If there was a Re Draft right now, who would you take, Allen or Darnold?

[njbuff]

Just now, DasNootz said:

3 weeks ago, weren't we saying the Bills were a historically bad offense as well?

 

Absolutely.

 

But as the season has played out, it is indeed the Jets who are the ones who are historically bad.

 

Foster and McKenzie (spelling) have added a nice speed dimension, which has loosened up the offense a little more.

[msw2112]

This is off-topic, but Foster was mentioned in the last post.  How did he suddenly develop hands?  He had been cut from the team, then magically re-signed before the Jests game and is now playing lights out.  He always had the speed, but couldn't hang onto a ball to save his life.  What happened?

[2003Contenders]

20 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

IMHO, Josh Allen was always about the long game. Darnold may have been a bit more NFL ready in terms of pedigree, but I think Josh Allen's potential is unbelievably high. To me Drafting Josh Allen was the equivalent of taking a real, unbroken stallion and turning him into one of the lite race horses of all time. It takes hard work, patience, dedication to the craft, and a refining ability to hone in on the talent and intangibles that can make him great. It also takes a nuanced comprehension that really NOBODY knew / knows if he possesses in that the ability to read and adjust to an NFL Defense pre-snap. 

 

Somewhere on the internet, a.k.a. Twitter-verse, a comparison was done of all the collegiate starts among the top 10 QB Rookies and Allen by far had the fewest. So he was the most raw, with the least exposure but with the greatest potential. IMO, the remains true. It will be a few years before we know what Josh Allen truly is or is not, but as of today with the progress I've seen, I'd take Allen for all the reasons listed above. 

 

If I were a team like the Ravens or 49ers, probably Darnold. Darnold is more NFL ready in total, or a year ahead in his development, but I just think if Allen puts it all together, we have the makings of one of the best QBs, and certainly the best Bills QB since (maybe ever) JK. 

 

I agree.

 

Rookies are by their very nature erratic. Recall that the game after the big one against the Vikings, Josh responded with a stinker against the Packers. This is going to happen from time to time, and I hope the fan base will be patient and not get overly hysterical when Allen inevitably has a bad game.

 

These rookie QBs are all in varying situations. If we believe all of the media reports that came out leading up to the draft, the Browns really were conflicted about Mayfield versus Allen. That is, the polish and savvy of Mayfield versus the off-the-charts potential (but overt rawness) of Allen. Cleveland decided for the good of the franchise to go the direction of Mayfield. And, so far that looks like they made the right decision.

 

But who knows how well that will pan out down the road? After all, the 2018 draft was not all about which QB would be best in 2018 -- but who may have the best chance being the face of the franchise for the next 10 years. The early returns prove that the naysayers were right about Mayfield being pro-ready. But there were other experts who believed that Rosen may be the most pro ready of them all. Rosen has decent weapons -- but a horrible offensive line. Then there is Darnold, who has also shown some potential but has also been brutal at times.

 

I, for one, never understood the consensus "boom or bust" prediction for Josh Allen heading into the draft. The boom is obvious given his crazy measureables and smarts.. However, the floor seems too high to fear that he could be a real bust (a la JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf). Even when Josh has struggled, he's never had that deer-in-the-headlights look. More impressive to me in the victory yesterday (even than the long run and the big pass plays) was his pocket presence. I am talking about the manner in which he stepped up in the pocket when he needed to, made subtle movements in the pocket or rolled out, and was willing to stare through the teeth of the defense and keep his eyes downfield. If the coaches and front office handle him the right way, he has a chance to be something special.

[DCOrange]

Before the draft, I had Lamar and Darnold rated ahead of Allen. Now, I would take Lamar and Mayfield ahead of Allen. I'd take Allen over Darnold now though, and have always preferred him over Rosen.

[Misterbluesky]

1 hour ago, billsfan11 said:

If there was a re draft at this point in the season, who would you take if you were in the Jets position, Allen or Darnold?

 

I know I’m biased but I would honestly say Allen.

 

Darnolds concerns going into the draft were turnovers, and he’s showing nothing to ease that concern.

 

Allen was obviously very raw coming from a small school so it was a high risk pick. Allen Is showing he can play in this league at a fairly high level and this is with probably the worst weapons in the league.

 

(I know it’s way too early to judge these QBs right now, this is just a hypothetical question)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Allen in a heartbeat.I can't wait to see him play in bitter cold weather.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Misterbluesky

[BigBuff423]

21 minutes ago, mannc said:

What about Darnold’s performance leads you to believe this?  IMO, there is zero actual evidence to support it.

 

When I think about Darnold, he's a guy who with a great supporting Defense OR a tremendous supporting Offensive cast, can win games. IMHO, Ravens Defense and ground game, along with John Brown, Willie Snead etc. or the 49ers Offense of Goodwin, Kittle, Breida, etc. all provide a type of supporting cast that mitigates his weaknesses. Additionally, for the 49ers, it's the California connection that helps him be even more at ease. NYC is a rough place to start a career, especially when you're constantly under the microscope. I'm NOT saying he's not a good kid or not even a decent QB in his current status, I'm merely saying I think on the aforementioned teams, his stats are even better and he looks even more the part of a franchise QB. To me, NYJ was one of the harder places to go for all the reasons I've mentioned, including the NY scrutiny. 

 

 

[Putin]

1 hour ago, unbillievable said:

Rookie QB rankings so far.

 

Mayfield

Allen

Jackson

Darnold

Rosen

 

According too ???

57 minutes ago, Coach55 said:

will post the answer at 4pm.  No one got it yet. 

 

Breez ??? 

[BillsFan130]

49 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Based on my work done prior to the draft I'd have taken Rosen. I still haven't seen enough from any QB to move me off of that spot.

You would still take Rosen over Allen and Darnold now?

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Rosen supposed to be the most pro ready QB coming out of this draft? He’s struggling big time to start his career but I understand it’s still very early

[Putin]

8 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Before the draft, I had Lamar and Darnold rated ahead of Allen. Now, I would take Lamar and Mayfield ahead of Allen. I'd take Allen over Darnold now though, and have always preferred him over Rosen.

We’re talking QB’s here not running backs 

[DCOrange]

1 minute ago, Putin said:

We’re talking QB’s here not running backs 

The reason I had Lamar as my #1 QB in the class and still do is because his running ability is so insanely special that even being a below average passer should be enough for him to be a good starting QB. With the exception of Baker, I don't think any of the other rookies are significantly better throwing the ball than Lamar is right now. In fact, I'm not sure they're better at all.

[BuffaloHokie13]

3 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

You would still take Rosen over Allen and Darnold now?

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Rosen supposed to be the most pro ready QB coming out of this draft? He’s struggling big time to start his career but I understand it’s still very early

Yes, I would.

[msw2112]

I'd take Allen over Darnold.  Before the draft, I was a pro-Rosen guy.  Now, I would take Allen over Rosen too.  I was not that high on Mayfield because I thought he was an Oklahoma/Big 12 system guy, but if you look at Mayfield and Mahomes, perhaps that moniker isn't so bad any more.  Maybe these guys can succeed now because the NFL is starting to implement a lot more college concepts into its offenses - spreading the field, RPO's, operating almost full-time out of the shotgun, etc.  Or maybe they are just really talented kids....Sometimes comparing these young rookies to current/past players can help predict how they might perform during their careers.  My first cut:

 

Allen = Newton and Big Ben

Mayfield = Brees

Jackson = Mike Vick and a better version of Tyrod

Darnold = ?

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, Putin said:

We’re talking QB’s here not running backs 

 

Just ask Wrecks... running QBs are the NFLs future 

[C.Biscuit97]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes. Now and forever. 

I mean it get it and it’s part of being a fan.  But it’s kinda insane.  Allen averages 141 yards passing/ game.  I thought the Darnold hype was out of control and he has a major issue with turnovers.  That said, he is asked to do much more than Allen. SD averages 10 more passing attempts per game.  

 

I would still take SD over Allen but he hasn’t exactly wowed me either.  Honestly, besides Mayfield, it seems like this class was completely overhyped.  That said, it is still so early and these guys all went to pretty bad teams (though we did make the playoffs).

Just now, msw2112 said:

I'd take Allen over Darnold.  Before the draft, I was a pro-Rosen guy.  Now, I would take Allen over Rosen too.  I was not that high on Mayfield because I thought he was an Oklahoma/Big 12 system guy, but if you look at Mayfield and Mahomes, perhaps that moniker isn't so bad any more.  Maybe these guys can succeed now because the NFL is starting to implement a lot more college concepts into its offenses - spreading the field, RPO's, operating almost full-time out of the shotgun, etc.  Or maybe they are just really talented kids....Sometimes comparing these young rookies to current/past players can help predict how they might perform during their careers.  My first cut:

 

Allen = Newton and Big Ben

Mayfield = Brees

Jackson = Mike Vick and a better version of Tyrod

Darnold = ?

 

No one likes it but Allen is a lot closer to Lamar as a passer than Newton or Big Ben.  

[msw2112]

I'd say Allen is a lot like a younger, more raw version of Newton.  Newton struggles with accuracy, even as a veteran.  But he is so big, athletic and mobile that he can create passing opportunities by avoiding the rush, and he has incredible arm strength, so he can make throws that others can't.  Newton came from a big-time program at Auburn, so was not nearly as raw as Allen coming into the league, and if my memory serves me correctly, Newton had one of the best rookie seasons ever for a QB.  Lamar isn't as big and strong as Newton or Allen, but from what I have seen (which is more his college play at Louisville - I have not watched his 2 starts with the Ravens), he is more athletic.

[mannc]

18 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

When I think about Darnold, he's a guy who with a great supporting Defense OR a tremendous supporting Offensive cast, can win games. IMHO, Ravens Defense and ground game, along with John Brown, Willie Snead etc. or the 49ers Offense of Goodwin, Kittle, Breida, etc. all provide a type of supporting cast that mitigates his weaknesses. Additionally, for the 49ers, it's the California connection that helps him be even more at ease. NYC is a rough place to start a career, especially when you're constantly under the microscope. I'm NOT saying he's not a good kid or not even a decent QB in his current status, I'm merely saying I think on the aforementioned teams, his stats are even better and he looks even more the part of a franchise QB. To me, NYJ was one of the harder places to go for all the reasons I've mentioned, including the NY scrutiny. 

 

 

I meant the part about him being more ready than JA.

[thenorthremembers]

Josh put on a good show yesterday with his feet, but I am still incredibly worried about his ability to throw the ball.   Right now I would take Darnold.  You cant get by on 52.5% completion rate for long.  

 

Hopefully Jackson comes to Earth a bit and stops winning games, its only been two, but if we take those games into account he looks like the 2nd best.

 

Mayfield

Jackson

Darnold

Allen

Rosen

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, msw2112 said:

I'd say Allen is a lot like a younger, more raw version of Newton.  Newton struggles with accuracy, even as a veteran.  But he is so big, athletic and mobile that he can create passing opportunities by avoiding the rush, and he has incredible arm strength, so he can make throws that others can't.  Newton came from a big-time program at Auburn, so was not nearly as raw as Allen coming into the league, and if my memory serves me correctly, Newton had one of the best rookie seasons ever for a QB.  Lamar isn't as big and strong as Newton or Allen, but from what I have seen (which is more his college play at Louisville - I have not watched his 2 starts with the Ravens), he is more athletic.

Ya I remember Cam's first game, he threw for like 400 yards or something? Crazy

Just now, thenorthremembers said:

Josh put on a good show yesterday with his feet, but I am still incredibly worried about his ability to throw the ball.   Right now I would take Darnold.  You cant get by on 52.5% completion rate for long.  

 

Hopefully Jackson comes to Earth a bit and stops winning games, its only been two, but if we take those games into account he looks like the 2nd best.

 

Mayfield

Jackson

Darnold

Allen

Rosen

I see what you're saying, but hard to judge Allen's stats yesterday. 

 

Completed 2 3rd and longs that got called back on penalties, and should at least had 2 or 3 more completions as he threw perfect strikes and they resulted in drops.

 

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I'd say Allen is a lot like a younger, more raw version of Newton.  Newton struggles with accuracy, even as a veteran.  But he is so big, athletic and mobile that he can create passing opportunities by avoiding the rush, and he has incredible arm strength, so he can make throws that others can't.  Newton came from a big-time program at Auburn, so was not nearly as raw as Allen coming into the league, and if my memory serves me correctly, Newton had one of the best rookie seasons ever for a QB.  Lamar isn't as big and strong as Newton or Allen, but from what I have seen (which is more his college play at Louisville - I have not watched his 2 starts with the Ravens), he is more athletic.

Newton was literally the best player in college in the best conference, won a NC, after winning a JUCO NC, and set Rmroplie passing records.

 

i think people severely underrate how good Newton is. 

[blitzboy54]

Mahomes

[Putin]

9 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

The reason I had Lamar as my #1 QB in the class and still do is because his running ability is so insanely special that even being a below average passer should be enough for him to be a good starting QB. With the exception of Baker, I don't think any of the other rookies are significantly better throwing the ball than Lamar is right now. In fact, I'm not sure they're better at all.

FIRST and foremost > A QB has to be able to stand tall in the pocket and deliver the ball ,

when your behind in the 4th Q with 2:00 min remaining do I really need to keep going ???

And BTW as far as running abilities for a QB I don’t need a Barry Sanders I’m MORE then pleased from what I’ve seen in Allen yesterday 

[DisplacedBillsFan]

I would take Allen over Darnold.

 

On a similar note, but completely different question; there are rumors that Aaron Rodgers will likely not finish his career in GB, and even that he may have already, or soon will, request a trade. Some (random chatter I hear on sports radio) feel he has about 4 to 5 years left and that his skills are diminishing, though his numbers remain solid (TD to INT ratio is ridiculous - shout out to Poyer). I think it is apparent he looks better now (these past two games) since he his healthy and has mostly regained his full mobility. 

 

Obviously this is hypothetical, which requires some assumptions, but assume Rodgers wants out of GB and does have 4 good years left (similar level of play as this season). Would you trade Allen straight up for four years of Aaron Rodgers producing at the level he is currently demonstrating he can play at? It is a complete unknown what exactly Allen will achieve, but for the sake of this question, assume he continues to progress and display signs of positive development.

 

I do not mean to hijack this thread, but it is all "would you rather" QB discussion, and I did not see much need for a completely new thread.

Edited November 26, 2018 by DisplacedBillsFan
Additional Statement

[John from Riverside]

11 minutes ago, blitzboy54 said:

Mahomes

oh stick a sock in it junior

[BobChalmers]

2 hours ago, Codyny13 said:

I think now he is def, but pre-draft I think a lot of people were iffy on him. His size or whatever.

 

This is true, but I was on for Mayfield anyway - I just saw him look too amazing in too many games in college.  Crazy accuracy.  His size IS an issue, and I didn't think any of the QBs was an across the board lock, but Mayfield was certainly the most impressive on the field and my #1, followed by Allen and Rosen.  Darnold never did it for me - too many dumb turnovers and unimpressive throws in big games.

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Newton was literally the best player in college in the best conference, won a NC, after winning a JUCO NC, and set Rmroplie passing records.

 

i think people severely underrate how good Newton is. 

 

Newton also played on a great team in college.   I can't speak for everyone, but I am comfortable saying he's not nearly as good as HE thinks he is.

Edited November 26, 2018 by BobChalmers

[nedboy7]

26 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Newton was literally the best player in college in the best conference, won a NC, after winning a JUCO NC, and set Rmroplie passing records.

 

i think people severely underrate how good Newton is. 

 

Allen won a game. So you know. He is better than newton. 

[BuffBillsForLife]

If I were ranking the rookie QBs at this point it would be Mayfield >>> Allen > Darnold > Rosen

 

JMO

[DCOrange]

36 minutes ago, Putin said:

FIRST and foremost > A QB has to be able to stand tall in the pocket and deliver the ball ,

when your behind in the 4th Q with 2:00 min remaining do I really need to keep going ???

And BTW as far as running abilities for a QB I don’t need a Barry Sanders I’m MORE then pleased from what I’ve seen in Allen yesterday 

Again, refer to my last sentence in which I said I'm not sure Allen, Darnold, or Rosen are better passers right now either. All 3 of those guys have been objectively bad passers this season. Lamar has statistically been better than all of them even after removing all rushing numbers. Obviously it's a small sample size with all of them and an even smaller sample size with Lamar, but the only reason I'm feeling any less confident in ranking Lamar as my #1 QB prospect last offseason is because Baker has been better than advertised IMO. The other 3 haven't done anything to make me feel less confident in taking Lamar over them.

Edited November 26, 2018 by DCOrange

[mjt328]

Very tough question.  I actually think it was easier to separate them back in April.

 

Prior to the draft, I liked them in the following order:

1.  Sam Darnold

2.  Josh Rosen

3.  Baker Mayfield

4.  Josh Allen

 

Darnold and Rosen have done about what I expected as rookies.  But Mayfield and Allen have done much better than I expected.

All four guys have flashed.  All four guys have struggled.  It's way too early to tell.

 

 

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

35 minutes ago, DisplacedBillsFan said:

I would take Allen over Darnold.

 

On a similar note, but completely different question; there are rumors that Aaron Rodgers will likely not finish his career in GB, and even that he may have already, or soon will, request a trade. Some (random chatter I hear on sports radio) feel he has about 4 to 5 years left and that his skills are diminishing, though his numbers remain solid (TD to INT ratio is ridiculous - shout out to Poyer). I think it is apparent he looks better now (these past two games) since he his healthy and has mostly regained his full mobility. 

 

Obviously this is hypothetical, which requires some assumptions, but assume Rodgers wants out of GB and does have 4 good years left (similar level of play as this season). Would you trade Allen straight up for four years of Aaron Rodgers producing at the level he is currently demonstrating he can play at? It is a complete unknown what exactly Allen will achieve, but for the sake of this question, assume he continues to progress and display signs of positive development.

 

I do not mean to hijack this thread, but it is all "would you rather" QB discussion, and I did not see much need for a completely new thread.

I mean I enjoyed our victory over the 3-7 Jags but are posters really asking if they would trade Allen for Rodgers???? I didn’t drink enough in celebration apparently.

32 minutes ago, BobChalmers said:

 

This is true, but I was on for Mayfield anyway - I just saw him look too amazing in too many games in college.  Crazy accuracy.  His size IS an issue, and I didn't think any of the QBs was an across the board lock, but Mayfield was certainly the most impressive on the field and my #1, followed by Allen and Rosen.  Darnold never did it for me - too many dumb turnovers and unimpressive throws in big games.

 

Newton also played on a great team in college.   I can't speak for everyone, but I am comfortable saying he's not nearly as good as HE thinks he is.

He’s been the MVP, led his team to a 15-1 record and the SB, and is consistently in playoff contention with less than stellar receivers.  If Josh Allen comes close to that, he is a great pick.  

[msw2112]

1 hour ago, msw2112 said:

I'd say Allen is a lot like a younger, more raw version of Newton.  Newton struggles with accuracy, even as a veteran.  But he is so big, athletic and mobile that he can create passing opportunities by avoiding the rush, and he has incredible arm strength, so he can make throws that others can't.  Newton came from a big-time program at Auburn, so was not nearly as raw as Allen coming into the league, and if my memory serves me correctly, Newton had one of the best rookie seasons ever for a QB.  Lamar isn't as big and strong as Newton or Allen, but from what I have seen (which is more his college play at Louisville - I have not watched his 2 starts with the Ravens), he is more athletic.

 

Let me be clear that I am not saying that Josh Allen is not, right now, as good as Cam Newton today, not as good as Cam Newton was his rookie year, or that he will have the same amount of success as Netwon has had in the NFL.  There is just far too small of a sample size to predict that now.  What I was doing in my first post was comparing each of the top rookie QBs this year with the established veteran who they most resemble in terms of physical stature, skill set, future potential if they pan out, etc.  I believe that the best comparison for Allen is Newton.  Another is Big Ben, although I think Allen is more athletic than Ben (as is Newton) and is not as accurate a passer as Ben, at this point (as is Newton).  If Allen pans out and has a career like either one of these guys, the Bills will be pretty fortunate.  I do think that Allen is more of a "gamer" than Newton.  Newton seems to sulk when things don't go well and I will never forget his unwillingness to jump in to the pile to go after a fumble in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl when his team was down less than a TD.  I was pulling for Carolina (and Newton) to beat Denver and they just couldn't get it done.

Edited November 26, 2018 by msw2112

[OrtonHearsaWho]

I think it's way too early to answer this with much certainty but so far I am extremely pleasantly surprised by JA's athleticism.  I knew that he was athletic but not as much as he has shown so far.  So far he seems to compare well with Cam Newton and if that continues I'd be pretty happy.

[Big Gun]

3 hours ago, Coach55 said:

Early stats - how about this crappy QB for his first 3 years... name that QB

 

G	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate
1	0	15	27	55.6	221	1	3.7	0	0	40	8.2	8.9	14.7	221	94.8
16	16	320	526	60.8	3284	17	3.2	16	3	52	6.2	5.5	10.3	205.3	76.9
11	11	205	356	57.6	2108	11	3.1	15	4.2	68	5.9	4.6	10.3	191.6	67.5

Brees

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

I think it's way too early to answer this with much certainty but so far I am extremely pleasantly surprised by JA's athleticism.  I knew that he was athletic but not as much as he has shown so far.  So far he seems to compare well with Cam Newton and if that continues I'd be pretty happy.

Newton passed for 4,000 yards, completed 60% of his passes, had 700 yards rushing, and 14 rush tds as a rookie on a team that was 1-15 the year before him. 

[whatdrought]

So far my belief that Mayfield was #1, Allen was #2, Darnold was #3, and Rosen was #4 seems to be making me look smart (though Darnold and Rosen seem a wash just now) but with my luck it will invert. 

[OrtonHearsaWho]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Newton passed for 4,000 yards, completed 60% of his passes, had 700 yards rushing, and 14 rush tds as a rookie on a team that was 1-15 the year before him. 

 

I don't mean that the stats compare to Newton, I jus think to the eye he compares to Newton.  Huge strong dude that can run and bounce off of tacklers, cannon for an arm with some accuracy issues.

 

Like I said it's early so who really knows but I can't really think of a better player comparison at this stage.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Based on my work done prior to the draft I'd have taken Rosen. I still haven't seen enough from any QB to move me off of that spot.

Definitely too early to tell, but man does Rosen look shaky. His feet are a mess and it almost looks like he's elongated his motion/release for some reason. 

[Augie]

I felt it was Darnold before the draft, and I won’t change my mind with such a small sample size. But this is encouraging so far.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....sorry but they ALL have a long way to go before any comparative analysis or declaration.....despite those TBD'ers and their crystal bawls who said we "definitely took the WRONG Josh"......during Kaep's rise through the ranks, an NFL exec was quoted as saying" 50 games in is a fair window of assessment"....sounds like we are a "tad early"??........

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

....sorry but they ALL have a long way to go before any comparative analysis or declaration.....despite those TBD'ers and their crystal bawls who said we "definitely took the WRONG Josh"......during Kaep's rise through the ranks, an NFL exec was quoted as saying" 50 games in is a fair window of assessment"....sounds like we are a "tad early"??........

100 percent it’s too early. Just having some fun and curious to hear some opinions

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, billsfan11 said:

100 percent it’s too early. Just having some fun and curious to hear some opinions

 

 

...I know and respect you're having some fun bud......but there are others who STILL believe NOW that we effed this up....for some TBD'ers, seven games is the definition of a "career"....higher math..........