Rodak- Whaley:Bills "middle class" could get "squeezed out

[YoloinOhio]

I thought this ESPN article was thought-provoking concerning the roster and salary cap.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/18451/doug-whaley-bills-middle-class-could-get-squeezed-out

 

"By replacing part of the "middle class" of their roster with cheaper draft selections, the Bills could knock down their cap number and maintain their financial health over the coming seasons. Who is part of the Bills' middle class? I would point to three players in particular: running back Fred Jackson, linebacker Manny Lawson and cornerback Leodis McKelvin."

 

I know some of you boycott Rodak and espn so I pointed it out in the topic and in the thread. No need to click if you don't want to.

Edited April 23, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[TPS]

I certainly found that analogy interesting when I heard him say it on the draft video. Whaley is fomenting class conflict....

[nucci]

I thought this ESPN article was thought-provoking concerning the roster and salary cap.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/18451/doug-whaley-bills-middle-class-could-get-squeezed-out

 

"By replacing part of the "middle class" of their roster with cheaper draft selections, the Bills could knock down their cap number and maintain their financial health over the coming seasons. Who is part of the Bills' middle class? I would point to three players in particular: running back Fred Jackson, linebacker Manny Lawson and cornerback Leodis McKelvin."

 

I know some of you boycott Rodak and espn so I pointed it out in the topic and in the thread. No need to click if you don't want to.

Isn't that what most teams do? This doesn't sound like ground breaking info. Players get released every year. (Not against you, Yolo)

[KDIGGZ]

thank you for the synopsis. it will save me from having to click on the link. i don't want to give that clown anymore clicks than we have to.

 

i think Whaley is chomping at the bit to get rid of Fred. I found it interesting that he said he wants Kyle and Mario to retire as Bills but he forgot to mention Fred. he views Bryce Brown as his 4th round draft pick this year (since we don't have one he wants to pretend like Bryce was our pick). so he wants Fred out of the way so that his trade last year doesn't look bad.

 

i wish we could get rid of McLovin but decent CB's in this league are hard to find unfortunately. McLovin is definitely what i would refer to as "serviceable" where he's not too bad that he will cost you games but at the same time he's not that good either. that would be great to get a CB in the draft that would make him replaceable and maybe we could even trade him for a pick next year

[YoloinOhio]

Isn't that what most teams do? This doesn't sound like ground breaking info. Players get released every year. (Not against you, Yolo)

most teams? I don't know... I do think the good teams do. That's why I could see mckelvin getting traded or Lawson cut - some may get upset about us losing depth but the fact is that because of all the big time contracts the Bills are going to have (which is not a bad thing, it means they finally have big time players), they are going to have to really push up the cheap rookie contract guys. I know I've seen people scared about a Duke Williams or Ross Cockrell out there because they are "unproven" and we should have kept guys like Searcy, but Searcy would fall into that middle class. those dollars can be applied elsewhere to re-sign core guys while you lift up a guy like Duke Williams and trust that you have scouted well and developed well. That is just an example.

[John from Riverside]

I would throw Bryce Brown into that as well......

 

This is the first piece Rodent has done that I can actually read without wanting to claw my own eyes out.....

 

Personally I think that this process has already began

 

- I think Manny Lawson could go and be replaced by Randel Johnson.....Randel Johnson started off slow.....but seemed to get better every week and really could fly around the field.....he had some injury problems in his first year

- McKelvin replaced by Ross Cockrell.......McKelvin is a excellent ST's returner...but we appear to have that covered....Cockrell has that size, physical that you look for in a corner

- You also have guys like Robey....who flat out make plays....and releasing McKelvin opens the door for more playing time for Robey

[Lurker]

No need to click if you don't want to.

So in other words...we're becoming a better team.

 

Isn't that bar-bell salary structure typical of any long-term playoff calibre team, where the 'stars' are retained / re-signed (like in the case of Hughes, Dareus, etc.) and the draft is used to fill out the roster.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I thought this ESPN article was thought-provoking concerning the roster and salary cap.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/18451/doug-whaley-bills-middle-class-could-get-squeezed-out

 

"By replacing part of the "middle class" of their roster with cheaper draft selections, the Bills could knock down their cap number and maintain their financial health over the coming seasons. Who is part of the Bills' middle class? I would point to three players in particular: running back Fred Jackson, linebacker Manny Lawson and cornerback Leodis McKelvin."

 

I know some of you boycott Rodak and espn so I pointed it out in the topic and in the thread. No need to click if you don't want to.

 

Hey, they are just copying America; small elite, no middle class, everyone else indentured servants.

[nucci]

most teams? I don't know... I do think the good teams do. That's why I could see mckelvin getting traded or Lawson cut - some may get upset about us losing depth but the fact is that because of all the big time contracts the Bills are going to have (which is not a bad thing, it means they finally have big time players), they are going to have to really push up the cheap rookie contract guys. I know I've seen people scared about a Duke Williams or Ross Cockrell out there because they are "unproven" and we should have kept guys like Searcy, but Searcy would fall into that middle class. those dollars can be applied elsewhere to re-sign core guys while you lift up a guy like Duke Williams and trust that you have scouted well and developed well. That is just an example.

You're right....good teams....plus these 2 will be good players .

[YoloinOhio]

So in other words...we're becoming a better team.

 

Isn't that bar-bell salary structure typical of any long-term playoff calibre team, where the 'stars' are retained / re-signed (like in the case of Hughes, Dareus, etc.) and the draft is used to fill out the roster.

yes. I think in the past decade or so it has been mostly "middle class" players and contracts. The rookie wage scale certainly helps too.

[Chuck Wagon]

It's part of the life cycle of team building. When Buddy and Whaley came in our talent level was among the very worst in the league. We didn't have players worth what guys like Mario, McCoy, Kyle, Dareus or Gilmore are worth, so the first step was getting our talent up to par which necessitated feasting on the middle class good teams can't afford to retain. Now that we have hit on draft picks and are building our core, we'll hopefully have guys good enough to cover for young guys in other spots.

 

Teams like the Packers and Pats don't have the mid level guys like Lawson on their roster. They've built their talent base up to the point they are able to identify the guys in house worth keeping, spend their money on maintaining that core then keep churning the bottom of the roster with fresh (cheap) young guys. It's a huge benefit of not having your hand forced to fill needs through the draft and instead using the BPA approach.

 

When you are paying a QB as much as the contenders are paying them, you are going to lose that middle class. The only "good" team that's consistently making splashes through FA or by trade is the Seahawks, who are still enjoying the benefits of Wilson's rookie deal.

[kota]

All three of those players could go and i wouldn't care.

[YoloinOhio]

It's part of the life cycle of team building. When Buddy and Whaley came in our talent level was among the very worst in the league. We didn't have players worth what guys like Mario, McCoy, Kyle, Dareus or Gilmore are worth, so the first step was getting our talent up to par which necessitated feasting on the middle class good teams can't afford to retain. Now that we have hit on draft picks and are building our core, we'll hopefully have guys good enough to cover for young guys in other spots.

 

Teams like the Packers and Pats don't have the mid level guys like Lawson on their roster. They've built their talent base up to the point they are able to identify the guys in house worth keeping, spend their money on maintaining that core then keep churning the bottom of the roster with fresh (cheap) young guys. It's a huge benefit of not having your hand forced to fill needs through the draft and instead using the BPA approach.

 

When you are paying a QB as much as the contenders are paying them, you are going to lose that middle class. The only "good" team that's consistently making splashes through FA or by trade is the Seahawks, who are still enjoying the benefits of Wilson's rookie deal.

Colts too. Imagine what that roster will look like after Luck is paid. Their drafts have been crap.

[Dorkington]

This happens to most teams most years, named "cap casualties" in the off/pre season. I'd hate to lose FredEx, or McKelvin, but if it means it helps us win more games for a long period of time, then it's a sacrifice I'm willing to deal with.

[YoloinOhio]

This happens to most teams most years, named "cap casualties" in the off/pre season. I'd hate to lose FredEx, or McKelvin, but if it means it helps us win more games for a long period of time, then it's a sacrifice I'm willing to deal with.

i agree it is typical but teams that have been lacking big time players/contracts don't do it as much because they don't have to. I think that's where the Bills have been stuck until recently.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

McKelvin is as middle class as you can get. I'm with the GM on that one.

[Kelly the Dog]

OR... still under the cap, we could sign a couple more for vet minimum and keep them all except Chris Williams. Just sayin.'

[Chuck Wagon]

Admittedly I'm not going to click on Rodak's article, but does anyone else get the vibe he tries really hard to spin every positive into a negative.

 

There not being salary cap room for guys like Freddie, Lawson or McKelvin is not a negative thing if the money is going to perennial Pro Bowlers.

 

 

(If he didn't take this spin, I apologize for my ignorance, but I'm just done with him always taking the glass half empty approach with this franchise and the only way he's going away is if we don't click).

[YoloinOhio]

Admittedly I'm not going to click on Rodak's article, but does anyone else get the vibe he tries really hard to spin every positive into a negative.

 

There not being salary cap room for guys like Freddie, Lawson or McKelvin is not a negative thing if the money is going to perennial Pro Bowlers.

 

 

(If he didn't take this spin, I apologize for my ignorance, but I'm just done with him always taking the glass half empty approach with this franchise and the only way he's going away is if we don't click).

he seemed to angle it toward the bills becoming "top heavy" (Whaley's words) and therefore the money will need to go to the "upper class" so to speak and the lower class (of contracts) needing to step up. Very dependent on having good drafts.

[Chuck Wagon]

he seemed to angle it toward the bills becoming "top heavy" (Whaley's words) and therefore the money will need to go to the "upper class" so to speak and the lower class (of contracts) needing to step up. Very dependent on having good drafts.

 

 

So like I figured earlier, exactly like every other good team in the league.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Chuck Wagon

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

So like I figured earlier, exactly like every other good team in the league.

hopefully, the Bills are finally getting into that category!

[billsfan89]

Make sense if a player like Jackson or McKelvin or Lawson are getting out played in camp by a cheaper rookie they might need to make a cut there. I think the Bills could still make one or two smaller moves and plug in the draft picks and be right at the cap. So there isn't a need to get under the cap right now. Maybe next year players in the middle might have to take cuts as Dareus, Bradham, and possibly Glenn take bigger deals. Chris Williams, Lawson, and Jackson will all likely be cut or retire come next season as there isn't much other fat you could cut on the roster currently.

[BarleyNY]

I thought this ESPN article was thought-provoking concerning the roster and salary cap. http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/18451/doug-whaley-bills-middle-class-could-get-squeezed-out

"By replacing part of the "middle class" of their roster with cheaper draft selections, the Bills could knock down their cap number and maintain their financial health over the coming seasons. Who is part of the Bills' middle class? I would point to three players in particular: running back Fred Jackson, linebacker Manny Lawson and cornerback Leodis McKelvin."

I know some of you boycott Rodak and espn so I pointed it out in the topic and in the thread. No need to click if you don't want to.

This is pretty typical cap management. In '95 during the MLB work stoppage I happened to be in a graduate economics course with a prof whose expertise was in the economics of sports. The money flows to the real difference makers and the players most likely to get squeezed out of jobs are the vets who are paid more than younger players, but don't offer vastly superior play. Younger, developing players also have the potential of improving and becoming difference makers in the future whereas vets are pretty much who they are. Basically, players need to be able to effect the outcomes of games or they'd better be cheap. Everyone else is expendable.

[Chuck Wagon]

hopefully, the Bills are finally getting into that category!

 

 

Honestly at this point it just feels nice to have young guys worth talking about giving big money and actually spending up to the cap. For so long we were stuck in the cycle of blowing our pick, paying that guy anyway because there wasn't anyone better, signing the D List FAs for above market value and leaving $10 mil of unspent cap space.

[Mike in Horseheads]

 

 

Honestly at this point it just feels nice to have young guys worth talking about giving big money and actually spending up to the cap. For so long we were stuck in the cycle of blowing our pick, paying that guy anyway because there wasn't anyone better, signing the D List FAs for above market value and leaving $10 mil of unspent cap space.

Couldn't agree more, whens the last time we had the talent to wonder who might get cut and come back to haunt us? As for the middle three they all will be gone next year and hopefully fast Freddy retires before he's a cripple. Lot of miles on his body from trying to carry dead weight around him.

[ToGoGo]

thank you for the synopsis. it will save me from having to click on the link. i don't want to give that clown anymore clicks than we have to.

 

i think Whaley is chomping at the bit to get rid of Fred. I found it interesting that he said he wants Kyle and Mario to retire as Bills but he forgot to mention Fred. he views Bryce Brown as his 4th round draft pick this year (since we don't have one he wants to pretend like Bryce was our pick). so he wants Fred out of the way so that his trade last year doesn't look bad.

 

i wish we could get rid of McLovin but decent CB's in this league are hard to find unfortunately. McLovin is definitely what i would refer to as "serviceable" where he's not too bad that he will cost you games but at the same time he's not that good either. that would be great to get a CB in the draft that would make him replaceable and maybe we could even trade him for a pick next year

 

That's the one thing I don't like about Whaley. He puts what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team sometimes. I suspect that was the root of many of the Marrone problems.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Get rid of Freddy ? How dare they. Ha.

[billsfan_34]

thank you for the synopsis. it will save me from having to click on the link. i don't want to give that clown anymore clicks than we have to.

 

i think Whaley is chomping at the bit to get rid of Fred. I found it interesting that he said he wants Kyle and Mario to retire as Bills but he forgot to mention Fred. he views Bryce Brown as his 4th round draft pick this year (since we don't have one he wants to pretend like Bryce was our pick). so he wants Fred out of the way so that his trade last year doesn't look bad.

 

i wish we could get rid of McLovin but decent CB's in this league are hard to find unfortunately. McLovin is definitely what i would refer to as "serviceable" where he's not too bad that he will cost you games but at the same time he's not that good either. that would be great to get a CB in the draft that would make him replaceable and maybe we could even trade him for a pick next year

Agree with everything except Leodis...prior to injury the dude was playing at a very high level. He is alot more than "serviceable"

[Kelly the Dog]

 

That's the one thing I don't like about Whaley. He puts what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team sometimes. I suspect that was the root of many of the Marrone problems.

:lol:

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Agree with everything except Leodis...prior to injury the dude was playing at a very high level. He is alot more than "serviceable"

I agree

[Mike in Horseheads]

 

That's the one thing I don't like about Whaley. He puts what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team sometimes. I suspect that was the root of many of the Marrone problems.

I got to say that is the first time I heard that was the problem with Marrone and his coaching!

[ndirish1978]

 

That's the one thing I don't like about Whaley. He puts what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team sometimes. I suspect that was the root of many of the Marrone problems.

 

He traded a 4th rd pick for a player. That player therefore represents our 4th rd pick. HOW is this putting "what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team"? Marrone apologists really have to STRETCH in order to try and make a point now, huh?

 

[dave mcbride]

Good piece. Credit where credit is due.

I would throw Bryce Brown into that as well......

 

This is the first piece Rodent has done that I can actually read without wanting to claw my own eyes out.....

 

Personally I think that this process has already began

 

- I think Manny Lawson could go and be replaced by Randel Johnson.....Randel Johnson started off slow.....but seemed to get better every week and really could fly around the field.....he had some injury problems in his first year

- McKelvin replaced by Ross Cockrell.......McKelvin is a excellent ST's returner...but we appear to have that covered....Cockrell has that size, physical that you look for in a corner

- You also have guys like Robey....who flat out make plays....and releasing McKelvin opens the door for more playing time for Robey

McKelvin can play man, which is an absolute necessity in this defense. Cutting him strikes me as very foolish. I doubt they get rid of him. I can see Lawson leaving, but as a type (Calvin Pace-like) he sorta fits. Freddie is a logical cut, but they're not gonna do it for other reasons (reasons which I agree with).

 

That's the one thing I don't like about Whaley. He puts what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team sometimes. I suspect that was the root of many of the Marrone problems.

I have a slight fear that this is an issue with him. But you could say that about a lot of GMs. I can see him wanting Brown over Jackson for that reason.

Edited April 23, 2015 by dave mcbride

[nucci]

 

That's the one thing I don't like about Whaley. He puts what makes him look good ahead of what's best for the team sometimes. I suspect that was the root of many of the Marrone problems.

Any examples of this? Looks to me like he's done a good job of putting the team first.

[3rdand12]

I certainly found that analogy interesting when I heard him say it on the draft video. Whaley is fomenting class conflict....

Being repressed over here !!

 

Hey, they are just copying America; small elite, no middle class, everyone else indentured servants.

ouch. but no.

Its about bringing up youth to succeed the top tier.

You are referencing the republican mantra. Both are concepts.

I think Whaley is sharing his view of long term team building and saying he has achieved a recognizable stage accomplished.

Preston Brown comes to mind at first .

Get rid of Freddy ? How dare they. Ha.

I know I know. But there comes a time when every cattle goes to slaughter. Even ole Bessie.

Only so much grain to go around.

 

Please dont take it too hard. Fred knows its coming. so when you look him in the eyes , before you hit him in the head with the hammer. tell him thank you for being such a good cow for so long. Its the right thing to do.

I agree

I do too. But my Man Leodis, is in his declining years and injuries may affect his value.

 

 

IMO

[GG]

I certainly found that analogy interesting when I heard him say it on the draft video. Whaley is fomenting class conflict....

Take this talk to PPP buddy. 😊😅☺

[Rocky Landing]

Good piece. Credit where credit is due.

McKelvin can play man, which is an absolute necessity in this defense. Cutting him strikes me as very foolish. I doubt they get rid of him. I can see Lawson leaving, but as a type (Calvin Pace-like) he sorta fits. Freddie is a logical cut, but they're not gonna do it for other reasons (reasons which I agree with).

I agree, also. But, this article referred to 2016, as well. I strongly suspect that Freddie will be gracefully cut/retired after this season, and we will all feel good about it. The writing is certainly on the wall.

 

And, really hoping that he gets to play a game in the post season.

 

GO BILLS!

[NoSaint]

So in other words...we're becoming a better team.

 

Isn't that bar-bell salary structure typical of any long-term playoff calibre team, where the 'stars' are retained / re-signed (like in the case of Hughes, Dareus, etc.) and the draft is used to fill out the roster.

Yup. You find cornerstone players and let other teams overpay for the products of the system. Constantly churning the roster.

[Tipster19]

Does Eric Wood fall into this "Middle Class"? I'm not suggesting cutting him but could or would the Bills dispose of him and his contract in some other way(s)? I'm just wondering.....

[NoSaint]

Does Eric Wood fall into this "Middle Class"? I'm not suggesting cutting him but could or would the Bills dispose of him and his contract in some other way(s)? I'm just wondering.....

If an opportunity comes up, definitely.