Nice game but Allen needs to pass

[Matt_In_NH]

18 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

If you are hung up on the stat line for this game as an indication of bad play or his potential in the future, then you clearly see only what you want to see. 

There was absolutely nothing in the game yesterday that indicates Allen doesn't have the mental/cerebral abilities to be a good QB in the NFL. 

 

I want to see the the Bills with a franchise QB.   I want to see the Bills win the division, playoff games, super bowls.  I know the best way to do that consistently is with a franchise QB.   I am not hung up on stats but I am realistic and objective, some of that involves stats.  People get so emotional if there is any critical analysis of Josh Allen, its annoying.

 

 

[dollars 2 donuts]

Side note:  one of these times we are going to see him sweep out, dig hard for the line of scrimmage on an apparent run and then launch it to a wide open WR down field.

 

...I love it.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

I want to see the the Bills with a franchise QB.   I want to see the Bills win the division, playoff games, super bowls.  I know the best way to do that consistently is with a franchise QB.   I am not hung up on stats but I am realistic and objective, some of that involves stats.  People get so emotional if there is any critical analysis of Josh Allen, its annoying.

 

 

I am not emotional and you have every right to your opinion, critical or otherwise. My point was that the very first thing you quoted from the game yesterday was the stat line and how that stat line would not win divisions or playoff games, and was not reflective of franchise QBs, or that kind of potential. IMO, (1) that stat line didn't accurately reflect the play on the field yesterday and (2) that stat line literally has no relevance to how good or bad Allen will be in the future. There has been plenty to criticize about Allen's game this season; and there were things in yesterday's game that could be legitimately criticized (as with virtually every player in virtually every game); however, yesterday's game was not the game to use as any sort of evidence that he cannot become a franchise QB. That is my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[Teddy KGB]

38 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

This is pretty much how I feel about Allen.  Its fun when he does what he did yesterday, but Tyrod could do that.  

 

He scored 3 points.     He definetly could not do that.    Gotta stick with facts when making points.  

[HeHateMe]

15 hours ago, bigK14094 said:

At this point, Allen is TT V2.0  another running Qb.  That has to change if the rook is to be a franchise QB!

He's a rookie... Tyrod had been in the league for what 6 years before playing?  I'd say his game yesterday was better than peak Tyrod for the Bills.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, mattynh said:

I was talking about the first 3rd down of the game, it was 3rd and 3.

 

His stats look a lot like the guy we traded in the offseason to me.  Minus the completion percentage.  If he processes well why is he completing 52% of his passes?   Many passes are easy completions if you process well.  I guess some of it is his poor ability to throw shorter passes, that needs to get addressed.

 

I think the throws Allen makes are different throws than Taylor would make.  I didn't see Taylor making some of the anticipation throws and throws into tight coverage that Allen will make.

 

The thing is, Taylor had 3 full years as a starter and the support of a fantastic run game.  What you saw is what you were gonna get. 

Allen is a rookie.

 

You are correct that Allen needs to become more accurate on the short throws, and will live or die as an NFL QB based on whether he develops that skill.

 

I do think if Allen had better WR he'd have better completion percentage.

 

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, Teddy KGB said:

 

He scored 3 points.     He definetly could not do that.    Gotta stick with facts when making points.  

 

One Jags team went to the AFC championship game and the other is 3-8.  They are entirely different teams.  But that is wildly beside the point. 

 

The point is Tyrod can get you one read throws, approx 200 yards a game, and a bunch of clutch scrambles.  Sure, he didn't do it in one game last year, but that was overwhelming his M.O while he was a starting QB.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

The man is early in his development still, do we have any patience here?

 

No.  Was that a trick question?

 

[jrober38]

5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Cam threw for 4,000 yards with 800 yards rushing as a rookie and had 35 total touchdowns in 16 games. I think this is a very optimistic projection.

 

At this stage Kapernick seems more realistic, due to Allen being a more effective runner than passer. Allen makes plays with his feet, but his efficiency as a passer isn't very good. He's a lot like JP Losman in the sense that he can provide the big plays, but he can't dink and dunk and keep the offense moving and control the clock. 

 

At some point defenses will figure out how to slow down his running, or he'll get hurt (like essentially every running QB does). Once that happens, he'll need to progress dramatically as a passer if he's going to make it in this league. All the top QBs are top players because they're elite passers and Allen has miles to go in that department. 

 

Yesterday's game was fun to watch. The fight, and ensuing heart the team showed were great. 

 

Allen made some nice throws, and he made some bad ones. He relies on his running ability to bail him out of situations when he can't find an open receiver, and I'm not sure that's sustainable long term. Running QBs don't have much long term success in the NFL, and at some point you need to find someone who can throw for 4,000 yards a season. 

 

I'm not going to harp on his stat line because he did what was needed to win, but I don't think that model for success will have sustained success for him in the NFL. At some point he'll need to learn to operate from the pocket and make more consistent plays with his arm. 

[Teddy KGB]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

One Jags team went to the AFC championship game and the other is 3-8.  They are entirely different teams.  But that is wildly beside the point. 

 

The point is Tyrod can get you one read throws, approx 200 yards a game, and a bunch of clutch scrambles.  Sure, he didn't do it in one game last year, but that was overwhelming his M.O while he was a starting QB.  

 

This jags team stomped the Pats and shut the Steelers out for 3 quarters 

 

“He didn’t do it for one game last year” ? 

 

Did you miss half the season ?  You know we played the Saints, Panthers, Bengals, Pats, etc etc etc Right ? 

 

Fake facts don’t fly sir, you gotta reel it in.  

 

Have a good day.  I can’t go back and forth with you on this.  

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cam threw for 4,000 yards with 800 yards rushing as a rookie and had 35 total touchdowns in 16 games. I think this is a very optimistic projection.

 

At this stage Kapernick seems more realistic, due to Allen being a more effective runner than passer. Allen makes plays with his feet, but his efficiency as a passer isn't very good. He's a lot like JP Losman in the sense that he can provide the big plays, but he can't dink and dunk and keep the offense moving and control the clock. 

 

At some point defenses will figure out how to slow down his running, or he'll get hurt (like essentially every running QB does). Once that happens, he'll need to progress dramatically as a passer if he's going to make it in this league. All the top QBs are top players because they're elite passers and Allen has miles to go in that department. 

 

Yesterday's game was fun to watch. The fight, and ensuing heart the team showed were great. 

 

Allen made some nice throws, and he made some bad ones. He relies on his running ability to bail him out of situations when he can't find an open receiver, and I'm not sure that's sustainable long term. Running QBs don't have much long term success in the NFL, and at some point you need to find someone who can throw for 4,000 yards a season. 

 

I'm not going to harp on his stat line because he did what was needed to win, but I don't think that model for success will have sustained success for him in the NFL. At some point he'll need to learn to operate from the pocket and make more consistent plays with his arm. 

 

The projection isn't a numbers thing.  It's a player type comparison.  His reliance on the run is a function of the supporting cast he's currently saddled with that we should expect to improve in 2019 and beyond. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

This jags team stomped the Pats and shut the Steelers out for 3 quarters 

 

“He didn’t do it for one game last year” ? 

 

Did you miss half the season ?  You know we played the Saints, Panthers, Bengals, Pats, etc etc etc Right ? 

 

Fake facts don’t fly sir, you gotta reel it in.  

 

Have a good day.  I can’t go back and forth with you on this.  

 

Its troubling to me that you don't see how incoherent this response is.  

[oldmanfan]

He's a rookie QB that has played about six games now.  HE's showing progress.  Still a lot of work to be done but had a good game yesterday.  Is it Ok to be happy about that?

[Teddy KGB]

11 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Its troubling to me that you don't see how incoherent this response is.  

 

Google will help you with your “one” game problem.      

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Google will help you with your “one” game problem.      

 

I literally have no idea what your point is. 

 

Thats what makes this so incoherent.  You haven't made a coherent argument.  I can't event construct one from what you have said.  

 

[TheElectricCompany]

27 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cam threw for 4,000 yards with 800 yards rushing as a rookie and had 35 total touchdowns in 16 games. I think this is a very optimistic projection.

 

Allen has stats like 2011 Tim Tebow. Not ideal, but it is what it is. 

Give me more of those bombs to Foster, because that was sickkkkkkkkkkk

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by TheElectricCompany

[HappyDays]

37 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

One Jags team went to the AFC championship game and the other is 3-8.  They are entirely different teams.  But that is wildly beside the point. 

 

They are definitely not entirely different teams. They are comprised of pretty much the exact same players on defense. The big difference is they lost two starting receivers and Bortles somehow is playing even worse than last year. But that has nothing to do with Allen's performance against a defense that has been top 5 this year, in his first game back from injury, with a bunch of no-name receivers and a poor offensive line. It was impressive any way you slice it. Elite, no, but he showed signs that he could be a great QB in the future.

[IDBillzFan]

I'll never understand why some people measure a quarterback's success by how many 300 yard games he has. Having big breasts doesn't make you pretty.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

16 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

Great team win and Allen made some huge throws and ran for over 100yards,  end of the day i do not want my franchise QB focused on running the football.  For Allen to become a great franchise QB he needs to throw the ball and more plays to need to be called to throw the ball and not run.  This is a passing league, and ground and pound is for losers  the great teams pass for 300yards on weekly basis and we struggle to make it to 200 yards. Yes the receivers suck but we need to stay committed to becoming a pass first team.  Even finishing this season focused on passing the ball and establishing ourselves as a pass first team will help signing potential free agent WR'S.

 

 

 

I completely disagree and I hope they continue to game plan like this, Allen isn't taking off because he doesn't trust his arm, he takes off because that's another weapon in his arsenal. I truly feel like I'm watching Big Ben all over again, this is exactly how the Steelers brought up Big Ben, his passing stats his 1st couple years with the Steelers weren't much to look at (2,621 yards, 17 TD, 11 INT- 2004, 2,385, 17 TD, 9 INT- 2005) but it was Roethlisbergers ability to elude sacks run around with his feet and make the necessary throw to get in position to score or kick a FG that made him the QB he is today. This myth that he has to throw all over to be a successful QB is just wrong, this coaching staff is doing exactly the right things to progress Allen for the future, getting wins will help any young QB's mind and that should be the only goal.

[Billsfan1972]

9 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Allen has stats like 2011 Tim Tebow. Not ideal, but it is what it is. 

Give me more of those bombs to Foster, because that was sickkkkkkkkkkk

 

Ohhhhh that's harsh!!!!  

 

Blame it again on bad pass routes & unimaginative play calls.  

 

Allen did the best that he could given the scheme.  I will however confirm there were 4-5 bad passes, iffset by a number of nice ones.

[blacklabel]

It's a part of his game the Jaguars obviously weren't keyed in on so he exploited that. Even after he picked up first downs and chunks of yards, they still really weren't putting a spy on him. If it's there, take it. Yeah, sure, we don't want the kid getting hit frequently and risking another injury but he's an athlete and running is part of his game. A couple of his runs were by design, not all of them were scrambles. 

 

Kid throws for a TD, runs for another, picks up several first downs with his feet (also hit two perfect throws for first downs that were called by back dumb OL penalties) and accounts for 259 total yards and didn't turn the ball over... yet here we are with people saying, "Get yards, score points, but do it THIS WAY." 

 

He got the job done today, plain and simple.

[IDBillzFan]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They are definitely not entirely different teams. They are comprised of pretty much the exact same players on defense. The big difference is they lost two starting receivers and Bortles somehow is playing even worse than last year. But that has nothing to do with Allen's performance against a defense that has been top 5 this year, in his first game back from injury, with a bunch of no-name receivers and a poor offensive line. It was impressive any way you slice it. Elite, no, but he showed signs that he could be a great QB in the future.

 

He's progressing, which is all anyone can expect or hope for this year. Go into the offseason knowing you have your quarterback, and the cap room/picks for next year can be for OL, WR, etc.

[C.Biscuit97]

Isn’t Josh Allen essentially Lamar Jackson?  And that’s honestly what I expected as I thought both were very raw.

 

allen is much faster than I thought.  And he did what he needed to do to win.  But you aren’t going to be able to win consistently running the ball as a qb.  But he made plays when he needed to.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They are definitely not entirely different teams. They are comprised of pretty much the exact same players on defense. The big difference is they lost two starting receivers and Bortles somehow is playing even worse than last year. But that has nothing to do with Allen's performance against a defense that has been top 5 this year, in his first game back from injury, with a bunch of no-name receivers and a poor offensive line. It was impressive any way you slice it. Elite, no, but he showed signs that he could be a great QB in the future.

 

The defense has been really good, and they do have the same players, but for as well as they have done, they have not been as dominant as they were last year.  

 

But that wasn't really my point.  He did play really well.  But the things that will turn him into a franchise QB are not the things he excelled at yesterday-multiple reads, throwing guys open, etc.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

One Jags team went to the AFC championship game and the other is 3-8.  They are entirely different teams.  But that is wildly beside the point. 

 

They aren't as different on D as you might believe.  One Jags team had the #2 overall defense.  This Jags team is #8 - still a top 10 D on PA. 

#3 on yds vs the pass, but only #17 vs the rush - yet we couldn't really rush on them.  (That's actually very similar to what they were last year - #1 passing, #21 vs the rush)

 

The point is they're a pretty fierce pass D with the ability to disguise coverages.  Allen did OK.  Teams have been averaging 206 passing ypg vs the Jags, and that's with NE and KC hanging up 370-400 yds on them (and the Jets - what happened there?).   Eagles 265 yds.  The rest of the teams they faced have been <200 yds passing, often <150 (NYG, Titans, Houston, Dallas). 

Context: by passing for 160 yds, Allen succeeded in the passing game vs the Jags to about the same extent as Mariota, Watson, and Prescott.

A big difference for the Jags this year is that last year, they had the #1 rushing game in the league behind Fournette, who played in 13 games.

This year so far he's played in 4 games plus 2 half-games, been marginally effective in 3 of them

Frankly, if he didn't act like a fool yesterday he would likely have continued to run over us and we lose.

 

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

The point is Tyrod can get you one read throws, approx 200 yards a game, and a bunch of clutch scrambles.  Sure, he didn't do it in one game last year, but that was overwhelming his M.O while he was a starting QB.  

 

The point is Tyrod did that after 3 years as a starter and 6 years in the league.  Allen is a rookie.  If it's still his MO after 3 seasons, I'll get witcha.

The other point is that yesterday, in his first game back, Allen was facing one of the top pass Ds in the league - the same pass D that shut our pass game down completely last year, and yes they are still an elite pass D this year.

9 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

I'll never understand why some people measure a quarterback's success by how many 300 yard games he has. Having big breasts doesn't make you pretty.

 

Great analogy.  Just like big breasts, lots of 300 yd games do attract a lot of attention to a QB, even if his team loses.

[TheElectricCompany]

10 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Ohhhhh that's harsh!!!!  

 

Blame it again on bad pass routes & unimaginative play calls.  

 

Allen did the best that he could given the scheme.  I will however confirm there were 4-5 bad passes, iffset by a number of nice ones.

 

We all recognize that the supporting cast needs improvement. 

The "unimaginative calls", you need an appropriate scheme AND talent. I'm not sold on Daboll, but he's trying to make chicken salad out of chicken, well, you know. 

Allen made some good throws, but he needs to develop more consistency throwing the ball. It's 2018, you have elite QBs throwing for 70% completion and 9 YPA. His running ability (he's more Tebow than Russel Wilson or Cam Newton) is a "nice to have". 

Edited November 26, 2018 by TheElectricCompany

[CincyBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Isn’t Josh Allen essentially Lamar Jackson?  And that’s honestly what I expected as I thought both were very raw.

 

allen is much faster than I thought.  And he did what he needed to do to win.  But you aren’t going to be able to win consistently running the ball as a qb.  But he made plays when he needed to.

 

Allen has much better arm talent then Jackson. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Isn’t Josh Allen essentially Lamar Jackson?  And that’s honestly what I expected as I thought both were very raw.

 

allen is much faster than I thought.  And he did what he needed to do to win.  But you aren’t going to be able to win consistently running the ball as a qb.  But he made plays when he needed to.

he made plays both with his feet and arm. of course most of the plays he made with his arm were either dropped or the play was called back by a penalty.

 

no, I see no comparison to jackson, at all.

[CincyBillsFan]

54 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

At some point defenses will figure out how to slow down his running, or he'll get hurt (like essentially every running QB does). Once that happens, he'll need to progress dramatically as a passer if he's going to make it in this league. All the top QBs are top players because they're elite passers and Allen has miles to go in that department. 

 

 

 

This is easier said then done with a QB that has the arm strength and medium/long pass accuracy that Allen has.  Sure, teams can adjust to stop the planned QB runs but that will open up other opportunities downfield.  

 

Serious question for folks, if you put Allen on KC right now do you think he would be throwing fro 300 yards?  I do. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They are definitely not entirely different teams. They are comprised of pretty much the exact same players on defense. The big difference is they lost two starting receivers and Bortles somehow is playing even worse than last year. But that has nothing to do with Allen's performance against a defense that has been top 5 this year, in his first game back from injury, with a bunch of no-name receivers and a poor offensive line. It was impressive any way you slice it. Elite, no, but he showed signs that he could be a great QB in the future.

 

Good post.  You're missing the rush game and OL difference for the Jags.  Last year they had Fournette for 13 games and their star rookie LT for 15 games.

This year they lost their starting LT to ACL and last year's starting LG to FA, plus Fournette has been out. 

 

Losing Fournette and downgrade on OL have made both Bortles and the run game less effective.

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

This is easier said then done with a QB that has the arm strength and medium/long pass accuracy that Allen has.  Sure, teams can adjust to stop the planned QB runs but that will open up other opportunities downfield.  

 

Serious question for folks, if you put Allen on KC right now do you think he would be throwing fro 300 yards?  I do. 

 

I don't.  But I do believe he'd be doing better as a passer than he is with us, due to a better coach, better OL, and better WR/TE

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

he made plays both with his feet and arm. of course most of the plays he made with his arm were either dropped or the play was called back by a penalty.

 

no, I see no comparison to jackson, at all.

Allen definitely has the stronger arm but I think the comparison is a lot closer than you think.  In fact, Jackson actually has better passing numbers across the board than Allen.  

 

I basically had Jackson and Allen equal at draft time.  They are both really raw and capable of great plays.  The key with both is consistency.  

[HappyDays]

18 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Isn’t Josh Allen essentially Lamar Jackson?

 

This is honestly lazy thinking. Not all mobile QBs are the same. Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson are all mobile QBs, but they are very different passers. Allen can do things as a passer that Lamar can't, and vice versa for Lamar's running.

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

This is easier said then done with a QB that has the arm strength and medium/long pass accuracy that Allen has.  Sure, teams can adjust to stop the planned QB runs but that will open up other opportunities downfield.  

 

Serious question for folks, if you put Allen on KC right now do you think he would be throwing fro 300 yards?  I do. 

I don’t and think you are too easily dismiss how good Mahomes is.  Allen would definitely hit some bombs but because of his mechanics, he can’t make those passes consistently.  That’s why I wanted him to sit like Mahomes and not be forced in too early to work on those mechanics.  Mahomes was a 64% passer in college and is 67% in the pros.  Allen has never been higher than 56% on any level.

 

i know there are a million excuses and it’s great to see him make plays without being a consistent passer.  But for him to be the guy we need, he needs to win with his arm first then his legs.

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is honestly lazy thinking. Not all mobile QBs are the same. Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson are all mobile QBs, but they are very different passers. Allen can do things as a passer that Lamar can't, and vice versa for Lamar's running.

Why?  First of all, Cam and Wilson were much superior passers than Allen/ Jackson right away.  Allen and Jackson are winning games with huge running plays and a few big passing plays.  But they are both below average nfl passers at this point. I really don’t see how this can be disputed.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

I saw it as JA taking what the defense was giving him with the reads he had, and also making something out of nothing if the Oline wasn't giving him enough time to throw--that said, I do think that with more game reps and the game overall slowing down for him, we will see higher yds/game through the air and less on the ground for him. But heck, yesterday his runs were game-changers and helped us win, so I'm not complaining. It was shades of Steve Young out there at times! Also, as others here have already pointed out, this was TT in year 6-7, JA is just starting out, has a better arm and willingness to look at the middle of the field, and will even out IMHO.  

[dakrider]

17 hours ago, jr1 said:

he had 1812 passing yards in his final season at Wyoming. He's not going to ever be Brees

 

Yes, but Allen also had 3200 passing yards and 500 rushing yards his Soph. season.  But no, he's not likely to be the next Brees.  

Edited November 26, 2018 by dakrider

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Two really nice third down completions were negated by penalties.

 

Saw a few not so good passes too.  

 

Did he make progressions in his reads is hard to tell as the pocket broke down on a # of his runs.

 

Need to still pass more on first down and positive yards, as many 3rd & longs still...

 

Playcalling still an issue.

He also made throws yesterday that literally no other QB in the NFL can make. His arm is staggeringly impressive. 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the throws Allen makes are different throws than Taylor would make.  I didn't see Taylor making some of the anticipation throws and throws into tight coverage that Allen will make.

 

The thing is, Taylor had 3 full years as a starter and the support of a fantastic run game.  What you saw is what you were gonna get. 

Allen is a rookie.

 

You are correct that Allen needs to become more accurate on the short throws, and will live or die as an NFL QB based on whether he develops that skill.

 

I do think if Allen had better WR he'd have better completion percentage.

 

 

 

 

The results are similar to Taylor's.

 

Again, pointing out a flaw or something that is not a super positive kool aid bomb does not mean I am saying I think Allen sucks and will never make it.  It is a work in progress I think we all get that but that also does not mean we have to ignore everything does it?   I think we also agree that the WR's need upgrading but I wont use that as an excuse because what I see is Allen is not throwing  in rhythm and puts the receivers in tough positions sometimes, a little more often than  you would want.  I don't see throws with anticipation I see a guy who looks like a "see it throw it" type.  Time will tell, the receivers will get addressed this offseason.

 

[dave mcbride]

15 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 Allen and Jackson are winning games with huge running plays and a few big passing plays.  But they are both below average nfl passers at this point. I really don’t see how this can be disputed.

Allen is hardly a finished product, and yesterday was only one game. But he should have had more completions on deeper throws than he did; drops affected his numbers. His deep accuracy yesterday was remarkably good, and his arm strength is something every team will have to game plan against. He has the strongest arm I have ever seen, and it's not even really a close call. He was throwing 50-yards-in-the-air throws on a freaking rope.