Can you ruin a rookie QB?

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Idandria said:

It was a weird play in Arizona where the safety blitzed and was totally unblocked. Had Trent not been a rookie, maybe he would have picked it up. A QB with experience sees these things coming. A rookie may not, and can get blasted as a result.

 

And actually wasnt ruined by it but it is a simple excuse 

[Nelius]

I think you can ruin a rookie QB, but I don't agree that playing a rookie QB early ruins them at all. Hell, start that rookie Day 1. Not everybody has a Favre/Rodgers situation. Making a rookie learn the job early, like any job really, is not a death sentence. The over-achievers will prosper.

 

What I do think ruins them is the indecisiveness and paranoia from coaching staffs/owners/whatever that causes rookie QBs to get pulled two games after you start them. Who then start them again two games later, and then rinse, repeat, etc. That seems more reserved for project QBs taken too early (EJ, Kizer), and it just does not seem to ever work out.

 

Allen is raw, but is not a project QB. He's an A+ ideal mold of a prototypical 2018 QB, so you just can't pull him after starting him in fears of ruining his mental. You need to just keep running him out there at this point. That shouldn't ruin him if he's a true #1, but the horrible injuries that he may sustain behind this line definitely could.

[MAJBobby]

Was Goff ruined getting sacked 4 times a day his rookie year And looking all around like trash?

 

or Wentz? What about Watson ruined because of the knee inj, or what about to good Carr?

Edited September 13, 2018 by MAJBobby

[Nelius]

14 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Was Goff ruined getting sacked 4 times a day his rookie year And looking all around like trash?

 

or Wentz? What about Watson ruined because of the knee inj, or what about to good Carr?

 

No, no, no, and no. All good points.

 

If you have anybody talented that plays anywhere near a real #1 then you run them out. I was honestly surprised that Peterman even started week 1, but better somewhat late than never I guess.

 

Starting talented rookie QBs is more the norm right now than the whole sit, wait, and cultivate idea that seems to be so popular but yet has really only successfully happened like three times in NFL history. Constant fortune only shines upon Satan worshipping freaks like Robert Kraft. You rarely have a Tom Brady sitting in your stable who has learned for 2 or 3 years and is just ready to go, coach! You all remember Charlie Whitehurst? It felt like that guy was cultivated to be the next #1 QB for something like a decade and it never panned out. Waiting is not always the best idea.

 

Add Trubisky to that start immediately list, who actually looks to have taken a step forward this year.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Nelius

[Ol Dirty B]

2 hours ago, aceman_16 said:

David Carr waves hello (after his record breaking 76 sack rookie season).

 

David Carr sucked. Did anyone actually watch David Carr?

 

Or is he just conveniently trotted out to make a point you agree with? I see all these people talking about David Carr but I know you weren't watching the expansion Texans. 

[MAJBobby]

9 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

No, no, no, and no. All good points.

 

If you have anybody talented that plays anywhere near a real #1 then you run them out. I was honestly surprised that Peterman even started week 1, but better somewhat late than never I guess.

 

Starting talented rookie QBs is more the norm right now than the whole sit, wait, and cultivate idea that seems to be so popular but yet has really only successfully happened like three times in NFL history. Constant fortune only shines upon Satan worshipping freaks like Robert Kraft. You rarely have a Tom Brady sitting in your stable who has learned for 2 or 3 years and is just ready to go, coach! You all remember Charlie Whitehurst? It felt like that guy was cultivated to be the next #1 QB for something like a decade and it never panned out. Waiting is not always the best idea.

 

Add Trubisky to that start immediately list, who actually looks to have taken a step forward this year.

 

It just goes back to the old thinking of these NFL types. There is such little innovation in this league. Instead the old thinking types dominate this league and people absolutely love them for some reason. I guess it is because it is what they have been told all their lives 

[Boludo]

Here are all the QBs that got drafted and immediately started week 1 of their rookie year. It contains half the starters in the league. You don't ruin young QBs - the bad ones sink, the good ones swim. 

2008:

• Matt Ryan (1st round)
• Joe Flacco (1st round)

2009:

• Matthew Stafford (1st overall)
• Mark Sanchez (1st round)

2010:

• Sam Bradford (1st overall)

2011:

• Cam Newton (1st overall)
• Andy Dalton (2nd round)

2012:

• Andrew Luck (1st overall)
• Robert Griffin III (1st round)
• Ryan Tannehill (1st round)
• Brandon Weeden (1st round)
• Russell Wilson (3rd round)

2013:

• EJ Manual (1st round)
• Geno Smith (2nd round)

2014:

• Derek Carr (2nd round)

2015:

• Jameis Winston (1st overall)
• Marcus Mariota (1st round)

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

David Carr sucked. Did anyone actually watch David Carr?

 

Or is he just conveniently trotted out to make a point you agree with? I see all these people talking about David Carr but I know you weren't watching the expansion Texans. 

 

Wait what you mean his 4.9 sacks didnt ruin him. Goff only had 4 sacks a game so that is a entire .9 sacks more. It obviously ruined the bad carr. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sarcasm off 

[Ol Dirty B]

35 minutes ago, Idandria said:

It was a weird play in Arizona where the safety blitzed and was totally unblocked. Had Trent not been a rookie, maybe he would have picked it up. A QB with experience sees these things coming. A rookie may not, and can get blasted as a result.

 

And from that point decided he could never throw down field? That's a weird symptom of a concussion. It's far more likely the league got tape on him and took away the little he could do.

[MAJBobby]

2 hours ago, aceman_16 said:

David Carr waves hello (after his record breaking 76 sack rookie season).

 

How does his 4.9 sacks a game ruin him BUT 

Goffs 4.0 sacks a game DONT ruin him?

 

?

1 minute ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

And from that point decided he could never throw down field? That's a weird symptom of a concussion. It's far more likely the league got tape on him and took away the little he could do.

 

Ding ding ding. He was a Third round pick for a reason. But people love thinking he was on his way to being the next Montana before that hit, because Walsh said so, but the reality is he was playing like a 3rd round pick and the league caught up to him. 

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, TonyBeets said:

David Carr is the only QB I feel was ruined.  In recent times anyway.

Carr is the perfect example. Played behind a terrible oline his rookie year and it destroyed him. I just don't want to see Josh Allen suffer the same fate. God I wish we signed a good veteran quarterback rather than stick with Peterman or McCarron.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Carr is the perfect example. Played behind a terrible oline his rookie year and it destroyed him. I just don't want to see Josh Allen suffer the same fate. God I wish we signed a good veteran quarterback rather than stick with Peterman or McCarron.

 

Why did his 4.9 sacks a rookie season ruin him

 

but 

 

Goff 4.0 sacks a game roomie season didnt ruin him?

 

 

more likely it was Carr wasnt that good and well goff is. Interesting huh?

Edited September 13, 2018 by MAJBobby

[Victory Formation]

Typically coaches get 3 years, if even the best QB gets stuck with a moron coach, yes they can get ruined, look at Andrew Luck, his career would be vastly different with say Sean McVay as his head coach. Luck's career was almost ruined and he is a generational prospect, most QBs aren't good enough to overcome what he has.. If McD and Daboll are morons, Allen will likely bust, only time will tell.

[Nelius]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Carr is the perfect example. Played behind a terrible oline his rookie year and it destroyed him. I just don't want to see Josh Allen suffer the same fate. God I wish we signed a good veteran quarterback rather than stick with Peterman or McCarron.

 

But on the other hand David Carr is also the best real chance that the Raiders have had since friggin' Gannon. 15 years!

[jr1]

rookie QBs are 3-4 years older than LeBron James was when he made his NBA debut. There's no need to coddle

[Scott7975]

no.  I don't believe so.

[VW82]

Coaches will seemingly do anything to protect a QB's confidence. Pete Carroll apparently traded, cut, or didn't re-sign several veteran members of the Seahawks this off season because they dared to question Russell Wilson.

 

Countless teams over the years have held their rookie QBs back from starting in order to not expose them to the potential of immediate failure or adversity before they were ready, including the Browns, Cards, and up until Peterman crapping the bed, the Bills, this year.

 

Clearly the NFL thinks you can ruin QBs. Sometimes sports leagues have medieval thinking. I don't think this is one of those times.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by VW82

[Boatdrinks]

Jim Kelly was sacked a whopping 153 times in his first 3 pro seasons. 75 in his first USFL year. Adversity simply reveals the quality of the player, it doesn’t change it. You can’t ruin a QB.

[Doc Brown]

I remember Jim Kelly getting manhandled by the Jets d-line his first start.  He turned out okay.

[aceman_16]

53 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

How does his 4.9 sacks a game ruin him BUT 

Goffs 4.0 sacks a game DONT ruin him? ?

 

'Cause 4.9 is basically 25% more than 4? And btw....  25% more is significant!

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Do you think Tom Brady would still be in the league if he played for the bills??

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

If he can be “ruined” then the reality is he was never going to he good and the reasons for “ruining” him are excuses made 

How did the Bills ruin him?  They didnt. He took a hit and got gun shy is that on the Bills or is that on the weak mental fortitude of the freaking player 

 

Here's what bothers me about this philosophy.  By definition, it makes the question of whether a young QB can be "ruined" or not, impossible to assess because the conclusion precludes the question. 

 

"Mental fortitude" is by definition a nebulous internal quality, unlike footwork or ball velocity.   So if a promising rookie QB never develops under bad coaching or poor team play, he is, by this philosophy, automatically defined as having this nebulous quality and lacking the traits to be good. 

 

The conclusion essentially defines the question out of existence.  I mean, think about it - if a QB *were* able to be ruined, with this philosphy, how could you tell?  You couldn't.  You'd say "ah, he's a kitty, he never had what it takes anyway"

 

Folks do that on a number of issues, it's not exactly a sound or open-minded approach.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

Typically coaches get 3 years, if even the best QB gets stuck with a moron coach, yes they can get ruined, look at Andrew Luck, his career would be vastly different with say Sean McVay as his head coach. Luck's career was almost ruined and he is a generational prospect, most QBs aren't good enough to overcome what he has.. If McD and Daboll are morons, Allen will likely bust, only time will tell.

 

Actually this brings up an interesting point.

 

Alex Smith and Sam Bradford, two QB who played very badly their first years in the league but later made good, were both drafted before the current CBO with its rookie salary cap.  So their teams couldn't just throw them out and move on, it would have cost too much.  Therefore they both got to "hang in there" until they got with a coach who helped them improve, long past the point where the league had written them off as busts.  Alex Smith once made a list of "top 5 QB busts of all time". (I'm sure he's got that under plexi in a room somewhere and re-reads it for inspiration.)

 

It's entirely possible that a number of QB today who get written off as busts or crap, would succeed if given more time or placed from the start with better coaching and a better system.

 

7 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Jim Kelly was sacked a whopping 153 times in his first 3 pro seasons. 75 in his first USFL year. Adversity simply reveals the quality of the player, it doesn’t change it. You can’t ruin a QB.

 

Well, you know.  One viewpoint is that he choked in 4 Superbowls, and probably getting drunk out of his gourd and being pukey the next day contributed.  As I understand it, he had the tendency to get drunk the night before games and be found hugging the porcelain throne and puking pre-game.

 

Maybe if he didn't get sacked 3+ times per game for 4 years and pounded more, he would have developed different pre-game habits and been better yet?  We don't know.

[billsredneck1]

10 hours ago, gobillsatthebeach said:

You can ruin him by putting him behind an inferior offensive line that can't properly protect and risk serious  injury. Trading McCarron was a BIG mistake.

 

bolded= wtf were they thinking? they had to the end of october trade deadline and possibly could have gotten much more for him.  huge,huge,huge mcbrainfart....

[Golden*Wheels]

This situation is not ideal and we shouldn't be here. But, David Carr was always gonna be David Carr IMO.

 

I do worry about Josh's physical self. And obviously a team's make up and plans effect the Qb's career performance. But if a rough year "ruins" him mentally, like really turns him into a Carr-esque turtle who hides in his shell, he wasn't that mentally strong to begin with.

 

Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it, and all that.

[MAJBobby]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Here's what bothers me about this philosophy.  By definition, it makes the question of whether a young QB can be "ruined" or not, impossible to assess because the conclusion precludes the question. 

 

"Mental fortitude" is by definition a nebulous internal quality, unlike footwork or ball velocity.   So if a promising rookie QB never develops under bad coaching or poor team play, he is, by this philosophy, automatically defined as having this nebulous quality and lacking the traits to be good. 

 

The conclusion essentially defines the question out of existence.  I mean, think about it - if a QB *were* able to be ruined, with this philosphy, how could you tell?  You couldn't.  You'd say "ah, he's a kitty, he never had what it takes anyway"

 

Folks do that on a number of issues, it's not exactly a sound or open-minded approach.

 

 

 

I can understand that. However the other side of the argument is also just as nebulous right?  So people should look at what can be measured and known.  It is known you learn more with reps good and bad reps all ate reaching points. So there really is no such thing as a “bad” rep in terms of learning and development. So get those reps at real speed. 

 

Also best way to evaluate somone is under pressure. So does he revert to Wyoming mechanics and play or is what he is learning with Palmer and Bills sticking and becoming muscle memory?

[Bray Wyatt]

4 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

This situation is not ideal and we shouldn't be here. But, David Carr was always gonna be David Carr IMO.

 

I do worry about Josh's physical self. And obviously a team's make up and plans effect the Qb's career performance. But if a rough year "ruins" him mentally, like really turns him into a Carr-esque turtle who hides in his shell, he wasn't that mentally strong to begin with.

 

Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it, and all that.

 

This is what I believe as well. Even the examples of Alex Smith mentioned above. He obviously wasn't ruined.

 

Also Trent Edwards had one of his best games once he returned, after that Adrian Wilson hit, against the Chargers. It wasnt the hit that ruined him.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Bray Wyatt

[billsbackto81]

10 hours ago, Boca BIlls said:

If a QB gets ruined he was never meant to be a franchise QB in the first place.

Tend to agree with this. Some may come into a more friendly situation like Darnold, Mahomes and to an extent Jimmy G but all have to perform to make the grade regardless of talent around them. Iron sharpens iron! Elway, Kelly, Aikman, Manning all had to tough it out during an era when QBs weren't coddled.

 

Some like Alex Smith and Cousins can take years to develop before they become franchise type material.

Edited September 13, 2018 by billsbackto81

[Ayjent]

8 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Was Goff ruined getting sacked 4 times a day his rookie year And looking all around like trash?

 

or Wentz? What about Watson ruined because of the knee inj, or what about to good Carr?

Goff may still very well look like trash and be on his way out had Fisher remained coach.  Good coaching and player develop matter a lot, as much as natural ability.  I think you need both to be successful in the NFL as a QB, and it's not a one or the other proposition.  Good coaching can make a marginal talent look passable, and good talent look great, but it can't really make a bad QB magically into a passable starter.  There are guys that just don't have what it takes and it is usually pretty clear off the bat.  It's not always the case, but look at Watson and Darnold the past two years (played well right away).  You can see guys like Wilson, Prescott, Newton and Ryan who also came into the league playing well.  Goff is a good demonstration of what bad coaching vs. good coaching can do to a QB.  Sometimes guys are so good they can overcome bad coaching and shine, but not all can (see Alex Smith and how his career turnaround once he was coached by Harbaugh/Roman, then another QB friendly coach in Reid, and now another one in Jay Gruden). 

 

Some guys do take a little time to develop, some guys come out and they are who they are with a little improvement along the way.  Andy Dalton is who he is - he's been about as good as he's been since he started as a rookie, not much improvement.  Matt Stafford improved a lot more, but he's still prone to making silly mistakes that have plagued him since he was a rookie.  Mariotta has improved some since starting, but not a ton.  Winston has improved a little but still does things that are maddening.

[zow2]

Well, we have an example of a ruined QB on our own team.  His name is Peterman.  Started too soon, had a couple bad days, now gun shy and can't overcome adversity and the speed of a real game. 

[HOUSE]

A smart QB no. You can ruin a QB unable to read a defense after 2 years. Shouldn't be on the field.

Josh will be fine

 

 

[MAJBobby]

5 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

Goff may still very well look like trash and be on his way out had Fisher remained coach.  Good coaching and player develop matter a lot, as much as natural ability.  I think you need both to be successful in the NFL as a QB, and it's not a one or the other proposition.  Good coaching can make a marginal talent look passable, and good talent look great, but it can't really make a bad QB magically into a passable starter.  There are guys that just don't have what it takes and it is usually pretty clear off the bat.  It's not always the case, but look at Watson and Darnold the past two years (played well right away).  You can see guys like Wilson, Prescott, Newton and Ryan who also came into the league playing well.  Goff is a good demonstration of what bad coaching vs. good coaching can do to a QB.  Sometimes guys are so good they can overcome bad coaching and shine, but not all can (see Alex Smith and how his career turnaround once he was coached by Harbaugh/Roman, then another QB friendly coach in Reid, and now another one in Jay Gruden). 

 

Some guys do take a little time to develop, some guys come out and they are who they are with a little improvement along the way.  Andy Dalton is who he is - he's been about as good as he's been since he started as a rookie, not much improvement.  Matt Stafford improved a lot more, but he's still prone to making silly mistakes that have plagued him since he was a rookie.  Mariotta has improved some since starting, but not a ton.  Winston has improved a little but still does things that are maddening.

 

Yes I agree with all of that. But a QB getting hit early in his career like Carr, the main talking point about ruining a Rookie QB is A pretty weak take. 

3 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Well, we have an example of a ruined QB on our own team.  His name is Peterman.  Started too soon, had a couple bad days, now gun shy and can't overcome adversity and the speed of a real game. 

 

Do we? Or do we have what this specific 5th round pick was going to be?

[Ayjent]

1 minute ago, zow2 said:

Well, we have an example of a ruined QB on our own team.  His name is Peterman.  Started too soon, had a couple bad days, now gun shy and can't overcome adversity and the speed of a real game. 

Doubtful he has what it takes even if everything was "properly" handled.  He doesn't have enough arm strength and he doesn't have enough tools to overcome that issue.  Couple that with the fact that he doesn't make great decisions under pressure and you have a guy that probably doesn't last in the league very long.  I'll give you that the Bills may have accelerated the time table for him to get out of the league, but Peterman doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL starter, and its doubtful he has what it takes to be a backup.

[zow2]

3 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

Doubtful he has what it takes even if everything was "properly" handled.  He doesn't have enough arm strength and he doesn't have enough tools to overcome that issue.  Couple that with the fact that he doesn't make great decisions under pressure and you have a guy that probably doesn't last in the league very long.  I'll give you that the Bills may have accelerated the time table for him to get out of the league, but Peterman doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL starter, and its doubtful he has what it takes to be a backup.

 

I don't disagree at all.  I also think McD totally botched it...not only by starting him vs LA but leaving him in for 5 Int's.  I recall sitting there after the 3rd one yelling at the screen to pull the kid and put TT in.  I mean who is stubborn enough to leave a QB in till their 5th Int?   That's like a hockey coach pulling the goalie only after he lets in a 10th goal.   McD made the kid the butt of national jokes,,, and Peterman himself etched his name in NFL-joke history with his performance in Baltimore.  His career is effectively over.   

[Ayjent]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Yes I agree with all of that. But a QB getting hit early in his career like Carr, the main talking point about ruining a Rookie QB is A pretty weak take. 

 

Do we? Or do we have what this specific 5th round pick was going to be?

The question about Carr was how much did he have to do with getting hit so much.  I think he had a lot to do with it, because he had poor pocket presence and he really was never that good at making quick reads and getting rid of the ball - he was a skittish QB and it wasn't just the OL in front of him.  It's one of the things that worries me about Allen to be honest, he holds the ball too long and gets a little skittish back in the pocket as well.  It's not a consistent trait, because sometimes he moves well in the pocket and makes the right call when to tuck and run, but he needs to be more fluid in the pocket and be quicker getting the ball out even if he has to force some throws into tight coverage.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

The question about Carr was how much did he have to do with getting hit so much.  I think he had a lot to do with it, because he had poor pocket presence and he really was never that good at making quick reads and getting rid of the ball - he was a skittish QB and it wasn't just the OL in front of him.  It's one of the things that worries me about Allen to be honest, he holds the ball too long and gets a little skittish back in the pocket as well.  It's not a consistent trait, because sometimes he moves well in the pocket and makes the right call when to tuck and run, but he needs to be more fluid in the pocket and be quicker getting the ball out even if he has to force some throws into tight coverage.

 

Agree but how do you get thru that. REPS. Not sitting you have to see real bullets. 

[transient]

I think a young QB can be “ruined,” but I don’t think it’s from bad play or a lack of supporting talent on the field, I think it’s due to poor coaching off the field and lack of support through the growing pains.

 

Case use in point, I don’t think EJ would have succeeded long term, but starting him in his rookie season when his QB coach also happened to be an OC who was in his first year in the NFL under a surly head coach who didn’t want to develop a rookie QB seemed like doubling down on his failure to me. 

 

I don’t know if this is the right staff to develop Allen, but unless we’re going to have him ride the pine until the next regime change it’s the lot he was, and we as fans were, dealt. Let’s hope they can set the right expectations and guide him through the bumps. 

[Ayjent]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Agree but how do you get thru that. REPS. Not sitting you have to see real bullets. 

No argument here, but he also needs real coaching and we're about to find out what we have in that department.  They obviously didn't think he was ready, but can you really trust the "process" when it comes to judging QB talent?  Early results are in and the answer is looking like a "no", but I hold out hope that they can get this turned around.  Maybe Allen has it start coming together for him over the next couple of games, but he needs a game plan and play calling that helps him succeed. 

[TheElectricCompany]

There is never a perfect time to play a young QB. 

You'll always have holes somewhere on the OL, not enough playmakers on the outside, an inconsistent running attack, questionable scheme, etc. 

 

[Luka]

The argument for sitting a rookie QB is only valid if you have another, viable option on the roster. The examples that people always bring up are guys that sat behind all pros and hall of famers. We don't have one of those. There's really no point in waiting, the kid is football smart, he needs the in game experience.