Bills QB Josh Allen is changing skeptical minds. ---- Brady Quinn apparently prefers potential over results

[thebandit27]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm a believer in JA. But that is not to say that I'm confident that he is going to be a good franchise qb. I just don't know for sure whether he will ever be able to proficiently make the reads and go through progressions? Will he be able to make throws with the appropriate touch? The trap with judging a qb with such eye popping tools is that you don't know if the physical tools will be harnessed with the mental side of the position, the most important part of playing the position. 

 

What Barkley demonstrated in the Jet game is that if you know how to play the position and have good accuracy then for the short term even a qb with limited throwing talents can get by. With physical limitations you are not going to be a long term solution but you can see the difference between a more refined qb from a raw qb. 

 

Of course that's true 

 

I stand exactly where I did the day I finished my work-up on Allen: under the impression that he has a legitimate shot to become a franchise quarterback if he develops 

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

It's called truthful hyperbole, but I think you already knew that.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of hyperbole as a literary tool. But using “truthful” as a modifier is a total crock and I think you already know that.

 

But just so everyone is clear, you really have seen Allen stand in the pocket and deliver, right?

 

 

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Of course that's true 

 

I stand exactly where I did the day I finished my work-up on Allen: under the impression that he has a legitimate shot to become a franchise quarterback if he develops 

The trajectory is pointing in the right direction as his improved development has been visible since his return from injury. I think much of that has to do with Daboll and the infusion of speed into the lineup. 

 

But it is clear that he doesn’t trust his OLine.

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Yeah, I’m a big fan of hyperbole as a literary tool. But using “truthful” as a modifier is a total crock and I think you already know that.

 

But just so everyone is clear, you really have seen Allen stand in the pocket and deliver, right?

 

 

Yes. I have seen Allen stand in the pocket and deliver accurate throws. I would like to see more of it as opposed to bailing even when there's no pressure.

 

As I clearly stated before, I believe a better offensive line is needed to determine whether or not he's gonna improve on recognition. It would be unfair to judge him based on the porous line, but there are no guarantees. As has been stated, he's never been a high percentage guy. I feel like Hapless coined the "bunnies" phrase as it pertains to JA. Gotta hit the bunnies. I still think of that a college hoops phrase, but it works here as well.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Of course that's true 

 

I stand exactly where I did the day I finished my work-up on Allen: under the impression that he has a legitimate shot to become a franchise quarterback if he develops 

If this organization doesn't act with dispatch this offseason to upgrade the OL and acquire some younger, tough inside the tackle runners they will be making a big mistake. The Bills made a major investment to acquire this physically strapping qb. The major theme of our offseason is to put him in a position to succeed. 

 

I agree with K-9's assessment that it is obvious that he is steadily improving with his pocket presence as he plays more. His playing time this season should better equip him for next season. But he has a long road to go before he can become a consistent qb. 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The opposite is also true.  Believe it or not, it’s not the entire rest of the offense’s fault every time Allen makes a bad play.

 

this, like every qb debate, becomes a stupid political debate.  There are the “homers” who blame everyone else, ignore his faults, and make excuses.  He has 2 tds in a game, people say he will be a top 10 qb.  Then there are the “haters” who ignore how hard it is to be a rookie QBs, the awful offense (which the guys who picked Allen created), and say he will be a bust.

 

i try to remain in the middle.  I’m not a fan of upside, low production college qbs.  Especially in the top 10 of a draft.  I can clearly see the potential but I worry that we will keep talking about his upside while he struggles to consistently reach it.  But let’s hope that the guys which trade for Kelvin Benjamin and Jordan Matthews gets him real receivers so we can stop excuse making and just evaluate him. 

Agreed.  I keep saying Allen has a ways to go.  Has a lot to learn.  But he has brought some excitement to WNY

[PlayoffsPlease]

Do people think if McDermott had committed to Allen at the beginning of training camp and not wasted the time he did with McCarron and Peterman, that Allen might be further along now? 

[Stank_Nasty]

2 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Do people think if McDermott had committed to Allen at the beginning of training camp and not wasted the time he did with McCarron and Peterman, that Allen might be further along now? 

IMO, yes. 

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Do people think if McDermott had committed to Allen at the beginning of training camp and not wasted the time he did with McCarron and Peterman, that Allen might be further along now? 

Absolutely. I thought he should have started week 1. I also thought we should have rolled out with better camp competition to begin with so Allen had a bit more competition to earn his job. Him backed up a horrible Quarterback he was better than was like the worst developmental lesson possible IMO.

 

I guess none of it really mattered. The QB mess to start the season. The bad supporting caste. All that with Allen still balling out early in his career has me all the more impressed with him. He had all the excuses not to be impressive his rookie year and he's been more than impressive.

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Do people think if McDermott had committed to Allen at the beginning of training camp and not wasted the time he did with McCarron and Peterman, that Allen might be further along now? 

The bigger mistake that was made was not bringing in a veteran qb right from the start to tutor and guide him. I'm glad that he got playing time this year. It will certainly serve him well in his development. But if you recall when he first played he was somewhat overwhelmed. To a certain extent he getting hurt allowed him more time to sit back and observe and continue to learn so that when he got back in action he was better prepared to play. 

[CincyBillsFan]

26 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Do people think if McDermott had committed to Allen at the beginning of training camp and not wasted the time he did with McCarron and Peterman, that Allen might be further along now? 

 

Yes and it makes Allen's current progress all the more remarkable. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

8 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Do people think if McDermott had committed to Allen at the beginning of training camp and not wasted the time he did with McCarron and Peterman, that Allen might be further along now? 

hard to say really.   

 

Reps are reps.  Even if it's with the 3's.   Could he have gotten more chemistry with the starters?  Maybe.  Maybe his time with the 3's helped him build chemistry with the younger players and that might be a benefit down the road. 

 

As to starting week 1.  For a game and a half the team was getting pummeled until McD "took over" some of the defenses play calling.  How might that have effected anything? 

Josh was making mistakes early on that have diminished bit by bit.   

 

We'll never know.  

Week 15 fantasy streamers: Trust Josh Allen?

 

http://www.nfl.com/fantasyfootball/story/0ap3000000998792/article/week-15-fantasy-streamers-trust-josh-allen

 

Ceiling: Josh Allen vs. Detroit Lions

It's been ugly to watch through the air (44-of-88, 597 yards, 3:4 TD-to-INT ratio, 64.4 passer rating), but Allen's legs have carried him to a string of remarkable fantasy finishes over the last three weeks. With 13/99/1, 9/135, and 9/101/1 rushing lines, Allen has recorded QB4, QB2, and QB15 fantasy performances in this three-game span. Allen does not have a floor in the passing game -- which takes him out of starting consideration in shallow 10-team leagues -- but he currently leads all qualifying players in yards per carry (7.4). On rushing prowess alone, Allen is a top-15 QB play in Week 15.

 

Floor and Ceiling: Bills D/ST vs. Detroit Lions

Over the last month without Golden Tate (traded) and Marvin Jones (knee), Matthew Stafford has thrown just two passing scores and averaged an abysmal 6.1 YPA. In this span, Detroit is ninth-from-last in yards per drive and fifth-from-last in drives ending a score. The banged-up, low-ceiling Lions are in a brutal road spot in Week 15 against a Bills' secondary that is tied with the Bears for the second-lowest YPA allowed (6.4). Only the Texans, Ravens, Bears, and Jaguars have a better outlook this week than the Bills' D/ST.

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/12/11/18134293/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-quarterback-rushing-record-nfl

 

A few snippets 

 

The Bills’ receivers, currently led by Zay Jones, Robert Foster, and Isaiah McKenzie, have consistently struggled to get open in 2018. That, coupled with Allen’s rookie indecision, has given the first-year quarterback an average of 3.3 seconds before unleashing the ball downfield — by far the longest time to throw in the league. That extra time allows Buffalo’s targets to drag defenders downfield, opening the holes through which Allen has burst to claim his spot atop 2018’s quarterback rushing leaders.

 

 

What’s this meant for the Bills?

Allen is roughly the same size as Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger. And while the Pittsburgh passer has used his size, strength, and Weeble Wobble-esque balance has been paramount to his ability to extend plays, his running has always been a function to free up his aerial attack. With Allen, it’s different; his ability to run has been the balm meant to soothe the scars left by his inaccurate passing downfield.

[Boca BIlls]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't think it's his inaccurate passing as much as it is he's more comfortable running the ball than pulling the trigger on certain passes. The passing games extremely fast for him right now, he's making up for it with his athleticism.

I think it's more he trusts his legs more then the WRs hands.

[teef]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't buy that.

 

I think he knows he can make a certain play with his legs rather than rely on his arm to make the play.

i think he's just not seeing the plays yet, and decides to just go for the production.  i don't mind the running, but i think and hope that as the game slows down for him, so does the taking off.  it's just hard to argue against those large chunks of yards he allen picks up.

[Doc]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

This is probably too early to say but I'll say it anyway, I don't think Allen is ever going to be a great passer. He won't ever be a high completion % QB. But if the game continues to slow down for him and works at it he will be sufficient enough and along with his athleticism he will be more than fine. 

 

He won't be a high completion % QB...if his receivers keep dropping his passes. 

[teef]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

This is probably too early to say but I'll say it anyway, I don't think Allen is ever going to be a great passer. He won't ever be a high completion % QB. But if the game continues to slow down for him and works at it he will be sufficient enough and along with his athleticism he will be more than fine. 

i think that's very fair to say.  not that he'll be a bad passer, but he'll probably never be an elite one, and that's ok.  he can be productive with his arms and legs enough to get the job done.  as far as i know, guys like farve were never considered elite passers, but his ability to help carry a team was.  i think that's what we could have in allen.  

[cle23]

19 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

This is probably too early to say but I'll say it anyway, I don't think Allen is ever going to be a great passer. He won't ever be a high completion % QB. But if the game continues to slow down for him and works at it he will be sufficient enough and along with his athleticism he will be more than fine. 

 

The big issue is if he gets too comfortable running, and runs even when plays aren't there, or runs for 10 when there is a 30 yard pass there for the taking. 

 

I'm not saying that will happen. And his running has been crazy good. It's just a result of seeing Browns QBs in the past getting "used" to scrambling from pressure to the point that they scramble, pressure or not. 

 

Allen can develop as a passer,  but isn't very polished yet.

[thebandit27]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

If this organization doesn't act with dispatch this offseason to upgrade the OL and acquire some younger, tough inside the tackle runners they will be making a big mistake. The Bills made a major investment to acquire this physically strapping qb. The major theme of our offseason is to put him in a position to succeed. 

 

I agree with K-9's assessment that it is obvious that he is steadily improving with his pocket presence as he plays more. His playing time this season should better equip him for next season. But he has a long road to go before he can become a consistent qb. 

 

Agreed on all accounts.  As much as I'd like to see the team take the next step on defense by adding a premium pass rusher, CB2, and depth at LB, I'd be just fine if they spent the vast majority of their cap room and their premium draft picks on offense.

[Ronin]

18 hours ago, cashdude said:

I wonder if it is because you are a condescending douche bag?

 

LOL 

 

Gee, no violation of the ToS there.   

 

I get it cashdude, you among them apparently, seem to have a difficult time when presented with facts.  Unfortunately this country turns on mob-mentality opinions, that we often call democracy, the fact be damned.  

 

Yeah, yeah, I get it.  Condescending is relative.  Again, as with some of the others, I'm sorry, truly, that you have difficulty grappling with information that may conflict with opinions that you harbor that are contrary.  

 

Otherwise, really, facts are facts irrespective of how they're presented and have no emotions associated with them.  

 

I'm getting ready to lay out a few others, numbers only for the most part, just watch the reactions.  It's truly comical.  

[C.Biscuit97]

11 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Agreed.  I keep saying Allen has a ways to go.  Has a lot to learn.  But he has brought some excitement to WNY

I agree.  He is definitely not boring.  For the years while the Bills sucked, I almost was fine with them losing as long as they were fun to watch.  The last few games have been far from boring.

 

but it will be the boring, consistent play that will make separate him if he is to become a true franchise guy.  

[C.Biscuit97]

37 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He won't be a high completion % QB...if his receivers keep dropping his passes. 

Again, he’s not the only qb who deals with drops.  Why has he struggled with accuracy since high school?  All of his receivers just sucked.

 

a reason why Brady is so accurate is because he throws a very catchable football.  Allen has a cannon but touch is a huge part of being a great qb.  You don’t always need to fire a fastball. 

[thebandit27]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They can address those issues on defense while addressing the issues on offense at the same time, IMO. 

 

Oh I believe that they can as well; I'm saying that if they felt that they didn't want to go overboard and could only commit to certain improvements, then I'm fine "neglecting" pass rusher and other defensive polishing if it means addressing gaping holes in the offensive talent.

[CommonCents]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Oh I believe that they can as well; I'm saying that if they felt that they didn't want to go overboard and could only commit to certain improvements, then I'm fine "neglecting" pass rusher and other defensive polishing if it means addressing gaping holes in the offensive talent.

It would be a shame if this regime can’t figure out how to do both. I’m surprised you’d be fine with that kind of approach. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Again, he’s not the only qb who deals with drops.  Why has he struggled with accuracy since high school?  All of his receivers just sucked.

 

a reason why Brady is so accurate is because he throws a very catchable football.  Allen has a cannon but touch is a huge part of being a great qb.  You don’t always need to fire a fastball. 

 

Not really concerned with other QBs.  All I can comment on is the poor play from his supporting cast.  Taken in the context of him being a raw rookie QB with not even 10 games under his belt. 

[BillsVet]

18 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

If you listened to Allen's press conference; he's not looking to run.  Just a by product of him going through his progressions, no one open (his perception), and his internal clock and defensive rush coming to.  He said if he runs for 100 or runs for 2, he just wants to win.  People want him to quit running, but why?  If that is what the defense gives him, what is wrong with a 25 yard scamper and slide?  Baffles me when you have a QB who can create more time and space with his legs if needed and people want him to stop.  As his passing improves, man talking about one of the greatest dual threat QBs to come around.  Some of his hardest hits came on sacks where three players absolutely crushed him.

 

It's not that simple.  You can't conflate taking hits in the pocket with those on a run.  The former occur for multiple reasons (coverage, pass pro breakdown, not making reads, internal clock) but the latter happen when someone elects to leave the pocket.  Whatever the case, he can't take the hits he's been taken.   

 

Dual threat QBs don't work in the NFL.  Defenders are too fast and will prevent even the fleetest one to run free.  Besides, NFL defenses adjust, although that may take an off-season to see enough film to engineer a plan to stop them. 

 

It's a guarantee that if Allen runs 10+ times a game he's going to get knocked around more than if he stood in the pocket and delivered.  That said, I know he'll run less and have hopes those attempts will decrease as he becomes more familiar with the NFL game.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Agreed on all accounts.  As much as I'd like to see the team take the next step on defense by adding a premium pass rusher, CB2, and depth at LB, I'd be just fine if they spent the vast majority of their cap room and their premium draft picks on offense.

It's indisputable that the Bills need to improve the OL. Few will argue over something so blatantly obvious. But the market for free agent linemen is going to be challenging. There are a number of teams with Jacksonville most prominent and a host of others who will be vying for linemen and bidding up the price. My sense is that we will have to use both the draft and free agency to upgrade the line. 

 

As I said in the prior post the main focus of the offseason should be putting the young qb we invested in to be in the best position to succeed. First and foremost that is upgrading our OL. 

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Agreed on all accounts.  As much as I'd like to see the team take the next step on defense by adding a premium pass rusher, CB2, and depth at LB, I'd be just fine if they spent the vast majority of their cap room and their premium draft picks on offense.

Agreed. Something to note is that McDermott can clearly coach up an average defensive unit so that they're good enough, and the talent level is already pretty good to the point where it'll be solid next year even if they add no one. The issue is offense, offense, offense.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't think it's his inaccurate passing as much as it is he's more comfortable running the ball than pulling the trigger on certain passes. The passing games extremely fast for him right now, he's making up for it with his athleticism.

Very possible.  

 

We all are aware of the WR corps and lack of superstars.  

 

Progression is what we need to see.  And I think I’ve seen it.  

 

 

 

(Sure he still makes rookie mistakes- he’s a rookie). 

 

As for 2019.   The D has s solid 

 

Get a real #1 WR followed by 

Oline, RB, TE (or 2) 

Fix the offense then fill in tbe d with depth 

 

[John from Riverside]

Every time I write up a mock draft in my mind...I always work my way back to Jonah the OT

 

Drafting him fixes more then one problem on our offensive line and if we could just

 

Consistantly give Josh time

Run the friggen ball

 

I feel like we win a lot of these games we are losing.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

17 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Every time I write up a mock draft in my mind...I always work my way back to Jonah the OT

 

Drafting him fixes more then one problem on our offensive line and if we could just

 

Consistantly give Josh time

Run the friggen ball

 

I feel like we win a lot of these games we are losing.

He’s had time !!!  (The TT excuse) 

 

because hes scrambled so much in the backfield he’s had 3.3 seconds to make a pass.  Longest time in the NFL. 

Iirc 3.3 correctly 

[Dr. Who]

3 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

He’s had time !!!  (The TT excuse) 

 

because hes scrambled so much in the backfield he’s had 3.3 seconds to make a pass.  Longest time in the NFL. 

Iirc 3.3 correctly 

As you suggest, 3.3 seconds due to scrambling ability is different from 3 seconds due to a superior line. Qb standing relatively comfortable behind a superior line presumably in a better position to scan the field and make better decisions. Folks who continue to lament Allen's throw to Clay in the endzone seem to forget the Houdini act to even be in a position to make that throw.

[Billzfan23]

On 11/29/2018 at 6:57 PM, ShadyBillsFan said:

Yahoo Sports article 

 

Bills QB Josh Allen is changing some skeptical minds

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bills-qb-josh-allen-changing-skeptical-minds-215422581.html

 

While all his negatives were on display in Sunday’s win, his strengths — athleticism/size and strong arm — were too, and I’ve gotta tell you … I kinda like Allen now.

The biggest thing to me is his confidence and poise.  He has zero time, yet he never looks panicked.  He has a good command of the huddle and it genuinely looks like he's having fun.  I think he's going to develop into an exciting comeback player when he's down in games, and he's going to play well with the lead.  He has to stay healthy though, he's taken a lot of hits - but seems to be able to shrug those off like Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

[BUFFALOKIE]

On 12/12/2018 at 1:37 PM, cashdude said:

I wonder if it is because you are a condescending douche bag?

Or, maybe, just maybe, name calling is the bigger Dbag move?

On 12/12/2018 at 4:20 PM, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Pretty sure nobody cares what you're tired of...are you special or something?

You cared enough to reply. Just sayin.

 

Settle down gentlemen.

[BUFFALOKIE]

On 12/12/2018 at 7:58 PM, LSHMEAB said:

Yes. I have seen Allen stand in the pocket and deliver accurate throws. I would like to see more of it as opposed to bailing even when there's no pressure.

 

As I clearly stated before, I believe a better offensive line is needed to determine whether or not he's gonna improve on recognition. It would be unfair to judge him based on the porous line, but there are no guarantees. As has been stated, he's never been a high percentage guy. I feel like Hapless coined the "bunnies" phrase as it pertains to JA. Gotta hit the bunnies. I still think of that a college hoops phrase, but it works here as well.

Just like J allen is showing signs of improvement as a QB, this post gives me hope that you too may improve as a poster. 

[thebandit27]

Interesting stat that (IMO) illustrates what is currently setting Baker Mayfield apart from other rookies:

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Billzfan23 said:

The biggest thing to me is his confidence and poise.  He has zero time, yet he never looks panicked.  He has a good command of the huddle and it genuinely looks like he's having fun.  I think he's going to develop into an exciting comeback player when he's down in games, and he's going to play well with the lead.  He has to stay healthy though, he's taken a lot of hits - but seems to be able to shrug those off like Big Ben in Pittsburgh.

I see him the the same way. You can just tell he is different than the scrubs we have had at the position the last 20 years. Whether those were rookies or veterans. He oozes potential and at the same time the moment and game doesn't look to big for him. And coming from a small school, that was a serious question mark going into the draft. Not anymore. He has exceeded my expectations since coming back from injury. His passing needs to improve and I believe it will improve. The good thing is, even if he is only half the threat with his legs moving forward that we have seen in the last three games, his passing will only need to improve marginally. He won't need to be an elite passer to be successful if he has elite mobility. 

[IDBillzFan]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Interesting stat that (IMO) illustrates what is currently setting Baker Mayfield apart from other rookies:

 

 

Interesting that Mahomes isn't on that list on the higher side.

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Interesting stat that (IMO) illustrates what is currently setting Baker Mayfield apart from other rookies:

 

Really interesting...I think it would be even more enlightening if they were able to track where pressure is coming from and compare ratings again- even if just broken down into two categories (A&B gaps vs C/D gap). If you're getting consistent pressure up the middle it's much harder to deal with than outside pressure where you know your center and guards are solid and you can step up and deal...this is another one of those stats that would be a lot more insightful with just a bit more detail.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I’m betting more minds were changed this week 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/12/17/josh-allens-latest-chapter-is-his-best-to-date-buffalo-bills-lion-robert-foster-zay-jones-sean-mcdermott/amp/

 

Josh’s latest chapter ^

 

Bills QB Josh Allen was pretty raw and needed significant fundamental work coming out of Wyoming. Buffalo is looking for progress from their rookie quarterback, and yesterday’s win gave the team plenty of hope that what they’re trying to teach him—to take what the defense gives him and to protect himself when he runs—is starting to take. It showed yesterday, even with pedestrian numbers to show for it.

 

https://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/12/17/colts-players-only-meeting-ty-hilton-nfl-news-notes

Edited December 18, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan