Jump to content

Feel Like We Are Going Back To Dark Days


Recommended Posts

 

Draft picks are usually a sign that you suck. Look at Cleveland and SF this year. They had a ton of picks.

 

Agree. I think the last time a team built a powerhouse team from having a bunch of high picks all in one draft was when San Diego got a bunch for trading Eli Manning to the Giants for Phillip Rivers (2004/2005). Before that, it was probably Dallas back in the late 1980s from trading Herschel Walker to the Vikings. Crappy teams make crappy personnel decisions, and consequently, their drafts suck even when they have numerous high picks. The Bills have proven that to be true throughout their history, most recently in 2009 when they had 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in 2009 IIRC -- and blew the best one on one of their worst busts: Aaron Maybin.

 

I see no reason to think that the Bills won't screw the pooch once again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 138
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

 

Agree. I think the last time a team built a powerhouse team from having a bunch of high picks all in one draft was when San Diego got a bunch for trading Eli Manning to the Giants for Phillip Rivers (2004/2005). Before that, it was probably Dallas back in the late 1980s from trading Herschel Walker to the Vikings. Crappy teams make crappy personnel decisions, and consequently, their drafts suck even when they have numerous high picks. The Bills have proven that to be true throughout their history, most recently in 2009 when they had 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in 2009 IIRC -- and blew the best one on one of their worst busts: Aaron Maybin.

 

I see no reason to think that the Bills won't screw the pooch once again.

That's the spirit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Mister 57 posts, how long have you been alive on earth? 6 years? Is that how far back you go as a Bills fan?

 

Let me count the ways:

 

6HRwGSh.jpg

 

Did you enjoy those 3 win and 4 win seasons? When 6 wins was an improvement? When we were picking the likes of Aaron Maybin in 1st rounds?

This is an excellent post. Whaley was something we didn't have in the 2000's

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick

Drew Brees was a 2nd round pick

Aaron Rodgers was drafted 24th overall

Joe Flacco was 18th overall

Big Ben was 11th overall

Kirk Cousins was a 4th round pick

Derek Carr was a 2nd round pick

 

You can get your franchise QB from almost any draft position. It's all about coaching a QB up, along with having talent. Is Dennison a good enough coach to coach up whatever QB the Bills bring in. That is the biggest question.

 

You forgot Russell Wilson who went in the 3rd round in 2012. The Bills passed on him to take trade up to take TJ Graham who couldn't stay healthy and couldn't catch the ball when he was healthy!

 

 

7+ QBs get drafted every year and 5-6 of them flame out of the league while 0-2 of them range from too serviceable to get rid of (Tannehill, Cutler, Dalton, etc) Getting that "QB for a decade plus" is winning the lottery. The Bolts still get flack from drafting Leaf, but if he didn't go 2, he would have gone 3rd, 4th, etc.

 

It's not a science.

 

Doing all of this to most likely get the next Ryan Tannehill is far from worth it. This is the worst time I've seen in the drought. There's no light at the end of the tunnel and a coaching staff is telling us that they can sell the farm next year and get a QB that will turn around this franchise on what will end up being a team otherwise void of talent: Gonna say my goodbyes to Kyle Williams and McCoy right now as they limp through this 20 game pre-season.

 

I will add specifics to your post: there wasn't even 1 Tannehill quality QB in the 2002, 2007, 2010, 2013 drafts. It's also likely that Bortles, from 2014, won't turn out to be much, either, as he regressed last season. Moreover, even when there is a diamond in the draft, a team still has to find him. In 1999, the #1 pick, Tim Couch, went to Cleveland, Philadelphia took Donovan McNabb at #2, and Cinci took Akili Smith at #3. Minnesota took Daunte Culpepper at #11. McNabb was a bonafide franchise QB and Culpepper was decent for several years, Couch and Smith sucked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trade thoughts :

  • Yes - a fire sale. The Bills traded their best receiver & cornerback for players clearly less skilled. The team dumped assets for just two draft choices, a second & third.
  • Who is the Bills No. 1 receiver now? Mathews, Boldin, and Jones are all projected No.2s and seen primarily as slot receivers. Is there a deep threat among the bunch?
  • Watkins was "injury prone", true. As a matter of history or luck that's an apt description. I've always been wary of transferring that to the future or "fate" when talking about a player. It smacks a bit of magical thinking. We were repeatedly told a second operation would fix his foot issue. Why shouldn't that be true?
  • A common talking point is the trade changes the Bills from a 8&8 team to 6&10, or from 9&7 to 7&9. It's also possible it changes them from 10&6 to 8&8. Would anyone care?
  • All parties have said the Right Thing in sports-speak, which is expected and even admirable. The only one who pushed it was Beane. He denied dumping the team's assets in trading away their best receiver by pointing to Boldin, a 37 year old player clearly at the end of his career - a magnificent career, but still.....
  • Taylor will probably have a good year - perhaps a very good year - but taking away his best target and primary deep threat will clearly have an effect. Look at Dalton last year, before and after the injury to Green. One wonders whether this effect is a feature or a bug. Is there anything Taylor could do this season where the Bills wouldn't package draft picks for a QB? A good year by TT would complicated a decision already on rails.
  • Taylor was the consummate professional talking about the deal and will be so on the field. After all, he'll be playing for his next team and contract. But is it that simple? Say TT has a very good year. Say the Bills move up for a QB. Does Taylor then get cut? He'll still be relatively cheap, given the payout required to void his contract. Beane and McDermott may be reluctant to throw their new QB right into the fray, particularly given their jobs are at stake over his performance. They may chose to bring Taylor back in 2018 as a dead-man-walking. I wonder how his professionalism would hold up to that?
Edited by grb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So...don't even attempt at drafting your guy at qb because it's scary?

 

Not at all what I'm saying. My point is that the Bills are obviously putting themselves in a position to go up to #1 overall, and gutting the current team to do it, when the expected value of that pick is extremely low. The far better solution is to take many more, but less risky shots until you get someone that works. As an example, if the Bills knew they wanted a QB next year, which they obviously did, why not just draft Watson where they stood instead of trading back to draft a guy next year that may not be any better?

 

If they didn't like what they saw form Watson year one, do it again next year. Everyone thought the redskins were silly for taking RGIII & Cousins, and it may have been the most savvy move they've ever made, in hindsight.

 

You forgot Russell Wilson who went in the 3rd round in 2012. The Bills passed on him to take trade up to take TJ Graham who couldn't stay healthy and couldn't catch the ball when he was healthy!

 

 

 

I will add specifics to your post: there wasn't even 1 Tannehill quality QB in the 2002, 2007, 2010, 2013 drafts. It's also likely that Bortles, from 2014, won't turn out to be much, either, as he regressed last season. Moreover, even when there is a diamond in the draft, a team still has to find him. In 1999, the #1 pick, Tim Couch, went to Cleveland, Philadelphia took Donovan McNabb at #2, and Cinci took Akili Smith at #3. Minnesota took Daunte Culpepper at #11. McNabb was a bonafide franchise QB and Culpepper was decent for several years, Couch and Smith sucked.

Thanks for getting where I was going.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not at all what I'm saying. My point is that the Bills are obviously putting themselves in a position to go up to #1 overall, and gutting the current team to do it, when the expected value of that pick is extremely low. The far better solution is to take many more, but less risky shots until you get someone that works. As an example, if the Bills knew they wanted a QB next year, which they obviously did, why not just draft Watson where they stood instead of trading back to draft a guy next year that may not be any better?

If they didn't like what they saw form Watson year one, do it again next year. Everyone thought the redskins were silly for taking RGIII & Cousins, and it may have been the most savvy move they've ever made, in hindsight.

 

Thanks for getting where I was going.

I'm not sure why everyone is convinced that the bills are shooting for the 1 overall, or that you can't get a good qb outside of that spot. They have potential to trade up if needed, and if wildly lucky, can snag their guy at their position, and use the other picks to bolster the team and prepare for aging players. If you're concerned about the bills not picking the right guy, I completely get that. They have to take a shot. They're set up better this year than any other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why everyone is convinced that the bills are shooting for the 1 overall, or that you can't get a good qb outside of that spot. They have potential to trade up if needed, and if wildly lucky, can snag their guy at their position, and use the other picks to bolster the team and prepare for aging players. If you're concerned about the bills not picking the right guy, I completely get that. They have to take a shot. They're set up better this year than any other.

I'm concerned about them not picking the right guy after moving all in to do it. Coaches around the league do this constantly. They have the opinion that somehow their guys will be better than everyone else's guy and it almost never works out. In fact I really can't recall a coach & GM coming in and gutting a talented roster and coming out better on the other side. The NFL has so much parity today that it's unnecessarily. The Bills were literally 5 plays away from being a 12-4 team last year. They completely controlled their own destiny and it wasn't for a lack of talent that they didn't get the job done.

 

Have Beane & McDermott with their 0 combined years of experience really convinced this fanbase that in order to get 5 more touchdowns per year we need to set a fire to everything we have and start all over again? I call bull ****. The simple addition of Anquan Boldin and a healthy watkins should have been all we needed to get over the hump.

 

I dont want to wait another 4 years to find out if we have JP Losman and I sure as hell don't want to draft Andy Dalton or Ryan Tannehill and decide we have to hitch our Wagon to them for the next 10 years because it's as good as we can reasonably hope for. I have 0 expectations that we'll end up with a Brady, Manning, Rothlisberger, Brees etc, because you might as well play the powerball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad they dumped Whaley and glad the new regime isn't wasting any time cleaning up all his many mistakes. Preston Brown, Seantrel Henderson, John Miller, Nick O'Leary, and Dez Lewis... the Fab 5. The only players left on the team from his 1st 3 years as GM, what a friggin' disaster. Not too impressed with his 2016 class either, but hoping for some surprises.

 

Culture change is GREAT and desperately needed! Onward and upward!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm concerned about them not picking the right guy after moving all in to do it. Coaches around the league do this constantly. They have the opinion that somehow their guys will be better than everyone else's guy and it almost never works out. In fact I really can't recall a coach & GM coming in and gutting a talented roster and coming out better on the other side. The NFL has so much parity today that it's unnecessarily. The Bills were literally 5 plays away from being a 12-4 team last year. They completely controlled their own destiny and it wasn't for a lack of talent that they didn't get the job done.

Have Beane & McDermott with their 0 combined years of experience really convinced this fanbase that in order to get 5 more touchdowns per year we need to set a fire to everything we have and start all over again? I call bull ****. The simple addition of Anquan Boldin and a healthy watkins should have been all we needed to get over the hump.

I dont want to wait another 4 years to find out if we have JP Losman and I sure as hell don't want to draft Andy Dalton or Ryan Tannehill and decide we have to hitch our Wagon to them for the next 10 years because it's as good as we can reasonably hope for. I have 0 expectations that we'll end up with a Brady, Manning, Rothlisberger, Brees etc, because you might as well play the powerball.

 

You think the bills were 5 plays away from being 12-4 last year? Come on Bull. If you don't think this regime can pick the right guy, I can understand that, but this team has to finally take its shot. On top of that, they don't need the first over all pick to do so. Just because you and another poster list qbs how haven't worked out, it doesn't mean buffalo will have the same fate. The bills have to try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You think the bills were 5 plays away from being 12-4 last year? Come on Bull. If you don't think this regime can pick the right guy, I can understand that, but this team has to finally take its shot. On top of that, they don't need the first over all pick to do so. Just because you and another poster list qbs how haven't worked out, it doesn't mean buffalo will have the same fate. The bills have to try.

 

I don't *think* it, it's what happened. We lost 5 games by a touchdown or less and in each of those we had a shot to win at the very end of the game and couldn't get it done. Guys didn't get open, there were drops, picks, etc. It's even worse than that because IIRC if we beat miami and the jets the last two weeks of the season we were in.

 

If you tell me that the team wasn't capable of winning 2-3 more games out of 5 how good of a Coach & GM can you really be?

Dark days? Huh?

 

Feels like the HC & GM are on the same page for once

 

Maybe because they were both from the same team? We've tried this stuff before. We've been the Pittsburgh Bills, The New Jersey Bills, and now we're the Carolina Bills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I don't *think* it, it's what happened. We lost 5 games by a touchdown or less and in each of those we had a shot to win at the very end of the game and couldn't get it done. Guys didn't get open, there were drops, picks, etc. It's even worse than that because IIRC if we beat miami and the jets the last two weeks of the season we were in.

 

If you tell me that the team wasn't capable of winning 2-3 more games out of 5 how good of a Coach & GM can you really be?

 

Maybe because they were both from the same team? We've tried this stuff before. We've been the Pittsburgh Bills, The New Jersey Bills, and now we're the Carolina Bills.

this is what below average teams do. to say this team was anything close to one that was 12-4 is just delusional. could they have improved by a few games...maybe, but it's not a shoe in. at the end of it, how much worse is this year than last. it's not like watkins put up huge numbers that will be missed, (i get that he's the far better talent) and i just don't know if gains will be any different than darby. production wise it could be a lateral move.

Edited by teef
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are getting their ducks in a row to make a run at a top QB in next year's draft.

 

Without one we are doomed to mediocrity.

 

The plan is worth a shot, and it is too early to judge.

Exactly. One of these times its gotta work right?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Andrew Luck was the anointed greatest QB in the history of history and the Colts are going to finish last in their division this year.....the worst division in football. Win with what you have. Don't throw good players away.

so true. it's easy to gamble when it's not your money. Throw away a really good hand hoping to get something better. It never works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Andrew Luck was the anointed greatest QB in the history of history and the Colts are going to finish last in their division this year.....the worst division in football. Win with what you have. Don't throw good players away.

...Luck is a PRIME example of having lousy, meddling ownership, a joke of a GM over his head who blamed the Luck extension as to why he can't sign quality players, followed by Coach Chuckie, marginal at best....Andrew is not the problem........try Moe, Larry & Curly at the helm.....sorry, Grigson has moved on to building the Browns....

Edited by OldTimeAFLGuy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't need a tear down and we are tearing down. We don't need a complete rebuild and we are doing exactly that. We don't need to kick the fans in the nuts and we kicking hard.

 

We are all doomed. It's all gone to hell. We're all going to die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Andrew Luck was the anointed greatest QB in the history of history and the Colts are going to finish last in their division this year.....the worst division in football. Win with what you have. Don't throw good players away.

Seems easy enough.....just win with what you have. There are 31 teams trying to figure out why this strategy isn't working. What's plan B?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are getting their ducks in a row to make a run at a top QB in next year's draft.

 

Without one we are doomed to mediocrity.

 

The plan is worth a shot, and it is too early to judge.

 

They need to ditch Taylor then. Why start him this year and win say three games you would have lost with Peterman or Yates at QB instead. Insure that you get a top five pick. May even need to ensure you get a top 3 pick with the number of teams looking to tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy cow, what was it about the last 15 years that gets you to think "it's all good!"?

 

Fans who wear their emotions on their sleeves are ridiculous, and I've learned over the past 48 hours that the Bills fanbase is loaded with them.

 

Give the new regime a chance to clean house and build their team. It may fail and a new regime will come in in four years and do the same thing, or four years from now we could be looking deep into the playoffs. Who knows, but you have to give them a chance to do work.

Edited by CajunBillsBacker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if the bills can get a top qb in the draft then yes, it's very worth it. it would be nice not to have to worry about the qb position for a decade plus.

haven't the pats typically had high number of picks each year?

And this year they are going the other route. Bringing in Gilmore, Gilislee, and Cooks. They haven't exactly been good a drafting players the last decade. They just have Brady and Belicheck and really that's all that matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is so ironic that Whaley was given the can however it seems like the league just loves grabbing his talent. for Christ sake the Rams said just basically I take the Bills starting receivers plus our nickle corner. The PAts basically said ill take your starting CB slot receiver and backup RB and TE (Chandler before they cut after one season)

 

If Beane is to be believed teams are begging us to trade and not the other way around. The number one reason the Bills have not made the playoffs is coaching and a little bad luck. Before Nix and Whaley got here we were handing extentions to BUMS and couldnt get coaches to interview with us.

 

I believe that even if we do make the playoffs soon Whaley will be proven right by the talent he drafted. Maybe if he would have been allowed to pick his own coach then they would have had the chemistry that Beane and McDermott has which i think was put to the test that Sammy trade which i dont think McDermott was with 100%.

 

I hope Beane does not turn into a Beane counter no pun attendent.

Edited by Protocal69
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is so ironic that Whaley was given the can however it seems like the league just loves grabbing his talent. for Christ sake the Rams said just basically I take the Bills starting receivers plus our nickle corner. The PAts basically said ill take your starting CB slot receiver and backup RB and TE (Chandler before they cut after one season)

 

If Beane is to be believed teams are begging us to trade and not the other way around. The number one reason the Bills have not made the playoffs is coaching and a little bad luck. Before Nix and Whaley got here we were handing extentions to BUMS and couldnt get coaches to interview with us.

 

I believe that even if we do make the playoffs soon Whaley will be proven right by the talent he drafted. Maybe if he would have been allowed to pick his own coach then they would have had the chemistry that Beane and McDermott has which i think was put to the test that Sammy trade which i dont think McDermott was with 100%.

 

I hope Beane does not turn into a Beane counter no pun attendent.

Whaley was a good talent evaluator. He wasn't (imo) a good general manager. He's best suited as a director of player personnel or pro scouting. If building a madden team was the goal that is one thing...building a team that can win consistently in the NFL is another. He understood talent just fine... how to build a winning team was the puzzle he didn't figure out. Changing coaches didn't help. But I'm still not sure what his vision was. It always seemed like patchwork. Edited by YoloinOhio
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is so ironic that Whaley was given the can however it seems like the league just loves grabbing his talent. for Christ sake the Rams said just basically I take the Bills starting receivers plus our nickle corner. The PAts basically said ill take your starting CB slot receiver and backup RB and TE (Chandler before they cut after one season)

 

If Beane is to be believed teams are begging us to trade and not the other way around. The number one reason the Bills have not made the playoffs is coaching and a little bad luck. Before Nix and Whaley got here we were handing extentions to BUMS and couldnt get coaches to interview with us.

 

I believe that even if we do make the playoffs soon Whaley will be proven right by the talent he drafted. Maybe if he would have been allowed to pick his own coach then they would have had the chemistry that Beane and McDermott has which i think was put to the test that Sammy trade which i dont think McDermott was with 100%.

 

I hope Beane does not turn into a Beane counter no pun attendent.

What have the Rams done to show that they are a competent franchise and that taking the 2 Bills WRs is the answer to getting better at the position?

 

And so far the only move that has paid off for another team was the Pats getting Hogan (who the fans here couldn't get rid of fast enough because of how bad they thought he sucked) who like everyone, looked good catching passes from Brady. No one knows if Gilmore will be an improvement on defence for the Pats, and is Gillislee will be a huge improvement as a RB on their offence

 

Hows leodis doing? Hows Kiko doing? Hows Mario Williams doing? Hows Williams (the RB) doing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone else feel like we are backwards? This team has done such a 360 from where it was from 2000-2010, and I feel like we are entering right back to that era.

 

Pegula was such a nice breathe of fresh air, and IMO, so was Doug Whaley. He got creative with salary cap, did things we never used to do, took chances in trades, etc.

 

I know this probably won't be popular, but I miss the Whaley days. When Whaley was GM, I finally felt like a real NFL team, trying to actually get into the playoffs. We were aggressive and the talent on this roster was the highest it has been in over a decade.

 

I just didn't see the need for the rebuild. Pegula should have made sure this wasn't going to happen. Looking back, I would have rather hired Lynn and kept Whaley. At least they would want to keep great talent on this team, not get rid of it.

 

This new regime just rubs me the wrong way. They think that future picks actual mean anything. Give me talent over maybe talent with a draft pick you don't even know the position of. They think they won't have to ever pay out big contracts and we will just operate on guys who "want to be here." They are always looking for low ball offers and think they are smart enough to win with lesser talent. They are going to be in for a rude awakening. You need talent to win. They are setting themselves back 2 years and most regimes only get 3 years before they have to prove themselves.

 

I don't really get where this is coming from.

 

They won't ever have to pay out big contracts? How can you conclude that?

 

Doug Whaley was the GM when Gilmore left in free agency, and when Gillislee left on that offer sheet.

Before you blame McDermott, Whaley had 2 years to get Gilmore signed and he didn't. There were reports before McDermott was even hired that Whaley wasn't willing to give Gilmore more than $11.5M. Supposedly that was their best/highest offer.

 

Yeah, they traded Sammy. But that was 1 player, and we have no idea what the exact reasons for the trade were. Even if it was contract related in some part, I am sure there were other reasons behind it too. To conclude that they think they won't ever have to pay out big contracts seems like a,pretty big leap in logic IMO.

 

Always looking for low ball offers? Where does that come from?

 

Jeremy Maclin chose Baltimore over Buffalo and it had nothing to do with money. There was a report that the Bills actually tried to up their offer to above what Baltimore offered just to try one last time to get Maclin to sign here. He chose Baltimore because of (his words) Joe Flacco, because they won a Super Bowl recently and he felt they were close, and because his wife is from Baltimore and has family there.

 

And Boldin signed here. Beane said it was never about the money. They knew where the money needed to be and had agreed on it. It was Boldin deciding if this was a good fit for him and his family.

 

So I don't get the "always looking for low ball offers" comment. There doesn't really seem to be much to back that up.

They did say that they aren't going to overpay and hand out massive contracts in free agency though, which is a good strategy that many successful GMs employ and different from what you are saying.

 

As for draft picks meaning anything, they absolutely do. Almost all of the best NFL teams have all been built through the draft. That is how you build a true contender. You can't build a team through free agency in the cap era.

 

 

Whaley had been here since 2010 and was GM since 2013. He had plenty of time to put a winner on the field, but was only able to eek out a winning season 1 time in his entire tenure here, and if Brady + the starters play that last Pats game of 2014 the Bills likely don't have a winning season that year either.

He was an above average pro personnel guy and average (at best) to below average at everything else (IMO anyway). The Bills had the lowest number of drafted players on their roster in the entire NFL during Whaley's time here.

http://buffalonews.com/2016/12/18/roster-data-shows-bills-gm-doug-whaley-not-building-roster-creating-nfls-biggest-hole/

 

And they actually retained the least number of their players during his time here too (from 2010) -

http://buffalonews.com/2017/04/28/bills-retained-nfls-fewest-draft-picks-since-2010/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...