Again in 5 minutes of a game I see catches no Bills have made this year

[Fixxxer]

I would cut Croom and Logan Thomas and for the Phins game, I would elevate the two PS TEs, Towbridge and Carter.  See what they can do.

[Magox]

3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Allen is still learning and has much to improve on, and yesterday wasn't a great day for him. However,  he did make some good throws that could have made a difference in the game:

11:08 1st Qtr: 11 yard pass to Mckenzie on 3rd and 5. On target and dropped. Ended the drive.

6:41   1st Qtr: 47 yard pass to Foster. On target and room to run to the endzone. Lost in the sun (are you f'n kidding me?)

12:32 2nd Qtr: 4 yard pass to McKenzie on 3rd and 3. McKenzie couldn't even get a half a yard of separation on this route. On target, right in his hands. No catch, drive ended.

10:21 2nd Qtr: 23 yard pass to Thomas. On target. No catch at the goal line.

6:57 3rd Qtr: Flare pass to Ford at the LOS with room to run. On target. No catch

 

I chose those 5 passes because every single one of them was on target and completely catchable by even the lowest NFL satandards. Those drops were the difference between two drives ending or continuing, 1 TD in the game or 2 (maybe 3) TDS, 217 yds passing or 300 + yds passing, and a 49% completion percentage or a 61% completion percentage.

 

This is not to make excuses for Allen. Heaven knows he made some poor decisions and poor throws. However, it just feels like he gets far less help (or even luck) than he should when he does make good decisions and does make good throws.

 

Not only those passes but he had another pass on a third down to foster one on one vs Gilmore in the endzone where Foster got his fingers on.  Foster mistimed his jump on that one.  It would have been a great play by Foster but could have been made.

 

There was another play in the endzone where the ball was close to foster and McKenzie and McKenzie was in position and the defender jumped and knocked McKenzie out of position that should have been a pass interference.

 

Then there was another 3rd down play that was perfectly thrown by Allen that the defender made a good play on.  No separation from Mckenzie.

 

Then the fumble by Croom.  Allen made nice passes to get them to the 5.

 

Misplay after misplay after misplay.

 

 

[Thriftygamer83]

32 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Star is overpaid but decent.  

 

Murphy is wildly meh.  I think I read somewhere that we have an easy out on his contract without much dead cap?...  not sure if anyone can verify but I really hope that’s the case. 

Four million and eight million which isn’t to bad but it’s the little things which add up.  

[Livinginthepast]

The receiving corps has baffled me this year. You had KB and Clay who were supposedly A1 talent continually show us a lack of skill, effort and commitment. Zay has been better than expected but seeing that his expectations after last year were so poor that isn't something to celebrate. Foster has been a pleasant surprise but he isn't not an elite level receiver. None of the group has made any amazing grabs, contested catches or most importantly clutch receptions when it was most necessary. The pass that was lost in the sun in the first Q yesterday says it all.  In short we have no money players anything like what the OP mentioned.  

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

Not only those passes but he had another pass on a third down to foster one on one vs Gilmore in the endzone where Foster got his fingers on.  Foster mistimed his jump on that one.  It would have been a great play by Foster but could have been made.

 

There was another play in the endzone where the ball was close to foster and McKenzie and McKenzie was in position and the defender jumped and knocked McKenzie out of position that should have been a pass interference.

 

Then there was another 3rd down play that was perfectly thrown by Allen that the defender made a good play on.  No separation from Mckenzie.

 

Then the fumble by Croom.  Allen made nice passes to get them to the 5.

 

Misplay after misplay after misplay.

 

 

Agreed. I cannot wait for (hopefully) a drastic upgrade of talent this off season...

[Kirby Jackson]

30 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

I see a lot of speed and big play guys, but I also see a lot of check downs to tight ends and running backs. The Patriots routinely destroy opponents with short passes.  The Bills don’t seem to have check down options that are reliable. It may also be caused by Josh Allen throwing check down passes too hard to be caught. Is that a Josh Allen problem, or a receiver problem?

Kenny Golladay won a ton of 50/50 balls when Detroit played the Bills. It’s that kind of big receiver that the Bills need.  Benjamin was supposed to be that guy, but it didn’t work out. 

Part of the reason that it didn’t work with Benjamin (and Funchess has the same problem) is that teams have gone to bigger corners to counteract the big receivers. That “he’s open when he’s not” doesn’t really exist anymore. The big guys that succeed all have speed (sub 4.5). The ones that don’t can’t separate. The other receivers that succeed have elite speed. You need to make chunk plays. It’s too hard to consistently win needing 12 play drives IMO. The most explosive offenses are the best teams (and that list no longer includes the Pats). 

31 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Hopkins is more of a possession guy actually.  He wins with technique, route running, and the strongest hands maybe ever.

Fair

[Thriftygamer83]

2 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

The receiving corps has baffled me this year. You had KB and Clay who were supposedly A1 talent continually show us a lack of skill, effort and commitment. Zay has been better than expected but seeing that his expectations after last year were so poor that isn't something to celebrate. Foster has been a pleasant surprise but he isn't not an elite level receiver. None of the group has made any amazing grabs, contested catches or most importantly clutch receptions when it was most necessary. The pass that was lost in the sun in the first Q yesterday says it all.  In short we have no money players anything like what the OP mentioned.  

Foster and Zay play like small receivers with no aggression at all.  Clutch catches pass right through their fingers.  Where only they can get it can remover the Jets game and commentators were basically saying that’s his level of clutch that he will never be capable of living up too and then replayed his drop against the Panthers last year.  Jones doesn’t live up to expectations because he’s never really been anything to expect.  As for Foster it’s more of the same and it shows.  Allen is surrounded by talentless hacks and Daboll with Castillo have been neglected.  So, Daboll calls great plays and find clutch targets and the clutch guys like Zay who have never lived up to draft status (5th or 6th rounder IMHO) have been lazy in improving their game personally.  

[CincyBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

Not only those passes but he had another pass on a third down to foster one on one vs Gilmore in the endzone where Foster got his fingers on.  Foster mistimed his jump on that one.  It would have been a great play by Foster but could have been made.

 

There was another play in the endzone where the ball was close to foster and McKenzie and McKenzie was in position and the defender jumped and knocked McKenzie out of position that should have been a pass interference.

 

Then there was another 3rd down play that was perfectly thrown by Allen that the defender made a good play on.  No separation from Mckenzie.

 

Then the fumble by Croom.  Allen made nice passes to get them to the 5.

 

Misplay after misplay after misplay.

 

 

And lets not forget that drop by Thomas of a perfectly thrown ball at the goal line.  Taken together this is way to many drops and missed opportunities by our receivers.

 

As an aside if forced to grade Allen I would say he was between a C+ & B- yesterday.  Those 2 INT's were bad and he needs to get that out of his system.  So like a lot of us who support Allen on 2BD we are fully aware that he has a lot of work to do.  But put just average NFL skill players around Allen and IMO he would have more TD's then INT's this season and he would already have a 300 yard game and the Bills would have 2 - 3 more wins. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh played badly yesterday. Other QBs play badly sometimes too. Josh played really well last week. It is possible to think all of the below:

- the offensive talent on this team is sub NFL standard;

- Josh was bad yesterday;

- Josh can be a good Quarterback. 

 

People act as though these are somehow three distinct mutually exclusive positions. 

Preach

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. He is only in the team for his skills in the bedroom. 

 

Harsh.  I thought he showed flashes.  But yesterday was a debacle for sure.  Again, I feel it shows our guys are poorly coached.

[CommonCents]

15 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Everyone at our party was screaming hold on to the ball as soon as he caught it.  Everyone knew he was gonna fumble

Same. I don’t understand how you can make it to the NFL level and have no idea what’s happening around you. Did the guy think he was tanking defenders for a ride into the end zone? Did he forget how to fall down? Wrap up the ball and go down.

 

This needs to be coached into these guys? At this level? Wow. I hope they cut him today. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

54 minutes ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Great so Zay and Foster play fast, don’t have hands, and don’t use their body frames to get better separation.  Which means that unlike Kelvin Benjamin they won’t eat themselves out of the league they will just be cap eaters and non-factors.  Thinking we need an offensive quality assessment Coach to find better ROI for receivers and tight ends.  

 

Doesnt Beane have a team of scouts whose job that’s supposed to be?

[clearwater cadet]

Thomas makes that catch Allen looks like a franchise Guy, he miss it and Allen a bust?  Many times the Wr's make the Qb. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

Just now, CommonCents said:

Same. I don’t understand how you can make it to the NFL level and have no idea what’s happening around you. Did the guy think he was tanking defenders for a ride into the end zone? Did he forget how to fall down? Wrap up the ball and go down.

 

This needs to be coached into these guys? At this level? Wow. I hope they cut him today. 

Lol I don't think that would go over very well at Christmas dinner at the pegula house.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

54 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Well, you said they’re small...I’m just saying they’re not.  

 

Also, feel free to criticize next year if we have the same issues.   As of now, they’ve willingly neglected offense to gear up for this offseason to build around Allen.  

 

The 2019 offseason is massive for this organization.  

 

‘Why are people so accepting of this narrative?  We’ve spent money on offense.  We’ve brought in players.  Our choices have been bad.

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't even think that is a tough catch. That was a perfectly thrown ball. He didn't even get his hands on it it went straight through them. 

 

How Logan Thomas has spent three years on an NFL roster as a Tight End is a genuine mystery to me. He is absolutely and totally useless. He isn't even Arena League standard, NFL Europe standard..... XFL standard.... he is rubbish. Pure trash. 

That is an extremely tough catch. Come on! It wasn't a bad throw because Thomas was blanketed,  and that's the only place you can put it (alert: I am not blaming Allen). But that's a pass that's usually not caught. Coverage is huge too in that sort of situation. Give some credit to the defender, who was in position to swat at it in the unlikely the event he made that very difficult catch. 

[Thriftygamer83]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Doesnt Beane have a team of scouts whose job that’s supposed to be?

Zay is a Whaley hold over from his last draft class.  After year two it’s time to move on from Zay as for Foster give him another year for year two.  

[Magox]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

‘Why are people so accepting of this narrative?  We’ve spent money on offense.  We’ve brought in players.  Our choices have been bad.

Because that has largely been the case.  Aside from Benjamin who we all thought was a good trade who else did Beane put serious draft capital towards?  The only person I can think of is Allen and from my perspective that's going to be a homerun.

 

Who else?  Ivory? Deon Thompson?  5th rounder Teller? Bodine? Newhouse?  These are all stop gap players with the possible exception of Teller.

 

The meaningful FA acquisitions last year were both on the defensive side.  Their draft picks were mainly defensive.

 

That narrative is more than just a narrative, it is backed up by their actions.  

Edited December 24, 2018 by Magox

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Zay is a Whaley hold over from his last draft class.  After year two it’s time to move on from Zay as for Foster give him another year for year two.  

 

Mcdermott was making the picks.  Zay was the guy his WR coach wanted. 

 

Beane brought in Boldin, Benjamin, and Corey Coleman.  Drafted rRayRay over Equanimious St Brown.  Their player e v a l. on O is suspect.

[SCBills]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

‘Why are people so accepting of this narrative?  We’ve spent money on offense.  We’ve brought in players.  Our choices have been bad.

 

Who?..  midseason acquisition of KB when we were surprisingly in playoff contention last year?  

 

Chris Ivory?  Russell Bodine? 

 

QB’s - They took a while but found a solid backup and locked him down.  

 

WR’s - We’ve invested exactly one 2nd Round Pick as any legitimate capital to this position so far.  Through a revolving door of Corey Coleman, Terrelle Pryor, Isaiah McKenzie, Robert Foster etc, they’ve managed to find a useful 4/5 gadget player and a 2/3 WR. 

 

OL - We have one 2nd Round Pick and a 5th Round Pick as any draft capital.  The rest are just guys here to get us through this season. 

 

Theyve brought in bodies, obviously.   They haven’t exactly invested much....yet. 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SCBills

[simpleman]

It is so endemic to the Bills in particular that I find it hard to understand how the blame does not fall on the arsonists that are responsible for this dumpster fire, McBeane and the coaching staff.

 

They are the ones that assembled this team, and they coached this team. The lack of effort, the lack of concentration, the lack of discipline, and the ridiculous abundance of non contact penalties. The lack of basic football skills and essentials on not just offense side, but also the bad tackling skills, bad technique and mechanics on the defensive side.

 

They are the ones that created the cap hell we are in this year, and everyone will praise them next year when it is relieved. Meanwhile we are paying huge cap sums for a large number of decent players who are now playing on other teams. We still have a special teams coach that should have been fired way back in the Marrone era.

 

Sadly we are not even getting what little we are paying for in talent due to poor selection, poor preparation and poor coaching. There is an alarming lack of discipline and that extra effort that makes the difference between being over- achievers and just getting by. This team may be built to be choir boys off the field , but on the field they are more like the 3 Stooges.

 

McBeane , the front office and the coaching staff are ultimately responsible. Not just the players.

 

Okay let the excuses, the sugar coating,  and the spin begin!

Edited December 24, 2018 by simpleman

[Magox]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Mcdermott was making the picks.  Say was the guy his WR coach wanted. 

 

Beane brought in Boldin, Benjamin, and Corey Coleman.  Drafted rRayRay over Equanimious St Brown.  Their player e v a l. on O is suspect.

How much did it cost the Bill's to trade for Coleman?

 

What draft round selection was Ray Ray?

 

What did Boldin cost them?  And was Boldin truly expected to be a staple of this franchise?  

 

Since when are late round draft selections expected to be gamers?  Odds are very low.

 

The only player they misjudged on that truly cost them anything was Benjamin.  That was a whiff.  But last I recall all of Bill's nation including Pantger fans and NFL pundits thought that was a good move.  Clearly it wasn't.  I reject your premise

Edited December 24, 2018 by Magox

[stosh64]

Watch the Chiefs/Seahawks highlights from yesterday if you really want to get disgusted with our receiving corps.

https://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2018122314/2018/REG16/Chiefs@Seahawks?icampaign=scoreStrip-globalNav-2018122314

There were at least 5-6 receptions that I have yet to see one of our receivers make.

 

KB went 0-2, shocker.

[nedboy7]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is, I just got back and turned on the game.  This wasn't watching the whole game and picking out 5 random minutes.

 

All the negative Allen comments stupify me as case in point as ho hum a game Allen played yesterday (and yes 2 bad Ints), he was much better then Brady.  

 

I watch Brees, Willson, Rodgers, Rivers and all the top QB's in the league miss receivers and make bad passes, but every incompletion by Allen is analysed and pointed out.  

 

You are right. If the saints were to put Allen in. they wouldn’t skip a beat and march into the playoffs.  It doesn’t work that way.  He is a clueless overwhelmed kid right now 

Edited December 24, 2018 by nedboy7

[dollars 2 donuts]

2 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Our receivers lack basic skills.....like hand eye coordination

 

...and opposable thumbs.

[billsfan1959]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

That is an extremely tough catch. Come on! It wasn't a bad throw because Thomas was blanketed,  and that's the only place you can put it (alert: I am not blaming Allen). But that's a pass that's usually not caught. Coverage is huge too in that sort of situation. Give some credit to the defender, who was in position to swat at it in the unlikely the event he made that very difficult catch. 

That was not an easy catch; however, it was not an extremely tough catch.He was squared up to the ball and had to go vertical, not stretching or diving in either direction. In the end, it went right through his hands. That is a catch that an NFL caliber receiver should make 80% of the time...

[nedboy7]

8 minutes ago, Magox said:

How much did it cost the Bill's to trade for Coleman?

 

What draft round selection was Ray Ray?

 

What did Boldin cost them?  And was Boldin truly expected to be a staple of this franchise?  

 

Since when are late round draft selections expected to be gamers?  Odds are very low.

 

The only player they misjudged on that truly cost them anything was Benjamin.  That was a whiff.  But last I recall all of Bill's nation including Pantger fans and NFL pundits thought that was a good move.  Clearly it wasn't.  I reject your premise

 

I think you explained why they are responsible for this mess. 

[dave mcbride]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

That was not an easy catch; however, it was not an extremely tough catch.He was squared up to the ball and had to go vertical, not stretching or diving in either direction. In the end, it went right through his hands. That is a catch that an NFL caliber receiver should make 80% of the time...

It wasn't right through his hands; it was on his fingertips. Big difference. The high pass that Gronk missed and which ended up as a pick was a pass that went right through the hands,

[Dr. Who]

19 minutes ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Zay is a Whaley hold over from his last draft class.  After year two it’s time to move on from Zay as for Foster give him another year for year two.  

You really think Whaley was calling the shots in that draft?

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

You are right. If the saints were to put Allen in. they wouldn’t skip a beat and march into the playoffs.  It doesn’t work that way.  He is a clueless overwhelmed kid right now 

Nonsense

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

Nonsense

Nedboy has White Dwarf syndrome.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

It wasn't right through his hands; it was on his fingertips. Big difference. The high pass that Gronk missed and which ended up as a pick was a pass that went right through the hands,

[LSHMEAB]

I caught the end of the NO game. Receiver dropped a PERFECTLY placed ball by Brees on 3rd and long. Brees came back and converted on 4th. That's what the greats do. They overcome drops. Eventually Allen may get there. That's the hope.

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Look, that's in the realm of catchable, but it's in the fingertip region, he's leaping, the coverage is perfect, he's on the sideline, and the ball was thrown extremely hard. An elite receiver catches it 60 percent of the time, i think (although factor in Allen's velocity), and average receivers catch it less than half. The bottom line is that it's not an easy catch. And yes the Bills' receivers suck. I know that. But Allen has touch and accuracy issues at present that he needs to fix too. Again, though, i'm not saying that's a bad throw. Give the defender--who would have had a chance to swat it, a la leigh bodden, if he had hung on--some credit. He was in perfect position.

Edited December 24, 2018 by dave mcbride

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Look, that's in the realm of catchable, but it's in the fingertip region, he's leaping, the coverage is perfect, he's on the sideline, and the ball was thrown extremely hard. An elite receiver catches it 60 percent of the time, i think (although factor in Allen's velocity), and average receivers catch it less than half. The bottom line is that it's not an easy catch. And yes the Bills' receivers suck. I know that. But Allen has touch and accuracy issues at present that he needs to fix too.

If Logan Thomas' fingertips extend in the opposite direction of all other human beings and end at his palms, then, yes, it was off his fingertips. If not, it was a ball he should have come down with.

[MJS]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I know it is old and tired, but it is almost surreal.

 

I watched 3 minutes of the KC/Seattle game and watch A great TD reception by KC & then Lockett and Baldwin make 2 catches on the clinching drive that no Bills made all season.

 

All I ask is for the proverbial 50/50 ball to be caught, a leaping reception, a catch on what is not a perfect pass, an adjustment made and making that hard cut to the ball.

 

I am just beside myself.

 

Put Allen on KC and we'd be talking about an all time rookie season at QB. It's not just the receivers, it's also the ability to scheme offensively.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

If Logan Thomas' fingertips extend in the opposite direction of all other human beings and end at his palms, then, yes, it was off his fingertips. If not, it was a ball he should have come down with.

See my qualification above. Address the other difficulty and velocity issues. Those are real things that manifested on that play. 

[Fan in Chicago]

45 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Part of the reason that it didn’t work with Benjamin (and Funchess has the same problem) is that teams have gone to bigger corners to counteract the big receivers. That “he’s open when he’s not” doesn’t really exist anymore. The big guys that succeed all have speed (sub 4.5). The ones that don’t can’t separate. The other receivers that succeed have elite speed. You need to make chunk plays. It’s too hard to consistently win needing 12 play drives IMO. The most explosive offenses are the best teams (and that list no longer includes the Pats). 

Fair

Chunk plays definitely need to be part of a successful offense. But I sorta disagree that the grind-it-out offense does not have a part in the success of a team. While passing game is the current and possible future, the team with a good run based offense has a better chance of winning. In situations where the opposition has had a long drive and our D needs a rest, we get the opposition on a quick 3 and out and need the opposing QB to sit and stew for while, sealing a game.... Having the benefit of a extended drive aided by running and short/medium passing game can help a team gain/keep momentum and frustrate the opposition. As always, a balanced team has a better chance but I do agree that all (other) things being equal, the one with big play potential will likely win. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Fan in Chicago

[SinceThe70s]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I know it is old and tired, but it is almost surreal.

 

I watched 3 minutes of the KC/Seattle game and watch A great TD reception by KC & then Lockett and Baldwin make 2 catches on the clinching drive that no Bills made all season.

 

All I ask is for the proverbial 50/50 ball to be caught, a leaping reception, a catch on what is not a perfect pass, an adjustment made and making that hard cut to the ball.

 

I am just beside myself.

 

 

 

It is old and tired, you're like a pit bull on a soup bone. Doesn't make you wrong.

 

It wasn't just KC/Seattle, I saw a number of great catches in Steelers/Saints too.

[Magox]

9 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

I think you explained why they are responsible for this mess. 

Most rational fans and observers understand that Rome wasnt built in a day.  Beane has had one off season and draft to improve the team and he inherited one of the worst salary cap strapped organizations in the league and now we are one of the best positioned ones.

 

This is the year with 10 draft choices and what will most likely be 100 million in cap space to address the offense.  If this team doesnt look legit by the end of next year then I will agree with you until then any other opinion on the matter I consider to be tremendously uninformed 

[dave mcbride]

46 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Part of the reason that it didn’t work with Benjamin (and Funchess has the same problem) is that teams have gone to bigger corners to counteract the big receivers. That “he’s open when he’s not” doesn’t really exist anymore. The big guys that succeed all have speed (sub 4.5). The ones that don’t can’t separate. The other receivers that succeed have elite speed. You need to make chunk plays. It’s too hard to consistently win needing 12 play drives IMO. The most explosive offenses are the best teams (and that list no longer includes the Pats). 

Fair

Great post. Speed is so important. We need more of it.