Thoughts on McDermott, Beane after the 2018 Season

[billsgpr88]

I hardly ever post on this board, but I'm on here all the time. It's a great way to pass the time during commute to and from work, and despite the backlash that comes from many of the posters regarding controversial issues (QB play, coaching, front office), I usually find merit in most of the perspectives on the board. As the season is now officially over, I thought I'd give my two cents on  perhaps the most controversial topic on the board: McBeane. I've heard from both sides since the era began, those being the "It's a rebuild!" side and the "Fire the incompetent j@ck@sses!" side. Here is my brief estimation of each:

 

The former camp's take is valid when looking at the Bills, and other NFL franchises from a historical perspective. Successful franchises typically find a good coach and stick with them (Belicheck, Sean Payton, Pete Carroll, Mike Tomlin, etc.), and perhaps these coaches needed time to establish their culture and implement their playbook in order to attain their success (a more diligent member of TSW can look in to their respective histories). With this in mind, the more patient Bills fans are willing to give this front office and coaching staff time to get the players they want, install their playbook, and achieve some level of continuity with both, as opposed to the carousel of coaches (esp. offensive coordinators) we have witnessed the past 10 years. How much can we really expect from this roster? Burdened by a terrible cap situation, we were left with a rookie QB from a small school who was expected to be a project, An o-line made up of journeymen and low draft picks, a receiving corps that has had little success gaining separation and holding on to the ball when they do, and a defense led by two great, but very old players. At this stage of "the process", we can't be certain of what we really have.

 

Yet the Bills historically long period of mediocrity has worn much of the fanbase's patience thin. For these fans, the glaring issues arise: What's with all the penalties? Why drop 50m on Star, when he has appeared serviceable at best? Why did they even consider bringing in Tolbert last year, and trading a 3rd for Benjamin this year? And what about all of McDermott's in-game management gaffes? These issues are definitely worthy of our consternation, and though we can chalk them up to the learning curves of both McDermott and Beane, they are mistakes nonetheless. What has been most discouraging, I think, is the 4-5 games both this season and last in which the Bills looked terrible... Like, literally the worst team in the league. I don't know what causes these duds, and they seem to plague most NFL teams with the exception of the elite ones, but it is hard to watch. The Ravens, Chargers, Packers, and Bears games this year, and the losing streak last year which culminated in Peterman's heroics in LA come to mind. These games all have mitigating circumstances, but they all occurred during the McBeane era. One thing is certain: good teams never show up looking like that.

 

I watched this season with mild expectations, and do hold a lot of optimism for the 2019 season. We have, for the first time in God knows how long, A qb that really looks like he can lead a team and not just keep it afloat. We also have a massive amount of cap space and 10 picks in the upcoming draft, so there is a lot of potential to grow. I'm still not sold on McBeane, nor am I ready to chuck 'em, but I guess the whole point of this post is to voice my understanding of both camps, and to allow the rest of TSW to chime in with their views on all things McBeane

 

 

[BuffaloBill]

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There is no McBeane the use of the word is misleading.

[mead107]

Both awesome 

[ProcessTruster]

They killed it this year and last, finding and bringing young, amazing talent in.   This current roster at today's level of development is 9-7 level.  Next year will be better, barring serious injury problems, which trash any team in any season. 

 

Trust the Process.   These guys know what they are doing. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by ProcessTruster

[DCBills_OG]

12 hours ago, billsgpr88 said:

I hardly ever post on this board, but I'm on here all the time. It's a great way to pass the time during commute to and from work, and despite the backlash that comes from many of the posters regarding controversial issues (QB play, coaching, front office), I usually find merit in most of the perspectives on the board. As the season is now officially over, I thought I'd give my two cents on  perhaps the most controversial topic on the board: McBeane. I've heard from both sides since the era began, those being the "It's a rebuild!" side and the "Fire the incompetent j@ck@sses!" side. Here is my brief estimation of each:

 

The former camp's take is valid when looking at the Bills, and other NFL franchises from a historical perspective. Successful franchises typically find a good coach and stick with them (Belicheck, Sean Payton, Pete Carroll, Mike Tomlin, etc.), and perhaps these coaches needed time to establish their culture and implement their playbook in order to attain their success (a more diligent member of TSW can look in to their respective histories). With this in mind, the more patient Bills fans are willing to give this front office and coaching staff time to get the players they want, install their playbook, and achieve some level of continuity with both, as opposed to the carousel of coaches (esp. offensive coordinators) we have witnessed the past 10 years. How much can we really expect from this roster? Burdened by a terrible cap situation, we were left with a rookie QB from a small school who was expected to be a project, An o-line made up of journeymen and low draft picks, a receiving corps that has had little success gaining separation and holding on to the ball when they do, and a defense led by two great, but very old players. At this stage of "the process", we can't be certain of what we really have.

 

Yet the Bills historically long period of mediocrity has worn much of the fanbase's patience thin. For these fans, the glaring issues arise: What's with all the penalties? Why drop 50m on Star, when he has appeared serviceable at best? Why did they even consider bringing in Tolbert last year, and trading a 3rd for Benjamin this year? And what about all of McDermott's in-game management gaffes? These issues are definitely worthy of our consternation, and though we can chalk them up to the learning curves of both McDermott and Beane, they are mistakes nonetheless. What has been most discouraging, I think, is the 4-5 games both this season and last in which the Bills looked terrible... Like, literally the worst team in the league. I don't know what causes these duds, and they seem to plague most NFL teams with the exception of the elite ones, but it is hard to watch. The Ravens, Chargers, Packers, and Bears games this year, and the losing streak last year which culminated in Peterman's heroics in LA come to mind. These games all have mitigating circumstances, but they all occurred during the McBeane era. One thing is certain: good teams never show up looking like that.

 

I watched this season with mild expectations, and do hold a lot of optimism for the 2019 season. We have, for the first time in God knows how long, A qb that really looks like he can lead a team and not just keep it afloat. We also have a massive amount of cap space and 10 picks in the upcoming draft, so there is a lot of potential to grow. I'm still not sold on McBeane, nor am I ready to chuck 'em, but I guess the whole point of this post is to voice my understanding of both camps, and to allow the rest of TSW to chime in with their views on all things McBeane

 

 

 

Why do we give our "two cents" when it is only a penny for your thoughts?

 

[PearlHowardman]

12 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

They killed it this year and last, finding and bringing young, amazing talent in.   This current roster at today's level of development is 9-7 level.  Next year will be better, barring serious injury problems, which trash any team in any season. 

 

Trust the Process.   These guys know what they are doing. 

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha......

 

8-8 forever!

 

[Green Lightning]

4 minutes ago, PearlHowardman said:

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha......

 

8-8 forever!

 

And on cue,  here's the little cloud that cried.

[PearlHowardman]

3 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

And on cue,  here's the little cloud that cried.

 

8-8 forever!

 

[billsfan1959]

9 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

And on cue,  here's the little cloud that cried.

If you took away every post of his that was some variation of "this team sucks, the FO sucks, the coaching staff sucks, the organization sucks, or (fill in the blank) sucks," he would probably have a post count of 2....

[MAJBobby]

Next year need to WIN or time to move on. 

[SCBills]

McDermott can be a bit conservative during the games for my liking, but he also could just be handcuffed by the lack of talent these past 2 years.  Overall, I think he’s a very good coach.  

 

Beane is starting look like a stud GM. 

[Punching Bag]

12 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

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There is no McBeane the use of the word is misleading.

 

You made spelling mistake   There is no McBeane, the use of the word is stupid.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

They better infuse this team with talent in the off-season because they're on the clock. 

[Helpmenow]

Adding more skill and getting slightly better will get them another year. Year four is the one.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

When fans start listing cap hell and bad offensive players as barriers, they need to realize that McBeane actively chose that path for the team. 

 

They chose to trade Dareus, Watkins, Ragland, Darby, and trade for Jordan Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin. 

 

They tried to force Richie Incognito into a paycut, signed Trent Murphy and Star L.

 

They have paraded how many ex-Panthers in here? Mike Tolbert, K. Clay, Joe Webb, Benjamin, Philly Brown. 

 

They have signed washed up veterans like Vlad Duccasse, Anquan Boldin, Chris Ivory, Vontae Davis. 

 

They lost credibility this season. Trading for Corey Coleman and cutting him two weeks later, wasting starter reps on AJ McCarron and trading him, starting Peterman, signing prehistoric Derek Anderson and preaching him as some sort of mentor despite terrible results, mismanaging the punter position all season, some would say not moving off McCoy even though he’s clearly declined. 

 

They’ve been free-wheeling in the draft, trading out of #10 (McDermott not Beane) and up for Zay Jones, up for Dion Dawkins, up for Allen, up for Edmunds blowing chunks of their draft capital. 

 

I think it all adds up to this: Bills fans need to have higher expectations in 2019. I’m still seeing “improvement” and “competing for a Wildcard” and “development”. Why isn’t the 2019 expectation Playoffs and Division Winner? We can’t beat down-trodden Miami, the Jets with a new Coach, or 42-year old Brady yet? When does the real winning start for McDermott and Beane? When? 

 

They have no excuses now. They have their hand picked QB, cap space, draft picks. McDermott’s culture over scheme should be in place. It’s time to get results. 

[Happy]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Next year need to WIN or time to move on. 

 

They don't have much margin for error this off season.  Need to nail FA and the draft; they have more than enough to work with.

[DCOrange]

I'm still on the fence with them. I love McDermott as a leader but I think he has a lot of growing to do as a game manager still (which is totally fine; he's a young, inexperienced coach). Beane has a pretty shaky track record so far IMO but this is obviously likely to be the make or break offseason for him with the cap space and draft picks that he's accumulated. I'm a bit nervous that we'll let him make these big moves and then end up finding out we wasted the assets and then have to bring someone else in to clear out his mistakes like he did when he was first hired but we'll see. He's certainly had some pretty good moves mixed in with the bad.

[Logic]

37 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

When fans start listing cap hell and bad offensive players as barriers, they need to realize that McBeane actively chose that path for the team. 

 

They chose to trade Dareus, Watkins, Ragland, Darby, and trade for Jordan Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin. 

 

They tried to force Richie Incognito into a paycut, signed Trent Murphy and Star L.

 

They have paraded how many ex-Panthers in here? Mike Tolbert, K. Clay, Joe Webb, Benjamin, Philly Brown. 

 

They have signed washed up veterans like Vlad Duccasse, Anquan Boldin, Chris Ivory, Vontae Davis. 

 

They lost credibility this season. Trading for Corey Coleman and cutting him two weeks later, wasting starter reps on AJ McCarron and trading him, starting Peterman, signing prehistoric Derek Anderson and preaching him as some sort of mentor despite terrible results, mismanaging the punter position all season, some would say not moving off McCoy even though he’s clearly declined. 

 

They’ve been free-wheeling in the draft, trading out of #10 (McDermott not Beane) and up for Zay Jones, up for Dion Dawkins, up for Allen, up for Edmunds blowing chunks of their draft capital. 

 

I think it all adds up to this: Bills fans need to have higher expectations in 2019. I’m still seeing “improvement” and “competing for a Wildcard” and “development”. Why isn’t the 2019 expectation Playoffs and Division Winner? We can’t beat down-trodden Miami, the Jets with a new Coach, or 42-year old Brady yet? When does the real winning start for McDermott and Beane? When? 

 

They have no excuses now. They have their hand picked QB, cap space, draft picks. McDermott’s culture over scheme should be in place. It’s time to get results. 

I agree with the idea that the Bills need to start winning in 2019. It IS time to start getting results, but there's a few things I think you're wrong about.

First of all, the first bolded part. The Bills did not choose cap hell. That came at the hands of Doug Whaley. A lot (not all, but a lot) of the jettisoning of talent you mention in the proceeding sentences happened of necessity BECAUSE the Bills were in cap hell. When Beane arrived, the Bills were loaded with a lot of overpaid, under-performing players like Marcel Dareus and Charles Clay (the contract of the latter, they are STILL stuck with, but I digress). Beane's staff has done an EXCELLENT job clearing up the salary cap situation. Unfortunately, in order to do it as quickly as possible, they were left with a bad situation this year in terms of their ability to be competitive in the free agency market. Going forward, though, they have the 3rd most cap space in the league. That wouldn't have happened without the moves they made over the past two seasons.

As for the "they lost credibility" thing: I simply don't agree. When we talk about "the Bills need to start winning in 2019", let's not forget that this staff oversaw a team that MADE THE PLAYOFFS in year one of their tenure. So yes, they need to win in 2019, but they DID win enough to make the postseason in year 1. In year 2, in the midst of a (yes, self-imposed, but for the right reasons) rebuild, they failed to qualify for the postseason. One playoff season and one playoff-less season where the main focus is cleaning up a salary cap mess, building for the future, and breaking in a rookie QB does not equal "lost credibility" in my eyes. Indeed, I believe that Sean McDermott gets the absolute most out of his players. I don't believe there are many coaches in the NFL who would've gotten last year's roster to the playoffs, nor do I believe that there are many coaches in the NFL who would have gotten this year's roster to six wins.

As for the poor personnel decisions, I count Vlad Ducasse, Anquan Boldin, Vontae Davis, and Mike Tolbert. Benjamin, Coleman, and McCarron were risks worth taking, in my opinion. They didn't work out, but it's easy to see why the decisions were made. But even IF you consider them outright bad decisions, it is still only fair to ALSO mention the GOOD personnel successes, which FAR outweigh the failures: 

Micah Hyde
Jordan Poyer
Tre'Davious White
Taron Johnson
Levi Wallace
Matt Milano
Tremaine Edmunds
Harrison Philips 
Star Lotulelei 
Trent Murphy
Rafael Bush
Josh Allen
Zay Jones
Dion Dawkins
Robert Foster
Isaiah McKenzie
Jason Croom

That's a lot of talent that this staff has brought in. They signed a top tier starting safety duo, a nose tackle and defensive end that -- no matter what you say -- DID contribute to the league's 2nd ranked defense this year. They drafted quality players at the game's most important positions (LT, CB, QB, ILB), they found valuable contributors in undrafted free agency in Foster, Wallace, and Croom, they signed a valuable slot receiver and gadget player off another team's practice squad in Isaiah McKenzie. In short, their positive personnel acquisitions outweigh the negative ones by quite a bit. They also may have identified a long term franchise QB for both the offense (Allen) and defense (Edmunds). No small feat...just ask any OTHER Bills GM from the past 20 years. Oh, and I almost forgot: The front office not only found these players, the coaches then DEVELOPED them. Wallace and Foster both learned on the practice squad and were brought up and now contribute. Poyer and Hyde were free agency afterthoughts that McDermott has helped mold into top safeties. etc, etc.

Because of their overall good drafting, ability to find UDFAs and practice squad players that contribute, ability to identify and acquire some quality free agents, ability to develop talent, emphasis on high character, high upside players, emphasis on building a CULTURE and a TEAM rather than just a collection of talent, and because McDermott gets the most out of his under-talented rosters, I feel the Bills are in absolutely EXCELLENT hands going forward. Beane and McDermott have set the foundation for LONG TERM, SUSTAINED SUCCESS. In order to set said foundation, they had to go through a tough season this year. Let's not forget that they MADE THE PLAYOFFS (no small feat in Buffalo) in year one, and let's not forget that the Bills are likely set up for long term success with what looks to be a quality QB, a selfless roster that plays as a team, a young defense that ranked SECOND in the league this year, 10 draft picks and $90 million in cap space, and a winning culture and process in place.

Beane and McDermott have made a few mistakes, and they DO need to start piling up wins, but to say they've lost credibility or done anything less than a fantastic job thus far is inaccurate and shortsighted, in my opinion. On the contrary, what they've done in so short a time qualifies in my mind as just short of a miracle.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Logic

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I agree with the idea that the Bills need to start winning in 2019. It IS time to start getting results, but there's a few things I think you're wrong about.

First of all, the first bolded part. The Bills did not choose cap hell. That came at the hands of Doug Whaley. A lot (not all, but a lot) of the jettisoning of talent you mention in the proceeding sentences happened of necessity BECAUSE the Bills were in cap hell. When Beane arrived, the Bills were loaded with a lot of overpaid, under-performing players like Marcel Dareus and Charles Clay (the contract of the latter, they are STILL stuck with, but I digress).

Couldn't have McDermott worked with someone like Marcell Dareus? We're paying his dead cap figure and Star L as it is. 

 

Beane's staff has done an EXCELLENT job clearing up the salary cap situation. Unfortunately, in order to do it as quickly as possible, they were left with a bad situation this year in terms of their ability to be competitive in the free agency market. Going forward, though, they have the 3rd most cap space in the league. That wouldn't have happened without the moves they made over the past two seasons.

 

Again, they didn't have to trade Sammy Watkins, or Ronald Darby and end up with Jordan Matthews. They chose that route. For the record, I never liked the Sammy Watkins pick, and was happy they cut ties. He was a mediocre performer with the Rams (<600 yards, 1x 100-yard game) and has been a bust for the Chiefs. We're still waiting for this big Sammy explosion of productivity that will never come.

As for the "they lost credibility" thing: I simply don't agree. When we talk about "the Bills need to start winning in 2019", let's not forget that this staff oversaw a team that MADE THE PLAYOFFS in year one of their tenure. So yes, they need to win in 2019, but they DID win enough to make the postseason in year 1. In year 2, in the midst of a (yes, self-imposed, but for the right reasons) rebuild, they failed to qualify for the postseason.

I think a realistic view of that Playoff berth is in order. On the whole it was positive. Ending a 17-year Playoff Drought was a huge monkey off the back. But, they benched Tyrod for Peterman and that blew up in their faces immediately, and the Coach "regretted the result of the decision". Then they scored 3 points in Jacksonville on a day when Blake Bortles was atrocious. Yes, you ended The Drought. But that performance was poor. The 3-points that day foreshawdowed the 31st ranked offense we saw for the majority of 2018. Like fans are supposed to hold onto the memory of a 3-point output in Jacksonville in the time capsule of their memory banks as an elite moment. They went one and done, went out of the Playoffs with a whimper.

Quote

 

One playoff season and one playoff-less season where the main focus is cleaning up a salary cap mess, building for the future, and breaking in a rookie QB does not equal "lost credibility" in my eyes. Indeed, I believe that Sean McDermott gets the absolute most out of his players. I don't believe there are many coaches in the NFL who would've gotten last year's roster to the playoffs, nor do I believe that there are many coaches in the NFL who would have gotten this year's roster to six wins.

As for the poor personnel decisions, I count Vlad Ducasse, Anquan Boldin, Vontae Davis, and Mike Tolbert. Benjamin, Coleman, and McCarron were risks worth taking, in my opinion. They didn't work out, but it's easy to see why the decisions were made. But even IF you consider them outright bad decisions, it is still only fair to ALSO mention the GOOD personnel successes, which FAR outweigh the failures: 

Micah Hyde

That's a Whaley signing, McDermott/Beane do not get credit. 
Jordan Poyer

That's a Whaley signing, McDermott/Beane do not get credit. 
Tre'Davious White

Agree, a #1 cornerback.
Taron Johnson
Levi Wallace
Matt Milano

That's a draft hit. He is good. 
Tremaine Edmunds
Harrison Philips 

So far a rotational Defensive Lineman.
Star Lotulelei

An average (overpaid) DT.  
Trent Murphy

Hurt all season, no impact. 
Rafael Bush

A backup Safety?
Josh Allen

Needs to hit. Bills spent Cordy Glenn, #12, #53 and #55 on him. 
Zay Jones

A #2 in a bad offense? His awakening is a bit overblown don't you think? And besides, wasn't he supposed to be good? The Bills traded up in the 2nd Round(37th overall?) to get him ahead of Ju-Ju Smith Schuster. So can we not break our wrists patting ourselves on the back for that one?
Dion Dawkins
Robert Foster
Isaiah McKenzie

Again, golf clap, but this guy is not a real difference maker. 
Jason Croom

I get it, he's a typical loveable Buffalo Bills underdog story, but he's a fringe NFL player. 

That's a lot of talent that this staff has brought in. They signed a top tier starting safety duo (no they didn't, Whaley did, Beane wasn't even here), a nose tackle (I think its fair to ask if Star L is already past his prime) and defensive end (hurt all year, no impact) that -- no matter what you say -- DID contribute to the league's 2nd ranked defense this year. They drafted quality players at the game's most important positions (LT, CB, QB, ILB), they found valuable contributors in undrafted free agency in Foster, Wallace, and Croom, they signed a valuable slot receiver and gadget player off another team's practice squad in Isaiah McKenzie. In short, their positive personnel acquisitions outweigh the negative ones by quite a bit. They also may have identified a long term franchise QB for both the offense (Allen) and defense (Edmunds). No small feat...just ask any OTHER Bills GM from the past 20 years. Oh, and I almost forgot: The front office not only found these players, the coaches then DEVELOPED them. Wallace and Foster both learned on the practice squad and were brought up and now contribute. Poyer and Hyde were free agency afterthoughts that McDermott has helped mold into top safeties. etc, etc.

Because of their overall good drafting, ability to find UDFAs and practice squad players that contribute, ability to identify and acquire some quality free agents, ability to develop talent, emphasis on high character, high upside players, emphasis on building a CULTURE and a TEAM rather than just a collection of talent, and because McDermott gets the most out of his under-talented rosters, I feel the Bills are in absolutely EXCELLENT hands going forward. McDermott is 15-17 as a Head Coach. Any different than Rex, or Marrone? Just saying, we like the guy because he's prim and proper, but the results are still sub 0.500. Beane and McDermott have set the foundation for LONG TERM, SUSTAINED SUCCESS. In order to set said foundation, they had to go through a tough season this year. Let's not forget that they MADE THE PLAYOFFS (no small feat in Buffalo) in year one And quickly fizzled, scored 3-points, and let's not forget that the Bills are likely set up for long term success with what looks to be a quality QB, a selfless roster that plays as a team Okay, but the Bills have always had a good locker room going back to London Fletcher, Chris Kelsay, George Wilson, Fred Jackson and Eric Wood, a young defense The defensive front seven is getting older in spots, Star L is in the later part of his prime, Hughes is 30+, Murphy is not a lock to ever come back from the knee, Kyle is gone, Lawson's going into his final year if the 5th year is not picked up, Alexander is 35 years old. that ranked SECOND in the league this year In yards, not points per game, 10 draft picks and $90 million in cap space, and a winning culture and process in place There are is no data to support that McDermott's elite culture meaningful sets the Bills up in a different way than the rest of the league. Its nice that he wants guys who show up to meetings on time and practice really hard and pray together. But Dick Jauron said the same things regarding how hard it is to win in the league, studying tape, fixing mistakes, staying in 3rd and manageable, punting and playing field position, avoiding turnovers, and playing complimentary football. McDermott says in every press conference - throws he'd like to have back. He's repetitive. 

Beane and McDermott have made a few mistakes, and they DO need to start piling up wins, but to say they've lost credibility or done anything less than a fantastic job thus far is inaccurate and shortsighted, in my opinion. On the contrary, what they've done in so short a time qualifies in my mind as just short of a miracle. 

Just shy of a miracle? Now come on. The Bills were 15-17 under Marrone, 15-16 under Rex, and now 15-17 under McDermott. Theoretically they have set themselves up to get better with the cap space. But, look at the FA WR's ready to hit the market. The receivers they've traded for have all bombed out. The running backs they've signed are old. If the bar is finding a veteran starter on a sub 0.500 team then I don't think that's a very high bar. Bills fans give the team tons of credit for finding average starters on non-Playoff teams. Where are the difference makers? Alexander was a Whaley find, so was Hughes, so were Hyde and Poyer, so was McCoy (who is done). 

 

My question to you is - when does the excellence start? When does the team get to 10+ wins? Not hovering around 0.500 hoping to gimp into the Playoffs as the 6th seed? 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Logic]

33 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think a realistic view of that Playoff berth is in order. On the whole it was positive. Ending a 17-year Playoff Drought was a huge monkey off the back. But, they benched Tyrod for Peterman and that blew up in their faces immediately, and the Coach "regretted the result of the decision". Then they scored 3 points in Jacksonville on a day when Blake Bortles was atrocious. Yes, you ended The Drought. But that performance was poor. The 3-points that day foreshawdowed the 31st ranked offense we saw for the majority of 2018. Like fans are supposed to hold onto the memory of a 3-point output in Jacksonville in the time capsule of their memory banks as an elite moment. They went one and done, went out of the Playoffs with a whimper.

Are you really gonna sit here and try to belittle the playoff season? The Bills had the longest active playoff drought in all of American sports, and the six coaches prior to McDermott couldn't get it done in multiple seasons. He did it in his FIRST season. You want to minimize it? Go ahead. It was huge.

Couldn't have McDermott worked with someone like Marcell Dareus? We're paying his dead cap figure and Star L as it is. 

Dareus was a hugely overpaid, low-effort player. He did not fit the culture of maximum effort that McDermott was looking to build. Star costs less and produces more.

 

 

Again, they didn't have to trade Sammy Watkins, or Ronald Darby and end up with Jordan Matthews. They chose that route. For the record, I never liked the Sammy Watkins pick, and was happy they cut ties. He was a mediocre performer with the Rams (<600 yards, 1x 100-yard game) and has been a bust for the Chiefs. We're still waiting for this big Sammy explosion of productivity that will never come.

You just admitted Watkins stinks, so it's good they got rid of him, right? Right. Darby hasn't been much above league average, either, and Beane/McDermott quickly rebuilt a superior secondary, anyway. 

 

  Quote

 

Micah Hyde

That's a Whaley signing, McDermott/Beane do not get credit. 
Jordan Poyer

That's a Whaley signing, McDermott/Beane do not get credit. 

Whaley had nothing to do with those signings. McDermott was shopping for the groceries at that point. Whaley was the GM in name only. Beane doesn't get credit, you're right. McDermott does, though.

Tre'Davious White

Agree, a #1 cornerback.
Taron Johnson
Levi Wallace
Matt Milano

That's a draft hit. He is good. 
Tremaine Edmunds
Harrison Philips 

So far a rotational Defensive Lineman.
Star Lotulelei

An average (overpaid) DT.  
That average (overpaid) DT played a thankless role, but helped free up our linebackers to hunt, and was part of the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL.
Trent Murphy

Hurt all season, no impact. 
Struggled with injury, yes, but "made no impact"? Simply not true. Was the second best defensive end on the roster when healthy.
Rafael Bush

A backup Safety?
A cheap, scrap heap signing that was on the field A LOT this year. Has been subbing at nickel corner capably since Johnson went on the shelf.
Josh Allen

Needs to hit. Bills spent Cordy Glenn, #12, #53 and #55 on him. 
Zay Jones

A #2 in a bad offense? His awakening is a bit overblown don't you think? And besides, wasn't he supposed to be good? The Bills traded up in the 2nd Round(37th overall?) to get him ahead of Ju-Ju Smith Schuster. So can we not break our wrists patting ourselves on the back for that one?
Dion Dawkins
Robert Foster
Isaiah McKenzie

Again, golf clap, but this guy is not a real difference maker. 
That's weird. He sure seemed to make a difference in a few games this year. They signed a player off someone else's practice squad. A former 5th round pick. He developed into a quality gadget player and slot receiver with speed and big play ability. 
Jason Croom

I get it, he's a typical loveable Buffalo Bills underdog story, but he's a fringe NFL player. 
This I agree with. Croom is Just A Guy. However, any time you can get meaningful snaps from an UDFA, it's at least a small win. 


Because of their overall good drafting, ability to find UDFAs and practice squad players that contribute, ability to identify and acquire some quality free agents, ability to develop talent, emphasis on high character, high upside players, emphasis on building a CULTURE and a TEAM rather than just a collection of talent, and because McDermott gets the most out of his under-talented rosters, I feel the Bills are in absolutely EXCELLENT hands going forward. McDermott is 15-17 as a Head Coach. Any different than Rex, or Marrone? Just saying, we like the guy because he's prim and proper, but the results are still sub 0.500. 

Did Rex or Marrone take us to the playoffs and I missed it? 

The defensive front seven is getting older in spots, Star L is in the later part of his prime, Hughes is 30+, Murphy is not a lock to ever come back from the knee, Kyle is gone, Lawson's going into his final year if the 5th year is not picked up, Alexander is 35 years old. 

Gosh. It's almost like you're saying the team *gulp* needs to be REBUILT in some areas because it isn't built for long term success? You're proving my point about the necessity of rebuilding efforts for me.

 

My question to you is - when does the excellence start? When does the team get to 10+ wins? Not hovering around 0.500 hoping to gimp into the Playoffs as the 6th seed? 

You maybe missed the part of my thread where I agreed that YES this staff needs to win next year and YES they need to take a big step. The winning needs to start next year. I already said that. But when people say "they need to start winning!", it ignores two things: One, that they DID make the playoffs last year. I get it, you aren't impressed. A playoff season is a playoff season, though. If it's so easy to do, how come none of the previous six head coaches did it? And two, we all knew from the start this was going to be a rebuild that took a few years. YOU say "well it's self inflicted!". I disagree. They had an overpaid, under-performing roster that did not play as a TEAM. It was a collection of talent only, and not even good talent at that, for the most part. They were going nowhere fast, and had a hellacious cap situation. EVERYONE knows and agrees they need to start winning next year, but it's disingenuous to act like they haven't won at all while here (playoffs in first season) and that they aren't in year two of a complete tear-down and rebuild. I get that the last 20 years of Bills football has been frustrating, and I get how that could cause you to lose patience with THIS staff. I simply disagree. I haven't lost patience with them. I think they're doing a great job. Next year I hope for and expect 10+ wins. 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

15 minutes ago, Logic said:

 

Using a golf analogy, I'm at par with Beane and McDermott. 

 

1. Record wise, they are the same as Marrone and Rex through two seasons. I hear you on the Playoff birth, watching the fans jump for joy and the Bills locker room erupt was great. But they scored 3 points and got bounced immediately on a day where Bortles was horrid, so it's not going in the keepsake of Bills moments for me. 

 

2. They've shipped off many of the Whaley cornerstone's with only McCoy, Clay, Hughes, Mills and Alexander as holdovers, and have given the Bills a clean slate in terms of cap space. They were right on Watkins, right on Dareus, as I don't think those guys together add one win to the Bills total this season.

 

3. Their free agent signings so far have been average. Murphy and Star were ok. Vlad Ducasse is below average as has been replaced. Tolbert is a 260 pound Fullback and was kept as the only backup to McCoy in 2017. Ivory is ok. Their WR trades have not worked, Matthews, Clay, Coleman or Benjamin. Boldin was way past his prime, Vontae Davis was hurt/old, Philly Brown was a fringe player, Joe Webb stuck for one year, our punter needs replaced. They missed on Peterman and McCarron. The Rick Dennison offense was from 1974. 

 

4. They've had some hits in the Draft, but have largely spent any excess capital trading up for players. 

 

 

So in the end I'm excited to hear Beane speak to the media this afternoon. I look forward to FA and the Draft. I just want the bar of expectation to be raised. I think in Buffalo we give too much credit for ordinary things. Finding an average starter in Free Agency on a non-Playoff team, for example. Fans go back to the old phrases when there are no results, new schemes, new culture, new receivers, blaming past regimes, learning how to win, being "young". 

 

The good and the bad together leave me at, just win in 2019. We heard Buddy Nix all those years ago say that we aren't that far away. Eight years later we're still not a good NFL team. So let's see the baby and stop telling me about the labor pains. 

 

 

 

 

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Next year need to WIN or time to move on. 

What is winning? 9-7? Must make the playoffs?  Win the super bowl?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

What is winning? 9-7? Must make the playoffs?  Win the super bowl?

10 wins is the bar. Not 8-8, 9-7 hanging on with play-in scenarios. 

 

Miami will have a new Coach, Jets will have new Coach and Brady will be 42 next season. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Watkins90]

18 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

[This is an automated response]

 

The topic title is potentially misleading. Accurate titles help the community find topics relevant to their interests and avoids reader frustration. Please change the topic title to more accurately reflect content of the original post.The topic starter can edit the topic title line to make it more appropriate.

 

Thank you.

 

 

There is no McBeane the use of the word is misleading.

There most certainly is a McBeane. Bills fans on here have been referring to the two men as that since Brandon Beane was hired. Saying that is a  misleading topic is in of itself a misrepresentation. 

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think a realistic view of that Playoff berth is in order. On the whole it was positive. Ending a 17-year Playoff Drought was a huge monkey off the back. But, they benched Tyrod for Peterman and that blew up in their faces immediately, and the Coach "regretted the result of the decision". Then they scored 3 points in Jacksonville on a day when Blake Bortles was atrocious. Yes, you ended The Drought. But that performance was poor. The 3-points that day foreshawdowed the 31st ranked offense we saw for the majority of 2018. Like fans are supposed to hold onto the memory of a 3-point output in Jacksonville in the time capsule of their memory banks as an elite moment. They went one and done, went out of the Playoffs with a whimper.

Just shy of a miracle? Now come on. The Bills were 15-17 under Marrone, 15-16 under Rex, and now 15-17 under McDermott. Theoretically they have set themselves up to get better with the cap space. But, look at the FA WR's ready to hit the market. The receivers they've traded for have all bombed out. The running backs they've signed are old. If the bar is finding a veteran starter on a sub 0.500 team then I don't think that's a very high bar. Bills fans give the team tons of credit for finding average starters on non-Playoff teams. Where are the difference makers? Alexander was a Whaley find, so was Hughes, so were Hyde and Poyer, so was McCoy (who is done). 

 

My question to you is - when does the excellence start? When does the team get to 10+ wins? Not hovering around 0.500 hoping to gimp into the Playoffs as the 6th seed? 

McDermott most definitely gets credit for signing Hyde and Poyer. He was the head coach when they were signed. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

The NFL moves fast.

 

McDermott is under.500 Head Coach overall (15-17).  Under .500 in the AFC EAST (4-8).  One of the worst at Replay Challenges (1 for 10).

 

under McDermott the Bills Offense went from 19 points per game in 2017 to 16 points per game in 2018.  And his speciality is NOT on Offense so it’s not like we are looking to Him for ideas on fixing the offense.

 

IMO

 

2019 will be McDermotts 3rd Season and Allen’s 2nd Season.  AND IF YOU WANT to hold Buffalo to the bar/standard of other teams around the league then the pressure on MCDERMOTT and ALLEN is tremendous.

 

I’m not sure I see a scenario where they both survive 2019 unless it ends in Playoffs.

[Bills Pimpin']

6 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Next year need to WIN or time to move on. 

They have 3 more years.

6 hours ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

They better infuse this team with talent in the off-season because they're on the clock. 

Yup, a clock that has an alarm set for 12:00AM on Dec. 30, 2021.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

McD= GOAT/thread.

 

 

[Bills Pimpin']

Most people in this thread are a complete joke. Here are the facts:

 

Nationally starting to be recognized as one of the best coach/GM combos in the league. 

Took one of the worst cap situations and turned it into arguably the best situations in 2 seasons by trading away "talent" that has not produced since the day they left. 

Won 6 and were competitive in all but 4 games with $50 million in cap space and starting rookies, UDFA, and second year players at over 1/2 of the 22 starting positions.

First playoff birth in 17 years and one of the most memorable days in the history of the Buffalo Bills the day they clinched as a first year HC/GM.

Drafted the most exciting QB and player the franchise has had in 25 years and maybe ever, and by all accounts, has outperformed what was expected.

Drafted a 20 year old middle linebacker that looks, by all accounts, like a superstar and someone that can lead this defense for a decade.

Orchestrated one of the best retirement days of a loved player, certain to be on the WOF.

 

And that's just a portion of it, doesn't include the hiring of Daboll, Frazier, the 2nd ranked defense in 2018, Tre White, Matt Milano, Taron Johnson. 

 

7 head coaches were fired the last 2 days, plus McCarthy. Many of them will get another HC job. You want any of those retreads? 

 

3 more years minimum folks. Any less would be a joke just like the Armchair GM's and HC's in this thread.

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

34 minutes ago, Watkins90 said:

There most certainly is a McBeane. Bills fans on here have been referring to the two men as that since Brandon Beane was hired. Saying that is a  misleading topic is in of itself a misrepresentation. 

McDermott most definitely gets credit for signing Hyde and Poyer. He was the head coach when they were signed. 

Doug Whaley is a pariah I get it, but he was the GM and head of the Pro Personnel department. 

 

McDermott was coming off a season in which he was a DC, and was a HC for 2 1/2 months at the time of those signings. 

 

Furthermore, your owner said that Whaley and McDermott were working hand in hand on FA and the Draft, and there was crying when he was let go. 

 

McDermott gets the credit, but he was not a scout and did not run the scouting department pro or college. 

[Bills Pimpin']

29 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

The NFL moves fast.

 

McDermott is under.500 Head Coach overall (15-17).  Under .500 in the AFC EAST (4-8).  One of the worst at Replay Challenges (1 for 10).

 

under McDermott the Bills Offense went from 19 points per game in 2017 to 16 points per game in 2018.  And his speciality is NOT on Offense so it’s not like we are looking to Him for ideas on fixing the offense.

 

IMO

 

2019 will be McDermotts 3rd Season and Allen’s 2nd Season.  AND IF YOU WANT to hold Buffalo to the bar/standard of other teams around the league then the pressure on MCDERMOTT and ALLEN is tremendous.

 

I’m not sure I see a scenario where they both survive 2019 unless it ends in Playoffs.

Extremely excited you don't own the Bills.

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, PearlHowardman said:

 

8-8 forever!

 

 

so far they have been here two years and haven't gone 8-8 yet.  But,there's still.hope

[hemma]

People that want to complain about FO should revisit our 2016 draft choices.

Give you a baseline for ‘bad’.

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

If you took away every post of his that was some variation of "this team sucks, the FO sucks, the coaching staff sucks, the organization sucks, or (fill in the blank) sucks," he would probably have a post count of 2....

You think its that high???

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Next year need to WIN or time to move on. 

I am in agreement with Bobby and I am one of McD's biggest supporters

 

I believe that we are in year 2 not 1 of a major rebiuld.......I think that McD nearly has his defense set (its not perfect yet.....but despite the hiccups here and there it IS pretty darn good) it will be interesting to see if Frasier is retained as DC with McD's number 1 choice for his defense on the market......

 

but to me "winning" does not mean a super bowl birth (not saying that you mean that Bobby) "winning" to me means a playoff birth next year.....with the undertanding that even next year the team will not be completely set but it will be ENOUGH set that we should be able to actually run the ball.....have a start QB in his second year that needs to take that leap forward.....a OL that doesnt look like a ***** show week to week that can actually execute blocking on a screen pass....and enough offensive playmaker that we can move the ball and score points when needed

 

I am NOT expecting a complete product....I AM expecting a solid team that can beat other bad teams and hang with good teams week to week....that should be enough for a playoff birth

 

THen......another year of draft picks and free agency to fine tune......and I expect a CONTENDING team

 

and yes....I think McD is a hell of a coach

[Straight Hucklebuck]

33 minutes ago, Bills Pimpin' said:

Most people in this thread are a complete joke. Here are the facts:

Jokes because they criticize elements of the team? Are the Buffalo Bills above any criticism?

 

Nationally starting to be recognized as one of the best coach/GM combos in the league. 

Where has that been printed? 

 

Quote

Took one of the worst cap situations and turned it into arguably the best situations in 2 seasons by trading away "talent" that has not produced since the day they left. 

Agree, they were right on Watkins and Dareus. Not sure they had to get rid of Darby. 

 

Won 6 and were competitive in all but 4 games with $50 million in cap space and starting rookies, UDFA, and second year players at over 1/2 of the 22 starting positions.

This is trying to give credit for mediocre results. 

 

Quote

First playoff birth in 17 years and one of the most memorable days in the history of the Buffalo Bills the day they clinched as a first year HC/GM.

Agree. 

 

Quote

Drafted the most exciting QB and player the franchise has had in 25 years and maybe ever, and by all accounts, has outperformed what was expected.

Bravo to Allen on yesterday. Best game all season. He was erratic in 2018 though. 

 

Quote

Drafted a 20 year old middle linebacker that looks, by all accounts, like a superstar and someone that can lead this defense for a decade.

Superstar? 

 

Quote

Orchestrated one of the best retirement days of a loved player, certain to be on the WOF.

Ok

 

And that's just a portion of it, doesn't include the hiring of Daboll, Frazier, the 2nd ranked defense in 2018, Tre White, Matt Milano, Taron Johnson. 

2nd in yards, not in points

 

7 head coaches were fired the last 2 days, plus McCarthy. Many of them will get another HC job. You want any of those retreads? 

Hue Jackson - No, Adam Gase - Interesting, Vance Joseph - No, Todd Bowels - No, Steve Wilks - No, Mike McCarthy - No, Koetter - No, Marvin Lewis - Heck No

 

3 more years minimum folks. Any less would be a joke just like the Armchair GM's and HC's in this thread.

Three more years guaranteed? We have to see some winning. That’s just me. Getting rid of GMs is difficult and not advised. 

 

 

Responses attached.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

40 minutes ago, Bills Pimpin' said:

Extremely excited you don't own the Bills.

 

I won’t apologize for holding them to the level/standards that the rest of the league has set for them.

 

To do less is...to be polite... is amateur hour.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

22 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I am in agreement with Bobby and I am one of McD's biggest supporters

 

I believe that we are in year 2 not 1 of a major rebiuld.......I think that McD nearly has his defense set (its not perfect yet.....but despite the hiccups here and there it IS pretty darn good) it will be interesting to see if Frasier is retained as DC with McD's number 1 choice for his defense on the market......

 

but to me "winning" does not mean a super bowl birth (not saying that you mean that Bobby) "winning" to me means a playoff birth next year.....with the undertanding that even next year the team will not be completely set but it will be ENOUGH set that we should be able to actually run the ball.....have a start QB in his second year that needs to take that leap forward.....a OL that doesnt look like a ***** show week to week that can actually execute blocking on a screen pass....and enough offensive playmaker that we can move the ball and score points when needed

 

I am NOT expecting a complete product....I AM expecting a solid team that can beat other bad teams and hang with good teams week to week....that should be enough for a playoff birth

 

THen......another year of draft picks and free agency to fine tune......and I expect a CONTENDING team

 

and yes....I think McD is a hell of a coach

I agree with all of this. 

 

I am excited for this offseason and ready to see what the Bills FO does. 

[MAJBobby]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

What is winning? 9-7? Must make the playoffs?  Win the super bowl?

 

Must make playoffs. With drastic improvement on offense

30 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I am in agreement with Bobby and I am one of McD's biggest supporters

 

I believe that we are in year 2 not 1 of a major rebiuld.......I think that McD nearly has his defense set (its not perfect yet.....but despite the hiccups here and there it IS pretty darn good) it will be interesting to see if Frasier is retained as DC with McD's number 1 choice for his defense on the market......

 

but to me "winning" does not mean a super bowl birth (not saying that you mean that Bobby) "winning" to me means a playoff birth next year.....with the undertanding that even next year the team will not be completely set but it will be ENOUGH set that we should be able to actually run the ball.....have a start QB in his second year that needs to take that leap forward.....a OL that doesnt look like a ***** show week to week that can actually execute blocking on a screen pass....and enough offensive playmaker that we can move the ball and score points when needed

 

I am NOT expecting a complete product....I AM expecting a solid team that can beat other bad teams and hang with good teams week to week....that should be enough for a playoff birth

 

THen......another year of draft picks and free agency to fine tune......and I expect a CONTENDING team

 

and yes....I think McD is a hell of a coach

 

Winning for me is a solid playoff birth. Not backed in. And also a drastic improvement on offense. 

 

Not even saying they MUST win in the playoffs. Just a legit birth (not backed into). If by year three you are not easily in playoffs time to move on. 

 

Obviously caveat Josh Allen healthy all year. Hard to blame coach if backup QB has to play significant time. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by MAJBobby

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, billsgpr88 said:

I hardly ever post on this board, but I'm on here all the time. It's a great way to pass the time during commute to and from work, and despite the backlash that comes from many of the posters regarding controversial issues (QB play, coaching, front office), I usually find merit in most of the perspectives on the board. As the season is now officially over, I thought I'd give my two cents on  perhaps the most controversial topic on the board: McBeane. I've heard from both sides since the era began, those being the "It's a rebuild!" side and the "Fire the incompetent j@ck@sses!" side. Here is my brief estimation of each:

 

The former camp's take is valid when looking at the Bills, and other NFL franchises from a historical perspective. Successful franchises typically find a good coach and stick with them (Belicheck, Sean Payton, Pete Carroll, Mike Tomlin, etc.), and perhaps these coaches needed time to establish their culture and implement their playbook in order to attain their success (a more diligent member of TSW can look in to their respective histories). With this in mind, the more patient Bills fans are willing to give this front office and coaching staff time to get the players they want, install their playbook, and achieve some level of continuity with both, as opposed to the carousel of coaches (esp. offensive coordinators) we have witnessed the past 10 years. How much can we really expect from this roster? Burdened by a terrible cap situation, we were left with a rookie QB from a small school who was expected to be a project, An o-line made up of journeymen and low draft picks, a receiving corps that has had little success gaining separation and holding on to the ball when they do, and a defense led by two great, but very old players. At this stage of "the process", we can't be certain of what we really have.

 

Yet the Bills historically long period of mediocrity has worn much of the fanbase's patience thin. For these fans, the glaring issues arise: What's with all the penalties? Why drop 50m on Star, when he has appeared serviceable at best? Why did they even consider bringing in Tolbert last year, and trading a 3rd for Benjamin this year? And what about all of McDermott's in-game management gaffes? These issues are definitely worthy of our consternation, and though we can chalk them up to the learning curves of both McDermott and Beane, they are mistakes nonetheless. What has been most discouraging, I think, is the 4-5 games both this season and last in which the Bills looked terrible... Like, literally the worst team in the league. I don't know what causes these duds, and they seem to plague most NFL teams with the exception of the elite ones, but it is hard to watch. The Ravens, Chargers, Packers, and Bears games this year, and the losing streak last year which culminated in Peterman's heroics in LA come to mind. These games all have mitigating circumstances, but they all occurred during the McBeane era. One thing is certain: good teams never show up looking like that.

 

I watched this season with mild expectations, and do hold a lot of optimism for the 2019 season. We have, for the first time in God knows how long, A qb that really looks like he can lead a team and not just keep it afloat. We also have a massive amount of cap space and 10 picks in the upcoming draft, so there is a lot of potential to grow. I'm still not sold on McBeane, nor am I ready to chuck 'em, but I guess the whole point of this post is to voice my understanding of both camps, and to allow the rest of TSW to chime in with their views on all things McBeane

 

Oh, a fair and balanced post!  We can't have that here!

 

I have concerns about them both as you cite.  (the Benjamin trade was last year.  this year was bringing in Vontae Davis and Corey Coleman)

 

I don't know who said it: "hire smart people and give them time to figure it out".  I think they have both done enough to earn the time to see if they'll figure it out. 

 

A lot of their ultimate success and failure is going to hinge on things they can't directly control: the trajectory of the players and coaches they've put in place this year.  Will Allen tear into the offseason, work double-hard on his footwork and his ability to read the field and see what the D is giving him?  Will Edmunds dedicate himself to honing his craft in a Bruce-Smith like way?  Or will they bask in being young and having by most folks' standards, unlimited money?  Will Daboll learn from his mistakes this year?

 

A lot more will be seen from the direction Beane chooses in FA and the draft.  The Carolina team Beane grew up with, IMO, under-invested in offensive line and offensive skills players.  Is that a mistake Beane will learn from, or a model he will follow?  The offensive player evaluation has been a bit suspect.  Will they make changes in their evaluators there?  As @SDS said elsewhere, it's a painfully shallow take when people look at a situation where the player talent is lacking, and conclude that the coach sucks.  It's on Beane to give McDermott good grist for his mill.



 

 

 

[Chandler#81]

I think they’re a great, young combo with a shared vision. Very high expectations for the next few years. 

 

btw, ALL the NFL pundits agree..