Can we bring the Beasley/Mckenzie role back already?

[pennstate10]

4 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

I’ve noticed that with Kincaid as well. In fact it’s been my only disappointment with him. I’ve mentioned this lack of playmaking ability when folks compare him to other elite tight ends. However, that’s not what I saw from him as a college player. The NFL is obviously a step up with faster defensive players, but I’m not convinced his RAC ability is as bad as appears. I don’t think the routes he’s asked to run put him in the best position to make plays. He’s taking on a role that’s similar to running backs as outlet receivers. 

What???

 

Kincaid has 282 YAC this year. Good for 11th among TE. 
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-te.php

I have no clue where stupid statements like this come from. 

 

[Bermuda Triangle]

4 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

What???

 

Kincaid has 282 YAC this year. Good for 11th among TE. 
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-te.php

I have no clue where stupid statements like this come from. 

 

I should have been more clear - he hasn't shown an ability to break tackles/shake free of defenders.  

 

Regardless,  considering he's 8th in receptions, is being 11 in YAC good?

[SirAndrew]

13 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

What???

 

Kincaid has 282 YAC this year. Good for 11th among TE. 
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-te.php

I have no clue where stupid statements like this come from. 

 

I think you misunderstood. I basically said I don’t think Kincaid passes the eye test of being a Kelce like playmaker, but he showed that ability more in college. The stats do indicate it’s better than it looked to me, but there’s no denying most receptions have been dump offs that limit YAC yards. That’s mostly what I blame for not being even better in that category. I appreciate the stats, because that makes your point, but Kincaid can be even better than that. 

7 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

I should have been more clear - he hasn't shown an ability to break tackles/shake free of defenders.  

 

Regardless,  considering he's 8th in receptions, is being 11 in YAC good?

I agree, Knox (when he actually catches the ball) looks like a threat for a big play every time, while Kincaid does appear weak by TE standards with the ball. However, Kincaid might be more the shifty type, than power runner, we just haven’t maximized that potential. I wish we could combine Kincaid’s hands with Knox’s power. With that said, Kincaid is a really good player who will only keep getting better imo. It’s not like I don’t really like Kincaid as a player. 

Edited January 2 by SirAndrew

[pennstate10]

4 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Kincaid has shown zero RAC ability so far.

I don’t know. This statement seems pretty clear to me. How was it misunderstood?

[Bermuda Triangle]

10 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

I don’t know. This statement seems pretty clear to me. How was it misunderstood?

He's 40th in YAC/reception, I believe.

 

Edited: 40th amongst TEs.

Edited January 2 by Bermuda Triangle

[pennstate10]

YAC/R with no minimum receptions is not very useful. You’re considering TE with literally 2 and 3 catches. 

 

Kincaid is at 4.3. Ahead of LaPorta, Hurst, Hockenson, etc, all below 4.2. 
 

Take your lap and move on. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

YAC/R with no minimum receptions is not very useful. You’re considering TE with literally 2 and 3 catches. 

 

Kincaid is at 4.3. Ahead of LaPorta, Hurst, Hockenson, etc, all below 4.2. 
 

Take your lap and move on. 

What arbitrary  minimum reception figure would you like you use as a filter?

 

As asked earlier, regarding gross YAC, considering he's 8th in receptions, is being 11 in gross YAC good?

 

[QLBillsFan]

That was supposed to be filled by the generational Kincaid 🤷🏻‍♂️

5 hours ago, UmbrellaMan said:

Can Kaiir Elam play WR? He ran a 4.39 at the combine, and was an excellent WR in high school. 

😳 that should be an easy transition at this stage 😂 

[Luka]

Shakir is the answer. Been saying all season, why have we forgotten the quick slant and pop pass to the slot? Shakir is better with the ball in his hands than Beasley and a much better receiver than McKenzie. 

[pennstate10]

44 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

I don’t know. This statement seems pretty clear to me. How was it misunderstood?

Let’s make this clear. 
You stated Kincaid has ZERO RAC ability. 
 

Kincaid has 282 yd in RAC this year, good for 11th. 
 

Therefore, your statement is wrong.  Full stop. 
 

 

[QLBillsFan]

5 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

Why can’t Kincaid and/or Shakir be that guy? This is where I have issues with the structure of this offense under both coordinations this season. 

Yes they both seem skilled enough. We were told Kincaid was unique as a TE and more of a hybrid WR. And while it’s early in his career so far he’s not made a significant impact. He will likely only get better. Shakir has shown progress as well. So I think they should evoke. How much is on scheme vs talent 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Let’s make this clear. 
You stated Kincaid has ZERO RAC ability. 
 

Kincaid has 282 yd in RAC this year, good for 11th. 
 

Therefore, your statement is wrong.  Full stop. 
 

 

Yes, I figured you wouldn't answer the question, which I'll post again (italicized), for your convenience.

 

As asked 2x earlier, regarding gross YAC, considering he's 8th in receptions, is being 11 in gross YAC good?

 

Clearly, when Kincaid catches the ball with no defender in front of him, he can run after the catch (like the TD against the Buccaneers).  

[Mister Defense]

6 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

Its always been easier for this offense to operate with those standard slot route, but Josh was always looking for the bigger play

But things have changed this year...Allen has been working on the mindset to take what the defense gives....that role would be exactly what would help this offense move.

 

Right? Or no?

 

Yup, as that is essential if the passing game is to work well, was the foundation of that when Beasley was here.

 

What happened to the short/middle and intermediate routes lately?? When those are the main focus this team looks its best and seems to have the most fun too.

 

Shakir seems to be that guy, and needs more of those crossing routes along with the backs, tight ends, and the other receivers.

 

Looked too one dimensional yesterday, more like a dorsey offense at times.

 

When the short passing game is working well this offense and team look unbeatable.

 

 

[boyst]

6 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Kincaid has shown zero RAC ability so far.

In relationship to the right end position that we are used to see, correct. Knox gets 2-3 yards if any. Kincaid gets 4-5. A wr like Shakir clears 10+ on the same routes.

 

Anyone else on that long TD to Shakir and they're caught.

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

Can we bring the Beasley/Mckenzie role back already?

 

Just a thought, maybe the reason why we haven't has to do with coaching.  

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

[billsfan3482]

6 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

I miss the Beasley underneath roll. That's when our offense was clicking 

What I remember and missed the most about Beasley was no matter if it was 3rd and short or 3rd and long he seemed always open for a guaranteed 1st down.  Sometimes he got hit hard as ***** after, but it moved the chains.

 

It sucks talking about how great or unstoppable our offense was, when it wasnt even that long ago and its the same regime.

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Trade for DK Metcalf and turn Diggs into a 120 catch slot receiver. 

[K-9]

Another Little Dirty would be far easier to find than another Beasley, who read the field like a QB, both pre and post snap. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

8 hours ago, dma0034 said:

I agree completely! But who? Hunter Renfrow or Chris Godwin are good options but you'd have to trade for them.

 

Bills need WR to be the #1 priority in the offseason.

This should be an easy position to grab in the offseason.   The Beasley, McKenzie type are a bit underrated league wide.  A cheap FA or draft pick should not be difficult.   Probably can't afford Renfrow.  Definitely not Godwin. 

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Trade for DK Metcalf and turn Diggs into a 120 catch slot receiver. 

I dream of Josh with multiple offensive weapons.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Kincaid has shown zero RAC ability so far.

 

 

Um, no.

 

Of his 589 yards, 282 are YAC, according to Pro Football Ref. He's kicking ass at YAC.

 

4.3 per reception so far. His YAC is almost as much as his yards before reception, 4.7.

 

Kincaid is Josh's Beasley this year, his easy button.

 

 

Edited January 2 by Thurman#1

[Dr.Sack]

I prefer not modeling my offense around a 5’7” slot WR whose only route was identifying and sitting in the soft part of a zone, catching the ball and diving to the ground.  

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Yes, I figured you wouldn't answer the question, which I'll post again (italicized), for your convenience.

 

As asked 2x earlier, regarding gross YAC, considering he's 8th in receptions, is being 11 in gross YAC good?

 

Clearly, when Kincaid catches the ball with no defender in front of him, he can run after the catch (like the TD against the Buccaneers).  

 

 

Yes, it is, it's very good. Particularly for a rookie, but generally in his situation, which is catching ball near the LOS, which is where there are generally plenty of guys waiting to close, yes, it's really good, especially considering how conservative his usage was for his first five games or so.

 

The skill isn't running when there's no defender in front of him. It's two things, arranging things so there's nobody around him / in front of him when he catches it, and breaking/avoiding tackles. Kincaid is terrific at getting into situations where YAC is available. And at instantly heading directly upfield, even setting himself up to do that before he even makes the catch and gets his head around.

 

Kincaid was sensational at breaking and avoiding tackles in college. He hasn't done as well at that in the NFL but he's still terrific at finding situations where he's got separation and YAC is available and exploiting them to the max.

 

More, his YAC/R is equal to or better than Beasley's was in any but Beasley's first year here, and even then it was only a 0.6 yard difference. And that was Beasley's - what? - fifth year in the league?

 

Kincaid's YAC/R

2023 4.3

 

Beasley's YAC/R

2019 4.9

2020 4.3

2021 3.7

2022 2.3

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2 by Thurman#1

[John from Riverside]

This is the year to draft wide receivers if you need them
 

Several available we should be taking one really early like in the first round

[Ray Stonada]

Draft the replacement to Davis. Tall outside speedster with hands like glue, hopefully.

 

He and Diggs are WR1 and 2 outside.

 

Kincaid and Knox are perfect for TE1 and 2, and 12 personnel. Knox might need to go after next year to save money.

 

Play Shakir at WR3. He’s plenty good enough.

 

Big thing: stop thinking WR4-5 will get a lot of targets. Don’t waste money there—no need for Harty and Sherfield. Use it to discover what you have with players like Shorter and Isabella, and if they develop they move up.

[Thrivefourfive]

Regarding Beasley role:

Right. And it doesn’t need to be Renfrow (who’s too slow), Wes Welker, Julian Edelman or any other designated short/quick white WR. For right now, put Shakir in the spot and scheme heavy to that position. It’s not an experiment if it’s a known result that it will elevate the passing game all over the field for every skilled guy, and even help the offensive line due to quicker throws to the slotter. Diggs, Kincaid and Davis would have more opportunities against defensives that have to respect the slotter. 
 

The next generation of the Cole Bradley’s are lighting it up from the slot AND making long plays. The NFL rules are allowing these smaller guys to get loose and run far —— can’t touch the QB so he breaks the pocket, buying time for Flowers and Dell to go untouched downfield. Then you have the cheating-illegal formation-and-false starting offensive linemen protecting the pocket, allowing for easy completions to Zay and Tank. 

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

He's 40th in YAC/reception, I believe.

 

Edited: 40th amongst TEs.

 

 

Please.

 

That figure, 40th, is if you include guys like Chris Manhertz, who has two receptions on the season for a total of 16 yards. Apparently, 10 of those 16 yards were after the catch, though, so the guy must be great. Or Kenny Yeboah, near the top of the list because he's averaging 10.0 yards of YAC on his two completions for 28 yards.

 

Guys like Lucas Krull with 8 catches, Brycen Hopkins with 3, Stone Smartt with 9, Nate Adkins with 4, Julian Hill with 5, Brenton Strange with 5, Mitchell Wilcox with 9, MyCole Pruitt with 8, Josiah Deguara with 8 and Elijah Higgins with 12 ...

 

Throw out guys with less than 30 catches and he's about 15th in that stat, and I don't believe any of the guys above him are rooks.

 

 

Edited January 2 by Thurman#1

[Spiderweb]

16 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Shakir has shown he can work anywhere on the field. I think maybe hes a little slower that youd want in the slot and it requires Josh and him to be on the same page.

 

But id certainly like him to be that for us this year.

Beasley was no burner. Shakir is quick and he should be able to handle the slot. Needs to work on his routes and being on same page as Allen.

[Spiderweb]

16 hours ago, Locomark said:

I think you may be missing that they are using Kincaid as that 70 catch short 7 yard pass guy this year. He will just get better. The difference was Beasley rarely was able to get anything greater than 15 yards. 

But Beasley's change direction was outstanding which made him so effective.

[Buffalo03]

10 hours ago, billsfan3482 said:

What I remember and missed the most about Beasley was no matter if it was 3rd and short or 3rd and long he seemed always open for a guaranteed 1st down.  Sometimes he got hit hard as ***** after, but it moved the chains.

 

It sucks talking about how great or unstoppable our offense was, when it wasnt even that long ago and its the same regime.

 

 

I know, just 2 years ago our offense was a machine. Now it's hard to move the ball 

[Homey D. Clown]

17 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

Its always been easier for this offense to operate with those standard slot route, but Josh was always looking for the bigger play

But things have changed this year...Allen has been working on the mindset to take what the defense gives....that role would be exactly what would help this offense move.

 

Right? Or no?

 

Has that not been Shakir's role this year?  I can't say for sure if his routes are the same though...

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

We have that guy. His name is Dalton Kincaid.

[BananaB]

I would like to see the little pop pass McKenzie use to run. 

[Ramza86]

7 minutes ago, Homey D. Clown said:

 

Has that not been Shakir's role this year?  I can't say for sure if his routes are the same though...

 

I would say that is his role......but outside of a handful of plays there hasnt been much going on in that role

 

Thats a role we know to be effective and is probably the role that makes the most sense right now as we are doing a lot of short stuff. 

 

It seems like we replaced that with the quick WR screen that almost never works. Very frustrating. 

[aristocrat]

we certainly need a more sure handed guy to get those quick over the middle throws bease used to get us. Should open up allen to start completing more down the field throws he doesn't seem to be hitting as often cause teams are taking that away. Kincaid is going to do nothing but get better. 

[Teddy KGB]

16 hours ago, Rock'em Sock'em said:

Isabella, 4.31.  I wonder what's holding him back, as they favor Sherfield.

prob the fact that he’s done nothing ever 

[Jerome007]

14 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

I prefer not modeling my offense around a 5’7” slot WR whose only route was identifying and sitting in the soft part of a zone, catching the ball and diving to the ground.  

Bills O was not modeled after him. But he was damn good at this, and it'd pay off. Beasley helped convert tons of 3rd downs. As if that was a bad thing to have special role players. Kelce is as good at finding spots as Beasley was, and then has the size to do more. So? He is elite. Does every Bills player have to be elite?

 

As for Kincaid, I was telling people he'd be used as a deep threat in the last game. Amd he was. Results: One INT, one incompletion, one long catch. Not the greatest start but he is a threat, continue to use him that way! With him and Cook, the Bills O can be a nightmare to defend, for all the complaining about Diggs and Davis. The Bills currently have all the tools to crush it.