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Game of Thrones - And Now Our Watch Has Ended!


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15 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Man, for as much as I disliked about the previous two, I loved last night's episode. 

Agreed. I still think the Night King was rushed, but I liked this twist.

 

I thought the Dany madness was just setting up a dramatic reversal. I never thought they’d fully commit to that path, which wound up being awesome.

 

Arya or Jon will likely kill her (definitely thinking Arya). 

 

And seriously....Maisie Williams has been incredible this season. I loved everything they did with her escape sequence.

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I thought it was awesome... but Dany's 2-episode character 180 wasnt well executed.  She went well beyond any previous "Mad King" for small reason (considering she was being actively provoked throughout Meereen/Slavers Bay).  Maybe if they had a councilor poisoning her mind for awhile it, always being right, and earning her trust would make more sense.  Aerys was going to light up King's Landing, but only to spoil the prize from an inevitable sacking by Robert and Eddard (and maybe Tywin).  Dany was just killing people street by street for the hell of it after the war was already won.  

 

I also thought Jaime's trip to King's Landing was an unnecessary waste to give Cersei a disappointing dignified end.  Jaime/Brienne would have been better off dying gallantly at the Battle with the Night King in an embrace and maybe sharing a kiss.  

 

Hound versus Mountain was as good as can be, especially since it was pretty much a foregone conclusion. But great that the Hound thrust them both into the fire.  

 

Will Varys' letters amount to anything?

 

Like I mentioned.  I see this almost certainly turning into a Dany/Jon/Dragon all dying, with Sansa/Tyrion/Davos emerging as the 'voice' and declaring that the realm will be restored to 7 Kingdoms again.  A possible soft ending of Dragon's eggs hatching across the sea. 

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I have a LOT of problems with last nights episode, but none more than the way Jaimie and Cersei went out.  Years of build up and THAT'S how it happens?  Not to mention Jaimie even making it back to Cersei period!  Wasn't he like dead for a second there before rallying?? ?

 

I also didn't like the Hound telling Arya to leave, then Cersei is like right around the corner!  I mean, cooooome on!  Arya's a trained killer whose entire mission is to go there and Kill Cers, but instead she bails?  Not buying it.  Dany somehow learns to fight the big crossbows on boat and land now? Qyburn goes out just getting tossed aside!?

 

Again, love me some Game of Thrones, but I should have known they would run out of time.  Was obvi when they spent 8 years pumping up Ice v Fire . Dead v Living.  And that battle, with the Night King, the craziest enemy ever, was over in one episode... 

 

Definitely interested to see how they wrap this up in an hour and a half! :beer: 

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I didn’t think I’d like them to take Dany to full madnesses, but wound up pretty interesting. Burning the Tarlys started this, so I disagree it was a two episode 180, but I do agree it could have been built up better.

 

I’m surprised today how many people I read that hated the ending to Jamie Cersei. Even with Jamie’s transformation he could never move on from Cersei, he always had a weakness there. I thought it was a fitting end for him. I understand wanting a worse death for Cersei, but I didn’t hate it.

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The moral of the story: we can all come together to defeat an external existential threat, but once done we're back to us doing the exterminating (the only wise thing that Tyrion has said in the past two seasons).  Might as well have been the dead that did it, but "burn them all" brings the story full circle...

 

With Drogon, the Unsullied, and Dothraki still alive, I don't see a way to resolve the story if Dany is killed.  If she survives, then she'd have to kill off her remaining rivals--Jon, Sansa, and Tyrion.  They may have to pull something off completely unexpected and unbelievable to close it out.  We'll see soon enough...  

 

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3 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Man, for as much as I disliked about the previous two, I loved last night's episode. 

 

 

I still feel that seasons 7&8 are moving way too fast, that being said-  last nights was so much better than the last 2; it was really enjoyable & well done. I get the Jamie and Cersai ending and it makes sense that their world is crumbling down on them - I still wanted to see her stabbed or throat slit or whatnot. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TPS said:

The moral of the story: we can all come together to defeat an external existential threat, but once done we're back to us doing the exterminating (the only wise thing that Tyrion has said in the past two seasons).  Might as well have been the dead that did it, but "burn them all" brings the story full circle...

 

With Drogon, the Unsullied, and Dothraki still alive, I don't see a way to resolve the story if Dany is killed.  If she survives, then she'd have to kill off her remaining rivals--Jon, Sansa, and Tyrion.  They may have to pull something off completely unexpected and unbelievable to close it out.  We'll see soon enough...  

 

 

I could see her flying off to leave Westeros to itself.  All the big decisions (Night King/Euron fighting Jamie/Jamie and Cersi's deaths/quick Dany change from beneficent Queen to enraged bitter indiscriminate killer) have been somewhat underwhelming so far, why not continue the trend?

 

Last night felt like a big eff U to the West, like Danerys was saying "if you won't embrace me, then burn and die and off I go with my dragon."

 

 

 

 

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Great episode. Yes, there were some stupid moments along with another major continuity gaff with the return of Jamie’s severed hand. And I was really hoping Dany’s (predictable) turn to madness wouldn’t happen, but I can understand why the writers did what they did. 

 

Dumbest scene: the Euron/Jamie fight. Just too stupid for words on every level. A waste of valuable plot time. Oh well.

 

My favorite scene: Arya and the Hound in the Red Keep when Hound tells her to get out or she will end up like him and how that instantly registered with her. And her calling him by his given name, Sandor, and then thanking him. Good stuff.

 

Also, I read a review and a critic mentioned that Dany’s turn toward madness was foreshadowed in season 2 when she had her vision in the House of the Undying. In it, she is in the iron throne room and it’s a burnt ruin with ash coming down (most of us thought it was snow). Also, in one of Bran’s visions, we see the ominous dark shadow of Drogon over King’s Landing. Made a lot of sense when I was reminded of that.

 

Edited by K-9
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It’s an impossible task, they should have never waited so long to end it. That would have kept the momentum and all these wild scenarios and expectations wouldn’t have ruined so many minds.

 

The season has been decent, nothing great. I put HBO back on my bill just for GOT. Barring an amazing final episode, I wouldn’t have paid to watch the final season. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

I could see her flying off to leave Westeros to itself.  All the big decisions (Night King/Euron fighting Jamie/Jamie and Cersi's deaths/quick Dany change from beneficent Queen to enraged bitter indiscriminate killer) have been somewhat underwhelming so far, why not continue the trend?

 

Last night felt like a big eff U to the West, like Danerys was saying "if you won't embrace me, then burn and die and off I go with my dragon."

 

 

 

 

Yes, I suppose she could fly home to Dario in Mereen?  There has to be resolution between her and Jon and Tyrion though?

 

Again, my expectations are tempered.  It seems these last two seasons have been something like: we know where we want to go, so let's just get there and end this project.  There have been fantastic episodes and filming, but the evolution of some of the characters have been as rushed as their rush to end it all. Eight is enough.

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27 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Also, I read a review and a critic mentioned that Dany’s turn toward madness was foreshadowed in season 2 when she had her vision in the House of the Undying. In it, she is in the iron throne room and it’s a burnt ruin with ash coming down (most of us thought it was snow). Also, in one of Bran’s visions, we see the ominous dark shadow of Drogon over King’s Landing. Made a lot of sense when I was reminded of that.

 

Yes, to both.  It could also have been snow had the NK had made it south to KL.  

 

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I still say that Tyrion is a Targaryen.  My guess is that he is condemned to death for letting Jamie go, and then Dany does the dracarys on Tyrion, and he is untouched.  Then Dany is left speechless, staring at him and Arya comes up from behind and kills her.

 

 

 

 

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I dug that episode.

Game of Thrones has always been about moral ambiguity and shades of grey. There didn't used to be just "good guys" and "bad guys". The books (and earlier seasons of the show) delighted in skillfully showing you that no one is either all good or all bad. As the show surpassed the books, they sort of moved away from this and into black vs white, good guy vs bad guy storytelling. Well, last night's episode was a return to form when it comes to moral ambiguity in the lead characters. We all wanted to see justice finally served to Cersei on a wicked platter of some sort, a violent and memorable death. Instead we got her being held by the love of her life, with the audience left to feel only pity and sympathy for her. We all wanted to see Dany be the conquering, moral hero we've all been rooting for. Instead we treated to shot after shot after shot of the relentlessly gory and horrifying fates of the innocent people upon whom she was wreaking havoc. Jon Snow obviously was a poster child of sorts for this moral ambiguity. We saw him decide in real time what he was and wasn't loyal to, what he was and wasn't willing to do, who he really was as a person, etc.

I've been critical of some episodes this season, and I share some of the concerns about the breakneck pace at which they've chosen to end this story. Last night's episode, though, I really liked. It achieved a nearly Shakespearean level of tragedy, heartbreak, and tension. Well done by Benioff and Weiss.

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3 minutes ago, TPS said:

Yes, I suppose she could fly home to Dario in Mereen?  There has to be resolution between her and Jon and Tyrion though?

 

Again, my expectations are tempered.  It seems these last two seasons have been something like: we know where we want to go, so let's just get there and end this project.  There have been fantastic episodes and filming, but the evolution of some of the characters have been as rushed as their rush to end it all. Eight is enough.

I agree with your thoughts on this...but actually eight...even a long eight, wasn't enough.  That's why they ended up rushing the story.   I wish they would have done a 10 episode season like they did in the other seasons.  I think we would have felt more satisfied...irrespective of the final outcome.

 

Last week Euron and his fleet and the scorpions matched up perfectly with Dany and her dragons.  She was the one who looked inept riding into battle.  This week, the opposite.  Why?   Well you needed last week's episode to push Dany over the edge.  First she loses Jorah in the battle at Winterfell, then she loses Missandei to a cruel Cersei Lannister.  Missandei's death pushed Greyworm over the edge as well.   The only advisers she had left were Tyrion and Jon...who was more of a lover than an adviser.  They both betrayed her trust.  Tyrion was conflicted with the love he still had for his siblings and with the idea that they could end the last battle mercifully.  Was Cersei merciful when she beheaded Missandei?  No...Dany would reserve her mercy for the next generation.

 

Jon with his true identity could no longer return the love that Dany felt for him.  He did love her, but now there is a line he couldn't cross.  He'll bend the knee but don't ask for anything more.  So...if Dany couldn't have love...or mercy...fear and hate were the only paths she could see moving forward.

 

My favorite scene was between Arya and the Hound.  The Hound found love finally...as much as he could ever love anyone...and it was the love he felt for Arya.  His love for her convinced her to let go of the hate she had been carrying since the first season.  She learned and that expression of gratitude was beautifully done.  

 

I agree that the fight between Euron and Jaime was cartoonish...but they had to come up with an ending for Euron.  

 

Jaime died the way he wanted to...in the arms of the woman he loved.  Many of us had presumed it would be on the battlefield with Brienne.  Cersei was always his first love. 

 

Quite honestly...after all the cruelty Cersei had demonstrated throughout the seasons, she actually died to "mercifully," in the arms of her brother/lover with all her machinations causing the world she built to crash in around her.  There was no cruel but just  "surprise" that we had all envisioned.

 

Next week's episode will be very interesting.  The only thing that was set up this week is that Dany is nuts...Oh sh***t!

 

 

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21 minutes ago, PIZ said:

I still say that Tyrion is a Targaryen.  My guess is that he is condemned to death for letting Jamie go, and then Dany does the dracarys on Tyrion, and he is untouched.  Then Dany is left speechless, staring at him and Arya comes up from behind and kills her.

 

 

I don't want to see Dinklage little Peter 

15 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

I agree that the fight between Euron and Jaime was cartoonish...but they had to come up with an ending for Euron.  

 

Burning alive on his ship would have been sufficient 

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I'm a writer by trade, and a production nerd by hobby -- so my thoughts on the episode/series are tempered by those elements. Still, parts of last night's penultimate episode were brilliantly done: 

 

* the cinematography was their best to date,

* the Arya survivor scenes were some of the best war trauma that's ever been done on TV in my opinion,

* the editing between the Cleaganebowl and Arya getting pounded by falling debris was top notch.

 

I have major complaints about other areas of the episode, but they mainly are tied to the same, central issue: the further the writers have gotten from the source material, the more their own shortcomings as writers have been displayed. D&D got the full briefing (and outlines) from GRRM about where his saga was headed, and over the past two seasons there has been a rush to hit plot points at the expense of the character development.  What makes the books great and made the show what it was were these character moments, development, and turns. For the sake of time, much of those moments were tossed aside in favor of spectacle. Some of that is the fault of D&D, most is the result of the nature of the production itself. Some of this is just the nature of the beast, managing the biggest show in history and the deadlines/expectations/budgetary issues that come with it all played a role in these beats being missed imo. We have a shortened season to begin with, and we had 4 episodes totaling close to 5 hours, to build to Dany's turn but 3.5 of those hours were spent on battle/epic visuals rather than the necessary character development to get Dany there.

 

Still, that foreshadowing is and was there for her in the show (more so in the books). Dany had every good angel on her shoulder ripped from her over the last several seasons: Barristan The Bold, Jorah, Missandei, two of her children, and finally Jon. We've also seen her rage flare up repeatedly over the seasons, though it had always been tempered by her better angles. Now, with them gone, and her feeling alone/isolated on a continent that is supposed to be home but treats her as a foreigner, she went full Targaryen. If Martin ever finishes the books, I'm guessing it'll work much better because he'll have the leather between those beats to make it feel earned rather than rushed. 

 

From a literary/TV perspective, what I found really strong was that Dany's rage was in every scene even though she was not. Literally every scene we saw her fire and wrath motivating or complicating every decision made in the midst of the battle. I thought the way they handled that was compelling and well done. 

 

But problems remain -- and they all come down to the same cause I believe: the whole ending has been rushed. That can't be helped when a show gets this massive -- but D&D could have done more to make this work. They're good writers, but not great. That's what's become more and more clear for me the further they've gotten away from the source material and Martin's words/dialogue/characters.   

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2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

I'm a writer by trade, and a production nerd by hobby -- so my thoughts on the episode/series are tempered by those elements. Still, parts of last night's penultimate episode were brilliantly done: 

 

* the cinematography was their best to date,

* the Arya survivor scenes were some of the best war trauma that's ever been done on TV in my opinion,

* the editing between the Cleaganebowl and Arya getting pounded by falling debris was top notch.

 

I have major complaints about other areas of the episode, but they mainly are tied to the same, central issue: the further the writers have gotten from the source material, the more their own shortcomings as writers have been displayed. D&D got the full briefing (and outlines) from GRRM about where his saga was headed, and over the past two seasons there has been a rush to hit plot points at the expense of the character development.  What makes the books great and made the show what it was were these character moments, development, and turns. For the sake of time, much of those moments were tossed aside in favor of spectacle. Some of that is the fault of D&D, most is the result of the nature of the production itself. Some of this is just the nature of the beast, managing the biggest show in history and the deadlines/expectations/budgetary issues that come with it all played a role in these beats being missed imo. We have a shortened season to begin with, and we had 4 episodes totaling close to 5 hours, to build to Dany's turn but 3.5 of those hours were spent on battle/epic visuals rather than the necessary character development to get Dany there.

 

Still, that foreshadowing is and was there for her in the show (more so in the books). Dany had every good angel on her shoulder ripped from her over the last several seasons: Barristan The Bold, Jorah, Missandei, two of her children, and finally Jon. We've also seen her rage flare up repeatedly over the seasons, though it had always been tempered by her better angles. Now, with them gone, and her feeling alone/isolated on a continent that is supposed to be home but treats her as a foreigner, she went full Targaryen. If Martin ever finishes the books, I'm guessing it'll work much better because he'll have the leather between those beats to make it feel earned rather than rushed. 

 

From a literary/TV perspective, what I found really strong was that Dany's rage was in every scene even though she was not. Literally every scene we saw her fire and wrath motivating or complicating every decision made in the midst of the battle. I thought the way they handled that was compelling and well done. 

 

But problems remain -- and they all come down to the same cause I believe: the whole ending has been rushed. That can't be helped when a show gets this massive -- but D&D could have done more to make this work. They're good writers, but not great. That's what's become more and more clear for me the further they've gotten away from the source material and Martin's words/dialogue/characters.   

 

I said almost the exact same thing after watching this latest episode last night. They still have a top-of-the-line HBO budget, so it's going to look great, but without the original story to draw from it's not nearly as compelling imo.

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39 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

 

Last week Euron and his fleet and the scorpions matched up perfectly with Dany and her dragons.  She was the one who looked inept riding into battle.  This week, the opposite.  Why?

 

 

6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

But problems remain -- and they all come down to the same cause I believe: the whole ending has been rushed. That can't be helped when a show gets this massive -- but D&D could have done more to make this work. They're good writers, but not great. That's what's become more and more clear for me the further they've gotten away from the source material and Martin's words/dialogue/characters.   

 

The above being a prime example.  Why did Dany look inept flying along last week?  Because she was ambushed by Euron, taken completely by surprise, because Euron had forewarning from Varys.  Which was why Varys was executed.  

 

But it was so poorly written, it was almost impossible to see.  Four seasons ago, that sort of intrigue would have consumed half a season of plot and character development.  This season, a scene of dialog between Tyrion and Varys, an ambiguous scene of dialog between Tyrion and Dany, and a quick shot of a handwritten note by Varys.  Rushed and incomplete.  

 

Same with Dany's turn to the dark side.  Yes, it's been foreshadowed, and yes, to fans of the show the reasons are pretty clear (loss of many of her trusted advisors, lack of trust in the others).  But foreshadowing is not character development, and it deserved far more time and better writing than it's been given.

 

17 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

* the Arya survivor scenes were some of the best war trauma that's ever been done on TV in my opinion,

 

 

Or film.  Obviously I've never seen a medieval siege, and obviously they never included dragons...but from all I've read about them, that's as close as you'll ever see to what the sacking of a walled city was like.  And Masie Williams sold the shell-shock very well.  

 

And the cinematography on Cleganebowl was awesome.  The framing of their initial standoff, with a backdrop of a crumbled Red Keep and a streak of flame across the sky, was the perfect apocalyptic setting for it, and a nice juxtaposition of the elemental nature of the characters (the Hound = fire, the Mountain = stone).

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And also I can't help feeling everyone's acting has devolved from well-directed earnestness to distractingly-bad melodramatic this season...it's like Dinklage got a lobotomy or something. I mean for the one guy I thought we could count on for a nuanced performance, his acting while he was setting his brother free to somehow rescue Cersei was laughably bad.

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She lost one of her "children" because she went north of the wall.  

She lost another of her "children" because she thought Dragonstone was "safe" and didn't do any high altitude recon on approach. 

 

 

Dany looked awful "ill" in the opening scene.

 

With Great Risk Comes Great Reward  -  Was Vary's trying to slowly poison her?  

Edited by ShadyBillsFan
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21 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Danys' turn wasn't very believable for me, she would've gone right for Cersei in the Red Keep than massacre a bunch of people in the streets imo.

 

Just like in the previous episode when everyone is standing outside of King's Landing with about 10,000 arrows pointed at them and Cersei lets them just *walk away*!?  Doubt it...

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17 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Danys' turn wasn't very believable for me, she would've gone right for Cersei in the Red Keep than massacre a bunch of people in the streets imo.

It wasn't necessarily a turn, she has always had bad impulses and the people who helped keep them in check either turned on her or are no longer there. She gave into her true impulses and who she always said she is:

 

“I am the blood of the dragon. I must be strong. I must have fire in my eyes when I face them, not tears.” 

 

"When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!"

 

"I will take what is mine with fire and blood."

7 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

She lost one of her "children" because she went north of the wall.  

She lost another of her "children" because she thought Dragonstone was "safe" and didn't do any high altitude recon on approach. 

 

 

Dany looked awful "ill" in the opening scene.

 

With Great Risk Comes Great Reward  -  Was Vary's trying to slowly poison her?  

 

I believe that is who the little girl was, she worked in the kitchen after all. 

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3 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

It wasn't necessarily a turn, she has always had bad impulses and the people who helped keep them in check either turned on her or are no longer there. She gave into her true impulses and who she always said she is:

 

“I am the blood of the dragon. I must be strong. I must have fire in my eyes when I face them, not tears.” 

 

"When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground!"

 

"I will take what is mine with fire and blood."

 

I believe that is who the little girl was, she worked in the kitchen after all. 

 

No one was left to check her instincts but I agree. Hard to go from breaker of chains and savior of children to kill the babies in a snap. The books, if they ever come, will probably play it out better. Same with the conversion of Sansa from sniveling torture victim to shrewd queen of the north. 

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2 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

No one was left to check her instincts but I agree. Hard to go from breaker of chains and savior of children to kill the babies in a snap. The books, if they ever come, will probably play it out better. Same with the conversion of Sansa from sniveling torture victim to shrewd queen of the north. 

LOL I just saw this in reddit: 

 

 

 

Edited by Reed83HOF
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2 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Was that meant to be a spoiler? 

If so  -  Take the S out of spoilers 

 

 

11 to 14 seconds

Where do all of these soldiers come from?  

 

LOL - that is what the title of the Reddit thread is (not mine). No it really isn't a spoiler I think they put it there to flag it for the people who haven't watched the episode yet 

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4 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

I still feel that seasons 7&8 are moving way too fast, that being said-  last nights was so much better than the last 2; it was really enjoyable & well done. I get the Jamie and Cersai ending and it makes sense that their world is crumbling down on them - I still wanted to see her stabbed or throat slit or whatnot. 

 

 

Agreed ... They have enough story left to tell that a few more episodes would be preferred over one more Sunday night ... The GOT parties this weekend will be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE..... Biggest TV audience ever ?

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7 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Agreed ... They have enough story left to tell that a few more episodes would be preferred over one more Sunday night ... The GOT parties this weekend will be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE..... Biggest TV audience ever ?

And I'm going to a concert, so I will have to watch it at midnight when I get back home!

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11 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I'll be stunned if that's accurate. Stunned. 

 

First, Martin would have to convince the publisher to hold off on millions of dollars by holding the book(s). 

Second, Martin would have to have had the time to finish them (he's been doing everything but writing those books with multiple shows in development). 

 

But stranger things have happened. 

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29 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Agreed ... They have enough story left to tell that a few more episodes would be preferred over one more Sunday night ... The GOT parties this weekend will be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE..... Biggest TV audience ever ?

Won’t even come close. 

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