain things well but who is not a wholistically athletic person. He’s not a “freak” imo because he didn’t perform well across the board. Guys dominate the big show events at the combine all the time only to show that they can’t play football.

Metcalf had 67 career catches. I'm a Harry guy (heh heh).  Meanwhile Kaden Smith can play. Arciaga-Whiteside is an interesting day two pick.

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

 

While we are throwing opinions out as fact Metcalf will be one of the top 5 receivers in the league within 3 years if not sooner. 

 

Even if his cone numbers mean he literally can only run one direction I’m ok with that. (But I think that’s oberblown) 

 

How often did Calvin Johnson or Randy moss just run straight knowing their speed and size were enough bc there just isn’t anyone on the defense with the combo to match?

 

And Im not buying a Stephen Hill or Heyward Bey comparison retort because D.K. was considered a top WR prospect since before this season maybe longer for reasons other than elite athleticism. Those guys only flew up draft boards last minute due to workouts. 

 

He has the agility of Tom Brady. Ha Randy Moss & Calvin Johnson!

[Peace Frog]

My take is that there are a lot of good receiver candidates in this draft but only a few good tight ends.  Ideally, I'd like us to trade back with Washington at 15 and grab T.J. there.  Hopefully, Green Bay doesn't get him at 12.

[GimmeSomeProcess]

I voted for TJ but prefer Jonah/Taykor/Sweat/Oliver. Then snag Butler/Jaws/Harry/Campbell in the 2nd.

[buffalostu2]

21 hours ago, Yav said:

I’m confused. I get the size and speed but hands? Is the trading staff going to give him a hand transplant? 

 

Enter N’Keal Harry. Mad YAC skills, great hands, better route runner, 4.5 40, 6’3” and 27 reps on the bench. Oh and he can contribute on returns. 

 

No fair, the question was DK or TJ.   I like Harry better too - he reminds me of Tim Brown the way he runs after the catch.   

 

You are correct hands are not something the training staff can necessarily improve.  I think Metcalf has pretty good hands though from what I have seen on tape.  I was just saying I would select DK over TJ and then go to work on his flexibility.   

 

Since you brought up Harry, I think the selection between he and DK will come down to mental makeup.     

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 3/4/2019 at 12:06 PM, buffalostu2 said:

A lot of shots at DK's workout.  How about TJs?  4.7 in the 40 with build up speed?  Remember he will never be faster than right now.   

 

After a few weeks of NFL games getting knocked around in the trenches are you OK with a high pick TE running a 4.9 or 5.0 in games?  Will that get open?

 

Personally I would use the training staff to get DK more flexible - yoga, pilates, stretched, and pool work .  I'll take my chances on the upside of size, speed and hands.   

 

I dunno - Witten wasn't very fast and what'd he catch like a thousand passes? Same goes for Kelce and Gronk - None of these guys runs faster than 4.7.

[Ramza86]

Can I pass the pick?

[Yav]

23 hours ago, buffalostu2 said:

 

No fair, the question was DK or TJ.   I like Harry better too - he reminds me of Tim Brown the way he runs after the catch.   

 

You are correct hands are not something the training staff can necessarily improve.  I think Metcalf has pretty good hands though from what I have seen on tape.  I was just saying I would select DK over TJ and then go to work on his flexibility.   

 

Since you brought up Harry, I think the selection between he and DK will come down to mental makeup.     

I get it, if I have to pick between the two ... I'd pick TJ. I honestly believe DK will be a PED problem. Ol Miss has a reputation with PED abuse. I'm also not a fan of a guy that can run really fast down field in one direction and maybe catch a ball. 

[BillsfaninSB]

I would pick TJ.  I hope Beane can work some magic and figure out how to get TJ, Risner and Harry. 

[GreggTX]

I think DK's stock went up after the combine. As far as the pick at 9 is concerned, I hope it's Ed Oliver.

[RocCityRoller]

Metcalf has bust written all over him just like I said Josh Rosen has bust written all over him

 

he has no history of production

 

he has 2 years, couldn't commit

 

he has 0 lateral movement, Brady did better in the combine

 

I DONT LIKE DK METCALF AS AN NFL PLAYER. PERIOD.

Edited March 7, 2019 by RocCityRoller

[PetermansRedemption]

On 3/4/2019 at 4:32 PM, Reed83HOF said:

If QBs do indeed get pushed up the board, it is going to be hard to pass on (I'm stealing this from Bandit btw) chossing between a couple of these guys
 

Nick Bosa

Quinnen Williams

Josh Allen

Josh Jacobs

Ed Oliver

Christian Wilkins

Jawaan Taylor

Rashan Gary

Devin White

Jeffrey Simmons

TJ Hockenson

 

Each of these players is better than Metcalf and I agree with Bandit that Simmons just doesn't seem like a process guy off the field. And if Bosa or Allen or in the impossible event that Both of them are there, get them both!

Quoted for truth. Take the stud DL or Edge and don’t look back. 

[RocCityRoller]

3 minutes ago, Bills2ref said:

Quoted for truth. Take the stud DL or Edge and don’t look back. 

 

Too much stud DL/ front seven talent, or even a top OL to slip past #9 to take a risk on a DK Metcalf.

[PetermansRedemption]

1 minute ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Too much stud DL/ front seven talent, or even a top OL to slip past #9 to take a risk on a DK Metcalf.

Especially with this WR class. It isn’t so much top heavy as it is solid throughout. You’ll get a real good WR prospect in the 2nd/3rd round. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Bills2ref

[RocCityRoller]

Just now, Bills2ref said:

Especially with this WR class. It isn’t so much top heavy as it is solid throughout. You’ll get a real good WR prospect in the 2nd/3rd round. 

 

agreed, if a top OL or DL falls take him. Trade back if needed, don't reach on DK Metcalf.

 

A lot of 2-4 round WR available.

[BillsFan17]

Hockenson all day 

[par73]

Neither at 9. Metcalf has great straight-line speed, but lacks agility-- slow out of his turns. There are also injury concerns. I liked Hockenson at Iowa (over the more-hyped Fant), but 9 is too high. I'd be open to him if they trade back.

[#34fan]

Trade back for Hockenson. I hate doing things like that, but it's time...TE position has been ignored for way too long... Josh, or whoever succeeds him needs that safety valve.