Von Miller takes pay cut

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

 

Not likely to be earned incentives are typically based on the player's previous statistical season. I listen to a LOT of Greg Tompsett. That's exactly how he defines it.

 

You can Google it and that's how it's defined, too.

 

I'm sure that player and team can come to a different agreement, but what would be the motivation for the player? The entire point is that it benefits both player and team, as this does.

 

Tompsett also points out that it can work in favor of the team when a player agrees to LIKELY to be earned incentives, but doesn't reach them. For example, Matt Milano signed an extension last offseason. We don't know the details of the incentives in his contract, but assuming the team put incentives in his contract that were likely to be earned incentives in his contract like tackles, sacks, interceptions, and games played... he likely didn't meet those incentives. Those likely to be earned incentives would have counted against the CAP last year and therefore we'd get that money back in the CAP this year.

Yes, NLTBE incentives are based on the players statistics, but they are not just “1 better than last year.” There’s no evidence for that.

 

Our own Ed Oliver has incentives for 6 and 8 sacks in a season in his new contract. Coming off last year where he had 2.5 sacks.

 

So I really am not sure where you are getting the idea that Von’s incentives will be “1 more tackle or sack than he had this year.”

[Spiderweb]

Miller's contract will be the Bills albatross for a few more years. This was not money wisely spent from the get go. Aging player ??? Beane way over paid.

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Von was great in 2022 until the somewhat freak injury. And even though he was worthless in 2023 on field he was a big reason why Floyd who was the teams best edge rusher signed on a team friendly deal. The fact that Von reworked his deal is a big positive in my opinion. Hopefully a year further removed from injury he it is at least possible that he can be a contributor this upcoming season. 
 

It was definitely a “win now” move but at least Von is willing to be flexible on his deal.

 

The Bills just cut better players than Miller is right now.

 

He came for the money....now you think he will play harder for less?

 

 

unlikely.

[gordong]

10 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

 

So it turns out Rapp was inactive for both playoff games?! I guess I remember that now that I've reminded myself via PFR, but how does that align with this recent re-signing?? Someone help me make sense of that super incongruent timeline.

pretty sure he had an injury going on. 

[T master]

All the contracts should be incentive based so that the team doesn't get hung paying a player like they did Marcel Darius . Once he got paid here he took his foot off the gas & just coasted he had no more motivation .

 

I think this is a good thing especially since Von is coming off the injury if he can't be the player he was before his ACL tear he won't get paid like he was before it happened which is good for the Bills cap .

 

They did that last year with Floyd he got paid when he hit double digit sacks and he got his money !! Good for Beane to get this one done .

[Captain Caveman]

14 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Come on, the incentive won't be on last year's production.

 

Probably, but it may be low enough for him to feel he can earn it.

 

As others have said, it counts as unlikely to be earned if it is greater than his performance last year, but it doesn't mean the team is going to give him an incentive for 4 tackles or 1 sack.  The team and Von negotiate what the incentive is based on, and if it is fewer tackles than last year it counts as likely to be earned and goes against this years salary cap.  If it is greater than last years (by 1 or by 100) it counts as unlikely to be earned and only counts against the '25 salary cap if he does in fact earn it.

Edited March 7 by Captain Caveman

[Punching Bag]

14 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Super interesting, but I bet those "hard to reach incentives" were attainable in Von's eyes, which is why he agreed to it.

 

If  it is based on number of snaps yes for many on defense line will not be on roster and he will be competing against draft picks and minimum salary players.

[Billschinatown]

39 minutes ago, gordong said:

pretty sure he had an injury going on. 

He did. He injured himself sealing the game with an interception. 

[ddaryl]

I do not understand the lack of patience for Von Miller in regards to him coming back from a torn ACL. To play at a high level that injury needs a solid year before you can really start to see the player return to form. So much negativity towards Von and I do not get it given the situation.

The fact is, Von did the Bills a huge solid here with this renegotiated contract, which I never expected. 

now we have to sit back and see what he can bring this season. He can be our Ace in the hole this year, or we can realize he never recovered from the ACL... but we have to wait and see.... and then judgements can be made.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Spiderweb said:

Miller's contract will be the Bills albatross for a few more years. This was not money wisely spent from the get go. Aging player ??? Beane way over paid.

He was coming off a tremendous playoff run with the Rams and looking like an all pro.  He won a SB and played a big part in them winning it.  Injury due to age was the only worry imo.  If he hadn’t gotten hurt, the price tag wouldn’t be bad at all considering the players ability and work ethic.  You can’t predict an acl tear.  Was it a gamble?  Definitely.  Did he way overpay?  I don’t think so.  It’s a lot easier to say that after his injury.  We needed a stud pass rusher….and most here wanted Chandler Jones to be that guy.  

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Bills just cut better players than Miller is right now.

 

He came for the money....now you think he will play harder for less?

 

 

unlikely.

He will play harder so he can earn the incentives…..which could allow him to earn more of that money that he came for.  Do you expect him to play with less effort?

[BuffaloRebound]

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/von-millers-gets-back-to-17-5-million-with-10-5-sacks

 

That all looks like not likely to be earned since he had zero sacks last year.  

[Billl]

12 hours ago, Mango said:

Am I missing something? You think Von will get a bonus for 4 tackles?

 

Bonuses are generally based on a total performance not necessarily related to the prior year. I would be shocked if Von triggered additional pay on his 4th tackle. That silly.

It's not silly, though.  The only way Von would agree to this is if he's essentially guaranteed that it won't cost him anything that he was already owed.  The bonus money can be kicked to 2025 as long as it involves him reaching a benchmark that he wouldn't have hit in 2023.  

 

It's a bonus for accounting purposes only.

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

Yes, NLTBE incentives are based on the players statistics, but they are not just “1 better than last year.” There’s no evidence for that.

 

Our own Ed Oliver has incentives for 6 and 8 sacks in a season in his new contract. Coming off last year where he had 2.5 sacks.

 

So I really am not sure where you are getting the idea that Von’s incentives will be “1 more tackle or sack than he had this year.”

Ed's contract was written under entirely different circumstances.  His bonuses are new money that he wasn't already owed.  Von's isn't an incentive to perform.  If it were, he wouldn't have agreed to the new terms.  It's nothing more than a way to push money from 2024 to 2025.  People are overthinking this.

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Billl said:

It's not silly, though.  The only way Von would agree to this is if he's essentially guaranteed that it won't cost him anything that he was already owed.  The bonus money can be kicked to 2025 as long as it involves him reaching a benchmark that he wouldn't have hit in 2023.  

 

It's a bonus for accounting purposes only.

Ed's contract was written under entirely different circumstances.  His bonuses are new money that he wasn't already owed.  Von's isn't an incentive to perform.  If it were, he wouldn't have agreed to the new terms.  It's nothing more than a way to push money from 2024 to 2025.  People are overthinking this.

So you saying that he’s basically guaranteed to get paid the 18Mish he was originally slated for even if he only plays a handful of games?

[MAJBobby]

Millers Incentives

 

He gets $1 million for two sacks. At four sacks, it increases to $2.5 million. With six sacks, it becomes $4 million. At eight sacks, $6 million.

He gets $8.645 million for 10.5 sacks. He gets $9.645 million for 15 sacks.

There’s another $1.5 million available for 12 or more sacks, along with taking 30 percent of more of the defensive snaps in the AFC Championship — and if the Bills win.

Basically, Miller makes his money back if he gets 10.5 sacks. With 15 sacks, he makes $18.5 million for 2024. He maxes out at $20 million for 12 sacks and participation in 30 percent of more of the defensive snaps in an AFC Championship win.

Because these incentives are regarded as “not likely to be earned,” the cap charge for reaching them would apply to 2025, not 2024. So the Bills have reduced Miller’s cap number and, if he doesn’t perform, his total compensation.

Miller hasn’t had 10 or more sacks since 2018. He had double-digit sacks in seven of his first eight NFL seasons.

[Billl]

10 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So you saying that he’s basically guaranteed to get paid the 18Mish he was originally slated for even if he only plays a handful of games?

I haven't seen how it's written, but the idea that he would isn't silly.  It would benefit the Bills without negatively impacting Miller.

[Mr. WEO]

49 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He will play harder so he can earn the incentives…..which could allow him to earn more of that money that he came for.  Do you expect him to play with less effort?

 

 

It would be hard to imagine less effort. 

 

The guy has 180 million, 2 rings. A couple million more for some sacks I really don't think it does it for this guy at this point (he would need a ridiculous 15 sacks to get back to his original 2024 compensation). 

 

He's old and he came off a bad injury that old players don't just blast out of the gate from. 

[4merper4mer]

24 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

It would be hard to imagine less effort. 

 

 

He could eat his way to a new pants size at the Eiffel Tower.

Edited March 7 by 4merper4mer

[Nephilim17]

I had a thought today — total conjecture — about Von's new deal:

Could it be that Beane knows that Von's off-field situation could potentially still be pursued and lead to bad optics for Von's future GM aspirations, and Beane said, give us relief and we will not pursue that...

Any chance what was some of the carrot for Von to give up 8 or 9 million?

Not saying it was, just speculating why Von would do this... 

[Spiderweb]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

He was coming off a tremendous playoff run with the Rams and looking like an all pro.  He won a SB and played a big part in them winning it.  Injury due to age was the only worry imo.  If he hadn’t gotten hurt, the price tag wouldn’t be bad at all considering the players ability and work ethic.  You can’t predict an acl tear.  Was it a gamble?  Definitely.  Did he way overpay?  I don’t think so.  It’s a lot easier to say that after his injury.  We needed a stud pass rusher….and most here wanted Chandler Jones to be that guy.  

Overpay? Definitely. A.ge is not his friend

[NewEra]

24 minutes ago, Billl said:

It's not silly, though.  The only way Von would agree to this is if he's essentially guaranteed that it won't cost him anything that he was already owed.  The bonus money can be kicked to 2025 as long as it involves him reaching a benchmark that he wouldn't have hit in 2023.  

 

It's a bonus for accounting purposes only.

Ed's contract was written under entirely different circumstances.  His bonuses are new money that he wasn't already owed.  Von's isn't an incentive to perform.  If it were, he wouldn't have agreed to the new terms.  It's nothing more than a way to push money from 2024 to 2025.  People are overthinking this.

 

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

I haven't seen how it's written, but the idea that he would isn't silly.  It would benefit the Bills without negatively impacting Miller.

You’re the one that said “The only way Von would agree to this is if he's essentially guaranteed that it won't cost him anything that he was already owed.”   I agree with you that the idea isn’t silly, but that’s not what you’re saying with the bolded.  With your bolded statement you’re implying that the incentives will be simple and that he will be making 17-18M as long as he plays a few games…..that’s the “only way”.  That’s just not a true statement.  
 

Again….i agree that your scenario isn’t silly.  It’s just not unheard of for players to take less money to help the team.  It doesn’t happen more often than not……but those that do are often already ridiculously filthy rich and extremely motivated to win a/another SB

[DCofNC]

I like it, but you have to feel he knew he would be cut if they didn’t work it out, I’m betting the offset language in his contract made it so he wasn’t going to make a whole lot more with a new team and he put out crap tape as and old, undersized, injured DE that had to be made inactive for crucial games. That’s not exactly the kind of stuff that gets you big deals.   Doing this, he gets a chance to make his money, and come back for another decent chunk next year.

 

It could be a win / win.  He may also be cooked and lowered his own take when they send him packing this summer.

[MAJBobby]

Another Tidbit on this renegotiated Contract. 

 

It looks like information is still pending on his Roster Bonus on if this is converted to a signing bonus and prorated. 

 

If it remains and is paid this year the total savings is 8.6M in cap.

If it is converted and prorated that savings goes to about 14M this year.  But adds 1.7M in dead money to each of his remaining years.  

 

 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

It would be hard to imagine less effort. 

 

The guy has 180 million, 2 rings. A couple million more for some sacks I really don't think it does it for this guy at this point (he would need a ridiculous 15 sacks to get back to his original 2024 compensation). 

 

He's old and he came off a bad injury that old players don't just blast out of the gate from. 

Blasting out of the gate was last season.  2024 season, he’ll be 21 months removed from surgery.  That’s not out of the gate anymore.  I doubt he’ll ever be the player that he was, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be a very good player.  
 

I haven’t read much of this thread, have the incentives been announced?  I’ve yet to see the incentives.  We have one guy here saying that the incentives will be easy to achieve or he’d never agree to them.  You’re saying that he needs 15 sacks to make his money back.  
 

If his knee feels good, I don’t see Von giving  any less effort.  If he’s knee is shot, none of this matters, effort or no effort, he’s useless.

Edited March 7 by NewEra

[MAJBobby]

 

[MAJBobby]

The Full renegotiated terms 

 

 

So there is that little 7M cap ticket in Roster Bonus that could free up more money in a week if needed converting it to a signing and prorating.  

 

Here is to VON hitting all incentives and maximizing the deal, Likely means Bills won a SB.  

Edited March 7 by MAJBobby

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

The Full renegotiated terms 

 

 

So there is that little 7M cap ticket in Roster Bonus that could free up more money in a week if needed converting it to a signing and prorating.  

 

Here is to VON hitting all incentives and maximizing the deal, Likely means Bills won a SB.  

Kind of humorous how Beane refuses to show Bills have any cap space by waiting a week to convert the $7m roster bonus.  

[NewEra]

So he took less, and now has the ability to earn more…..which also happens to benefit the Bills.  Imagine that.  🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

The Full renegotiated terms 

 

 

So there is that little 7M cap ticket in Roster Bonus that could free up more money in a week if needed converting it to a signing and prorating.  

 

Here is to VON hitting all incentives and maximizing the deal, Likely means Bills won a SB.  

@transplantbillsfan is going to be shocked to know that Von Miller isn’t going to get ~$10M for 4 tackles. 

[CA OC Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

all that cash being paid this year would both be real dollars out of pegulas pocket and also new money to account for against the cap 

he reduced those today to be in line with what would’ve hit if he was cut. 
 

you can chose to believe it was pure goodness in his heart if you want but common sense says he was told “you will receive x dollars, do you prefer to be a bill or a free agent at that number?”

transplant is still working on figuring out void years. Don’t let him teach you about l likely to be earned bonuses

Not quite sure what you are trying to say about this. That if Miller refused the pay cut then they would have decided that to save Pegula money, they should cut him even though it would hurt the team's ability to sign players? From a cap standpoint, it would not have been advantageous to cut him. What have they done since Pegula bought the team to suggest he makes decisions based on his pocketbook?

 

Here are the options the Bills had if Miller didn't agree to the pay cut:

- Leave him on the team with the existing contract. $23.7 million against the cap in 2024.

- Cut him now. $32 million against the 2024 cap. I.e., an $8.3 million more than having him on the team taking a roster spot. Do you really think with where the Bills are cap wise they would do this? 

- Cut him with a post June 1 designation. $17 million against the 2024 cap, $15.4 million against the 2025 cap. So, they save $6.7 million this year against the cap year. Possibly you think that the Bills were planning on this if he didn't take the cut. I doubt it. Still a huge dead cap hit each of the next two years. Unless they are convinced he's toast, I don't think this was much of an option.

 

Instead of the above, Miller now will count $8.645 million against the cap, he'll earn a base of $8.855 with a chance to make $20 million with incentives, up from $17.5 million. For Miller, if he's toast, it's a HUGE pay cut. If he's back to his old self, he'll make $2.5 million more than he would have under his old contract. And, freeing up space makes it more likely that the Bills will sign enough free agents to mean he'll have help on the D line and that the Bills will complete for a SB. Knowing how positive a person he is, I suspect Miller fully expects to meet all of his incentives and therefore was rewarded with a pay increase instead of a cut!

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Blasting out of the gate was last season.  2024 season, he’ll be 21 months removed from surgery.  That’s not out of the gate anymore.  I doubt he’ll ever be the player that he was, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be a very good player.  
 

I haven’t read much of this thread, have the incentives been announced?  I’ve yet to see the incentives.  We have one guy here saying that the incentives will be easy to achieve or he’d never agree to them.  You’re saying that he needs 15 sacks to make his money back.  
 

If his knee feels good, I don’t see Von giving  any less effort.  If he’s knee is shot, none of this matters, effort or no effort, he’s useless.

 

 

see above. 15 sacks to get the 9 million back.  He has had one season over 15 many years ago.

[CA OC Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

see above. 15 sacks to get the 9 million back.  He has had one season over 15 many years ago.

Yeah, I just read the terms that were posted above after posting my response to NoSaint. Even though Miller is one of the most positive people I've heard, I doubt even he believes he's going to get 15 sacks or even the 10.5 that he'd need to earn $8.645 bonus. But, perhaps 8 sacks to earn $6 million? Obviously, as unlikely as it is, we'll all root for him to get the 15 sacks and earn the full bonus.

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That's the difference between likely to be earned and not likely to be earned. It's not what they are "typically based on."

 

There are PLENTY of not likely to be earned bonuses set a lot higher than what the player did last year.

 

So a likely to be earned incentive on tackles for Von would have to be at 3 tackles or less. But a not likely to be earned incentive could be set at four. Or at 50.

 

There's a famous story about Brady keeping Gronk in the last game of the year to earn his incentives. Those incentives were set at 55 receptions and 750 yards. But the year before he'd put up 45 catches and 623 yards.

 

You can set not-likelies as high as you want.

 

 

 

Look, I'm no CAP expert, but I'm quite sure I have this right.

 

Not likely to be earned incentives AND likely to be earned incentives are based strictly on the prior year's performance.

 

But it's not like those are the only bonuses players get during the season.  The one you reference with Gronk was likely Performance based pay.  And you're right, performance based pay can absolutely be set at whatever level team and player agree upon.

 

My point was that we don't actually know what the incentives were, but I would bet that in order for Miller to agree to this, there were some Not likely to be earned incentives built in that he's very obviously going to earn considering the season he had last year.  I listed the 3 very obvious ones of tackles, sacks and games played.

6 hours ago, Mango said:

Greg gets some things right. But he gets a lot wrong especially regarding the cap. Cover 1 started as great. They’re less great now. Just my opinion on them. 
 

I think the reason a player is willing to take an incentive laden deal in this situation is because if they don’t his career likely ends. Unless Von has 15+ sacks this year his time here is done at season end. And maybe his career overall is done. You can’t keep a guy who vastly underperforms his cost. And nobody wants to sign a guy who underperforms. 
 

But take a haircut with the possibility to win it back based on performance? If Von gets 8.5 sacks this year at $8M people are having the conversation “He just needed a year to get right” and even if he doesn’t stick around here he is a guy who performed at a level commensurate with his pay. Good credit and bad credit matter. 

 

What does Greg get wrong regarding the CAP?  I listen to him a lot. I also just cross referenced the whole conversation of "likely to be earned" and "not likely to be earned" incentives being based on the prior year and sure seems like he's right.

 

It's just that maybe people are misunderstanding what I'm saying and are thinking those are the only 2 possible incentives that Von could have renegotiated for, and as I just said, they aren't.

 

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

Yes, NLTBE incentives are based on the players statistics, but they are not just “1 better than last year.” There’s no evidence for that.

 

Our own Ed Oliver has incentives for 6 and 8 sacks in a season in his new contract. Coming off last year where he had 2.5 sacks.

 

So I really am not sure where you are getting the idea that Von’s incentives will be “1 more tackle or sack than he had this year.”

 

As I just said, those are Performance based incentives.  That's different from NLTBE/LTBE.

[transplantbillsfan]

53 minutes ago, FireChans said:

@transplantbillsfan is going to be shocked to know that Von Miller isn’t going to get ~$10M for 4 tackles. 

 

No, I never said that was the contract.  What I said was that Von wouldn't have signed the contract if there weren't something like some NLTBE incentives in there. The player and team would have to agree on what those incentives would be.

 

Looks like I was right about that and (mostly) right about how those incentives work. Obviously Von didn't get a sack last year and his incentives start at 2 sacks.  I wonder if there's a $500k incentive for 1 sack of if there's a clause in the incentive verbiage that because of his natural position as an edge rusher, there's a baseline of expectation on the position based on the agreed upon metric.  Like 1 sack for an edge rusher if sacks are the agreed upon metric.  But if it were tackles and Von didn't have any tackles last year it would have been 1 tackle so he would need at least 2.  Or for a WR if they 1 reception would probably be what the WR would want over 1 TD, etc.

 

That's just my guess.  But you can go look yourself.  NLTBE incentives are based on prior year's performance.

 

And I think everyone would want him to earn all of his money back.

Edited March 7 by transplantbillsfan

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Ok now that the entire incentive package is out I'm good with the deal.

 

I'll be rooting for him to hit the max since that means a whole lot of sacks and a SB appearance. 

 

The other option is for him to hit 0 and earn none of them. 

 

Worst case scenario is he makes it to 8 sacks with all of them coming in garbage time against bad teams. 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

see above. 15 sacks to get the 9 million back.  He has had one season over 15 many years ago.

Do you think 15 sacks is his only goal here?  That line of thinking implies that15 sacks is the only incentive.  It’s not.  There are several incentives.  Each sack is that much closer to getting him millions more. He’ll be playing with 💯+ effort as long as his knee isn’t still bothering him. I have no doubt.  I don’t think he’d be trying harder if he had that money guaranteed, especially if he didn’t have confidence in his knee.  

[billsfan89]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Bills just cut better players than Miller is right now.

 

He came for the money....now you think he will play harder for less?

 

 

unlikely.

I don’t doubt Von came for money but I also think he is going to play hard to get as much of his incentives as he can. About half if not more of his salary in this upcoming seasons are incentives that are attainable. So I think your assessment of Von in 2024 is not accurate he’s going to give it all he has.

[Blackbeard]

I love this story and Von.

 

Guy gets hurt.  Bets and believes in himself.  Gotta love the self confidence here.

 

This is class act stuff.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, Blackbeard said:

I love this story and Von.

 

Guy gets hurt.  Bets and believes in himself.  Gotta love the self confidence here.

 

This is class act stuff.  

He’s getting paid market value now, probably more. 
 

I’m glad he did it but the Bills were going to release him. If he plays like last year we’re still overpaying. Plus he’s taking a roster spot. He was terrible last year. Rarely do players play terrible at his age and then get better. 
 

We will see. I would’ve rather released him and take the hit.

 

 

Edited March 7 by Buffalo_Stampede

[The Red King]

Why do some people keep handwaving his injury?  Dude was playing solid football until the Detroit turf reached up and bit him.  His pressure sealed a win against KC two years ago.

 

I say this because some people talk like he never did anything for us and his production just fell off a cliff due to age.

 

Now, his age+injury is a concern.  He may well be done.  But with all this extra time he might just come back strong.  No way to know.  That's why I really like this contract.  I think I'm okay giving him each chunk of money at its respective tier, and more then happy to give him all that money if he gets all those sacks and gets us to the Super Bowl.