Augie Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) Is it my imagination, or did Dawkins struggle on the right side previously? The whole opposite mirror thing was difficult for him? Which side did he play in college? I don’t care HOW they do it, fix the OL and I am THRILLED! Edited January 1, 2019 by Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I have never seen him play guard so I dont know if he is any good at that position. As it stands I think he is the only guy on the roster right now that I feel ok with starting. Im not sure about Teller but he could develop in to a decent starter. That still leaves 3 positions that need to be filled for next year. I know Bodine is under contract but I see him as a depth player at best. The question is how many free agent OL starters will they be able to ink for next year. Counting on a rookie to start on the OL is shakey imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 25 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: The Bills Seems we have quite a few new decision makers though, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 1, 2019 Author Share Posted January 1, 2019 29 minutes ago, Augie said: Is it my imagination, or did Dawkins struggle on the right side previously? The whole opposite mirror thing was difficult for him? Which side did he play in college? I don’t care HOW they do it, fix the OL and I am THRILLED! Played LT in college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Played LT in college Didnt he struggle some when they tried to move him to RT? Am I imagining that, and how bad was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocCityRoller Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 4 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: I will be absolutely shocked if we don't draft Jonah Williams at 9 for LT and then move Dion Dawkins to RT. Then sign Paradis @ C. We think alike. Paradis is my #1 hope in FA an OT in round 1 and all of a sudden the line is much better. Pick up a guard in round 4 or 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeaneBandit Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Actually Dawkins graded high at both spots preseason as a rookie......but LG is where he could be great......and still make a lot of cash. Great interior are getting 10M plus per year these days...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 He had a down year when literally everyone on the offense had a down year. He's our left tackle. He'll improve. He's young and had a promising rookie year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, MJS said: He had a down year when literally everyone on the offense had a down year. He's our left tackle. He'll improve. He's young and had a promising rookie year. I'm with you. He's proven himself to be at least solid at LT. So people think we should move him to draft a guy who is probably a RT or guard who has not played in the league and has a good amount of question marks. This Williams guy is more likely to be Luke Joeckel than Joe Thomas. Unless you are acquiring Tyron Smith or getting Joe Thomas out of retirement, Dion should stay where he is. The grass isn't always greener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: I'm with you. He's proven himself to be at least solid at LT. So people think we should move him to draft a guy who is probably a RT or guard who has not played in the league and has a good amount of question marks. This Williams guy is more likely to be Luke Joeckel than Joe Thomas. Unless you are acquiring Tyron Smith or getting Joe Thomas out of retirement, Dion should stay where he is. The grass isn't always greener. What exactly are the question marks on Jonah Williams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsSbSoon Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Ill have to really watch jonah more but he may very well translate better to guard himself with those short arms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: What exactly are the question marks on Jonah Williams? So many people are saying the dude is a right tackle or a guard. I even read a scouting report that says he might fit best as a center. To me, his upside is not big and his downside is move to guard. To me, if he's a right tackle or a guard you don't take him in the top ten. If he's a left tackle who isn't elite, don't take him in the top ten either. I think he's an excellent college lineman who is really going to struggle at the next level if he stays at left tackle. Anyway, copy and pasting from my long winded post in the Williams post: Williams really is not elite. He projects to be very good, but if you really pay attention, he sounds an awful lot like Luke Joeckel. He's a technician, not a road grader, shorter arms, probably better at guard, struggles with speed rushers etc etc. Being a technician sounds good on paper, not so much when Aaron Donald or Jadeveon Clowney are smashing you in your chest. He's 6-5 301...that is long an lean and many analysts have mentioned that he's likely to weigh in at less than 300 at the draft. That's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEN-CAL17 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 6 hours ago, vincec said: He was bad at RT last season and played much better at LT. He won’t want to move to guard and if they require it then I’m sure he’ll bolt after his rookie deal is up. It’s not an easy situation. Here’s what happens. Bills draft a LT... day he’s gonna compete. He competes with Dawkins, Dawkins gets the edge cause he’s not a rookie. Our draft pick plays RT. At the end of the year Dawkins is eligible for an extension. As long as he’s not asking for huge bucks he’s resigned, next pre season the rookie from the year before now beats him out at LT and now we have both signed long term. Dawkins plays where they need him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Greg Little is more likely the type of player we'll be targeting IMO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, NewDayBills said: I want him at LG, not RT. Problem is, where in the world can we find a decent LT? May just have to leave him there. Maybe there's one in Cincy we could trade for? Or Philly?? Bottom line is we need to stop trading away our franchise tackles. Edited January 1, 2019 by peterpan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 We also need a RT in the worst way. Been saying that for a decade. It's still true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I think it depends completely on off season acquisitions. If they have the opportunity to bring in someone who has an ideal skill set for left tackle, do it, and switch Dawkins over. The thing to remember is that Dawkins made an attempt to switch to right tackle (he played left tackle in college) as a rookie, and struggled with it. I'm not saying he can't do it, but it may not be a quick and seamless transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 21 minutes ago, peterpan said: Maybe there's one in Cincy we could trade for? Or Philly?? Bottom line is we need to stop trading away our franchise tackles. Did Cordy Glenn help Cincinnati all that much? I know Philly won a super bowl without Peters. Yes, OL is important, but no single OL position is anywhere near as important as QB, so trading Glenn makes sense if it means filling the most important position in sports for a decade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 19 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said: He’s definitely not very good at LT I think he'd look a lot more solid if he were playing with a better LG and C next to him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 7 hours ago, BrooklynBills said: Greg Little is more likely the type of player we'll be targeting IMO I don't love him, there is way more boom and bust, but the upside is huge. I'd be fine with it in a trade down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Did Cordy Glenn help Cincinnati all that much? I know Philly won a super bowl without Peters. What sunk Cincinnati this year was having Dalton IR'd week 13 and Jeff Driskel instead of Nick Foles as their backup. Losing AJ Green in Week 8 and effectively onward was also a huge blow. The Bengals significantly improved their offense, decreased their QB sacks and hurries substantially (about 25-30%), and improved their run game, so yeah, Glenn helped. 6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Yes, OL is important, but no single OL position is anywhere near as important as QB, so trading Glenn makes sense if it means filling the most important position in sports for a decade. Beane did what he thought he had to do to get his QB. But I don't think we should soft-pedal the loss. We need two NFL level tackles. Right now we possibly have one, Mills willingness to take it to Alonso not withstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I just want guys who can stop the unbelievably quick penetration every time the ball is handed off to a RB. The number of times that a RB was stuffed the very second he got the ball this year just blows my mind. It would also be nice if a hole opened up once in a while. The OL all season has been blown up on running downs too much. Fixing the run game is exactly what Josh Allen needs. Give Allen some help on 1st and 2nd down with some positive yds and there will be no stopping the offense. I have no doubt that management is looking to correct the problem. Maybe a LT and move Dawkins, but I think the other side of the OL, starting with the center is where the big problems exist. Maybe just fixing those spots is a more direct and simpler path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 16 hours ago, thebandit27 said: FWIW, the organization really liked Donovan Smith back in 2015. He's a FA left tackle There is going to be a tremendous demand for offensive linemen this offseason. We are going to be vying with almost half the teams that need players on that unit. Houston and Jacksonville are two teams that come to mind that would be willing to open their wallets to upgrade their lines. Without question Houston wants to better protect their most valuable asset in Watson. Bringing in a quality LT who can play the position better than Dawkins (who I thought had a down year) is going to be a big challenge. I can see us adding a more reasonably priced guards, center and RT to fortify our line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: What sunk Cincinnati this year was having Dalton IR'd week 13 and Jeff Driskel instead of Nick Foles as their backup. Losing AJ Green in Week 8 and effectively onward was also a huge blow. The Bengals significantly improved their offense, decreased their QB sacks and hurries substantially (about 25-30%), and improved their run game, so yeah, Glenn helped. Beane did what he thought he had to do to get his QB. But I don't think we should soft-pedal the loss. We need two NFL level tackles. Right now we possibly have one, Mills willingness to take it to Alonso not withstanding. I don't disagree, but glossing over the fact that Glenn was traded in order to acquire a QB was a massive oversight. We found Glenn with a 2nd rounder, Dawkins with a 2nd rounder, and Peters as a UDFA. Finding a LT shouldn't be a heavy lift is all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 54 minutes ago, Rockinon said: I just want guys who can stop the unbelievably quick penetration every time the ball is handed off to a RB. The number of times that a RB was stuffed the very second he got the ball this year just blows my mind. It would also be nice if a hole opened up once in a while. The OL all season has been blown up on running downs too much. Fixing the run game is exactly what Josh Allen needs. Give Allen some help on 1st and 2nd down with some positive yds and there will be no stopping the offense. I have no doubt that management is looking to correct the problem. Maybe a LT and move Dawkins, but I think the other side of the OL, starting with the center is where the big problems exist. Maybe just fixing those spots is a more direct and simpler path. Yes. And the OL, while better in pass protection, has not given Allen the time he needs to play the deep ball game very well, much of the time. I spent probably too much time analyzing every run play in about 8 games this season, early on and then mid-season. Haven't gotten to late season yet. The way we run blocked definitely evolved through the season, but it all seemed to be driven by the fundamental fact that we didn't have the Hosses who could win 1:1 in the trenches much of the time, let alone get to the next level and pancake someone. The refs seemed to have the memo, and every time we did manage to pull off a good run play, the laundry went flying as they were on the alert for the holds. Daboll started the season with a lot of dependence on movement and cut blocks. To put it nicely, those seemed to affect our OLmen far more than they affected defenders. Either we were confused, or we were simply ineffective and the blocks resulted in our OLmen sprawled on the ground while defenders hurdled them to tackle for loss or chase Josh around like a headless chicken. Where we were more effective, is either running Ivory straight up the gut and counting on him to take defenders with him for 2-3 yds, or straightforward blocking schemes that put in extra blockers, but Daboll took about 4 games (and I think an ultimatum from McDermott after the Packers game) to focus on this. The Titans game was interesting in that it used misdirection with the TE and FB to achieve successful run blocking and that continued to be a theme. The problem is, when your run game depends upon 22 or 13 personnel and you can't pass effectively out of that set, after a game or two is on film it's like flashing a neon sign at your opponent "run play coming!" 1 hour ago, JohnC said: There is going to be a tremendous demand for offensive linemen this offseason. We are going to be vying with almost half the teams that need players on that unit. Houston and Jacksonville are two teams that come to mind that would be willing to open their wallets to upgrade their lines. Without question Houston wants to better protect their most valuable asset in Watson. Bringing in a quality LT who can play the position better than Dawkins (who I thought had a down year) is going to be a big challenge. I can see us adding a more reasonably priced guards, center and RT to fortify our line. Looking at the known FA, I see pretty slim pickins at all those positions, is the challenge. The other issue for those who say "maybe Beane would prefer vets on the line", is that Castillo is well-known as a coach who is 'my way or the highway' for technique. "Cog had an interview where he said as much. That's one of the reasons Miller had a seat to Ducasse last year, he was said to be slow to pick up the specific techniques Castillo wanted. So bringing in a great vet who has been succeeding using his techniques, will be of lesser effectiveness if Castillo remains and insists that they relearn everything his way. That inevitably slows a player down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Looking at the known FA, I see pretty slim pickins at all those positions, is the challenge. The other issue for those who say "maybe Beane would prefer vets on the line", is that Castillo is well-known as a coach who is 'my way or the highway' for technique. "Cog had an interview where he said as much. That's one of the reasons Miller had a seat to Ducasse last year, he was said to be slow to pick up the specific techniques Castillo wanted. So bringing in a great vet who has been succeeding using his techniques, will be of lesser effectiveness if Castillo remains and insists that they relearn everything his way. That inevitably slows a player down. I said this in a prior post so I apologize for the redundancy. A football analyst on the radio was talking about coaching in the NFL and said he felt the most important coach on a team was the OL coach. He said they were at a premium and got paid accordingly. I'm not impressed with any coach who has a "my way or the highway" mentality to coaching. Or another way of saying it is I'm not impressed with Castillo. What the good coaches do is not straitjacket players to fit their philosophy but adjust their methods to maximize the talents of the players they have to work with. As you highlighted Castillo doesn't have that required trait. He's not a good and smart teacher! He is a McDermott hire and a McDermott mistake. Cronyism is often a detriment to success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufridr101 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Left guard arms are short Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par73 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 He is not good as a tackle, so I'd try him inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Yes. And the OL, while better in pass protection, has not given Allen the time he needs to play the deep ball game very well, much of the time. I spent probably too much time analyzing every run play in about 8 games this season, early on and then mid-season. Haven't gotten to late season yet. The way we run blocked definitely evolved through the season, but it all seemed to be driven by the fundamental fact that we didn't have the Hosses who could win 1:1 in the trenches much of the time, let alone get to the next level and pancake someone. The refs seemed to have the memo, and every time we did manage to pull off a good run play, the laundry went flying as they were on the alert for the holds. Daboll started the season with a lot of dependence on movement and cut blocks. To put it nicely, those seemed to affect our OLmen far more than they affected defenders. Either we were confused, or we were simply ineffective and the blocks resulted in our OLmen sprawled on the ground while defenders hurdled them to tackle for loss or chase Josh around like a headless chicken. Where we were more effective, is either running Ivory straight up the gut and counting on him to take defenders with him for 2-3 yds, or straightforward blocking schemes that put in extra blockers, but Daboll took about 4 games (and I think an ultimatum from McDermott after the Packers game) to focus on this. The Titans game was interesting in that it used misdirection with the TE and FB to achieve successful run blocking and that continued to be a theme. The problem is, when your run game depends upon 22 or 13 personnel and you can't pass effectively out of that set, after a game or two is on film it's like flashing a neon sign at your opponent "run play coming!" Looking at the known FA, I see pretty slim pickins at all those positions, is the challenge. The other issue for those who say "maybe Beane would prefer vets on the line", is that Castillo is well-known as a coach who is 'my way or the highway' for technique. "Cog had an interview where he said as much. That's one of the reasons Miller had a seat to Ducasse last year, he was said to be slow to pick up the specific techniques Castillo wanted. So bringing in a great vet who has been succeeding using his techniques, will be of lesser effectiveness if Castillo remains and insists that they relearn everything his way. That inevitably slows a player down. I think the guard position has enough volume in FA and the trade market to fill two spots if they want to; OT and C are bigger issues for me in terms of availability. I would be fine trading mid round picks for vets whose current teams find them overpriced. I immediately think of Kelechi Osemele and Jason Peters. Osemele had a down year, but was the best guard in football under Castillo in Baltimore, and Gruden hates his own players. Peters is 36, has a team option on his contract, and the Eagles are in a very tight cap crunch--plus they managed to win a super bowl without him, so they'd probably listen. If you could get both guys for a 3 and a 4, would you do it? Go into free agency with Dawkins-Osemele-Bodine-Teller-Peters as the worst-case scenario starting 5? Edited January 1, 2019 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmart128 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Well if we draft a LT which I think is most likely scenario at 9 for us then I'd imagine Dion is going back to RT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) There’s a reason why guys like Jordan Mills start at OT, and it’s not just for us. Most lines are average, meaning 2 or 3 good players and 2 or 3 bodies. Some are bad, like ours, and some are good, like Dallas, Indy etc. We HAVE to fix the interior if we want any semblance of a run game. Teller is fine, and has potential, but I’d throw $$$ at the best C & G available in FA. Edited January 1, 2019 by SCBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coffin Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 It's no surprise he had a down year playing along side Ducasse/Teller over when he was playing alongside Incognito. Bills need to draft/sign 2 starting OL this offseason, maybe 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Oil Company Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 LT - Little (First Rd Pick - I'm not drafting someone who projects better as a guard in the 1st Rd such as Jonah Williams) LG - Dawkins C - Paradis (Free Agent - Overpay and get back stability) RG - Teller RT - D. Williams (Free Agent) The above line has a chance to be really good and stay together for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 21 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: Much better at LT than RT imo. If anything he kicks inside and Wyatt/FA goes to RG. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 46 minutes ago, Rufridr101 said: Left guard arms are short Are you talking about Dawkins? He's got 35 inch arms, which are considered long. Under 33 inches are guards. Typically anything under 34 inches scares front office people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode54 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I apologize if this has been discussed in other threads, but I don't think LT is a huge area of need as I've been reading various threads. I do not think Dawkins is an elite LT, but more than above average. You have to take his complete work into account. Most thought he was the answer at LT until this year. The difference? Not having a Pro Bowl guard next to him. Now that's not saying he can only be great with an elite guard next to him, but someone who gets the job done. I feel like once Teller got in there, the less I started to notice Dawkins "faults". That being said, I think if we can somehow get Paradis and Williams in FA, our line as a whole will be greatly improved and Dawkins will shine again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMDman Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Agreed, I think the loss of Richie really impacted his play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnC said: I said this in a prior post so I apologize for the redundancy. A football analyst on the radio was talking about coaching in the NFL and said he felt the most important coach on a team was the OL coach. He said they were at a premium and got paid accordingly. I'm not impressed with any coach who has a "my way or the highway" mentality to coaching. Or another way of saying it is I'm not impressed with Castillo. What the good coaches do is not straitjacket players to fit their philosophy but adjust their methods to maximize the talents of the players they have to work with. As you highlighted Castillo doesn't have that required trait. He's not a good and smart teacher! He is a McDermott hire and a McDermott mistake. Cronyism is often a detriment to success. what can I say, John. We often disagree, but when you're Right, you're Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 22 hours ago, CNYfan said: Drafted as a RT, but Cordy got hurt so they moved him in. Did pretty well last year but struggled at times this year. Low Grade LT, might be nice at RT Has anyone a memory? In his rookie year preseason, he played rather poorly at RT. It was hoped he would push Mills to the bench but he was outplayed by Mills by a decent margin. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him moving to RT, but I have my doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 22 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: For those who want Jonah Williams if he is available, he projects better to RT Put me in the crowd that against drafting a RT/G inside the top 10, unless it's the final piece to round out the group. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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