AJ Mccarron shouldn't be slept on (dont think its been posted yet)

[Sky Diver]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I personally had a thing for JJ Watt that draft, but to give Dareus his propers, he did have some "best DL in the NFL, period" seasons.

He just lacked that lasting passion for football, or maybe Buffalo was an environment that couldn't inspire it in him.

 

 

 

 Such a waste of talent. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

he's a young man with a new team and environment. he may not see a 10 sack season again but he will be force on that DL for the jags for the next few years.

 

other side of the coin is what others think and believe he's been paid and therefore lost his motivation. I disagree.

 

 

 

 

He may even become a regular starter!

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

4 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

He’s already signed by us. But if some other team does sign him, we could get a pretty good compensatory pick I reckon. 

This. Not to mention, if we lost him, Jay Cutler is still out there.

Edited May 17, 2018 by The Real Buffalo Joe

[Mat68]

50 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So here is where I have unaddressed curiousity.  Several have expressed this opinion, so not simply intending to pick on you.

 

A number of NFL pundits, generally considered to be knowledgeable, have expressed the view that Allen is a "high level prospect" who needs to sit and learn for a season, solidifying changes to his mechanics (footwork) and learning to recognize the complexities of an NFL defense on film and master an NFL offense.  So in your viewpoint (and the viewpoint of others expressing this view) are these guys just ignorant, or mistaken, or ????

Imo the people that are high on Allen think that the can play early.  Just like anything Buffalo once 1 or 2 people create a narrative the other player pundits run with what they believe is the prevailing opinion on a subject they dont know well.  The moment Allen gives the Buffalo gives just as good a chance to win as any other Qb on the roster he needs to start.  Yes, he will make some mistakes but he will also learn and improve.  The sooner Allen wins the job, better for the Buffalo Bills.  

[SouthNYfan]

1 hour ago, Sky Diver said:

 

Was the Bengals O-Line really that good? They recently fired their OL coach who had been with the team for 23 years.

 

Dalton took a sack on 4.9% of plays, which was good for #13th best in the league that year amongst starters.

Aj was 9.2% which would put him second to last (#35) for qualifying players.

Smaller sample size for AJ obviously, and he was obviously adjusting to starting, but I think they had a decent line, better than ours is projected this year.

 

35 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

I'm sticking with my assumption of KISS and they gave AJ an offense he could work with and not make hi do more than he was capable for a guy with ZERO starts. 

 

FWIW in 2015 TT had talented group of guys to throw too.  

 

 

I don't disagree with what you said.

I like mccarron better than Tyrod since I think a pocket passer is more consistent than a running QB.

I think our oline isn't great, and that AJ has a good chance to get annihilated behind our line, while Tyrod could at least run and escape better than AJ can, so he covered up some of the oline flaws.

Our receiving corps this year is also nowhere near the bengals 2015, so I'm not sure why pointing out what Tyrod did in 2015 has to do with what AJ is working with this year.

[Sky Diver]

5 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Dalton took a sack on 4.9% of plays, which was good for #13th best in the league that year amongst starters.

Aj was 9.2% which would put him second to last (#35) for qualifying players.

Smaller sample size for AJ obviously, and he was obviously adjusting to starting, but I think they had a decent line, better than ours is projected this year.

 

 

I don't disagree with what you said.

I like mccarron better than Tyrod since I think a pocket passer is more consistent than a running QB.

I think our oline isn't great, and that AJ has a good chance to get annihilated behind our line, while Tyrod could at least run and escape better than AJ can, so he covered up some of the oline flaws.

Our receiving corps this year is also nowhere near the bengals 2015, so I'm not sure why pointing out what Tyrod did in 2015 has to do with what AJ is working with this year.

 

And Dalton was the starter so he got the majority of snaps in practice while McCarron got thrown in after Dalton was injured. Reverse rolls and the numbers might be far different. McCarron also played against too very good defensive teams. Not an apples to apples comparison. Analytics with no context.

[ctk232]

15 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/billswire.usatoday.com/2018/05/16/nfl-network-steve-wych-buffalo-bills-aj-mccarron/amp/

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see what the guy can do. But what are the point of articles like this where the only supporting evidence and reasoning is to "not sleep on him starting" and he's had success in college? Okay...so why?

 

I don't know if Allen is going to be ready for September even without McCarron in the picture - trading up for a project QB hasn't exactly worked for us before...but hey, excited for whatever's next regardless and can't exactly change our cards now. 

[Sky Diver]

Excited to have a consensus top college QB and a demonstrated pocket passer.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

I thought you were making a joke.  The only way I want Allen to sit is if either (a) he shows he's not ready in TC or preseason; or (b) the QB in front of him is playing at a high level.  Sitting and "learning" behind mediocrity isn't going to help anyone.

 

I have a feeling it's going to be obvious in training camp that Allen is head and shoulders (literally and figuratively) above the other QBs on the roster.

 

So do I. They might still go with McCarron early but it will not last long. Remember Houston went with Tom Savage...... for 2 Quarters. 

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So here is where I have unaddressed curiousity.  Several have expressed this opinion, so not simply intending to pick on you.

 

A number of NFL pundits, generally considered to be knowledgeable, have expressed the view that Allen is a "high level prospect" who needs to sit and learn for a season, solidifying changes to his mechanics (footwork) and learning to recognize the complexities of an NFL defense on film and master an NFL offense.  So in your viewpoint (and the viewpoint of others expressing this view) are these guys just ignorant, or mistaken, or ????

 

Obviously there are differing approaches and no proven right/wrong method. Every player, coach, supporting cast, and situation is different.

 

whats tough on pundits are a few issues:

 

1) we don’t know how much they invested in that opinion. Are they all doing the work and getting the same result, or did one guy say cordy Glenn is a guard and everyone just repeated it?

 

2) often nfl guys are old school and even if there’s a new and possibly better way they lean on the old method. In this case, learn from the bench. 

 

There are certainly some that do the work and have highly educated opinions that I might not agree with (likely some on both sides but we don’t know who’s who sometimes)

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Sky Diver said:

 

And Dalton was the starter so he got the majority of snaps in practice while McCarron got thrown in after Dalton was injured. Reverse rolls and the numbers might be far different. McCarron also played against too very good defensive teams. Not an apples to apples comparison. Analytics with no context.

 

You really have reading comprehension problems.

Almost every single response you give people has nothing to do with what their post was pointing to.

You asked if they had a good line that year.

I gave you the sack % with Dalton at #13, then said AJ would have been second to last on the league behind the same line, but included that it was a small sample size, so not that accurate.

I never made ANY inference that aj was at fault there, and said that I just felt they had a better offensive line than we will this year.

I then went on to talk about how tyrods mobility masked a lot of fault with our oline, and that I think AJ, being a pocket guy with less mobility, might get killed back there.

You, as usual, went on to respond with some random aj crusade that had nothing to do with what I posted.

We get it.

You love AJ and all things 'bama.

Try reading the posts you're quoting before responding sometime though, since you seem to fail at that.

[Domdab99]

lol if our QB for the opening game in 2019 is AJ McCarron, the Bills made a huge mistake. 

[Stank_Nasty]

4 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

lol if our QB for the opening game in 2019 is AJ McCarron, the Bills made a huge mistake. 

bit dramatic

[rodneykm]

I think he's going to be a lot better than the negative Nancys here think. 

[Sky Diver]

Why bring up data that isn’t accurate unless you are crusading against McCarron? There obviously isn’t a large enough sample size for McCarron to compare him to Dalton. I think It would have been fair to say that the Bengals OL was likely top of the bottom third to mid tier.

 

I’ve said that McCarron ceiling is likely mid-tier.

 

Football is way too complicated to reduce to simple analytics.  

Edited May 17, 2018 by Sky Diver

[Mrbojanglezs]

3 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Why is it so hard to believe that I want to see a rookie QB developed for once, and not thrown to the wolves?

The only way you develop is by playing. Learning on the bench is a myth. And if Allen starts and plays bad 1st couple games and people worry about him losing his confidence then he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a franchise QB anyway.

[Sky Diver]

And I said that Dareus was a dud is 2nd yr. I call it like I see it.

[Tyrod's friend]

15 hours ago, Mickey said:

You can't beat the logic inherent in the observation: "Hey, who knows? He could be good." Its what those in the biz call "coaching genius". It makes so much more sense than the "nattering nabobs of negativism" saying "Hey, who knows? He could be really, really bad." And that my friends is how you seamlessly work in a Spiro T. Agnew quote into a post about quarterbacks. 

Which is greater ... 
Number of posters that know who Spiro T. Agnew is or 
Number of posters that can tell you who the last Bills punter was that completed a pass.

[eball]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So here is where I have unaddressed curiousity.  Several have expressed this opinion, so not simply intending to pick on you.

 

A number of NFL pundits, generally considered to be knowledgeable, have expressed the view that Allen is a "high level prospect" who needs to sit and learn for a season, solidifying changes to his mechanics (footwork) and learning to recognize the complexities of an NFL defense on film and master an NFL offense.  So in your viewpoint (and the viewpoint of others expressing this view) are these guys just ignorant, or mistaken, or ????

 

I won't say they're ignorant or mistaken...I'll say they simply don't know.  None of us do.  Aaron Rodgers didn't play immediately because a HOFer was still QB'ing the Pack, so he's a terrible example (not that you used him as one but others have).  Would he have been good if he played immediately?  We don't know.  Name a good to great NFL QB who started his career sitting on the bench for 1-2 seasons (who didn't have an entrenched starter ahead of him).  You almost always know what you have pretty quickly, even if the guy takes a few lumps in his rookie season.  In my opinion he learns infinitely more from that experience than he will watching film and carrying the starter's jock around.  Caveat:  this analysis only applies to early 1st round guys -- the ones projected to be potential franchise QBs.  There's a reason they are drafted so highly.

 

Backup QBs don't get much work against a 1st string defense if they aren't playing.  Sure, they watch film, they practice, but I just don't believe they get better by not playing unless they are ridiculously raw coming out of college.  I agree with Beane that Allen is not "raw."

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

The only way you develop is by playing. Learning on the bench is a myth. And if Allen starts and plays bad 1st couple games and people worry about him losing his confidence then he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a franchise QB anyway.

 

Sure, why not?  It's worked so well the past two decades...

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So do I. They might still go with McCarron early but it will not last long. Remember Houston went with Tom Savage...... for 2 Quarters. 

This to me is terrible logic.  Obviously, Watson was the better Qb and no reason why he should have took all those snaps from Watson in Tc and Preseason.  It took Watson about 3 weeks before he was rolling.  If he had those reps early he would have gotten to playing at a higher level sooner.  After the first preseason game Watson was the better player.   

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

This to me is terrible logic.  Obviously, Watson was the better Qb and no reason why he should have took all those snaps from Watson in Tc and Preseason.  It took Watson about 3 weeks before he was rolling.  If he had those reps early he would have gotten to playing at a higher level sooner.  After the first preseason game Watson was the better player.   

 

It actually only took Watson a game to get rolling. He was only average his first start on a short week at Cincy on TNF. He was excellent after that. 

 

I agree it is poor logic though. It isn't what I would do. It is what I think they might do. 

[ddaryl]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

lol if our QB for the opening game in 2019 is AJ McCarron, the Bills made a huge mistake. 

 

 

There is nothing wrong about easing a QB into the NFL. Many rookie QB's don't start the 1st few games, many sit a year.. Some come out and start hot and fade away after teams get tape on tyhem, others maintain or keep getting better, and some just have the wheels come off early and can't recover.

 

1 hour ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

The only way you develop is by playing. Learning on the bench is a myth. And if Allen starts and plays bad 1st couple games and people worry about him losing his confidence then he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a franchise QB anyway.

 

 

Sorry this is not a completely true statement. Not all players learn the same way or at the same rate.... a major way to regress is to put a player into a position before he is fully ready. Some people do better by being eased into something, some people can jump in and get off to a quick start. You see it every day life, no two people are the same and different personalities, different cognitive functions require different approaches.

 

This one size fits all mentality from fans is not the mindset of successful coaches/teams

[Mango]

My girlfriend would be super upset if I slept on AJ McCarron. 

[Sky Diver]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

My girlfriend would be super upset if I slept on AJ McCarron. 

 

He probably wouldn't enjoy it much either.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

bit dramatic

  

2019? Not all that inaccurate or dramatic 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Sky Diver said:

And I said that Dareus was a dud is 2nd yr. I call it like I see it.

 

I believe you call it like you see it

 

Dareus went on to 2x probowl and 1x all-pro his 3rd and 4th years and was referred to by many knowledgeable as one of the best, if not the best, DT in the NFL esp. 2014

 

If you called him a "dud", you might want to revisit what you're seeing

 

 

1 hour ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

The only way you develop is by playing. Learning on the bench is a myth. And if Allen starts and plays bad 1st couple games and people worry about him losing his confidence then he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a franchise QB anyway.

 

How do you know that?

for all the pundits who say he needs time on the bench to develop - why do they think that and why do you believe they're all mistaken?

[Sky Diver]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I believe you call it like you see it

 

Dareus went on to 2x probowl and 1x all-pro his 3rd and 4th years and was referred to by many knowledgeable as one of the best, if not the best, DT in the NFL esp. 2014

 

If you called him a "dud", you might want to revisit what you're seeing

 

 

 

He had a few good years and now at 28 he appears to be washed up.

 

As good as may been 3 or 4 years ago, I wonder how great he could have been if had been more mature and was motivated.

[Mrbojanglezs]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I believe you call it like you see it

 

Dareus went on to 2x probowl and 1x all-pro his 3rd and 4th years and was referred to by many knowledgeable as one of the best, if not the best, DT in the NFL esp. 2014

 

If you called him a "dud", you might want to revisit what you're seeing

 

 

 

How do you know that?

for all the pundits who say he needs time on the bench to develop - why do they think that and why do you believe they're all mistaken?

 

Learning on the bench is good for becoming comfortable in the film room/prep/ mental side of the game. But no practice in life for any task is better than actually doing it.

 

Do you think a golfer is more prepared for a tournament by being someone's caddy or actually playing a practice round? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Sky Diver said:

He had a few good years and now at 28 he appears to be washed up.

As good as may been 3 or 4 years ago, I wonder how great he could have been if had been more mature and was motivated.

 

Agreed.

 

My point is, if you called him a "dud" in his second season, then he went on to all-pro and probowl and praise 3rd and 4th....you might have a hair-trigger on your "dud" caller.

 

[Sky Diver]

I don't recall exactly when I started criticizing him. It was when he showed up to camp grossly out of shape and overweight and when he was working on business deals (opening a bar/night club) while he left the team to mourn his brother. Likely after the second season.

 

I soured on the guy pretty quickly and my instincts were right. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Sky Diver

[vincec]

2 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

The only way you develop is by playing. Learning on the bench is a myth. And if Allen starts and plays bad 1st couple games and people worry about him losing his confidence then he doesn't have the mental toughness to be a franchise QB anyway.

You have to give him the tools to be successful. If you just throw him unprepared then you will lose games, which is not the goal. If you give him a chance to learn your offense, your personnel and see what NFL defenses are like for a few weeks then you have a much better chance of winning when he does play.

 

But I agree that it's hard to learn certain things from the bench. I'm one of the only people who advocate giving your developmental QB some snaps during the week. Put in a small package of plays for each week suited to his skill set and let him have a series or two per game, just like you do for every other position as well as in college. I'm honestly surprised that NFL teams don't do this.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

3 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Dalton took a sack on 4.9% of plays, which was good for #13th best in the league that year amongst starters.

Aj was 9.2% which would put him second to last (#35) for qualifying players.

Smaller sample size for AJ obviously, and he was obviously adjusting to starting, but I think they had a decent line, better than ours is projected this year.

 

 

I don't disagree with what you said.

I like mccarron better than Tyrod since I think a pocket passer is more consistent than a running QB.

I think our oline isn't great, and that AJ has a good chance to get annihilated behind our line, while Tyrod could at least run and escape better than AJ can, so he covered up some of the oline flaws.

Our receiving corps this year is also nowhere near the bengals 2015, so I'm not sure why pointing out what Tyrod did in 2015 has to do with what AJ is working with this year.

The O Line only needs to be  good up to the point where a running lane opens for the ball carrier or the QB releases the ball.     

 

Having to fight for 5 or more seconds because of a sandlot QB  is never a recipe for success. 

 

 

It's a bit more involved in that but the basic concept is correct 

 

[aristocrat]

Can he be case keenum like? I’d be very happy with those types of stats. And we might get a second at the end of the year

[3rdand12]

18 hours ago, DC Tom said:

I am perfectly happy, no matter how poorly he plays, starting McCarrot for at least two years and developing Allen on the bench.  

how about one year and i will send you case of Perrier ?
I think Allen Should sit as long as AJ is at least middlin'  for the Bills.
Have some real hope AJM can hold down the fort till next years FA stacked cash blitz o rama. When all the pieces finish the "Trust the Process " puzzle

[JaBu]

3 hours ago, Tyrod's friend said:

Which is greater ... 
Number of posters that know who Spiro T. Agnew is or 
Number of posters that can tell you who the last Bills punter was that completed a pass.

I'd say more know the punter, but I can only guess Brian Moorman. I do know Spiro T was Nixon's VP,  I was in high school back then.

 

Another punter question, who was the punter that also played linebacker?

 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, jabu said:

I'd say more know the punter, but I can only guess Brian Moorman. I do know Spiro T was Nixon's VP,  I was in high school back then.

 

Another punter question, who was the punter that also played linebacker?

 

 

it's definitely Moorman.  

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

You’re sleeping with AJ?  Does His wife know?

 

 

Look I know Dalton is a hero in Buffalo but to say he is a quintessential franchise QB is misleading.  The fact that AJ could not unseat him suggests that that McCarron really is  a possible strong backup QB.  There is nothing really in his history that says he is going to take that huge leap forward in his career.

 

So you're gonna take Marv Lewis' opinion on this? Marv Lewis? Really?

 

I'm gonna wait until he plays at least a few PS games before  I make any evaluation.

 

Brett FAvre  couldn't beat out Chris Chandler btw.

Edited May 17, 2018 by reddogblitz

[SouthNYfan]

2 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

The O Line only needs to be  good up to the point where a running lane opens for the ball carrier or the QB releases the ball.     

 

Having to fight for 5 or more seconds because of a sandlot QB  is never a recipe for success. 

 

 

It's a bit more involved in that but the basic concept is correct 

 

 

I agree with you on the sandlot thing.

They do need to do more than just "open running lanes"

They need to create a pocket for the QB on pass plays.

If they don't do that effectively then the passing game falls apart.

Cincinnati's oline in 2015 was average to slightly above average, ours this yeah should be worse, at least on paper.

Hopefully it's not.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

......kid was a steady Eddie, cerebral game manager at 'Bama.....nothing flashy but still netted two National Championships.....still wonder why OBD didn't take a 5th round flyer on the kid...oh wait.....Bo knows that OBD knows QB's.....