Patrick Mahomes Lighting up the Chargers

[billieve420]

22 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Doug Whaley watched college tape and concluded that EJ Manuel was worth a first rounder, whereas Dashaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes were not worth a first round pick. 

 

And our new GM traded Glenn, #12, #53, #56 for a project from the Mountain West

 

You can’t make this stuff up. 

 

The common denominator? Both GMs talked about arm strength, size, and “presence” while saying nothing about how the quarterback accurately threw a football. 

 

There were reports that Whaley liked Watson that year. Whose to say he wouldn’t have drafted him if he was in charge. McDermott ran the draft and made the picks that year.

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/04/buffalo_bills_gm_doug_whaley_in_love_with_clemson_qb_deshaun_watson_report.html

[KOKBILLS]

If I was the Bills GM Mahomes would be our QB...

 

The proof is right here at TBD...I would have taken him #1 overall...

 

One good performance does not make me right...But...I loved that kid coming out...

 

And the year before I would have taken Chris Jones where we took Lawson...

 

I think, at the very least, maybe I can get a job Scouting for KC...?

[Big Turk]

30 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

6 of 15 with 3 sacks disagrees. 

Had a couple drops and admittedly a bad throw or two.  He will be OK he just needs some time IMHO. He is better than Peterman in real games that's for damn sure.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

Had a couple drops and admittedly a bad throw or two.  He will be OK he just needs some time IMHO. He is better than Peterman in real games that's for damn sure.

 

None of us know if he'll be okay. Historically speaking, he probably isn't going to be any good when you consider that over 50% of all 1st rounders bust. 

 

I worry for his development. He's going to have to start up to 15 games for arguably the worst team in the NFL and I don't think that will do anything to aid his development. 

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

None of us know if he'll be okay. Historically speaking, he probably isn't going to be any good when you consider that over 50% of all 1st rounders bust. 

 

I worry for his development. He's going to have to start up to 15 games for arguably the worst team in the NFL and I don't think that will do anything to aid his development. 

Good players will become good no matter how bad the team is...look at Peyton Mannings first year in Indy..they were terrible but he turned out OK

[PlayoffsPlease]

2 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

The bigger difference between the two is that Mahomes plays for a competent head coach and organization. 

To be fair to Mahomes, he will never have an opportunity to sit behind and learn from Nate Peterman. 

[jrober38]

Just now, matter2003 said:

Good players will become good no matter how bad the team is...look at Peyton Mannings first year in Indy..they were terrible but he turned out OK

 

There is zero evidence that suggests Josh Allen is a good NFL player.

 

He wasn't even a good college football player. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

Good players will become good no matter how bad the team is...look at Peyton Mannings first year in Indy..they were terrible but he turned out OK

Aikman finished 1989 with a 0–11 record as a starter, completing 155 of 293 passes for 1,749 yards, 9 touchdowns and 18 interceptions. Following Aikman's rookie season, Dallas selected Florida Gators RB Emmitt Smith in the first round of the 1990 NFL Draft.

His career ended up ok. 

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

There is zero evidence that suggests Josh Allen is a good NFL player.

 

He wasn't even a good college football player. 

 

So then why are you concerned about his development. If he sucks, he sucks and we move on.  It won't be because he played with a bad team. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by PlayoffsPlease

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The big problem with kicking the young QB decision down the road in 2017 was the urgency it created to trade players and get capital for the 2018 draft.

 

They gutted this roster and have put the young QB in a perilous situation.

 

 

 

 

Or they have just accepted the fact that the OL is going to be putrid this year and are going to address it next year.

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Or they have just accepted the fact that the OL is going to be putrid this year and are going to address it next year.

 

O-line.......wide receivers.......defense to help keep scores close enough to allow for defensive balance........it's not just the OL.

 

Here's the deal John.......they are going to have the opportunity to get early, if not FIRST cracks at in-season waiver claims and have lot's of job opportunities to offer other teams stashed practice squad players........and they NEED to parlay that into some talent BEFORE next year.

 

I've said it before but these personnel people the team hired were spoken of in hushed tones because they were supposedly so great and Pegula's were paying thru the nose for them..........they need to be mining some gems and so far the gem haul has been pretty non-existent(especially on the OL) and this veteran free agent class they brought in?   Wow.

Edited September 10, 2018 by BADOLBILZ

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

I won’t argue I’m a big mahomes guy. But I’ll loop these arguments around to a few concerns:

 

1) are you confident in a system that would allow burning an off-season because they can’t evaluate an nfl qb with a ton of film?

 

2) are you confident we can do that with a college qb if we couldn’t with Taylor?

 

3) If you don’t think we could develop mahomes, do you think allen is an easier project?

 

4) does it worry you that we didn’t get a group of coaches that seems to inspire confidence in you regarding qb evaluation/development?

 

again, not arguing I love mahomes. I honestly don’t know him that well, but some of the justifications in the thread seem to actually raise much larger red flags instead of putting minds at ease.

Okay, #1, this is a brand new head coach to the NFL and like so many other new NFL head coaches he doesn't know what he doesn't know. So a lot is a learn as you go process. 

 

I can also presuppose that the head coach didn't care to pull the trigger on drafting a QB in 2017 with an early pick when the team had so many other needs. The team did hit a home run with #1 pick in CB Tre White and OT #2, Dion Dawkins. On his own, McD did have the right idea that the team needed a new RT and because of an injury to Glenn that RT went to LT and played admirably. 

 

Then when Beane came in and looked over the books they then had to make some tough choices as the team is in dead cap space of 55 million dollars due to Glenn, Dareus among others. NFN, although Glenn played decently with Incognito next to him he wasn't a consistent pro bowl LT worth 12 mill per in my view. So I can see why the team traded him. I can also see why they dumped Dareus, Watkins, and others. Next year the team should have much more cap space available to sign players. 

 

So far I really like what McD/Beane have done so far, save not doing a better job of upgrading that offensive line.

 

#2, I can see why this new coaching staff would want to evaluate a QB in their own scheme because it's difficult to evaluate a QB when you don't know the plays being called and the options the QB has on each play regardless of how much film you watch. So this new coaching staff gave the man an honest shot to earn the job full time and he failed.    

 

The plan this year was to start/play Peterman in a quick strike, a pass-first offense that would help neutralize the pass rush and allow for a much more wide open passing scheme. 

 

That plan went into the toilet by the 3rd quarter in the Ravens game as Peterman was pulled and Allen went in. Going forward I hope to god that the new Bills OC sees the error of his ways and goes back to a run-first offensive scheme to run the ball to set up the pass and allow Allen a chance to develop.   

 

#3, Allen came from a pro-style offensive scheme at Wyoming in which he didn't have many short dump off throws, bubble screens which can pad stats like some of those other early QB picks. So most of Allen's throws were deep pro-style throws. He also played in the snow and cold in Wyoming so the weather in Buffalo won't be a factor. To me, Allen looks like the prototypical perfect fit QB for the Buffalo Bills. He should be an easier project to develop over a constant shotgun spread offense QB as in my view as most of those don't work out in the NFL.   

 

#4, New Bills OC Brian Daboll came in with a history of working in NE with Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, working at Alabama with Nick Saban.  I can already tell you that his first attempt at play calling, offensive scheme setup failed in that Ravens game. I can also say I really dislike the Bills run game coordinator/O line coach in Juan Castillo. The passing game with Peterman stunk and the run game stunk as McCoy wasn't getting much space to work with.  

 

Bottom line:  From what I see this team needs to return to what worked for them in the past few years with being a run-first team so they can run to set up the pass. This way it should help develop Josh Allen properly and he might survive the season. Otherwise, fire those two jamokes (Daboll, Castillio) and hire ex-Lions HC Jim Caldwell to run the offense.                                 

[mjohns85]

Did anyone that has commented on this actually watch any of the highlights?!?! Go back and watch the clips from all four of Mahomes TD’s and let’s hear how we blew it by passing on him. Two touchdowns were little shovel passes inside the five. One a slant to Hill who took it to the house with his world class speed, and the other being a wheel route to his FB. Yes, 4 touchdowns look impressive on paper, but he completed 15 passes. I am not saying he won’t be good, but whoever is complaining, didn’t watch the highlights and are strictly commenting based on the stat line. 

[Doc Brown]

Who was the idiot I debated a month or so ago that claimed Andy Reid wasn't a QB guru and that Mahomes would fail?  Come out of the woodwork.  

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, mjohns85 said:

Did anyone that has commented on this actually watch any of the highlights?!?! Go back and watch the clips from all four of Mahomes TD’s and let’s hear how we blew it by passing on him. Two touchdowns were little shovel passes inside the five. One a slant to Hill who took it to the house with his world class speed, and the other being a wheel route to his FB. Yes, 4 touchdowns look impressive on paper, but he completed 15 passes. I am not saying he won’t be good, but whoever is complaining, didn’t watch the highlights and are strictly commenting based on the stat line. 

One game doesn't define a career either. 

 

Look at Ryan Fitzpatrick today 21 of 28 for 414 yards, 4 Tds ...49 fan points.

 

Mahomes went 15 of 27 for 256 yards, 4 TDs...36 fan points.

 

This was his first game this year and defenses adjust, so let's see what he looks like down the road a bit. 

[T master]

4 hours ago, Steptide said:

Chargers actually don't look very good at all

 

Until next week !! 

[TheFunPolice]

Reid has an imagination.

 

Here the coaches always say you need to run the ball to set up the punter and hope the other team fumbles it tosses an int to you... Because the weather and all

[tonawandarock]

7 minutes ago, mjohns85 said:

Did anyone that has commented on this actually watch any of the highlights?!?! Go back and watch the clips from all four of Mahomes TD’s and let’s hear how we blew it by passing on him. Two touchdowns were little shovel passes inside the five. One a slant to Hill who took it to the house with h pastis world class speed, and the other being a wheel route to his FB. Yes, 4 touchdowns look impressive on paper, but he completed 15 passes. I am not saying he won’t be good, but whoever is complaining, didn’t watch the highlights and are strictly commenting based on the stat line. 

Exactly!  I noted earlier(jokingly) that he only completed 56% of his passes today.  He made some plays obviously but can we hold off the HOF balloting for a bit?  The guy plays in an Andy Reid offense.   KC flys outta the gates but we all know how they finish.   

[Big Blitz]

Fitz had a day too.  Should have never let him go.  

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[BuffaloButt]

Two of Mahomes TD passes were forward handoffs, gimmicks that Tom Brady does as well.  If Mahomes was in Buffalo he would be struggling with our team.  I'd rather have him than Allen any day and our old management (before Beane) botched that pick!

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, BuffaloButt said:

Two of Mahomes TD passes were forward handoffs, gimmicks that Tom Brady does as well.  If Mahomes was in Buffalo he would be struggling with our team.  I'd rather have him than Allen any day and our old management (before Beane) botched that pick!

 

The TD pass to FB Anthony Sherman was spectacular.

[Rocbillsfan1]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

The flip side is- sit him behind Tyrod and use the boat load of picks to acquire all that instead of dismantling the team to trade up for the qb. 

 

I dont know the thought process behind why they loved allen but traded out of Mahoney but it’s an interesting enough discussion 

I think the answer is easy. They weren't going to let Whaley draft another QB being a lame duck GM and Mcdermott wasn't going to go out on a limb and have a QB picked without having his guys in the front office in charge of helping him pick one. Plus I think they had an idea there were going to be a bunch of potential first round Qbs this year which proved to be correct. I still think Darnold was their first choice though if they had the first pick.

[Kelly the Dog]

31 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The TD pass to FB Anthony Sherman was spectacular.

I thought it was routine. Nice pass but he was wide open. Not like he had to put it over one guy and under another. Or thread a needle. It hit him on the run. Really nice pass. But not real hard let alone spectacular. 

[BringBackOrton]

11 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I thought it was routine. Nice pass but he was wide open. Not like he had to put it over one guy and under another. Or thread a needle. It hit him on the run. Really nice pass. But not real hard let alone spectacular. 

He put it over the defender who almost got a hand on it.  It was a perfect pass.

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

He put it over the defender who almost got a hand on it.  It was a perfect pass.

I take that back. You and 26 were right. I just went back and watched it and the defender in front was a lot closer than I thought. I was watching the game live and saw the play and it looked like a perfect pass to be but hit him in stride and he ran in untouched. I didn't watch the replay. Again, you guys were right. It was a great pass. 

 

I like Mahomes. I think he's going to put up huge numbers. Hard to think of another guy in the league set up to do so except maybe Goff who has a bunch of good players and a genius coach. 

[Awwufelloff]

Didn't Mahomes sit all of last year behind a vet QB learning the system? He was well prepared for this year with more offensive weapons than any team in the league. Didn't Rodgers, Brady, and Brees sit behind QBS as well learning the system and growing as a QB? When will the Bills learn?!?!

Edited September 10, 2018 by Awwufelloff

[MJS]

Chargers always start off looking like garbage and beating themselves. But they'll get it together later on and look like a playoff team. It may or may not be too late for them by that point.

[Kelly the Dog]

12 minutes ago, Awwufelloff said:

Didn't Mahomes sit all of last year behind a vet QB learning the system? He was well prepared for this year with more offensive weapons than any team in the league. Didn't Rodgers, Brady, and Brees sit behind QBS as well learning the system and growing as a QB? When will the Bills learn?!?!

Rodgers sat behind Farve. They had a stud already and didn't need to play him. Brady only played because Bledsoe got hurt. They had just given Bledsoe the first $100m contract in league history IIRC. It was a fluke. Brees was in a QB competition as a rookie and got beat out by 87 year old Doug Flutie. 

[Zerovoltz]

Someone had asked about the summary of the trade involving Mahomes etc...here it is....but it doesn't include any subsequent moves to get further up in this years draft for Allen.  

 

 

Chiefs Get : 

QB Pat Mahomes (R1 pick 10, 2017)

 

Bills Get:

CB Tre White (R1 pick 27, 2017)

Pick 91 (R3 pick 91, 2017) packaged with other picks for trade up to 37.  Rams used pick on S John Johnson.  Bills go to (R2 pick 37, 2017) and select WR Zay Jones.

Pick 21 (R1 pick 21, 2018) packaged with other picks for trade up to 16.  Ravens traded out with Titans who used the pick on LB Rashaan Evans.  Bills go to (R1 pick 16, 2018) and select LB Tremaine Edmunds.

 

Esentially, after it was all said and done, it was Mahomes for Tre White, Zay Jones and Tre Edmunds more or less ish.

[StrikeParry]

12 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said:

Someone had asked about the summary of the trade involving Mahomes etc...here it is....but it doesn't include any subsequent moves to get further up in this years draft for Allen.  

 

 

Chiefs Get : 

QB Pat Mahomes (R1 pick 10, 2017)

 

Bills Get:

CB Tre White (R1 pick 27, 2017)

Pick 91 (R3 pick 91, 2017) packaged with other picks for trade up to 37.  Rams used pick on S John Johnson.  Bills go to (R2 pick 37, 2017) and select WR Zay Jones.

Pick 21 (R1 pick 21, 2018) packaged with other picks for trade up to 16.  Ravens traded out with Titans who used the pick on LB Rashaan Evans.  Bills go to (R1 pick 16, 2018) and select LB Tremaine Edmunds.

 

Esentially, after it was all said and done, it was Mahomes for Tre White, Zay Jones and Tre Edmunds more or less ish.

Just came to say you are probably right about Mahomes.

[Zerovoltz]

1 hour ago, StrikeParry said:

Just came to say you are probably right about Mahomes.

 

I don't need to do that....I've made that case all over this board...no need to do it again right now....

 

Consider this Bills fans.....IF you all believe in the process etc....then you really need to embrace what that entails...WAY too many of you (not all) haven't honestly considered what the current FO is having to do here....

 

1.  You are in salary cap hell.  There simply isn't any magic that fixes that until you get past all this dead money.  

2.  You did in fact draft a QB who isn't ready to go out of the box.  That's FINE for now as long as you understand that is what you have right now...and even if he is more ready than that, your roster isn't.

3.  Your team made the playoffs in a year where you had a negative point differential and some stuff fell your way.  Matt Cassel once led one of the worst Chiefs teams I have ever seen, to a division title using smoke a mirrors one year...the schedule broke just right, every bounce went our way...the underlying stats and the eye test told us all they were awful.  The Bills are aweful, and they weren't that much less awful last year.

 

Given that...at this point, you are on schedule.  If you can just come to terms with the idea that THIS year is going to be miserable and it has to be that way to wait out the cap and to develope your QB, you'll be fine.  in 2019, you'll be picking top of draft and have money to spend....AND if it is meant to be, then Allen will have become more NFL ready.  You can then spend big on that roster to actually then find out if the QB you have is the man.

 

This may or may not work but at MINIMUM, you have to let these guys undue the cap hell and see Allen through enough to determine if they got it right or not.  Any new regime would have to carry through with the SAME plan for the first year at least anyway.  

 

Stay the course.  Watch a lot of college football to see wich D Lineman you like this year...supposed to be a prime D Lineman draft coming up.  Watch some youtubes of your reactions making the playoffs....it sucks, but the real progress can't begin until you get through this year.  Good luck.

[StrikeParry]

2 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

I don't need to do that....I've made that case all over this board...no need to do it again right now....

 

Consider this Bills fans.....IF you all believe in the process etc....then you really need to embrace what that entails...WAY too many of you (not all) haven't honestly considered what the current FO is having to do here....

 

1.  You are in salary cap hell.  There simply isn't any magic that fixes that until you get past all this dead money.  

2.  You did in fact draft a QB who isn't ready to go out of the box.  That's FINE for now as long as you understand that is what you have right now...and even if he is more ready than that, your roster isn't.

3.  Your team made the playoffs in a year where you had a negative point differential and some stuff fell your way.  Matt Cassel once led one of the worst Chiefs teams I have ever seen, to a division title using smoke a mirrors one year...the schedule broke just right, every bounce went our way...the underlying stats and the eye test told us all they were awful.  The Bills are aweful, and they weren't that much less awful last year.

 

Given that...at this point, you are on schedule.  If you can just come to terms with the idea that THIS year is going to be miserable and it has to be that way to wait out the cap and to develope your QB, you'll be fine.  in 2019, you'll be picking top of draft and have money to spend....AND if it is meant to be, then Allen will have become more NFL ready.  You can then spend big on that roster to actually then find out if the QB you have is the man.

 

This may or may not work but at MINIMUM, you have to let these guys undue the cap hell and see Allen through enough to determine if they got it right or not.  Any new regime would have to carry through with the SAME plan for the first year at least anyway.  

 

Stay the course.  Watch a lot of college football to see wich D Lineman you like this year...supposed to be a prime D Lineman draft coming up.  Watch some youtubes of your reactions making the playoffs....it sucks, but the real progress can't begin until you get through this year.  Good luck.

No no...I am saying you were right about Mahomes. Not saying you were here to gloat or anything like that. I appreciate other teams’ fans around here bud.

[Soda Popinski]

LOL Jeffismagic is grinnin ear to ear right now.   

 

Mahomes looked good.    Completion % wasn't great but those throws to Hill were fabulous.  

[Nihilarian]

3 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

I don't need to do that....I've made that case all over this board...no need to do it again right now....

 

Consider this Bills fans.....IF you all believe in the process etc....then you really need to embrace what that entails...WAY too many of you (not all) haven't honestly considered what the current FO is having to do here....

 

1.  You are in salary cap hell.  There simply isn't any magic that fixes that until you get past all this dead money.  

2.  You did in fact draft a QB who isn't ready to go out of the box.  That's FINE for now as long as you understand that is what you have right now...and even if he is more ready than that, your roster isn't.

3.  Your team made the playoffs in a year where you had a negative point differential and some stuff fell your way.  Matt Cassel once led one of the worst Chiefs teams I have ever seen, to a division title using smoke a mirrors one year...the schedule broke just right, every bounce went our way...the underlying stats and the eye test told us all they were awful.  The Bills are aweful, and they weren't that much less awful last year.

 

Given that...at this point, you are on schedule.  If you can just come to terms with the idea that THIS year is going to be miserable and it has to be that way to wait out the cap and to develope your QB, you'll be fine.  in 2019, you'll be picking top of draft and have money to spend....AND if it is meant to be, then Allen will have become more NFL ready.  You can then spend big on that roster to actually then find out if the QB you have is the man.

 

This may or may not work but at MINIMUM, you have to let these guys undue the cap hell and see Allen through enough to determine if they got it right or not.  Any new regime would have to carry through with the SAME plan for the first year at least anyway.  

 

Stay the course.  Watch a lot of college football to see wich D Lineman you like this year...supposed to be a prime D Lineman draft coming up.  Watch some youtubes of your reactions making the playoffs....it sucks, but the real progress can't begin until you get through this year.  Good luck.

I don't think it's as much doom and gloom as you portray. Granted the team won games last year on a formula that is difficult to duplicate in that Tyrod Taylor only threw 4 INTs all year as he was so careful with the ball. The Bills defense was also so very opportunistic with the turnovers so they got lucky in more ways than just turnovers too.

 

This year can be a winning season for Buffalo as they still have a decent amount of talent on the team with McCoy and Murphy at RB. So the Bills NEED to build a run game each week to help take pressure off the QB and the defense. Running the ball will help control the clock and keep the defense off the field and fresh. this last game it was like the Bills didn't even attempt many runs. 

 

That pass-first offense with Peterman against the Ravens didn't even have a first down the entire first half and the team ended with 10 first downs, 5 from Allen, 3 from rushing. Shoot, Peterman went 5 of 18 for 24 yards a 1.3 average, 2 INTs, 3 sacks. A QB rating of .7 which I didn't think was possible. It wasn't that the Ravens defense was so dominating as Peterman had time to throw many times. He just stunk it up with the help of penalties from the line and WRs not getting separation or getting open. 

 

Beane/McD need to find a WR to stretch the field, get separation and a freaking Left guard who can actually block without getting a penalty! All is not lost, not yet anyway. 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I promise myself I won't get jaded about Patrick Mahomes. I loved him so much the season before he got drafted and argued and argued and argued till I was blue in the face he was going to be a Top 10 pick and a future star. 

 

Josh Allen better and Tremaine Edmunds be good man.

[thunderingsquid]

20 hours ago, jrober38 said:

Mahomes is Josh Allen with much better instincts. 

 

It's unfathomable to me that we passed on Mahomes just to go after Allen with a higher pick the next season. 

 

Truly mind boggling. 

 

[FearLess Price]

Cheifs are gonna be a fun team to watch. Mahomes balling out

[MAJBobby]

20 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

3 TDs thus far. 

 

Tends to happen when you get out of a 1960s football mindset and surround you big arm QB with massive passing weapons 

[FearLess Price]

57 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Tends to happen when you get out of a 1960s football mindset and surround you big arm QB with massive passing weapons 

 

Cant talk like that this is Bills football.

 

We make TEs widouts and its alligator arms for everyone. 

[Boatdrinks]

I don’t know how much the Bills liked Mahomes or even Trubisky, but we know they traded down because a new GM was imminent. Pegulas should probably have just cleaned house and hired a GM, then a HC. Regardless, they gambled on the 2018 draft for a QB then unexpectedly made the playoffs. The job got tougher. It may or may not pan out, but if it doesn’t the seeds of failure were planted draft night in 2017.