Alright, who wants a dome?

[4_kidd_4]

37 minutes ago, Luka said:

If the money is ever put forth to build a new stadium, it will be a dome. No way that kind of investment is made in this region just to have it be used 8 times a year. A dome can host many different events and that's what will get a new stadium built.

 

Look around the league and see how many non-football events are hosted in NFL stadiums. 

 

Ford Field (covered, similar market) has a bowl game in Dec. and a Taylor Swift concert in August.

 

MetLife (open, largest market) has “Jets Cooking School” in Feb, a two night Taylot Swift stay, and Kenny Chesney and Ed Sheeran concerts in the summer. Oh, and a monster truck rally. A grand total of 6 non-NFL events. 

 

The “could host so many other events!” take is the weakest one out there. We barely get a handful of 18k capacity events at the arena as it is.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

7 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

The only way it works if it is like a dome in Atlanta which is kept open when it snows.

 

A friend of mine who is a retired architect showed drawings of a design he made for a stadium.  He has been paid as consultant on several stadiums but more a QA then as a designer.  It basically is a dome not entirely enclosed and the sides of stadium are slanted so snow piles up along side of stadium rather than layering on dome.  The curve helps protect the stands and less snow will fall on seats.  I think it looks like an orange being opened up.  

This is what I am talking about.  Best of both worlds... But your average idiot would go berserk.  "I want it closed when it snows!"

[Luka]

5 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Look around the league and see how many non-football events are hosted in NFL stadiums. 

 

Ford Field (covered, similar market) has a bowl game in Dec. and a Taylor Swift concert in August.

 

MetLife (open, largest market) has “Jets Cooking School” in Feb, a two night Taylot Swift stay, and Kenny Chesney and Ed Sheeran concerts in the summer. Oh, and a monster truck rally. A grand total of 6 non-NFL events. 

 

The “could host so many other events!” take is the weakest one out there. We barely get a handful of 18k capacity events at the arena as it is.

 

 

It's not a "weak take," it's reality. Hence the reason we still don't have a new stadium. 6 non-NFL events that I'm positive made money. Money they wouldn't have otherwise had.

[Punching Bag]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

This is what I am talking about.  Best of both worlds... But your average idiot would go berserk.  "I want it closed when it snows!"

 

No surprise this coming from him since he went to Rockpile games.

 

I asked him if it could be made into a dome and he said yes but design would need to be open in winter for it could not hold the snow weight.  Basically the dome with be a roof like a curtain which would slide across on pulleys which would protect against rain, reasonable speed wind, reasonable size hail and other conditions.  Not as fast as Atlanta and certainly not as pretty.  Roof would be slanted to help direct rain to sides and holes to allow water to flow out.

[BUFFALOKIE]

22 hours ago, Georgia Bill said:

I think there might be some practical concerns with a domed stadium in Buffalo.  Nov 2014, seven foot of snow fell in Orchard Park.  Can domes safely handle that weight?  And if they can, can they be built to also be retractable?  I doubt it.  Maybe some mechanical engineers can weigh in but I suspect the choice is a super heavy duty, non-retractable dome, or open air.  I hate the idea of losing the outdoors feel at games, and say no to a dome.

Mechanical engineer says Yes, we can build anything. Especially to handle a little ol snow. 

 

Fan says heck no! LET snow let it snow let it snow!

[4_kidd_4]

1 minute ago, Luka said:

 

It's not a "weak take," it's reality. Hence the reason we still don't have a new stadium. 6 non-NFL events that I'm positive made money. Money they wouldn't have otherwise had.

 

Got any math on what kinda dent a handful of events every year puts in a billion dollar price tag?

 

I’m no economist, but the professional ones all agree, it’s not much and almost all cities will never see a ROI on any pro stadium, no matter what.

 

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

 

“NFL stadiums do not generate significant local economic growth, and the incremental tax revenue is not sufficient to cover any significant financial contribution by the city,” said Noll, a senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. He has written articles and books and given talks on the public financing of sports stadiums.

 

Go ahead and Google for yourself. There’s plenty more stark evidence out there.

 

[DriveFor1Outta5]

15 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Look around the league and see how many non-football events are hosted in NFL stadiums. 

 

Ford Field (covered, similar market) has a bowl game in Dec. and a Taylor Swift concert in August.

 

MetLife (open, largest market) has “Jets Cooking School” in Feb, a two night Taylot Swift stay, and Kenny Chesney and Ed Sheeran concerts in the summer. Oh, and a monster truck rally. A grand total of 6 non-NFL events. 

 

The “could host so many other events!” take is the weakest one out there. We barely get a handful of 18k capacity events at the arena as it is.

 

This^ Many of the biggest concert tours don’t stop in Buffalo either. New Era has hosted some huge ones over the past few years, but Buffalo isn’t an automatic tour stop such as NYC. Plus, there is no reason New Era or any open air stadium can’t host concerts. As mentioned, New Era has hosted several big ones. Most big concert tours take place  during the summer, thus negating the need for a dome. The only thing that a dome would bring is the NCAA tourney every few years. The Key Bank Center already does so. Also, the future of stadium acts in music doesn’t look so bright imo. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[BUFFALOKIE]

29 minutes ago, Georgia Bill said:

I agree, I don't think they engineer any domes for 7 ft of snow, which happened in Orchard Park just a few years ago.  

They didn't, but they should have. Designing is not the hard part. Making it affordable is.

Edited December 12, 2017 by BUFFALOKIE

[4_kidd_4]

3 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

This^ Many of the biggest concert tours don’t stop in Buffalo either. New Era has hosted some huge ones over the past few years, but Buffalo isn’t an automatic tour stop such as NYC. Plus, there is no reason New Era or any open air stadium can’t host concerts. As mentioned, New Era has hosted several big ones. Most big concert tours take place  during the summer, thus negating the need for a dome. The only thing that a dome would bring is the NCAA tourney every few years. The Key Bank Center already does so. 

 

This is solid as well. Excellent point on summer tours, and how desirable the Buffalo market isn’t for 60k+ people events.

 

Its just a fact, NFL stadiums will never pay for themselves and will more likely end up costing the community more money than it takes in.

 

I think TP knows this market, and knows the real math involved. I could definitely foresee us being in OP for a long time, like it or not.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Carrier Done in Cuse... They average what BFLo area averages, if not more snow.  But BFLo does hold the record between the two @ 199"

 

Yet, OP is in Southtowns, they  gotta average way more than BFLo proper's 95"/year.  Probably, 150" which is more than Syracuse.

 

No other NFL location is sniffing at those micro-climate #s!  NOT EVEN CLOSE!

[Mat68]

4 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Got any math on what kinda dent a handful of events every year puts in a billion dollar price tag?

 

I’m no economist, but the professional ones all agree, it’s not much and almost all cities will never see a ROI on any pro stadium, no matter what.

 

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

 

“NFL stadiums do not generate significant local economic growth, and the incremental tax revenue is not sufficient to cover any significant financial contribution by the city,” said Noll, a senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. He has written articles and books and given talks on the public financing of sports stadiums.

 

Go ahead and Google for yourself. There’s plenty more stark evidence out there.

 

I dont believe anyone is debating the economical impact a NFL stadium has.  Its a fact that Buffalo would have the ability to host events with a Domed stadium that currently is not available with an open stadium, and probably more importantly a stadium that is a few decades behind in areas.  For the Buffalo Bills to stay in the area a new Stadium is needed to be built or the process approved with in 5 years.  With the game yesterday it would make the most sense as a business to make the last quarter of their homes games more enjoyable so they will have higher attendance totals.  Improving the product on the field sure helps yes, but even if Buffalo was undefeated that game would be hard to sell out.

[4_kidd_4]

7 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

I dont believe anyone is debating the economical impact a NFL stadium has.  Its a fact that Buffalo would have the ability to host events with a Domed stadium that currently is not available with an open stadium, and probably more importantly a stadium that is a few decades behind in areas.  For the Buffalo Bills to stay in the area a new Stadium is needed to be built or the process approved with in 5 years.  With the game yesterday it would make the most sense as a business to make the last quarter of their homes games more enjoyable so they will have higher attendance totals.  Improving the product on the field sure helps yes, but even if Buffalo was undefeated that game would be hard to sell out.

 

Fair enough, but the argument was presented that other events will help bring in revenue. True, but I was simply pointing out that it won’t make a dent in the cost to the community.

 

If anything, they would need to add on a “convention center”(which downtown Buffalo needs more than a stadium) to a new stadium in order

to realistically get multi-use out of it, not necessarily for the revenue but for the appearance of usage.

[Returntoglory]

4 hours ago, Georgia Bill said:

I agree, I don't think they engineer any domes for 7 ft of snow, which happened in Orchard Park just a few years ago.  

Dome stadiums can be engineered for any weather condition. 

[Capco]

16 hours ago, T-Bomb said:

I don't go to the games, so I don't care much about a dome.  However, domes do seem pretty feminine.

 

I'm pretty sure it's men who like dome, and not women 

[cba fan]

15 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Fair enough, but the argument was presented that other events will help bring in revenue. True, but I was simply pointing out that it won’t make a dent in the cost to the community.

 

If anything, they would need to add on a “convention center”(which downtown Buffalo needs more than a stadium) to a new stadium in order

to realistically get multi-use out of it, not necessarily for the revenue but for the appearance of usage.

More events will bring in more revenue and help justify the annual losses that civic center public event centers lose every year every place they are built except a couple rare instances like the Allstate Center in Chicago that is the busiest arena in the world and yet still barley breaks even or loses some every year.

 

Public event centres never make money directly. The ancillary financial area economic benefits are very hard to extrapolate and estimate. Many studies based on fuzzy math as local money spent on these events displaces local money that would have been spent other places locally. If it is an event that hordes of out of towners come in to spend mega money than that is different. Like a Star Trek convention or Super Bowl or Political convention or other things that bring in a lot of outsiders would be preferred. Concerts and truck shows RV shows etc etc are more for locals so do not generate new income.

 

Do you think the Sabres arena should be torn down because it loses money every year??

Edited December 12, 2017 by cba fan
add

[May Day 10]

I prefer outside.  I like attending games outside... and also the aesthetics on TV.  The variability, etc.  I also understand the points that pro-dome people have.  That is a valid opinion as well.  There is no right/wrong or absolutes.  It is based primarily on personal opinion.    What matters is what Pegula and the financials determine is the best course.  

 

 

I think the cheapest/easiest course of action is in place.  Parking, routes out of the stadium/area really arent that bad, doesnt take up potentially valuable downtown space, etc.  However, I think Pegula is likely looking at any way feasible for downtown to link his sports and entertainment empire.  If I had to bet, I would say most likely some sort of Ford Field style dome to the South-East area of the arena/cobblestone/downtown.

 

Style of the stadium, my preference, maybe a happy medium.  Out of the snow belt would help... also, some sort of roof structure would be nice.  Whether its dome or outdoor, I really hope they concentrate on the fan experience.  Amplify sound.  Great sight lines, etc.  I think the thing should be geared 95% toward football watching (as that is what we do here).  An outdoor stadium, enclosed like 50% by roof, maybe something similar in ways to Centurylink Field in Seattle would be wonderful.  Maybe it would be possible to make an outdoor stadium convert to an amphitheater for the offseason that would be able to host many concerts over the summer.  Run Darien lake out of business and get bodies downtown.

Edited December 12, 2017 by May Day 10

[4_kidd_4]

43 minutes ago, cba fan said:

Do you think the Sabres arena should be torn down because it loses money every year??

 

Oh totally, that’s clearly my entire argument. 

 

In fact let me grab my sledgehammer, I’ll meet you down there.

[ProcessTheTrust]

Retractable dome that you can crack open a little to let some snow in but shut when you can't even see the field. Compromise?

[CodeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, ProcessTheTrust said:

Retractable dome that you can crack open a little to let some snow in but shut when you can't even see the field. Compromise?

I wonder if there is a rule about that.  Could the Bills for example open the roof in a December snowstorm against the fish or another warm weather or indoor team, but close it for a team that plays well in it?

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

I wonder if there is a rule about that.  Could the Bills for example open the roof in a December snowstorm against the fish or another warm weather or indoor team, but close it for a team that plays well in it?

 

I'm pretty sure the NFL collectively has a rule that says all domes must be closed if the temperature is below a certain mark. 

[WhoTom]

17 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

I wonder if there is a rule about that.  Could the Bills for example open the roof in a December snowstorm against the fish or another warm weather or indoor team, but close it for a team that plays well in it?

 

I don't know if this is true for all retractable roofs (and I just did a Google search and couldn't find anything), but Toronto's roof can't be opened and closed during the winter months. The cold temperatures mess with the mechanical systems, so once it's closed for the winter, it stays closed until late spring.

 

The laws of physics supersede NFL rules.

[jrober38]

15 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

I don't know if this is true for all retractable roofs (and I just did a Google search and couldn't find anything), but Toronto's roof can't be opened and closed during the winter months. The cold temperatures mess with the mechanical systems, so once it's closed for the winter, it stays closed until late spring.

 

The laws of physics supersede NFL rules.

 

Rogers Centre has no drainage system.

 

If it rains, or it snows, there's nowhere for the water to go.

[CodeMonkey]

29 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

I don't know if this is true for all retractable roofs (and I just did a Google search and couldn't find anything), but Toronto's roof can't be opened and closed during the winter months. The cold temperatures mess with the mechanical systems, so once it's closed for the winter, it stays closed until late spring.

 

The laws of physics supersede NFL rules.

Do Roger and Jerrah know about this?

 

[CountDorkula]

22 hours ago, Heitz said:

Question:  who here has seen a game in a dome recently?

 

Just curious if anyone has actually seen an NFL game in one of the modern indoor stadiums (and, no, Toronto does NOT count - ever)?  Just lots of "the atmosphere is stale" comments, but folks in Indy and Minny seem to like their new homes.

 

Like I said, was in Minny's stadium (though not for a football game) and it was beautiful, definitely made me change my opinion of what an indoor stadium could be.

 

Just curious if everyone is going off of actual game day experiences, or off of gut...

I saw Bills/FAlcons.

 

That dome was awesome, loud and did not have that "dead atmosphere"

[Mat68]

On 12/11/2017 at 7:34 PM, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Fair enough, but the argument was presented that other events will help bring in revenue. True, but I was simply pointing out that it won’t make a dent in the cost to the community.

 

If anything, they would need to add on a “convention center”(which downtown Buffalo needs more than a stadium) to a new stadium in order

to realistically get multi-use out of it, not necessarily for the revenue but for the appearance of usage.

True.  What is not looked at is what would be the economical impact of the region if the Bills leave.  Sure the State and county are not getting their money back for paying for a new stadium.  They will take a loss if the franchise leave.  Would you rather take a loss and have the Bills or take a loss when the Bills leave.  Keeping the Bills and having a better game day experience inside the stadium for the fans would be a net gain for anyone that likes the Bills or wants the city to thrive.  

[BillsfaninChicago]

I have been to Indianapolis’ dome twice to watch the Bills play the Colts to be honest it was very quiet relative to the other stadiums I have been too. May just be a more subdued fan bas but my buddy made the comment that he felt like he was in church.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 12/12/2017 at 12:20 PM, WhoTom said:

 

I don't know if this is true for all retractable roofs (and I just did a Google search and couldn't find anything), but Toronto's roof can't be opened and closed during the winter months. The cold temperatures mess with the mechanical systems, so once it's closed for the winter, it stays closed until late spring.

 

The laws of physics supersede NFL rules.

 

....changed rule for 2015, but change became permanent.............

 

PHOENIX – For one year (2015), the NFL has changed its policy on opening and closing a retractable roof during games. The rule will have no effect on the Texans because they would never open the NRG Stadium roof during the game

 

For one year only, amend the NFL’s Retractable Roof Policy to read (new language underlined): Until 90 minutes prior to kickoff, the home club will have the authority to determine if the retractable roof (“roof”) and/or the retractable wall (“wall”) should be open or closed for each preseason and regular season game. The home club may choose to open the roof and/or wall for some games and not for others.

 

“The decision to open or close the wall is independent of the election the club makes for opening or closing its stadium’s retractable roof. In the event a game is started with the roof and/or wall in the open position and it is closed pursuant to the procedures set forth below, the roof and/or wall must thereafter remain in the closed position for the duration of the game.”

Edited December 13, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[TheFunPolice]

Retractable roof would be a waste because in any type of weather it would be closed.

 

Football should be played outside, in the elements. Domes are dumb, and they are ridiculously expensive. There is no need for a massive airplane hangar in Buffalo that will sit empty and look like the games are being played in a basement during the season. Detroit's stadium is awful. Every game looks like it is being played at midnight in a garage.

 

Minnesota has a cool stadium with a wall that opens and a transparent roof. That's neat, but still I think outdoor football is part of Bills tradition and identity. Imagine Green Bay with a dome. Yuck!

 

Just because you build a dome doesn't mean you can magically charge double the price for a ticket here. The NFL is already having major attendance issues with stadiums 1/3 empty. There just isn't a return on the dome investment. The Super Bowl is not coming here if you build a dome.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...pretty funny yet pathetic stuff......plenty of posts about our "clueless owner".....hell there was even a thread asking whether "Pegula should cash in"....and now in a momentary lapse or perhaps a bi-polar episode, the guy should pony up $750-1 billion for a retractable joint.......got it.........

[BuffaloHokie13]

Need a dome to even have a chance at a Super Bowl, which would be fantastic for the city. Retractable would be my choice so they could choose to have a weather game if they want.

 

More important than the dome though, get a natural grass field and put heated coils underneath.

[TheFunPolice]

When has a team ever opened a retractable roof in any type of weather?

 

It seems like it would cause all types of problems. Moisture trapped in an enclosed space is never good.

[cba fan]

15 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

Retractable roof would be a waste because in any type of weather it would be closed.

 

Football should be played outside, in the elements. Domes are dumb, and they are ridiculously expensive. There is no need for a massive airplane hangar in Buffalo that will sit empty and look like the games are being played in a basement during the season. Detroit's stadium is awful. Every game looks like it is being played at midnight in a garage.

 

Minnesota has a cool stadium with a wall that opens and a transparent roof. That's neat, but still I think outdoor football is part of Bills tradition and identity. Imagine Green Bay with a dome. Yuck!

 

Just because you build a dome doesn't mean you can magically charge double the price for a ticket here. The NFL is already having major attendance issues with stadiums 1/3 empty. There just isn't a return on the dome investment. The Super Bowl is not coming here if you build a dome.

Detroit dome is one of the best stadiums in the NFL. Great atmosphere. Cool incorporation of old brick building as suites/clubs on top floors and concession area on bottom on one side. Nothing like getting in line with outside temp at "zero" and walking in to a game decided by skill, not weather chance luck.

 

How soon we forget how 50k Buffalo fans brought the noise and the hammer during the blizzard game moved to Detroit.

Edited December 13, 2017 by cba fan

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, TheFunPolice said:

When has a team ever opened a retractable roof in any type of weather?

 

It seems like it would cause all types of problems. Moisture trapped in an enclosed space is never good.

As far as I know most retractables need to have a decision made prior to game time and then they can't change it during the game. Surely it's rained a few of the times they decided to keep it open...

[Punching Bag]

On 12/11/2017 at 7:11 PM, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Got any math on what kinda dent a handful of events every year puts in a billion dollar price tag?

 

I’m no economist, but the professional ones all agree, it’s not much and almost all cities will never see a ROI on any pro stadium, no matter what.

 

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

 

“NFL stadiums do not generate significant local economic growth, and the incremental tax revenue is not sufficient to cover any significant financial contribution by the city,” said Noll, a senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. He has written articles and books and given talks on the public financing of sports stadiums.

 

Go ahead and Google for yourself. There’s plenty more stark evidence out there.

 

 

 

But there is enough financial money to fund such studies by opponents of stadiums.

On 12/12/2017 at 10:59 AM, May Day 10 said:

I think the cheapest/easiest course of action is in place.  Parking, routes out of the stadium/area really arent that bad, doesnt take up potentially valuable downtown space, etc.  However, I think Pegula is likely looking at any way feasible for downtown to link his sports and entertainment empire.  If I had to bet, I would say most likely some sort of Ford Field style dome to the South-East area of the arena/cobblestone/downtown.

 

The cheapest/easiest course of action is to create a light rail link to Orchard Park with express lanes for buses to and from train.  The train can go to area which Pegula has significant interest in hotels / parking / bars.  There used to be AMTRAK deals for games and shuttles.

[Augie]

In order of preference:

1) Open 

2) Retractable 

3) Sterile Dome

 

Even Atlnata’s cool new retractable dome, while very cool, just lacks something for a football game. You know if the weather is even iffy it will be closed. I get why they do it, they can have a lot of major events including football, Final Fours, etc. If that’s what the Pegulas are going for, and if they’re footing a heavy chunk of the price tag, and if it helps WNY rebound in a significant way....I could be persuaded it’s for the better.  But that’s a lot of if’s. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Augie

[BearNorth]

Grand Island has lotsa open land, the bridge tolls on game days could be dedicated to stadium bonds, easy access to Canadian Fans, and not nearly the snow belt that the OP is. 

 

[Punching Bag]

17 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Need a dome to even have a chance at a Super Bowl, which would be fantastic for the city. Retractable would be my choice so they could choose to have a weather game if they want.

 

More important than the dome though, get a natural grass field and put heated coils underneath.

 

There is NO chance of a Superbowl in Buffalo; is a PSL salesman illusion.

 

In order for a dome to support the grass in Arizona Cardinals stadium they needed to have fields which could swing out.  This is Arizona which gets a lot of sun.  What natural grass stadium in northern client are you advocating as an example?  They did a study when I was at UB in late 70's / early 80's and they said there was not enough sunlight for such a plan to work but maybe grass strains have gotten better.

[RiotAct]

4 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Grand Island has lotsa open land, the bridge tolls on game days could be dedicated to stadium bonds, easy access to Canadian Fans, and not nearly the snow belt that the OP is. 

 

oh Gawd... the GI tolls are congested enough on average weekends... I can’t imagine the shitshow the southbound south bridge would be come 4:45 on gamedays.

[BuffaloHokie13]

26 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

There is NO chance of a Superbowl in Buffalo; is a PSL salesman illusion.

 

In order for a dome to support the grass in Arizona Cardinals stadium they needed to have fields which could swing out.  This is Arizona which gets a lot of sun.  What natural grass stadium in northern client are you advocating as an example?  They did a study when I was at UB in late 70's / early 80's and they said there was not enough sunlight for such a plan to work but maybe grass strains have gotten better.

When I said 'more important' what I meant was I'd rather have grass than a dome

[The Frankish Reich]

On 12/11/2017 at 5:11 PM, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

Got any math on what kinda dent a handful of events every year puts in a billion dollar price tag?

 

I’m no economist, but the professional ones all agree, it’s not much and almost all cities will never see a ROI on any pro stadium, no matter what.

 

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

 

“NFL stadiums do not generate significant local economic growth, and the incremental tax revenue is not sufficient to cover any significant financial contribution by the city,” said Noll, a senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. He has written articles and books and given talks on the public financing of sports stadiums.

 

Go ahead and Google for yourself. There’s plenty more stark evidence out there.

 

All absolutely correct.  8 regular season games, 2 not so well attended preseason games, and a home playoff game roughly every 34 years this pace.  There's just no way these $800 million stadiums are economically viable, particularly for a city like Buffalo.  Having said that, I fully expect the politicians and their developer friends to approve some kind of monstrosity to be built at largely taxpayer expense. Cuomo Domo.