Why doesn't the NFL change Defensive PI to 15 yards?

[Magox]

Yeah, the commentator in the game got me to thinking about this and it is something that I had previously thought about before.

 

I do agree that in many cases the rewarded penalty seems to be harsh.  On the other hand what is to stop defenders from flagrantly penalizing a player whenever they are at risk of getting beat.  I think the end result would be less long touchdown passes due to this rule change.

 

If you did do it, you would have to bump up the penalty yardage to either 20 or 25 yards or half the distance to the goal line or automatic to the 3 yard line if it's in the endzone.

 

Also, they would need to have a different category of penalty such as they do in the NBA.  Flagrant foul.  If the defender does it and it is clear that they purposely did it then the defender gets a Flagrant foul which would incur some additional penalty.   Also, if players get a certain number of flagrant fouls in a certain time period they get booted from the game or the following game.   I'm just thinking aloud but something along these lines.

 

Or, they can just leave it as is.  

[CuddyDark]

Because chicks dig the long ball.

[cba fan]

11 hours ago, bills6969 said:

They should institute 2 levels of PI, both with different penalties.  A PI 1 is just your basic strong contact, no intention of taking the WR out - 15 yards penalty.  A PI 2 is blatant and intentional,  purposely trying to take out the WR so he cant make the catch - spot foul 

Great idea on paper, however, it would never work in practice.

Defenders would use this 15 yard penalty to prevent big plays and to kill clock late in game just like NBA players use "a foul to give" late in games to kill clock. Great finishes would go way way down. In basketball this use of infractions is valid capital to play as team avoided fouls and stockpiled them similar to but not same as NFL saving timeouts or challenge flags in football. Should be allowed to use it.

 

EX: final drive for team in closing seconds of game down by 6 and is at 25 yd line with no time outs trying for a late game victory. Get ready for repeated consecutive defensive PI as defense tries to run clock out.

 

1st play PI down to your 40 yd line

2nd to opponents 45 yd line

3rd to 30 yd line

4th to 15

5th to 7.5

6th to 3.75  all this would run off a minute or more of clock.

 

team would have no chance to stage a comeback. 

 

Players would be coached and practice how to do intentional PI and make it look like basic strong defensive contact.

 

Seahawks Jaquars and Pats would have a small coaching staff and support staff assembled just for that purpose. They would probably bring in Hollywood videographers to record it all and show the finer points of how it would all look live from officials point of view on the field. Job creation at its best.

Edited January 16, 2018 by cba fan
fix

[corta765]

The reason for it is there are times a CB is absolutely beat and will interfere so the WR doesn't get a TD. They would rather give the yards then TD. That happened in Bills Jags Myles Jack interfered with Shady who would've had a clear TD on a route out of the backfield up the sideline. Perhaps maybe give the ref more leeway to adjust the penalty between spot foul and 15 yards but I don't think the rule is bad.

1 hour ago, transient said:

Maybe the league should better define what’s good coverage and what’s PI and enforce it accordingly... you know, the same way they’ve so successfully pinned down the definition of a catch...

 

After the mess the league has made with what a catch is the last thing I want now is more rules and decisions by the league office

[peterpan]

12 hours ago, NoSaint said:

What stops the saints safety from just tackling the receiver before the ball gets there yesterday (besides his inability to tackle) if it’s a 15 yarder instead of spot?

I understand the argument but, that is the college rule and this stuff doesn't happen in college. 

[Dr. K]

12 hours ago, bills6969 said:

They should institute 2 levels of PI, both with different penalties.  A PI 1 is just your basic strong contact, no intention of taking the WR out - 15 yards penalty.  A PI 2 is blatant and intentional,  purposely trying to take out the WR so he cant make the catch - spot foul 

The last thing we need to add to an officiating system so shaky it is on the verge of collapse is another variety of judgment call. 

[row_33]

1 hour ago, bobobonators said:

Too many defensive penalties give the Offense automaic 1st downs

 

a weak D is horribly exposed on non-passing downs when suddenly it's a passing play

 

there's not much they can do but interfere or hope the throw is off.

 

 

The current PI rules aren't much fun when your current QB is afraid to throw more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage.

 

[Dafan]

The simplest thing to do imo is make it a reviewable penalty.  The CFL does this.  If a PI penalty is called you can review it.

[row_33]

17 minutes ago, Dafan said:

The simplest thing to do imo is make it a reviewable penalty.  The CFL does this.  If a PI penalty is called you can review it.

 

Why should the NFL be held hostage to a barely semi-pro CFL's loser way of doing things?

 

 

 

My personal best answer for the NFL rules is...

 

I'd do a lot of road trips of NCAA on Saturday and then NFL on Sunday in the 90s and 00s.

 

Most college QBs ran a quasi-option and barely any of them could honestly call and deliver on a 50 yard strike.

 

Then you'd see warmups in the NFL and Favre throwing the ball 60 yards pinpoint to the EZ with ease and realize that a 50 yard pass was par for the course for most NFL arms.

 

The sound of violent collisions on the field was another matter of increase ten-fold on Sundays.

 

 

[DRutka]

11 hours ago, Schmuggs said:

At least make it reviewable. These refs are seeing money signs. 

This. Still remember the Jacksonville game a few years ago. The ref (based on the angle he had) called PI against us and the Jags won. Replay (from a different angle the ref had) showed we were 5 yards off the reciever. Would have made playoffs that year if we would have won that game (which we would have without that penalty). 

[row_33]

17 minutes ago, DRutka said:

This. Still remember the Jacksonville game a few years ago. The ref (based on the angle he had) called PI against us and the Jags won. Replay (from a different angle the ref had) showed we were 5 yards off the reciever. Would have made playoffs that year if we would have won that game (which we would have without that penalty). 

 

Let it go....

 

Now we have a future so bright and happy with the Bills.

 

[DRutka]

4 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

Let it go....

 

Now we have a future so bright and happy with the Bills.

 

Have let it go. Just saying this is the reason it should be reviewable IN THE FUTURE. SMH

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, DRutka said:

Have let it go. Just saying this is the reason it should be reviewable IN THE FUTURE. SMH

 

PI calls of consequence....

 

Benny Barnes on Lynn Swann.

 

that's about all I can bother with since 1973....

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

13 hours ago, NoSaint said:

What stops the saints safety from just tackling the receiver before the ball gets there yesterday (besides his inability to tackle) if it’s a 15 yarder instead of spot?

You simply make a rule that it becomes a spot foul inside of two minutes. Or inside two minutes make it a 15 yard penalty and put the original time back on the clock. In that situation the Vikings would have gained a free 15 yards and still had 10 seconds left. 

 

It is not unprecedented to have different rules for inside of two minutes of a game or half.

 

I agree for the most part that spot fouls on defensive PI's are overkill most of the time. Especially when a quarter of the calls seem questionable at best.

[Antonio]

13 hours ago, bills6969 said:

They should institute 2 levels of PI, both with different penalties.  A PI 1 is just your basic strong contact, no intention of taking the WR out - 15 yards penalty.  A PI 2 is blatant and intentional,  purposely trying to take out the WR so he cant make the catch - spot foul 

 

Like Facemask used to be... 5 yards or 15 yards depending on intention.

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

12 hours ago, Rubes said:

 

Nothing, of course. But on one hand, the game can't end on a defensive penalty, so the offense gets another shot. And keeps getting shots until the defense stops doing it.

Yep. And we saw that this year withe The Chiefs vs. Raiders Thursday night game. I believe the Chiefs committed two consecutive defensive PI's on un-timed downs. Raiders finally scored on the third one.

[Rubes]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

You simply make a rule that it becomes a spot foul inside of two minutes. Or inside two minutes make it a 15 yard penalty and put the original time back on the clock. In that situation the Vikings would have gained a free 15 yards and still had 10 seconds left. 

 

It is not unprecedented to have different rules for inside of two minutes of a game or half.

 

I agree for the most part that spot fouls on defensive PI's are overkill most of the time. Especially when a quarter of the calls seem questionable at best.

 

Agreed.

 

Like others have said, I don't see grabbing receivers as a problem in college ball. I don't buy the argument that it's a lot tougher to do in college because receivers are faster, or whatever. If it made sense to grab or interfere with receivers to save the long ball, you'd better believe college coaches would be doing it.

 

Someone mentioned the Myles Jack play on Shady in the Wild Card game. Sure, but how many times do you actually see that happening in an NFL game? How different would that play have been if we got 15 yards instead of a spot foul? My guess is that the grab occurred right around 15 yards downfield.

 

I still like the idea of making it a 15-yard penalty and automatic first down, and when it's inside 2:00 of each half, it becomes an untimed down and the time is put back on the clock. That will certainly dissuade defenses from just grabbing guys at the end of games.

 

[row_33]

When you are blindly biased on behalf of the weaker team it looks like the refs are always stomping you.

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

I don't like that PI is a subjective thing.   A little pushing and shoving is okay but a lot gets you a flag.   The ref's judgment makes all the difference. 

 

They need it make it more black and white.   Any non-incidental contact before the ball on either player should be a penalty.

[row_33]

So how many penalties called by officials are cut and dry and not subject to judgment?

 

Holding?  Offside?  Neutral zone infraction?  Roughing the punter?  Roughing the passer?

 

 

When you are cheering angrily for the obviously weaker team and ready at a picosecond's notice to blame anything the better team does on the refs, then go berzerk in front of your TV like a little child over every successful play by the clearly superior team, it's time to get a real life...

 

Everyone around you would be so happy for you.

[Stank_Nasty]

am I the only one that thinks a minor 5 yd facemask should be brought back?

[Starr Almighty]

Remember when the league had the 5 yard facemask and the 15 yard facemask and the refs couldn't handle it? That's why this would never work.

[ndirish1978]

Because it would destroy the long ball. Teams would coach DBs to tackle on long passes before the ball gets there if they are beat.  

[seregil42]

Only change I would make is to make PI challengeable.  Otherwise, the rule is fine as it is.

[Mr. WEO]

Answer:  Players, coaches and owners don't seem to want to change it. 

[Cynical]

54 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I don't like that PI is a subjective thing.   A little pushing and shoving is okay but a lot gets you a flag.   The ref's judgment makes all the difference. 

 

They need it make it more black and white.   Any non-incidental contact before the ball on either player should be a penalty.

 

How does that make it less subjective? It's still up to the human official to determine who made the contact.

[Rubes]

55 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

Because it would destroy the long ball. Teams would coach DBs to tackle on long passes before the ball gets there if they are beat.  

 

Plenty of arguments against this throughout the thread.

[TigerJ]

There are times when PI as a spot foul seems to be incredible overkill, but there are other times where a DB, who is beaten on a sure touchdown pass, could just go ahead and tackle the receiver with the ball in the air.  From a defensive standpoint, that is a bargain price to have to pay on a 50 yard pass play.

[Spiderweb]

16 hours ago, bills6969 said:

They should institute 2 levels of PI, both with different penalties.  A PI 1 is just your basic strong contact, no intention of taking the WR out - 15 yards penalty.  A PI 2 is blatant and intentional,  purposely trying to take out the WR so he cant make the catch - spot foul 

Great... Requiring more complex discretion by officials.   They can't handle what they have now!! 

[Punching Bag]

16 hours ago, bills6969 said:

They should institute 2 levels of PI, both with different penalties.  A PI 1 is just your basic strong contact, no intention of taking the WR out - 15 yards penalty.  A PI 2 is blatant and intentional,  purposely trying to take out the WR so he cant make the catch - spot foul 

 

Spot foul + 15 yards.

[MJS]

10 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

This seems to have never been an issue in college, why do you all think it would be dramatically different in the pros?

 

WR's run wide open in college. Defenders are better, faster, smarter, etc in the NFL.

1 hour ago, Rubes said:

 

Plenty of arguments against this throughout the thread.

 

And they are wrong. PI spot foul is fine the way it is.

[ndirish1978]

1 hour ago, Rubes said:

 

Plenty of arguments against this throughout the thread.

 

And I disagree with them, which is why I posted 

[Rubes]

11 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

And I disagree with them, which is why I posted 

 

Great, so your response to arguments against your position is just to state your position again? Got it.

 

[ndirish1978]

7 minutes ago, Rubes said:

 

Great, so your response to arguments against your position is just to state your position again? Got it.

 

 

And your purpose for posting is what exactly? To tell me my fun is wrong? It's a message board, I don't have to write a 40 paragraph response when a sentence will suffice. If you actually wanted someone to explain their position further, perhaps "other people have said no, while you say yes" isn't a clear and concise way to simply say "why did you say that?"  

Edited January 16, 2018 by ndirish1978

[Reed83HOF]

17 hours ago, NoSaint said:

What stops the saints safety from just tackling the receiver before the ball gets there yesterday (besides his inability to tackle) if it’s a 15 yarder instead of spot?

 

I thought the game can't end on a defensive penalty? They would get 15 yards plus a free play...

[ndirish1978]

 

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I thought the game can't end on a defensive penalty? They would get 15 yards plus a free play...

 

If a 15 yard penalty negatively affects the game even once it's not worth it. The league is all about creating highlight moments and promoting scoring, making the rules easier for the defense isn't going to help either of those aims. Would you rather see a crazy play like that game-winner or a series of 15 yard penalties until the ball gets overthrown?

[Augie]

I DO see all the problems with it, but why does it seem to be fine in college? 

 

(Sorry if I missed this answer already.) 

7 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

 

If a 15 yard penalty negatively affects the game even once it's not worth it. The league is all about creating highlight moments and promoting scoring, making the rules easier for the defense isn't going to help either of those aims. Would you rather see a crazy play like that game-winner or a series of 15 yard penalties until the ball gets overthrown?

 

I understand why the league likes it....and THAT is it. No call can affect a game more than those long PI calls. 

[ndirish1978]

14 minutes ago, Augie said:

I DO see all the problems with it, but why does it seem to be fine in college? 

 

(Sorry if I missed this answer already.) 

 

I understand why the league likes it....and THAT is it. No call can affect a game more than those long PI calls. 

 

For several reasons:

 

1- CBs have to show they can cover in order to get looked at by the pros. A ton of PI calls against you, even if it's by design, doesn't help you get looked at for playing at the next level. If you're getting those PI calls it would tend to indicate you're too slow to actually cover down the field. College programs' recruiting is based on getting players to the next level, so if you're the first team or one of only a few teams doing this, it puts your players at a disadvantage and would affect recruiting. Look at how maligned players are who play in spread systems. The NFL does not like projecting more than it has to. If you have a kid from school A who uses the rule to their advantage and looks good but has a ton of PI calls, you'd have to project that they can cover downfield, because they've been coaching to tackle on long pass plays.  

 

2 - There ARE plenty of plays in a college season where a badly beat player just grabs a handful of jersey. It doesn't happen every game, but it happens often enough. Would YOU like to be the guy admitting you got scorched and had to grab a jersey to save a play? It may be a smart move, but it highlights you negatively in regards to skill. 

 

3 - Another point not related to the college game itself is we see a lot of rules in the NFL that seem to be harsher than their NCAA counterparts. A large part of this is the "prestige" of making it to the next level. Why don't we just have guys get one foot inbounds for a catch in the NFL? Because they want us to believe that the people at the next level are skilled enough that they can make things harder on them. This is a rule designed to show how much better DBs are in the NFL. 

[PromoTheRobot]

18 hours ago, Rubes said:

I know this has certainly come up in the past, but I'm old as !@#$ and I can't remember any of the arguments for or against it. But watching these last few weeks of games got me thinking about this again, as several critical defensive PI calls have come up that dramatically swung the tide in favor of the offense.

 

I hate that defensive PI is a spot foul—obviously when it happens when the Bills are on defense, but also even when the Bills get a call like that on offense, because it just seems like such a cheap way to get a ton of yards. Especially when it happens in the end zone and the ball is placed at the 1. I really despise that. And I don't like that this has actually become part of offensive strategy, to throw it up and look for that possibility.

 

Any time there is a defensive penalty like unnecessary roughness that comes with 15 yards and an automatic first down, it's pretty great if you're on offense and hurts bad if you're on defense, no matter where the ball is or the situation.

 

Enough with the spot foul on defensive PI. Make it 15 yards and an automatic first down. That's painful enough for a defense. Hell, offensive PI is only 10 yards.

 

 

What if they create two levels of PI? Incidental and Flagrant?  I'm certain NFL officials will have no trouble differentiating between the two.

Edited January 16, 2018 by PromoTheRobot

[BullBuchanan]

18 hours ago, bills6969 said:

They should institute 2 levels of PI, both with different penalties.  A PI 1 is just your basic strong contact, no intention of taking the WR out - 15 yards penalty.  A PI 2 is blatant and intentional,  purposely trying to take out the WR so he cant make the catch - spot foul 

 

This is basically what defensive holding/ PI is already.