Woods, Watkins, Hogan and Goodwin

[oldmanfan]

More revisionist history around here.  People now are pining away for Goodwin?  When he was here he couldn't stay on the field and no one wanted to keep him.  Woods was an FA; we did not purposefully get rid of him.  I have said numerous times I would have liked to have kept Sammy and Hogan.

[SoTier]

8 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

 

So you both would have been fine with the Bills giving him the type of contract the Rams gave him?

 

Absolutely.  Woods is not only talented, he's a gamer.

 

8 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Then you are the first person on this board that I know of to be in favor of it.

 

When Woods walked everyone said the Rams gave him too much.

 

Who, exactly, did you consult to determine "everyone said the Rams gave him too much"?  The Pegulas?  Russ Brandon? Jim Overdorf?  Doug Whaley?  Sean McDermott?  

 

More importantly, why do you care so much about saving the Pegulas a few millions by replacing quality players with trash players just to save some $?  It's not like the Bills are giving fans a  break on tickets because they put a crappy product on the field.

 

6 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

Best part about it is, when McD gets fired and we hire a new HC, he's going to come in and cut the players McD drafted on defense. The cycle never ends, we will always be a farm team for the NFL.

 

I am so damn sick of seeing players whom the Bills (and their loyal cheerleaders) didn't think were "worth the money" going to other teams and flourishing.  This isn't something that just started with McDermott and Beane, but has been going on for decades, especially under Russ Brandon's rule.  That's the foundation of the real "Bills culture":  money over talent.   That's why McDermott is the Bills HC with control over personnel except where various Bills FO bean-counters have a say and Beane is subservient to McDermott. 

 

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

From the guy who comes to the Bills boards and says nothing positive about them ever, I consider that you think that to be proof of high quality.

 

And you're the one who's deflecting. Pretend that the receivers are the only reason for the problem if you must, but you're wrong, as usual.

 

What's there to be positive about with the Bills in 2018?  The offense is even more offensively bad than usual even when Allen was healthy.  The vaunted defense may be great statistically but it's just as unable to come up with big stops/turnovers late in games when needed to secure wins as the crappy Ds that Rex Ryan fielded.  For all the hype about emphasizing ST skills that McDermott spews, the Bills ST are more liabilities than assets.  How the hell is any of this all that different than the previous 2 decades of Bills ineptitude?   Boring, unwatchable, ineffective offense.  Unclutch defense.  Crappy ST.   Same old Bills.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by SoTier

[Rebel101]

10 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

I just posted something along these lines a few days ago 

[Big Turk]

8 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

 

So you both would have been fine with the Bills giving him the type of contract the Rams gave him?

 

Nope. Not for the way they used him. Wasnt worth it to us.

[ProcessTruster]

9 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Goodwin has also put up a massive 54 yards in 3 games.

 

Hogan has Brady and he can make any receiver inflate their numbers.

 

I'll give Woods the benefit here but we weren't going to be able to resign him IMO so you can't fault the FO for not retaining him.

yep.  hogan played hiding a busted hand , couldn't catch anything and was let go;  Watkins was never on the field and wanted #1 $$, so no good there either;  Goodwin was just screwing around with football and was let go;  Woods agent never even talked to the Bills, so that one was baked as well.  I put no faith in the Whaley/Rex era, they were the hot garbage...

[T master]

11 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

 

After hereing some of the game last night i was thinking of writing a post with the same premiss I wonder what our offense would be like with these guys back on the team ? 

 

The only one that i could see not being here because he could have been bad in the locker room was Sammy due to some of his comments before he was let go but Woods, Goodwin & Hogan would have been monsters as they have shown for their respective teams as part of one unit here .

 

But apparently while they were here the powers that be as we know because they are no longer here couldn't see what the other coaches saw in them so the new coaches decided to let them walk which i hope isn't something we should have to wonder about when looking at this regimes decisions down the road .

 

Could ah , should ah  , would ah ! 

 

GO BILLS !! 

Edited October 16, 2018 by T master

[ricojes]

11 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

Woods wasn't staying and Goodwin couldn't stay healthy.  But we easily could still have Hogan and Watkins, I would be very happy with that.

[nedboy7]

8 hours ago, brianthomas said:

hindsight is 20/20. At the time they probably felt his potential didn't add up to $6 or $7mil per season. And i bet if we wouldve offered him that at the time, many around here would've felt we were overpaying. The job of a GM is a tough one. Most the time it doesnt end well. Not everyone can be a Robert Kraft, bcuz not every team can have a Tom Brady. You just hope you get more hits than misses.

With our situation its hard to evaluate much of anything, given the mess this team was in & how we've purged our dead cap for this year. But starting from 2019, with the players we bring in we'll be able to more accurately see how our GM performs & what type of QB Josh Allen is. Until then we'll be debating this stuff & picking out this & that while this season goes pretty much like we thought it would.

 

Yeah!  We gonna draft us some pro bowl WR and linemen!!  It’s so easy! 

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

Nope. Not for the way they used him. Wasnt worth it to us.

 

Enjoy the team then!  

[Matt_In_NH]

8 hours ago, SJDK said:

I was happy with them as a group but knew our quarterbacks couldn’t use them. Most everyone thought they were a joke. Run blocker comment was spot on

 

That is my point, wr's dont matter until you have a QB.  

 

QB's can make WR's

WR's cannot make a QB.

Get a QB first.  Even wiht bad WR's you should see signs

9 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Actually I think Robert Woods was great, Watkins was trash (and an injury faker) and Goodwin was potentially a good player if he concentrated on football.  Check previous posts.

 

And I though Hogan was very underrated by board.

 

Back on BBMB I saw a lot of this:

 

Woods is just a blocker

Goodwin is a glass doll who plays track

Hogan is a lacrosse player who would not make other teams rosters

Watkins is always injured and has no qb to throw him the ball.

 

I know not everyone thought those things there was a narrative that WR was the problem.  WR was not the problem then.  Woods could put up great numbers with the right QB, he was not respected well by a lot of fans.  While today's WR's dont measure up to those guys, I will still argue WR is not the problem.  It starts with a quarterback who can give guys a chance.  We dont have that right now.

 

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

Please don't make me cry again. Every snap is like a tiny tear floating down a sea of 40 year Bills misery.  This is how Lake Erie was made. 

[MAJBobby]

12 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

 

And the sad thing is at least two of them could still be here. 

 

Watkins on a 5th year option 

 

and Woods or Goodwin for the amount they have paid to the other scrubs chose to replace them 

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

And the sad thing is at least two of them could still be here. 

 

Watkins on a 5th year option 

 

and Woods or Goodwin for the amount they have paid to the other scrubs chose to replace them 

There wasn't a fan on this or any other site who shed a tear when Goodwin left.  This kind of hyprocritical  revisionism is ridiculous.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

There wasn't a fan on this or any other site who shed a tear when Goodwin left.  This kind of hyprocritical  revisionism is ridiculous.

 

Talking Woods or Hogan or Goodwin (mainly Woods here)

 

and Yes Sammy should still be here on his 5th year option but had too strong of personality for the Fickle McD

[blacklabel]

12 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

 

Woods - rookie deal was up, he was a 2nd round pick so there's no 5th year option. They offered him a deal but he wanted to test free agency and who could blame him? He spent most of his first four seasons playing on run-first teams. He had a chance to go back home and play for a team that throws the ball all the time.

 

Goodwin - also was offered a deal to stay in Buffalo but wanted to try free agency. Missed 25 games during his four years in Buffalo.

 

Hogan - they signed him to an offer sheet, New England offered a bit more, business is business. Hogan's been the same receiver in NE he was here, averaging about 35 catches for 475 yards a season. It's not like he left Buffalo and instantly went and had 118 catches for 1200 yards and 14 TDs.

 

Watkins - Missed 13 games during his time in Buffalo. His best season was 2015, with the Bills. Wasn't featured in the Rams offense last year and isn't heavily featured in KC's offense right now, he has 22 catches for 272 yards and 1 TD. He was going to walk after his 4th season here once they declined to give him the 5th year option so instead of letting him head out the door for nothing, they traded him and got something in return. "They let him walk for nothin'!" is a common Bills fan trope... once a regime does the opposite and gets something in return for a player who was leaving anyway, some of y'all still whine. Plus, Watkins admitted to being more concerned with his personal stats than wins while he was here. 

 

The current offensive lineup isn't ideal but do your homework and realize why these guys aren't here anymore. It's not as if they were just kicked off the team. All except Watkins were offered to stay here but wanted to test free agency, that's just how this business works.

[nedboy7]

12 hours ago, mattynh said:

Other than Watkins who was injured people thought that group was trash. 

 

Then this season happened! 

[BringBackOrton]

12 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Weird that the best offenses and coaches seem to want Sammy.

 

and I love the point that if you don’t win a championship, every player is worthless.

Yeah, I mean what have we won with Allen anyway? Cut his ass and send a message.

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

 

Woods - rookie deal was up, he was a 2nd round pick so there's no 5th year option. They offered him a deal but he wanted to test free agency and who could blame him? He spent most of his first four seasons playing on run-first teams. He had a chance to go back home and play for a team that throws the ball all the time.

 

Goodwin - also was offered a deal to stay in Buffalo but wanted to try free agency. Missed 25 games during his four years in Buffalo.

 

Hogan - they signed him to an offer sheet, New England offered a bit more, business is business. Hogan's been the same receiver in NE he was here, averaging about 35 catches for 475 yards a season. It's not like he left Buffalo and instantly went and had 118 catches for 1200 yards and 14 TDs.

 

Watkins - Missed 13 games during his time in Buffalo. His best season was 2015, with the Bills. Wasn't featured in the Rams offense last year and isn't heavily featured in KC's offense right now, he has 22 catches for 272 yards and 1 TD. He was going to walk after his 4th season here once they declined to give him the 5th year option so instead of letting him head out the door for nothing, they traded him and got something in return. "They let him walk for nothin'!" is a common Bills fan trope... once a regime does the opposite and gets something in return for a player who was leaving anyway, some of y'all still whine. Plus, Watkins admitted to being more concerned with his personal stats than wins while he was here. 

 

The current offensive lineup isn't ideal but do your homework and realize why these guys aren't here anymore. It's not as if they were just kicked off the team. All except Watkins were offered to stay here but wanted to test free agency, that's just how this business works.

 

And Whos choice was it to decline the 5th year option. Yep good ole McD. 

 

But hey he traded for a lesser, bigger, lazier and worse Attitude Kelvin Benjamin. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by MAJBobby

[CookieG]

12 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

 

So you both would have been fine with the Bills giving him the type of contract the Rams gave him?

And yet, here we are paying KB 8.6 million.  Not to mention the 3.2 million cap hit for Coleman.

 

 

2 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

That is my point, wr's dont matter until you have a QB.  

 

QB's can make WR's

WR's cannot make a QB.

Get a QB first.  Even wiht bad WR's you should see signs

 

Back on BBMB I saw a lot of this:

 

Woods is just a blocker

Goodwin is a glass doll who plays track

Hogan is a lacrosse player who would not make other teams rosters

Watkins is always injured and has no qb to throw him the ball.

 

I know not everyone thought those things there was a narrative that WR was the problem.  WR was not the problem then.  Woods could put up great numbers with the right QB, he was not respected well by a lot of fans.  While today's WR's dont measure up to those guys, I will still argue WR is not the problem.  It starts with a quarterback who can give guys a chance.  We dont have that right now.

 

And yet...there he was, waiting for us at 10.

 

Pat Mah...

 

eh...never mind.

 

 

 

 

[Mark Vader]

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Absolutely.  Woods is not only talented, he's a gamer.

 

 

Who, exactly, did you consult to determine "everyone said the Rams gave him too much"?  The Pegulas?  Russ Brandon? Jim Overdorf?  Doug Whaley?  Sean McDermott?  

 

More importantly, why do you care so much about saving the Pegulas a few millions by replacing quality players with trash players just to save some $?  It's not like the Bills are giving fans a  break on tickets because they put a crappy product on the field.

By "everyone" I am talking about people on this board. Okay, it may not have been a unanimous 100% of the people on this board saying that, but it was clear that the majority of fans weren't exactly clamoring for the Bills to keep Robert Woods at all costs.

 

There were many people here saying how Woods was nothing special, or that he was a great run blocker.

 

Now all of a sudden fans are saying that we should have kept Woods no matter what. Where was all of this demanding from the fans when he was a free agent? I sure didn't see it.

[Matt_In_NH]

43 minutes ago, CookieG said:

And yet, here we are paying KB 8.6 million.  Not to mention the 3.2 million cap hit for Coleman.

 

 

And yet...there he was, waiting for us at 10.

 

Pat Mah...

 

eh...never mind.

 

 

 

 

 

The Coleman money is awful, the Bills got a 3.2 million dollar cap it and lost a draft pick for......nothing!  The signs were there, the way that guy handled himself.....talent with no work ethic is useless.

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said:

People still said that WR group was trash. Let's not act like we were happy with WR then. Fans don't know what they are looking at. They believe what they want to believe. Happens all the time, blame everything but the QB.

 

I was happy.

 

I thought we had finally figured put you need really good WRs to win.  it almost worked. We were top 10 in scoring.  Would have if Rex could coach D. Now we are back to Coach Gailey era WRs and even worse scoring.

 

Bills will never be good or have a good QB until they wake the F up and get some quality studs at WR.

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

There wasn't a fan on this or any other site who shed a tear when Goodwin left.  This kind of hyprocritical  revisionism is ridiculous.

 

You are senile.  There were posts ridiculed including mine stating Goodwin was just coming into his game NOW in 4th year.

2 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

By "everyone" I am talking about people on this board. Okay, it may not have been a unanimous 100% of the people on this board saying that, but it was clear that the majority of fans weren't exactly clamoring for the Bills to keep Robert Woods at all costs.

 

All costs? No. We got into that trouble with Watkins.  Woods should have got a good, competitive offer however.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

You are senile.  There were posts ridiculed including mine stating Goodwin was just coming into his game NOW in 4th year.

Sure there were. 

[Punching Bag]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Sure there were. 

Vision issues too huh?

[Mark Vader]

5 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

You are senile.  There were posts ridiculed including mine stating Goodwin was just coming into his game NOW in 4th year.

 

All costs? No. We got into that trouble with Watkins.  Woods should have got a good, competitive offer however.

I agree.

 

Although Woods probably wanted to go back to California, so it may not have mattered what the Bills would have offered. Alas, we'll never know.

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

Vision issues too huh?

I do not recall a single post (and back then it was the old BBMB site I was on) that cared about Goodwin leaving because he had lost so much time.  Woods never even negotiated with the Bills, and the Bills knew he wanted to go back to the West coast.  So it's revisionist to say now that we should have kept those guys.  People complained about Hogan and Watkins too.

 

You have the advantage of hindsight.  GMs don't.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

There wasn't a fan on this or any other site who shed a tear when Goodwin left.  This kind of hyprocritical  revisionism is ridiculous.

I was a big Goodwin supporter, but he did get more money than I thought he would. 

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I was happy.

 

I thought we had finally figured put you need really good WRs to win.  it almost worked. We were top 10 in scoring.  Would have if Rex could coach D. Now we are back to Coach Gailey era WRs and even worse scoring.

 

Bills will never be good or have a good QB until they wake the F up and get some quality studs at WR.

Your thinking is flawed. It's the other way around. QB makes the WR in most cases. 

 

But yes we need something at WR that backs off a defense. Goodwin and Watkins did that. 

[reddogblitz]

1 minute ago, TheTruthHurts said:

I was a big Goodwin supporter, but he did get more money than I thought he would. 

Your thinking is flawed. It's the other way around. QB makes the WR in most cases. 

 

But yes we need something at WR that backs off a defense. Goodwin and Watkins did that. 

 

I disagree. Obviously you need both.  If you don't have stud WRs your team will never be good and your QB will never be good.  that's my story and I'm sticking with it even it my "thinking is flawed" (it's not).

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I disagree. Obviously you need both.  If you don't have stud WRs your team will never be good and your QB will never be good.  that's my story and I'm sticking with it even it my "thinking is flawed" (it's not).

What do you mean by stud WR's? You need talent yes, but saying a QB will never be good is about as easy an excuse you could make for QB. 

 

WR is the most QB dependent position there is. 

[reddogblitz]

12 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

What do you mean by stud WR's? You need talent yes, but saying a QB will never be good is about as easy an excuse you could make for QB. 

 

WR is the most QB dependent position there is. 

 

QB is the most WR dependent position there is. 

 

By stud WRs I mean 2 or 3 really good guys.  Like what Atlanta, NO, Rams, Bungles, Ravens, KC, and Cardinals have for example.  Rams have Woods/Cupp (who we could have drafted)/Cooks.  Atlanta has Julio Jones and Muhammad Sanu and then traded up into the first for Ridley.  They also traded up to the first to get Jones.  AND they have Matt Ryan.

 

And the team with allegedly the best QB last year traded a first round pick for a WR.

 

sorry, we're going to have similar results until our "brain trust" figures this out.

 

If you wanna compete with the big boys, you gotta have the WRs (and of course QB).

Edited October 16, 2018 by reddogblitz

[BillsInWilmingtonNC]

Out of this group, I would rank them in the following: 1 - Woods (By a long shot), 2 - Goodwin, 3 - Watkins, 4 - Hogan

 

Woods - I said many times to pay the man what he wants, he was a tough, team-first player...  always on the field doing what was asked of him.  Rarely was hurt, solid route runner, excellent hands, good speed.

Hogan - He is a solid player, nothing special but a solid player that will do his job and you won't have to worry about him missing an assignment or getting in trouble.  I certainly wanted to keep him, but New England did offer him a decent size contract.

Goodwin - It was painful having him here but the one fear that I had about letting him go has seemed to come true....  He has gotten rid of the injury bug, and is showing off his ridiculous speed forcing defenses to account for him.

Watkins - He has been overrated since the day we drafted him.  He was never worth the ransom we paid, but was worth more than the trade compensation we got in return for trading him.  All in all, he is a solid #2 WR in my eyes, and a player I wish we still had on our team but not for the $$$ he wanted/got.

[LABILLBACKER]

19 hours ago, mattynh said:

Other than Watkins who was injured people thought that group was trash. 

....miss Bob, we sure could use him now....

[Solomon Grundy]

21 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

Fire Whaley!!

[SoTier]

21 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

By "everyone" I am talking about people on this board. Okay, it may not have been a unanimous 100% of the people on this board saying that, but it was clear that the majority of fans weren't exactly clamoring for the Bills to keep Robert Woods at all costs.

 

There were many people here saying how Woods was nothing special, or that he was a great run blocker.

 

Now all of a sudden fans are saying that we should have kept Woods no matter what. Where was all of this demanding from the fans when he was a free agent? I sure didn't see it.

 

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree with you about many fans changing their tunes after the fact.    However, my point is that the people who make personnel decisions do so without regard to fans' opinions -- or should make them without to regard to fans' opinions.  With the Bills, I'm not sure that's true.  Since Russ Brandon was handed control of the team in 2006, the Bills have frequently made personnel decisions based on how those moves would impact ticket sales.  I think the signing of Mario Williams and drafting EJ Manuel (from a simply terrible QB draft class from top to bottom) were both examples of that.   I think that Brandon's sticky fingerprints remain all over the current Bills team even after he was fired.  Neither McDermott nor Beane would have even been considered without having Brandon's prior approval.

[Pirate Angel]

It's funny that we weren't good with these players, made the playoffs without them, but somehow they would save this team. 

[familykwi]

On 10/15/2018 at 7:10 PM, zow2 said:

But as others have said they don’t play special teams.  McD could not use them here ?

Let's be clear.  I think it's become evident that the personnel on the current roster cannot play special teams either ?

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Tazor Face said:

It's funny that we weren't good with these players, made the playoffs without them, but somehow they would save this team. 

 

So, Kelvin Benjamin with his poor route running, lack of speed, and stone hands is a better WR than Robert Woods or Marquise Goodwin just because the Bills made the playoffs on a last second TD throw by Andy Dalton?  

[Pirate Angel]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

So, Kelvin Benjamin with his poor route running, lack of speed, and stone hands is a better WR than Robert Woods or Marquise Goodwin just because the Bills made the playoffs on a last second TD throw by Andy Dalton?  

 

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

So, Kelvin Benjamin with his poor route running, lack of speed, and stone hands is a better WR than Robert Woods or Marquise Goodwin just because the Bills made the playoffs on a last second TD throw by Andy Dalton?  

Yeah I didn't say anything about who's better than what...but yeah Benjamin is better than Goodwin and so isn't Zay. Robert woods would have been nice to keep but cap situations and the fact he didn't seem to have much interest resigning, with no QB and a chance to play closer to home. And to add Watkins he is loaded with talent but hasn't exactly lit it up in his career which gives me the impression he has no more heart than Benjamin.

[billsfan5121]

I didn’t read through the whole thread, but to me, this is more of an indictment on Taylor than anyone else.  That’s a lot of talent to not do much with.

[BigDingus]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:31 PM, RPbillsfan said:

Hard to believe this was our WR group in 2014-2015 in comparison to the hot garbage we are fielding now.

 

Makes me ill

Should make you even more ill that we could've had Odell & Mahomes on the same squad, plus the draft stock invested in both Watkins & Allen.