Nice game but Allen needs to pass

[NickelCity]

3 minutes ago, mattynh said:

8 for 19 passing with 13 runs.  You are happy with that?  I mean they won the game so I get "who cares about stats when you win".   But for me, I just dont see that as something that will be successful in the long term if it continues.

 

The box score from this game in particular really hid how well Josh did. Those back to back 3rd down completions, toss in the hail mary attempt and drop(s)...

[PittsforDave]

1 minute ago, sleeby said:

He dove head first today? Are you certain about that? 

Twice in the 1st half. 

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, NickelCity said:

 

The box score from this game in particular really hid how well Josh did. Those back to back 3rd down completions, toss in the hail mary attempt and drop(s)...

 

I think he did very well if you consider it all about progression. Objectively, I don't think it was a great day, but a solid one that looked better than the box score.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 minute ago, Mat68 said:

Never said HOF or any level of accolades for that matter.  I just do not understand why more people are not impressed by Allen out athleting Jacksonvilles defense.  He doesn't have a go to guy on 3rd down.  He doesnt have a running game to fall back on.  If this was a terrible defense than I understand.  I do not recall an easy matchup yet for Allen. 

The Jags have lost 7 games in a row.  The Packers defense is not that good.   He is struggling to throw for any volume.  If he got sacked on the pass to Foster which he almost did he would have been under 100 yards again.  His athleticism shows no doubt.

[longtimebillsfan]

9 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Oh I got your point.  I just found it funny that you demonstrated it by bringing up a guy whose career is over because he didn't throw for enough yards.

You got me.  Take care. 

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, NickelCity said:

 

The box score from this game in particular really hid how well Josh did. Those back to back 3rd down completions, toss in the hail mary attempt and drop(s)...

He hangs guys out to dry then when they get smashed and dont catch we call it a drop, ball placement is a thing, an important thing

[Mango]

It’s weird that we didn’t talk about how bad the running game or Zay Jones was with Barkley.

 

Just something to think about . 

[GoBills!]

Matt Ryan is averaging over 300 a game how is that working out for the falcons with receivers?

[26CornerBlitz]

4 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Look beyond the stats. Allen had a very good game. 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

He did.

 

Thompson and Croom need to catch and our OL needs to learn how to stop getting so many damn holding penalties that negate nice passes by Allen.

[QCity]

8 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

Great team win and Allen made some huge throws and ran for over 100yards,  end of the day i do not want my franchise QB focused on running the football.  For Allen to become a great franchise QB he needs to throw the ball and more plays to need to be called to throw the ball and not run.  This is a passing league, and ground and pound is for losers  the great teams pass for 300yards on weekly basis and we struggle to make it to 200 yards. Yes the receivers suck but we need to stay committed to becoming a pass first team.  Even finishing this season focused on passing the ball and establishing ourselves as a pass first team will help signing potential free agent WR'S.

 

 

 

You're going to trigger a lot of people with this post, but you do have a point. He won't make it through the rest of the year with that style of play. He needs to learn to slide or he's going to wind up on IR.

[ganesh]

13 hours ago, Agent 91 said:

Im ok with the no 300 yd thing. But I also don't want to see him talking the hits 

 

I find it funny that Allen comes back and Zay disappears again. I need to understand the gameplan. 

 

McKenzie looks intriguing I will admit

The Jags Defense is not the same as the Jets...The Jags front 7 is a blue-chip group. Our OL had no chance against them.  Allen had very little time to make those throws...and Daboll did not really help.  He left his rookie QB exposed to all those hits. 

[CommonCents]

The same few posters who ride Allen anytime he plays bad with their “bust” predictions have once again been given a Monday off. See you guys midweek.?

[Victory Formation]

So long as Allen does not take big hits, run as much as you like. When he makes big runs the confidence carries over into the passing game. Allen seems to settle down after he takes a hit, he seems to embellish it and talk ***** to defenders after the fact. I say let him do it. I expect him to be more of a passer next year but as a rookie QB, I'm fine with it and feel it should be a big part of our game plan. If Allen repeats this production going forward we finish between 8-8 and 9-7. Possibly a wildcard birth.

[HOUSE]

Running that much with the franchise QB is just plain dumb. McD should know better. Absolutely crazy.

 

Nice thread

[BillsMafia13]

13 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

No hater,  i just want him to pass more

Idk why people are nitpicking here.  Every time he took off I got nervous and I dont think he slid once.  Everyone saying, yeah but hes good and needed to, he almost blew his back out on a scramble from the 3 while we were winning.  Im glad he can but gd stop taking so many hits so often.

[Teddy KGB]

18 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

The same few posters who ride Allen anytime he plays bad with their “bust” predictions have once again been given a Monday off. See you guys midweek.?

 

Its crazy.   Haven’t heard a peep from rober or fadingpain after they hot taked us for two months on Allen’s suckitude.  

3 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Running that much with the franchise QB is just plain dumb. McD should know better. Absolutely crazy.

 

Nice thread

 

Coming from the Allen is a bust guy.      Stick to the script.    

 

Lets forget all about Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, Aaron Rodgers, and all the other qb’s that run when it’s called for ?

 

I forgot Trubisky, Watson, Prescott, and Mariota.  

 

They should all quit the league too 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Teddy KGB

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, HOUSE said:

Running that much with the franchise QB is just plain dumb. McD should know better. Absolutely crazy.

 

Nice thread

It feels like Allen is a foot taller than everyone who tries to tackle him. Allen seems to be extremely durable.

[vanhalen26]

Less running.  One play his head took a nice bounce of the turf when he went down, another his throwing arm that was injured took a big hit.  It was the head bounce that concerned me. He’s gotta stay healthy and learn to thrown.

[Juice_32]

13 hours ago, mattynh said:

I had the same thought.    The first 3rd down they had where he ran for the first down, he had a guy right after the snap to the right that would have been an easy conversion but he was not looking there.   Bottom line is right now he is a one read guy, that has to change for him to make it.   It's great that he is using his legs though which can give him some confidence and keep the offense moving at times.   In the long run though your franchise QB has to be able to throw it more consistently that he does right now.  So many bootlegs that generate a lot of time to pass and he often just hoofs it for 3-4 yards.

 

Go back and watch it. He did look before he took off and he picked up more yards than the receiver would have. 

 

The TD to Foster was his second read on the play. 

 

 

[PolishDave]

10 minutes ago, vanhalen26 said:

Less running.  One play his head took a nice bounce of the turf when he went down, another his throwing arm that was injured took a big hit.  It was the head bounce that concerned me. He’s gotta stay healthy and learn to thrown.

 

Allen is the Atomic Punk.   It looks like he is Runnin With The Devil every time he decides to Jump a would-be tackler.  Those defenders look like they’ve got Drop Dead Legs.    Someday Allen will probably end up saying “You Really Got Me – now Somebody Get Me A Doctor”; but for now I really like how this coaching staff has him Unchained.

[Teddy KGB]

8 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

Allen is the Atomic Punk.   It looks like he is Runnin With The Devil every time he decides to Jump a would-be tackler.  Those defenders look like they’ve got Drop Dead Legs.    Someday Allen will probably end up saying “You Really Got Me – now Somebody Get Me A Doctor”; but for now I really like how this coaching staff has him Unchained.

 

When Anthony Barr’s headed your way you MIGHT AS WELL JUMP ! 

[Matt_In_NH]

8 minutes ago, Juice_32 said:

 

Go back and watch it. He did look before he took off and he picked up more yards than the receiver would have. 

 

The TD to Foster was his second read on the play. 

 

 

 

When I say he is a basically a one read QB does not mean he never ever gets to a second read.   The play to Foster is an example of what he can do in terms of standing in there and throwing a dart way down the field on a quick release.  I though he was getting sacked on that play.   Generally his progression is very slow and he ends up late on passes or completely missing windows of opportunity.

 

There is no way he could have known he can run for a couple more yards than throwing it and even if he could, its not worth the risk, yards are easy in the NFL these days.  He looked way too late to see it, on a play like that the QB has to kind of "see" multiple things right off the snap using peripheral vision and cues from presnap reads. 

[Pbomb]

13 hours ago, mattynh said:

The Jags have lost 7 games in a row.  The Packers defense is not that good.   He is struggling to throw for any volume.  If he got sacked on the pass to Foster which he almost did he would have been under 100 yards again.  His athleticism shows no doubt.

“If”, but he didn’t . He threw the ball and made a great play. There are a lot of “ifs” you can use the other way for him too. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Just now, Pbomb said:

“If”, but he didn’t . He threw the ball and made a great play. There are a lot of “ifs” you can use the other way for him too. 

Since it really happened lets look at the numbers, 8-19 for 160 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's.  That is statistically bad in the NFL, would you agree?  That won't be nearly good enough to win divisions and playoff games.  On the flip side, he did not turn the ball over and did not take 1 sack which is fantastic.   But there were roughly 30 passing plays called, that resulted in 8 completions and he scrambled 11 times with one or two designed runs.  The guy does not slide, he runs like a running back which means he is an injury waiting to happen.  He is doing that because he has to and in the long run that needs to become less of his game.

 

 You are right and I read about those "if's" all the time here.  What if the penalites were not called what if the player caught the ball (which isn't always as realistic as people assume), what if the bills had Tyreek Hill and Kareen Hunt.

[Juice_32]

18 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

When I say he is a basically a one read QB does not mean he never ever gets to a second read.   The play to Foster is an example of what he can do in terms of standing in there and throwing a dart way down the field on a quick release.  I though he was getting sacked on that play.   Generally his progression is very slow and he ends up late on passes or completely missing windows of opportunity.

 

There is no way he could have known he can run for a couple more yards than throwing it and even if he could, its not worth the risk, yards are easy in the NFL these days.  He looked way too late to see it, on a play like that the QB has to kind of "see" multiple things right off the snap using peripheral vision and cues from presnap reads. 

 

This is simply false. Second quarter, 5:23. Allen looks right at McKenzie in the flat and processes that he has a defender right in front of him. Allen picks up 9. To your point, 10 years from now I'd rather have him dump that off and he likely will. 

 

Watch the all 22 if you can. Allen actually processes pretty well for a rookie. I would not call him a 1 read QB, especially not in the Jags or Houston game.

[Matt_In_NH]

Just now, Juice_32 said:

 

This is simply false. Second quarter, 5:23. Allen looks right at McKenzie in the flat and processes that he has a defender right in front of him. Allen picks up 9. To your point, 10 years from now I'd rather have him dump that off and he likely will. 

 

Watch the all 22 if you can. Allen actually processes pretty well for a rookie. I would not call him a 1 read QB, especially not in the Jags or Houston game.

I was talking about the first 3rd down of the game, it was 3rd and 3.

Just now, Juice_32 said:

 

This is simply false. Second quarter, 5:23. Allen looks right at McKenzie in the flat and processes that he has a defender right in front of him. Allen picks up 9. To your point, 10 years from now I'd rather have him dump that off and he likely will. 

 

Watch the all 22 if you can. Allen actually processes pretty well for a rookie. I would not call him a 1 read QB, especially not in the Jags or Houston game.

 

His stats look a lot like the guy we traded in the offseason to me.  Minus the completion percentage.  If he processes well why is he completing 52% of his passes?   Many passes are easy completions if you process well.  I guess some of it is his poor ability to throw shorter passes, that needs to get addressed.

[Juice_32]

5 minutes ago, mattynh said:

I was talking about the first 3rd down of the game, it was 3rd and 3.

 

His stats look a lot like the guy we traded in the offseason to me.  Minus the completion percentage.  If he processes well why is he completing 52% of his passes?   Many passes are easy completions if you process well.  I guess some of it is his poor ability to throw shorter passes, that needs to get addressed.

 

Except one is an 8 year vet and one is a rookie. I agree he is still raw in many aspects but give me a lump of clay with heart any day. Which QB did you want this past draft?

[billsfan1959]

19 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Since it really happened lets look at the numbers, 8-19 for 160 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's.  That is statistically bad in the NFL, would you agree?  That won't be nearly good enough to win divisions and playoff games.  On the flip side, he did not turn the ball over and did not take 1 sack which is fantastic.   But there were roughly 30 passing plays called, that resulted in 8 completions and he scrambled 11 times with one or two designed runs.  The guy does not slide, he runs like a running back which means he is an injury waiting to happen.  He is doing that because he has to and in the long run that needs to become less of his game.

 

 You are right and I read about those "if's" all the time here.  What if the penalites were not called what if the player caught the ball (which isn't always as realistic as people assume), what if the bills had Tyreek Hill and Kareen Hunt.

Stats do not win games - plays win games. Allen is a rookie who hadn't played in five weeks and with 24 total quarters of NFL football under his belt. The stat line you quote does not accurately reflect his play in this game. We wanted to see improvement in his game and we saw it. He made better decisions, got rid of the ball quicker, moved in the pocket better, was more accurate, led the team on drives of 54, 68, 75, and 86 yards, and made the plays he needed to make against a Jags defense that played 10 times better than the jets defense the Bills faced two weeks ago.

 

He has a long way to go; however, he played very well without a strong running game and under duress on a lot of his drop backs. I saw some of the improvement I wanted to see and I am excited to see what he does the rest of the year.

Edited November 26, 2018 by billsfan1959

[Matt_In_NH]

1 minute ago, Juice_32 said:

 

Except one is an 8 year vet and one is a rookie. I agree he is still raw in many aspects but give me a lump of clay with heart any day. Which QB did you want this past draft?

 

Not sure how that is relevant. I don’t evaluate college qbs much but based on what I read I thought mayfield was the guy to get.  But i would have told you I really had no idea and I would leave it up to the guys who spend all the time doing the evaluations and interviews.  In any event what dies it matter since they did. It have the choice.   I see the rawness and my opinion is he has a lot to work on to become the franchise.  He looks physically skilled, eager, full of desire.   But in terms of the intricacies of playing qb in the nfl there is a lot of runway ahead.   One thing I am certain of is playing qb is as much mental/cerebral as it is physical.   Having the physical without the mental wont get it done.  That is why guys can routinely play into their forties.  

[dave mcbride]

25 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Since it really happened lets look at the numbers, 8-19 for 160 yards 1 TD and 0 INT's.  That is statistically bad in the NFL, would you agree?  That won't be nearly good enough to win divisions and playoff games.  On the flip side, he did not turn the ball over and did not take 1 sack which is fantastic.   But there were roughly 30 passing plays called, that resulted in 8 completions and he scrambled 11 times with one or two designed runs.  The guy does not slide, he runs like a running back which means he is an injury waiting to happen.  He is doing that because he has to and in the long run that needs to become less of his game.

 

 You are right and I read about those "if's" all the time here.  What if the penalites were not called what if the player caught the ball (which isn't always as realistic as people assume), what if the bills had Tyreek Hill and Kareen Hunt.

I'll take 8.4 ypa with no negative sack yardage or turnovers all day every day. Adjusted ypa is the most telling qb stat of all.

[Matt_In_NH]

6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Stats do not win games - plays win games. Allen is a rookie who hadn't played in five weeks and with 24 total quarters of NFL football under his belt. The stat line you quote does not accurately reflect his play in this game. We wanted to see improvement in his game and we saw it. He made better decisions, got rid of the ball quicker, moved in the pocket better, was more accurate, led the team on drives of 54, 68, 75, and 86 yards, and made the plays he needed to make against a Jags defense that played 10 times better than the jets defense the Bills faced two weeks ago.

 

He has a long way to go; however, he played very well without a strong running game and under duress on a lot of his drop backs. I saw some of the improvement I wanted to see and I am excited to see what he does the rest of the year.

Generally speaking the qbs who have the best stats win Super Bowls over the course of time.  

[dave mcbride]

Just now, mattynh said:

Generally speaking the qbs who have the best stats win Super Bowls over the course of time.  

8.4 ypa and an amazing 9.47 adjusted ypa wins you games.

[The Now Moment]

The man is early in his development still, do we have any patience here?

[Pbomb]

3 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Generally speaking the qbs who have the best stats win Super Bowls over the course of time.  

Nah , it depends on what qb plays the best individually and the team as a whole. Your precious stats are overrated. There are plenty of qbs with good stats that don’t win anything 

[Juice_32]

1 minute ago, mattynh said:

 

Not sure how that is relevant. I don’t evaluate college qbs much but based on what I read I thought mayfield was the guy to get.  But i would have told you I really had no idea and I would leave it up to the guys who spend all the time doing the evaluations and interviews.  In any event what dies it matter since they did. It have the choice.   I see the rawness and my opinion is he has a lot to work on to become the franchise.  He looks physically skilled, eager, full of desire.   But in terms of the intricacies of playing qb in the nfl there is a lot of runway ahead.   One thing I am certain of is playing qb is as much mental/cerebral as it is physical.   Having the physical without the mental wont get it done.  That is why guys can routinely play into their forties.  

 

And my point is that no matter who you wanted, they'd still have been a rookie. It's weird how many on here expected a finished product. I wanted Rosen and I'm glad I wasn't in charge. Of course the position is mental, it is probably the most mentally demanding position in all of sports. And of course he has a long way to go in that and many other aspects of learning the position, but he is not a one read QB like you claimed. I have actually been impressed with his improvement mentally and from the pocket. He has a long way to go yes, but the fact that he is improving (and doing so against damn good defenses) is encouraging to me.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, mattynh said:

Generally speaking the qbs who have the best stats win Super Bowls over the course of time.  

If you are hung up on the stat line for this game as an indication of bad play or his potential in the future, then you clearly see only what you want to see. 

12 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

Not sure how that is relevant. I don’t evaluate college qbs much but based on what I read I thought mayfield was the guy to get.  But i would have told you I really had no idea and I would leave it up to the guys who spend all the time doing the evaluations and interviews.  In any event what dies it matter since they did. It have the choice.   I see the rawness and my opinion is he has a lot to work on to become the franchise.  He looks physically skilled, eager, full of desire.   But in terms of the intricacies of playing qb in the nfl there is a lot of runway ahead.   One thing I am certain of is playing qb is as much mental/cerebral as it is physical.   Having the physical without the mental wont get it done.  That is why guys can routinely play into their forties.  

There was absolutely nothing in the game yesterday that indicates Allen doesn't have the mental/cerebral abilities to be a good QB in the NFL. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

57 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

When I say he is a basically a one read QB does not mean he never ever gets to a second read.   The play to Foster is an example of what he can do in terms of standing in there and throwing a dart way down the field on a quick release.  I though he was getting sacked on that play.   Generally his progression is very slow and he ends up late on passes or completely missing windows of opportunity.

 

There is no way he could have known he can run for a couple more yards than throwing it and even if he could, its not worth the risk, yards are easy in the NFL these days.  He looked way too late to see it, on a play like that the QB has to kind of "see" multiple things right off the snap using peripheral vision and cues from presnap reads. 

 

This is pretty much how I feel about Allen.  Its fun when he does what he did yesterday, but Tyrod could do that.  

 

That being said, most rookies can barely get past their first read.  Even when they did it in college, the game is so much faster at the NFL level they barely get to the second read.  So I'm not really concerned he can't do it now.  What really makes the difference is the ability to learn how to do it after a year or two.  It is yet to be seen if Allen can learn how to do it.  

[Matt_In_NH]

9 minutes ago, Juice_32 said:

 

And my point is that no matter who you wanted, they'd still have been a rookie. It's weird how many on here expected a finished product. I wanted Rosen and I'm glad I wasn't in charge. Of course the position is mental, it is probably the most mentally demanding position in all of sports. And of course he has a long way to go in that and many other aspects of learning the position, but he is not a one read QB like you claimed. I have actually been impressed with his improvement mentally and from the pocket. He has a long way to go yes, but the fact that he is improving (and doing so against damn good defenses) is encouraging to me.

 

I did not expect a finished product.  Just because I comment on what he did not do well does not mean I expected a finished product.    But I do think it is ok to objectively look at what he did do well or did not do well.  It does not mean I think he is a bust or is trash or anything like that.  I am not seeing him process things before and after the snap well but I guess I would agree he impvoed some from the last time we saw him.  He was also playing a talented defense and made zero negative plays.

[Billsfan1972]

Two really nice third down completions were negated by penalties.

 

Saw a few not so good passes too.  

 

Did he make progressions in his reads is hard to tell as the pocket broke down on a # of his runs.

 

Need to still pass more on first down and positive yards, as many 3rd & longs still...

 

Playcalling still an issue.