Scot McCloughan on Kirk Cousins: "I Don't See Special" - Headed for UFA

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is the point that I think people miss.  You're more or less nowhere without a top QB.   The one exception is when you can build a GREAT defense, but if you can do it it only works for a year or two.   Minnesota isn't going to dominate multiple years with that defense.  

 

Otherwise, only a good QB keeps your team competitive.   Someone is going to spend the money for Cousins, and that somebody will have a good QB.  

 

3 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

TT surely wasn’t the reason we made the playoffs.  

 

Agree with both posts.

 

Even when you get your "high priced" guy, keep drafting a QB in Round 3 every 2-3 years.

[Steve Billieve]

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

So you actually disagree that with Cousins the Bills beat Jacksonville? 

 

How could anyone possibly know?  It would have been a completely different game with a different game plan.  Do you actually think the betting odds would have been in the bills favor?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....I just don't see much in Cousins and am putting that aside for a different perspective....Bruce Allen is the Deadskins' Prez....as GM for the Bucks, he did a pretty darn good job building that club from 204-2008.....the son of former NFL great HC George Allen was hired by the Deadskins in 2009 (maybe Snyder likes history)......if in fact Cousins is/was the Deadskins guy, it's hard form me to fathom Allen couldn't come up with a long term deal in the last TWO years and now could potentially be faced with a 3rd tag at $34 mil.......something isn't passing the smell test here for a personnel guy like Allen....why?................

I'm in the MD/DC so there is a lot of coverage on the Cousin topic, and especially with respect to the contract issue. The consensus assessment is that it was Bruce Allen who allowed this Cousin situation to get out of control. There was a previous point where he could have had Cousins on a more reasonable contract. Instead, he squeezed Cousins instead of slightly increasing his offer. So what Cousins and his agent decided to do was box in the organization by going to a year to year contract because of the franchising system. So in hindsight Cousins got more money by not signing an extended contract and forced the team to franchise him in order to retain him. When the cost is tallied Cousins got more and the organization had to pay more to retain him. By not bending a little more to the player's side of the negotiations and securing him he gave the player leverage not only with the organization but also on the market. Make no mistake this was a Bruce Allen miscalculation. At least that is how most of the pundits in this area see it.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, papazoid said:

TD's thrown

 

KC - 27

TT- 13

 

that's more than slightly better

 

if cousins was on this years team....we beat JAX

 

Wrong- because they had to cut Shady, Hughes and Hyde to pay him what he thinks he’s worth.

 

 

NEXT! 

[Shaw66]

30 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

 

Agree with both posts.

 

Even when you get your "high priced" guy, keep drafting a QB in Round 3 every 2-3 years.

Yes.  

 

That's the thing about Cousins.   So you pay him $25 million a year with four years guaranteed.   Maybe $27 million.   He's your QB for four years.   If he turns into a superstar, great, re-up him to a really big deal.   If not, between now and then you've drafted a couple more guys, so over four years you have Peterman and a couple more who might succeed Cousins.  

 

I like Cousins better than the crap shoot that is trying to find a QB in the draft.  

[mjt328]

Kirk Cousins is a very good quarterback.

Not as good as the elite pack (Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc.) -- guys who can single-handed elevate their teams to a championship level.

I put him more on par with the next tier down (Matthews Stafford, Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan, etc.)

 

The question is... how good is that tier worth?  Notice that none of those guys have won a Super Bowl, and only one has actually made it.

Whoever signs Cousins is going to have a hefty chunk of their salary cap tied into exactly one player.

That means a relatively average supporting cast, alongside a pretty good QB.  I'm not sure that's enough to win a championship.

[GoBills808]

49 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I think a lot of people here are reading things into this that the guy didn't say.  

 

 

Read it.   He said he tried to make a deal with Cousins and couldn't.   He said that the cost of the franchise tag is now prohibitive.   What he seems to be saying is that the Redskins won't be able to make a deal with Cousins and they can't afford to franchise him.

 

He said Cousins isn't special.   That isn't news.   Everyone knows Cousins is not Peyton Manning.

 

So if you're objective is to get a Hall of Fame quarterback, Cousins isn't your guy.   But if your objective is more realistic, to get a good QB on your team, this guy sounds completely supportive of Cousins.   He's smart, he works hard, he plays well, he delivers.   The 

 

I think the objective is a top 10 QB.   The Bradys, Mannings, Roethlisbergers are leaving the league, and their successors are not obvious.  Other than Rodgers, who looks to be the new generation of Hall of Famers?   Not Cam, not yet.   Not Luck.   Not the guy in Philadelphia, not yet.   Not the guy in LA, either, certainly not yet.   Not Stafford.   Who are they?   

 

The answer is they're not there.   The game was extraordinarily pass-friendly when the retiring QBs were in their prime and late prime, and now that time is passing.   

 

So you need a good QB, a top 10 QB.   You need someone better than Taylor.   Where are you going to get one of those?   It's nearly total guess-work in the draft.   But there is one who is going to be a free agent - Cousins.   Not Bradford or Foles or any of the other guys who haven't had consistent success.   Cousins has had consistent success as a QB.   

 

I think that's what this guy is saying about Cousins.   

 

Someone is going to sign him.  That team will do more for their chances of winning in 2018 than any other team in the league.   He may not be special, but he'll make a bigger difference than anyone else who joins a team next season.  

 

The only question is whether you're a bidder.   He's going somewhere, and he's going to be a good QB somewhere.  

 

Imagine him on the 2017 Bills.   I'd say the Bills win at least two more games:  Bengals and Ravens.   And, for that matter, maybe one Patriots game.   How much would you pay for two more wins?

Yup. Probably Panthers game as well. And there's really no price too high for 2-3 more wins per season IMO...which I believe is what an obvious upgrade at QB would have netted the Bills this season.

[Ittakestime]

If you are going to spend big on a QB, this is the year.

 

You can structure the contract so the cap hit isn't huge this year.  Starting in 2019 we will have White, Dawkins, Jones, Milano on rookie deals for at least 2 years.  The players we draft this year, 4 in top 56 picks, will be on rookie deals for 3 years.  The 2019 rookies will be on rookie deals for 4 years.

 

Starting in 2019, there will be a ton of cash so you take the majority of the cap hit in those 2 years and then a little less the following 2 years.

[ColoradoBills]

Just now, mjt328 said:

Kirk Cousins is a very good quarterback.

Not as good as the elite pack (Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc.) -- guys who can single-handed elevate their teams to a championship level.

I put him more on par with the next tier down (Matthews Stafford, Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan, etc.)

 

The question is... how good is that tier worth?  Notice that none of those guys have won a Super Bowl, and only one has actually made it.

Whoever signs Cousins is going to have a hefty chunk of their salary cap tied into exactly one player.

That means a relatively average supporting cast, alongside a pretty good QB.  I'm not sure that's enough to win a championship.

 

I see your point but.................even the cost of a truly mediocre QB costs you big $'s.

 

       Spotrac QB Average Salary:

Glennon - 15 million

Taylor - 15.3

Dalton - 16 (contract is years old already)

Tannehill - 19.2

Heck Flacco is getting over 22 million.

 

To go from this group (on average) to the "high priced" guys is 1 player like Hughes or Clay.

To me, it's not really that much, but like I said, that's me.

 

 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I see your point but.................even the cost of a truly mediocre QB costs you big $'s.

 

       Spotrac QB Average Salary:

Glennon - 15 million

Taylor - 15.3

Dalton - 16 (contract is years old already)

Tannehill - 19.2

Heck Flacco is getting over 22 million.

 

To go from this group (on average) to the "high priced" guys is 1 player like Hughes or Clay.

To me, it's not really that much, but like I said, that's me.

 

 

I'd hate to lose Clay, he's still relatively young and I thought he was on the verge of becoming a premier TE his last year in MIA when we got him. In a real passing offense he could shine.

[ColoradoBills]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I'd hate to lose Clay, he's still relatively young and I thought he was on the verge of becoming a premier TE his last year in MIA when we got him. In a real passing offense he could shine.

 

I'm not saying Clay is the guy.

What I'm saying is the estimated 8-10 million more for a good QB vs. a 2nd to 3rd tier is 1 very good player.

Your "team" has to decide how to absorb that cost.

 

After all the years of bad Bills QB, I think it should definitely be considered.

[Magox]

Cousins and Smith would be big upgrades over what we've had.  Cousins is the more quality thrower and they would both lead us to more playoff appearances.

 

Cousins would break the bank while Smith would be more manageable but probably couldn't take us as deep in the playoffs as Cousins.

 

I wouldn't be upset with either one of the two.

[HT02]

I think that is an very honest and on-target assessment.   I think he is over-hyped and would be fine at the right price but not what he's going to make.

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

Cousins and Smith would be big upgrades over what we've had.  Cousins is the more quality thrower and they would both lead us to more playoff appearances.

 

Cousins would break the bank while Smith would be more manageable but probably couldn't take us as deep in the playoffs as Cousins.

 

I wouldn't be upset with either one of the two.

 

Why hasn't either done that with the teams they have been with? 

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, HT02 said:

I think that is an very honest and on-target assessment.   I think he is over-hyped and would be fine at the right price but not what he's going to make.

 

.....and that is the crux that a GM has to live by.

So does "gambling" on a bunch of picks trade.

Every Action................so the saying goes.

 

It for sure is going to be a crazy March/April in the league this year!

 

 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

Cousins reminds me alot of Tony Romo, always under the radar, many didn't think Romo was special either, choked in the big games but you have to look at the Redskins as a whole, if the defense matched the offensive production wouldn't they be a playoff and beyond team? Heck, even Aaron Rodgers has only won 1 SB despite being called an all world QB, he can't do it all by himself but that's what happens when you pay a QB that type of lute. Cousins has put up top 10 QB numbers the past 3 years, if that's not special then I don't know the meaning of that. There is only 1 Brady in this league so Cousins to me would be an excellent pickup, I don't see this franchise signing him, for the mere fact that we have a bunch of other vacancies and adding that salary cap would be crippling, that's why you draft a guy and have 4 years until he will be destroying the cap.

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

Cousins reminds me alot of Tony Romo, always under the radar, many didn't think Romo was special either, choked in the big games but you have to look at the Redskins as a whole, if the defense matched the offensive production wouldn't they be a playoff and beyond team? Heck, even Aaron Rodgers has only won 1 SB despite being called an all world QB, he can't do it all by himself but that's what happens when you pay a QB that type of lute. Cousins has put up top 10 QB numbers the past 3 years, if that's not special then I don't know the meaning of that. There is only 1 Brady in this league so Cousins to me would be an excellent pickup, I don't see this franchise signing him, for the mere fact that we have a bunch of other vacancies and adding that salary cap would be crippling, that's why you draft a guy and have 4 years until he will be destroying the cap.

 

Rogers, Brees and Eli Manning have what .............. 4 SB's among them.

Just think how many NFL seasons those 3 guys have logged to get that.

We have been too close to Brady.  It was dumb luck they got him.

 

The Brady/Peyton Manning thing is an exception, not the rule to get to the Super Bowl.

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Rogers, Brees and Eli Manning have what .............. 4 SB's among them.

Just think how many NFL seasons those 3 guys have logged to get that.

We have been too close to Brady.  It was dumb luck they got him.

 

The Brady/Peyton Manning thing is an exception, not the rule to get to the Super Bowl.

Amen

[White Linen]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

TT - $18,080,000.00

Clay - $9,000,000.00

 

Total - $27,080,000.00

Roll with a rookie TE.

 

The difference between a Mediocre QB and a Top Paid QB is one "Good" player.

It's no doubt why QB's get the money.

I'm not a huge Kirk Cousins fan but "cost" shouldn't be the issue.

 

You had better keep digging, you just creating another 9 mil in dead cap space.  More like no Hyde, no Clay, no Poyer and some more.  

 

Ok, no we don't win the game against Jax.  

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Rogers, Brees and Eli Manning have what .............. 4 SB's among them.

Just think how many NFL seasons those 3 guys have logged to get that.

We have been too close to Brady.  It was dumb luck they got him.

 

The Brady/Peyton Manning thing is an exception, not the rule to get to the Super Bowl.

 

Agreed, but I'd also say it takes top QB play to win a SB unless you have a record breaking defense (2000 Ravens, 2000 something Bucs, 2014 Broncos etc)

[Ga boy]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

We are a 12-4 team in 2017 with Cousins instead of Taylor.  How can anyone not like that?  And thats with having a bare cupboard most the year at WR due to trades and injuries.  

 

We won 9 with TT, safe to say we still win all those 9 games.  We definitely win the Car, Cincy and Charger game with Cousins as the QB.  Thats 12 wins right there, not to mention both NE games were winnable as well as the Jets game.  And we definitely win the Jax game with Cousins.  

 

We would be a 12 win team that would have been at least in the 2nd round of the playoffs with 2 first round picks, 2 second round picks, and extra picks in the other rounds of the draft too.  How can anyone be down on that scenario?

 

THREE OF THE FINAL 4 QB's IN THE PLAYOFFS ARE:  Borltes, Keenum, and Foles.  Cousins is substantially better than all 3.  For anyone to sit back and think Cousins isnt good enough just because he isnt a top 5 QB in the NFL is crazy.  You dont have to be "special"...those guys are rare...if we wait for a "special" QB we wont win for a long time.  The last "special" QB we had failed to deliver a SB despite playing on a roster full of talent and HOF players on both sides of the ball.  

 

Screw "Special"...give us good to very good coupled with all those draft picks and we are a VERY dangerous team.  

 

GIVE ME COUSINS!

Heck, if we would've had any of those 3 dudes, we'd still be playing.  I agree with your point that we can wait for special.  Cousins is better than most, and he'll be better still with Shady, and Benjamin, and Clay.  If both Shanahans thought he was good, that's good enough for this Ga boy.

[beerme1]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

In Dennisons offense with this offensive roster? Maybe. 

 

Cousins is better then Tyrod, but I find it funny how soon people have forgotten Tyrod was solid the past couple years before Dennison arrived

 

 

 

He's been consistent in being. The bottom or near bottom of qb rankings regardless of coordinator though.

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, Ga boy said:

Heck, if we would've had any of those 3 dudes, we'd still be playing.  I agree with your point that we can wait for special.  Cousins is better than most, and he'll be better still with Shady, and Benjamin, and Clay.  If both Shanahans thought he was good, that's good enough for this Ga boy.

You think that the Bills would still be playing if Blake Bortles or Nick Foles was our QB?!? The Bills were a minus 57 in point differential!! Do you think that Blake Bortles’ turnovers would have improved that?!? Of course not!!

 

The Bills MADE the playoffs because they were able to execute in close games and beat the teams that they should. Blake Bortles won because his team is loaded. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

Agreed, but I'd also say it takes top QB play to win a SB unless you have a record breaking defense (2000 Ravens, 2000 something Bucs, 2014 Broncos etc)

 

Maybe you misunderstand my post.

I agree with you.

 

What I'm saying is even with a top QB, Super Bowl wins are tough to come by.

Without a top QB it's even tougher.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You think that the Bills would still be playing if Blake Bortles or Nick Foles was our QB?!? The Bills were a minus 57 in point differential!! Do you think that Blake Bortles’ turnovers would have improved that?!? Of course not!!

 

The Bills MADE the playoffs because they were able to execute in close games and beat the teams that they should. Blake Bortles won because his team is loaded. 

 

 

You just argued against your point.  

 

That minus 57 May have been much lower wit a real passing QB.  

 

4 three point games by TT is a strong reason why that number was so high. 

 

TT happened to play 3 horrible games when the d went into a funk trying to adjust after Dareus was cut. 

 

 

[Ga boy]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You think that the Bills would still be playing if Blake Bortles or Nick Foles was our QB?!? The Bills were a minus 57 in point differential!! Do you think that Blake Bortles’ turnovers would have improved that?!? Of course not!!

 

The Bills MADE the playoffs because they were able to execute in close games and. Eat the teams that they should. Blake Bortles won because his team is loaded. 

 

 

Ok, you're partly right KJ.  I think those 3 guys would've scored 10+ against the Jags.  We would've lost the next one against Brady;  however, Cousins could beat those bean town bums.  We need someone who gives us a chance to do that, otherwise, we might as well as get EJ or Cordell or Fitz.

[ColoradoBills]

33 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

You had better keep digging, you just creating another 9 mil in dead cap space.  More like no Hyde, no Clay, no Poyer and some more.  

 

Ok, no we don't win the game against Jax.  

 

I'm not in the discussion about winning the Jax game.

 

What I was talking about is the cost of a high dollar QB and the affect on the rest of the team.

I hear what you say about Clay's dead money for the Bills today.

 

What I meant was IF the Bills go down the road of acquiring a high $ guy the final effect is costing them a guy like Clay.

The money could be made up all different ways.

I'm not sure if OBD should get Cousins (they should know more about it than me), I'm saying the difference is cash from a QB costing

that much and a guy like Tannehill isn't that much in my eyes.

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

You just argued against your point.  

 

That minus 57 May have been much lower wit a real passing QB.  

 

4 three point games by TT is a strong reason why that number was so high. 

 

TT happened to play 3 horrible games when the d went into a funk trying to adjust after Dareus was cut. 

 

 

No, the number would have been worse with that scrub Bortles. He turned it over 16 times. The Bills offense was awful. They didn’t however shoot themselves in the foot. They did enough to win 9 games because they won close games. You don’t win close games  when you make mistakes and turn the ball over. When the Bills lost they got pounded (for the most part). That’s how you have a winning record and a minus 57 point differential. 

6 minutes ago, Ga boy said:

Ok, you're partly right KJ.  I think those 3 guys would've scored 10+ against the Jags.  We would've lost the next one against Brady;  however, Cousins could beat those bean town bums.  We need someone who gives us a chance to do that, otherwise, we might as well as get EJ or Cordell or Fitz.

I don’t disagree. I like Cousins and think that he makes this team better. He also preserves the picks needed to fix a roster that isn’t very good. There is a lot to like about Cousins in a Bills uniform.

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Sound like anyone we know?

Kirk Cousins

 

2015:  379-543 (69.8%), 4166 Yds, 29TD's, 11 INT's, 101.6 PR

2016:  406-606 (67.0%), 4917 Yds, 25 TD's, 12 INT's, 97.2 PR

2017:  347-540 (64.3%), 4093 Yds, 27 TD's, 13 INT's  93.9 PR (with a bad o-line)

 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

The Redskins play the Eagles, Cowboys and Giants for six games a year.   They play in a much tougher division, and in all honesty a much better conference.

 

Cousins is worlds beyond Tyrod as a quarterback.  

 

Do you realize what you just said? Cousins didn't win because he played too many good teams. And you want this guy why?

[thenorthremembers]

4 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Do you realize what you just said? Cousins didn't win because he played too many good teams. And you want this guy why?

I dont want Cousins.  You asked why Tyrod had won more games.  Simpliy put the difference in their win percentages is neglible and Cousin played better teams.  Frankly I think Cousins is above average for the NFL as currently constructed so no way Id pay him top five money.  On the Tyrod point, we currently have a bottom five player at that position at we need to upgrade.  Doesnt change the fact Cousins is better than what we have.

Edited January 20, 2018 by thenorthremembers

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

TT - $18,080,000.00

Clay - $9,000,000.00

 

Total - $27,080,000.00

Roll with a rookie TE.

 

The difference between a Mediocre QB and a Top Paid QB is one "Good" player.

It's no doubt why QB's get the money.

I'm not a huge Kirk Cousins fan but "cost" shouldn't be the issue.

 

You forgot the 8mil if we cut Hotrod.

[Chicken Boo]

That is a level-headed, spot on take of Kirk Cousins.

 

There aren't 5 QBs that can win in this league without the right talent around them.

[Cripple Creek]

2 hours ago, Steve Billieve said:

 

How could anyone possibly know?  It would have been a completely different game with a different game plan.  Do you actually think the betting odds would have been in the bills favor?

I didn't ask about odds.  But, if you want me to answer whether I would have been more confident betting on the Bills with Cousins my answer is hell yes.  The Bills are in the window, it's cracked open and they need to force their way inside.  A decent QB is required and this off season offers them a rare opportunity to pick up a decent (starter) vet QB. Whether it's Cousins, Smith one of the Minnesota QBs...they have to take a shot. (the faster the better)

Edited January 20, 2018 by Cripple Creek

[Ga boy]

This is my new revelation:  who's going to beat Brady?  Not Smith.  Not Bridgewater.  Not Bradford.  If anybody can, Cousins can.

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

Cousins reminds me alot of Tony Romo, always under the radar, many didn't think Romo was special either, choked in the big games but you have to look at the Redskins as a whole, if the defense matched the offensive production wouldn't they be a playoff and beyond team?

 

 Couldn't the same be said of the 2016 Bills with the 7th in the league scoring offense?

[PromoTheRobot]

29 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I dont want Cousins.  You asked why Tyrod had won more games.  Simpliy put the difference in their win percentages is neglible and Cousin played better teams.  Frankly I think Cousins is above average for the NFL as currently constructed so no way Id pay him top five money.  On the Tyrod point, we currently have a bottom five player at that position at we need to upgrade.  Doesnt change the fact Cousins is better than what we have.

 

Okay, but again, you're excusing Cousins' poor record because he plays a tough schedule with a less than talented team. Well what are the Bills outside our secondary? 

 

Isn't the whole point of getting the magical franchise QB is finding someone who elevates his team? 

[PIZ]

A good quarterback?  We haven't seen good QB play in forever.

[Green Lightning]

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

In Dennisons offense with this offensive roster? Maybe. 

 

Cousins is better then Tyrod, but I find it funny how soon people have forgotten Tyrod was solid the past couple years before Dennison arrived and forced a system on a QB who clearly didn't fit it. Along with a coach/GM who stripped the offense of most of its playmakers and having the worst WR corps in the league.

 

Solid in - I'll never come from behind, I will never win a game by my arm alone, I will never throw before receiver has a two-to-three yard separation, yeah that kind of solid.

[reddogblitz]

24 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Okay, but again, you're excusing Cousins' poor record because he plays a tough schedule with a less than talented team. Well what are the Bills outside our secondary? 

 

Isn't the whole point of getting the magical franchise QB is finding someone who elevates his team? 

 

Has anyone added up wins and losses to determine this or are we just going with it because it seems like it might he true? How many times has his team played against the Cheaters?