DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[John from Riverside]

58 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Look this is McDermott using the last "blame" he can before Terry has to fire his butt.  McDermott has been the problem and he needs to go.

Maybe Josh isn't motivated because he is thinking "WTF bother?"  Has that ever occurred to anyone?  He knows what he is up against in McDermott and as I said a couple of weeks ago, I feel the ONLY way this is resolved is for Josh to set up a one-on-one with Terry and say "If he stays, then I go. I'll give you the rest of the season, but after that, a decision has to be made".

Do you even understand how NFL contract work?

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, gobills404 said:

That must be why his completion% and successful play% are so low. No chance in hell they’re both second best in the league. Oh wait.

 

While we are looking at those great stats we should also factor in that he is currently the best at turning the ball over.

 

And he was the best at that in 2022 with 19.

 

It matters when talking about reading coverages...and getting the ball where it needs to be or just handling snaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Allen2Moulds]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

Right. And yours is Allen is doing great right now. Expecting your franchise elite qb to not make rookie mistakes is too much to ask in your book apparently. Hopefully that’s not the sentiment at OBD or this team will never win a championship. 

It goes hand and hand. Look at Donovan McNabb with and without Andy Reid. If you put Mahommes in this predictable offense, we'd be saying the same thing about him. It's too hard in the NFL to win, and takes the perfect marriage of a coach and QB. You need both. Not sure why we're trying to separate that. Do people on here want to get rid of Allen? This is getting absurd.

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Do you even understand how NFL contract work?

Yes. He walks in and says I sit. the worst they can do is fine him (who cares he has millions) and at worst ask for the pro-rated amount of his signing bonus back.  Trade him is about all they can do as he takes up a ton of their cap and again he has millions to sit on and can outlast the fines. 

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Do you even understand how NFL contract work?

No, most people don't. We have one poster on here who wants to "clean house," meaning trading Miller, Allen, Diggs, and Knox this offseason. Their dead cap alone would total 183 million dollars.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Yes. He walks in and says I sit. the worst they can do is fine him (who cares he has millions) and at worst ask for the pro-rated amount of his signing bonus back.  Trade him is about all they can do as he takes up a ton of their cap and again he has millions to sit on and can outlast the fines. 

Do you realize how insane this sounds?

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Yes. He walks in and says I sit. the worst they can do is fine him (who cares he has millions) and at worst ask for the pro-rated amount of his signing bonus back.  Trade him is about all they can do as he takes up a ton of their cap and again he has millions to sit on and can outlast the fines. 

Josh Allen's dead cap is more than double his cap hit next year. And in any case, we have had no indication that Josh Allen has any problem with McDermott. We just assume that he's mad because we're mad.

[uninja]

7 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

While we are looking at those great stats we should also factor in that he is currently the best at turning the ball over.

 

And he was the best at that in 2022 with 19.

 

It matters when talking about reading coverages...and getting the ball where it needs to be or just handling snaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So we're saying that for 2022 and 2023, when Dorsey was the OC, JA became very turnover prone. This still leads me to believe that Dorsey was the problem because his offense was overly simplistic in its presentation but extremely complex in its execution. The defense knew what the offense wanted to do, and could easily bait JA into making the wrong throw because the plays only work if everyone on the field is on the same page.

[Tenhigh]

18 hours ago, MarkKelso'sHelmet said:

You can try to meet me at my work, but you won't get past security. 

I'm willing to bet its the same for you at Bills games.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Tenhigh

[Buffalo Boy]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

With Matt Rhule running the offense as the HC.  

He didn’t call the plays, Brady did.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, uninja said:

 

So we're saying that for 2022 and 2023, when Dorsey was the OC, JA became very turnover prone. This still leads me to believe that Dorsey was the problem because his offense was overly simplistic in its presentation but extremely complex in its execution. The defense knew what the offense wanted to do, and could easily bait JA into making the wrong throw because the plays only work if everyone on the field is on the same page.

 

A lot of gray area when assessing accountability with so much conjecture, but I would not argue that Allen has not regressed under Dorsey's tenure as OC.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by WideNine

[CincyBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Burrow has also taken care of the ball better with only 6 INTs to Allen's 11 and only 2 fumbles to Allen's 4.

 

 

Let's be clear here:  Burrow has a total of 14 TD's and 6 INT's and 1 LOST FUMBLE.  I don't care about "fumbles" only lost fumbles.  Allen has 26 total TD's and 11 INT's and 3 lost fumbles.

 

So Burrow's TD/TO ration is a very good 2 and Allen's is an almost as good 1.85.  Anyway you slice the data the "Allen is a TO machine" narrative is way overblown.  BTW, Burrow's 2 BAD INT's in the 4th quarter against the Texans lost the Bengal's that game.  Allen's TO against Denver ere nowhere near as damaging or as bad.

 

But hey I'm an Allen apologist so hat do I know.

 

[Bruffalo]

28 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

While we are looking at those great stats we should also factor in that he is currently the best at turning the ball over.

 

And he was the best at that in 2022 with 19.

 

It matters when talking about reading coverages...and getting the ball where it needs to be or just handling snaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is fun.  Now do what % of offensive yards he was responsible for in 21 and 22.

[FireChans]

35 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

This is for you "dude":

 

 

I posted this elsewhere but it also is pertinent here for all of you Dorsey haters:

 

 

 

Brady clearly needs to get the offense to perform better. Everyone can see the offense has major issues. Scoring 7 points for 55 minutes is not good, which we have done for multiple games. Getting outschemed or outplayed by bad teams is not good. Having massive execution issues is not good. They have virtually no injuries outside of Knox.
 

If your opinion is that this is the third best offense in football, which is what DVOA says, I 100% disagree. If you say maybe that’s a little overrated, then you agree that stat is not correct and we are just haggling. 
 

We have a top 5 QB and a top 5 WR, in year 6 of the same offensive system. Rookie mistakes should still not be happening.

 

And yes, that includes the players. You can’t fire every player. You fire the guy who coaches them if they all continue to play badly.

 

What I LOVE is folks who point to EPA/play and DVOA and ALSO say that the players sucking isn’t Dorsey’s fault. If the numbers are great, I guess the players don’t suck either. Unless the numbers are wrong. Because of course they are.

[gobills404]

1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

If you are too blind to see that both of these things can be true, that's a you problem.

No actual evidence to support your point so you go with the ol’ “you’re blind”. So predictable 🥱.

[uninja]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

Brady clearly needs to get the offense to perform better. Everyone can see the offense has major issues. Scoring 7 points for 55 minutes is not good, which we have done for multiple games. Getting outschemed or outplayed by bad teams is not good. Having massive execution issues is not good. They have virtually no injuries outside of Knox.
 

If your opinion is that this is the third best offense in football, which is what DVOA says, I 100% disagree. If you say maybe that’s a little overrated, then you agree that stat is not correct and we are just haggling. 
 

We have a top 5 QB and a top 5 WR, in year 6 of the same offensive system. Rookie mistakes should still not be happening.

 

And yes, that includes the players. You can’t fire every player. You fire the guy who coaches them if they all continue to play badly.

 

What I LOVE is folks who point to EPA/play and DVOA and ALSO say that the players sucking isn’t Dorsey’s fault. If the numbers are great, I guess the players don’t suck either. Unless the numbers are wrong. Because of course they are.

 

Completely agree, I don't care what the stats say, for the last 2 seasons this offense just doesn't pass the eye test. Everything looks hard and feels like a chore. Like the offense is somehow succeeding in spite of the plays and play calling.

[BuffaloMatt]

1 hour ago, Bob Jones said:

Seems obvious to me that one player may have screwed up big time. I assume that the FG defensive unit is always the same 11 guys, so unless one of those guys was injured, who was the 12th guy who shouldn’t have been out there? After Wilson did the kneel down on 3rd down (that play started with :24 left), the Broncos had to run their FG team out there (as the clock was running) and the Bills ran at least FIVE guys from the sideline out there, going from their Dime Pkg to the FG unit. There really wasn’t time for a Bills defensive Capt to do a head count at that point; and it wouldn’t have mattered anyway because they couldn't call a TO, and there wouldn’t have been enough time for the 12th man to run off the field.

 

Bottom line is that during those two previous TOs that the Bills took (after Denver's 1st and 2nd downs, immediately after the PI call on Johnson) everything should have been planned out as to who was going to be out there for the FG. Hell, the FG defensive unit should have been put out there on 3rd down.

Thank you for agreeing that special teams coach screwed the pooch. 

[DrDawkinstein]

19 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I dunno how to fix that for you but here it is embedded

 

 

 

I dont fancy myself an Xs and Os guy. Especially on Offense. And especially with modern NFL Offenses.

 

That said, over the past couple weeks I've watched:

1. the JT O'Sullivan breakdown of the Tampa game

2. the Cover1 breakdown of the Tampa game

3. a couple other Cover1 videos from this season

 

Maybe 2-3 hours worth of watching unofficial videos of guys who are knowledgeable but still mostly guessing on what is happening on the field.

 

From that alone, this past Monday Night, I was able to tell my wife exactly what play the Bills were running and exactly what routes the WRs would be running a number of times.

And I dont know JACK SQUAT!

 

Every DC has us figured out. Every defensive player should have us figured out.

 

That alone is grounds for firing Ken Dorsey.

[Allen2Moulds]

12 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont fancy myself an Xs and Os guy. Especially on Offense. And especially with modern NFL Offenses.

 

That said, over the past couple weeks I've watched:

1. the JT O'Sullivan breakdown of the Tampa game

2. the Cover1 breakdown of the Tampa game

3. a couple other Cover1 videos from this season

 

Maybe 2-3 hours worth of watching unofficial videos of guys who are knowledgeable but still mostly guessing on what is happening on the field.

 

From that alone, this past Monday Night, I was able to tell my wife exactly what play the Bills were running and exactly what routes the WRs would be running a number of times.

And I dont know JACK SQUAT!

 

Every DC has us figured out. Every defensive player should have us figured out.

 

That alone is grounds for firing Ken Dorsey.

I'm no expert, but could see that teams know exactly what we're doing, based on the number of times that defenders are beating our WR's to the spot.  Like hey.....almost looks like he knows he was going there.  i understand that's bound to happen from time to time, but it seems that it was happening at an alarming rate.  Being predictable, which is clearly what Dorsey is/was, is on the opposite side of the spectrum of creativity.  

[Low Positive]

16 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont fancy myself an Xs and Os guy. Especially on Offense. And especially with modern NFL Offenses.

 

That said, over the past couple weeks I've watched:

1. the JT O'Sullivan breakdown of the Tampa game

2. the Cover1 breakdown of the Tampa game

3. a couple other Cover1 videos from this season

 

Maybe 2-3 hours worth of watching unofficial videos of guys who are knowledgeable but still mostly guessing on what is happening on the field.

 

From that alone, this past Monday Night, I was able to tell my wife exactly what play the Bills were running and exactly what routes the WRs would be running a number of times.

And I dont know JACK SQUAT!

 

Every DC has us figured out. Every defensive player should have us figured out.

 

That alone is grounds for firing Ken Dorsey.

He should have been fired as soon as Jabrill Peppers said this

 

For those that can't watch, he said "That was a play that I recognized on tape, just had to play the proper technique and catch the ball."

Edited November 15, 2023 by Low Positive

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Let's be clear here:  Burrow has a total of 14 TD's and 6 INT's and 1 LOST FUMBLE.  I don't care about "fumbles" only lost fumbles.  Allen has 26 total TD's and 11 INT's and 3 lost fumbles.

 

So Burrow's TD/TO ration is a very good 2 and Allen's is an almost as good 1.85.  Anyway you slice the data the "Allen is a TO machine" narrative is way overblown.  BTW, Burrow's 2 BAD INT's in the 4th quarter against the Texans lost the Bengal's that game.  Allen's TO against Denver ere nowhere near as damaging or as bad.

 

But hey I'm an Allen apologist so hat do I know.

 

 

So they both recovered 1 fumble.

 

IMO I think just focusing on lost fumbles is not the best way to process the data.

 

Even if Allen managed to recover all his fumbles due to fortunate bounces it still points to issues with that simple QB/C exchange and usually means lost yards and a wasted down.

 

 

[DapperCam]

3 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

He should have been fired as soon as Jabrill Peppers said this

 

For those that can't watch, he said "That was a play that I recognized on tape, just had to play the proper technique and catch the ball."

Similarly Patrick Peterson broke down how he knew he would get the game winning INT in the Vikings game last year.

 

I never hear DBs say that they know the play and know they are going to get a pick. It's weird that it has happened twice.

[Low Positive]

Just now, DapperCam said:

Similarly Patrick Peterson broke down how he knew he would get the game winning INT in the Vikings game last year.

 

I never hear DBs say that they know the play and know they are going to get a pick. It's weird that it has happened twice.

That was actually more about Gabe Davis only having two routes.

[NoSaint]

What do y’all think Dorsey did with his day today?

[Maine-iac]

Defenses (the good ones) have caught up to Allen, and Mahommes, and Burrows.  They have to work harder and earn the big plays.  Against lesser defenses Josh will probably find the big plays like days of old but the better defenses he's going to have to take the underneath stuff and run the ball until they change out of shells and deep zones.  If he can't prove he's capable of hitting 5 yard crossers and chekcking it down for 5 or 6 he will continue to see less explosive plays and more turnovers.  Those "efficient throws" were there under Dorsey's system and Dorsey wasn't fired because there wasn't plays.  He was fired because 10 games into the season he still couldn't get Josh to take them.  Brady will have the same problem.  Either we learn to run the ball or take the easy throws until defenses come down and play them or we throw into coverage and turn the ball over.  This is the NFL and you either adapt or you become irrelevant.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, Bruffalo said:

This is fun.  Now do what % of offensive yards he was responsible for in 21 and 22.

 

Not much value in being myopic with data sans context.

 

Allen could take the team on an 80 yard drive, but if he throws it to the wrong jersey in the red zone it is rendered less meaningful.

 

In 2023 he has to play better hitting his receivers and stop turning over the ball.

 

Most folks are processing that watching the games without all that other baggage.

 

Will a new OC help him get back to that 21 early 22 form and better efficiency. That remains to be seen.

 

Not quite sure what you are defending.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by WideNine

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

What do y’all think Dorsey did with his day today?

I'm sure that the logistics of moving a family on really short notice is not an easy task. But you would have to think that he'll get out of town ASAP. I know that he'll be hate watching the Bills on Sunday.

[Maine-iac]

14 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

That was actually more about Gabe Davis only having two routes.

Interestingly Davis had 93 yards and a TD on him and if Josh doesn't fumble in the end zone Peterson never gets a game winning pick.

9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

What do y’all think Dorsey did with his day today?

Probably sat on the couch with a cup of coffee and shopped Zillow.

[Low Positive]

6 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Interestingly Davis had 93 yards and a TD on him and if Josh doesn't fumble in the end zone Peterson never gets a game winning pick.

I had it wrong. This is what he said. He knew the play by the formation

 

[folz]

Just a few things to note about Joe Brady's time in Carolina, for those who only look at team record to judge. Now I'm not saying any of this will or won't mean he does well in Buffalo, just trying to add some context:

 

In 2020:

-His first NFL OC job under a rookie head coach

-With post-injury Teddy Bridgewater at QB, Carolina had four players go over 1,000 yards from scrimmage (only 5th time a team did so in the Super Bowl era).

-RB Mike Davis, and Wide Receivers D.J. Moore, Robbie Anderson, and Curtis Samuel all had career years (each had the best year of their careers which they haven't matched since either).

-CMC only played 3 games this year due to injury.

-Bridgewater had the highest completion percentage and most passing yards of his career

-The Panthers set a franchise record for fewest punts in a season.

- 8 of their 11 loses were by 8 points or less. 5 of their loses were by 5 points or less.

-The Carolina defense set (negative) franchise records for the worst defensive 3rd down % and fewest interceptions in a season.

-Overall, the offense was 21st in yards per game (at 350 yards) and 24th in points per game (scoring an average of 22 points). 

 

Rankings and record weren't great, but you have to remember that Carolina's defense wasn't good (they were obviously on the field a lot as shown by the 3rd down % and the fact that they had two linebackers with more than 114 tackles each that year), and yet, Brady had 5 skill players on offense have the best years of their careers to that point or since. It seems that he had his guys playing at their best (even if their best couldn't match up with better teams).

 

In 2021:

-Curtis Samuel leaves for Washington (the team has no 3rd receiver behind Moore and Anderson, unless you count Brandon Zylstra's 250 yards). And Mike Davis leaves for Atlanta.

-CMC only plays 7 games due to injury.

-Sam Darnold is QB and a rookie Chubba Hubbard is your lead back for most of the year (with CMC out)

-TEs are Ian Thomas and Tommy Tremble 

-The Carolina defense did improve a bit in 2021

-Carolina fans were mad that the team didn't address the offensive line before the 2021 season (as they already weren't great in 2020). At the end of the season, the Panthers GM said that addressing the O-line in the offseason is now their #1 priority (ahead of their glaring QB need). So, obviously they were pretty poor.

-Offense fell to 29th in scoring and 30th in yards (and remember Brady was fired after week 12. He definitely had some clunkers of his own, but the team averaged 20 points per game for the first 12 with Brady and 14 points/game in the last 5 games without Brady).

 

And let's face it, outside of DJ Moore and CMC (for 7 games only), that offense had absolutely no talent, across the board, at every position. Hard to put that all on Brady.

 

 

Again, who knows if Brady will work out here or not...I just wanted to add some context to his time in Carolina for those who may not have looked into it.

[ngbills]

Brady has never been in the same place longer than two years...

[Dick_Cheney]

18 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

What do y’all think Dorsey did with his day today?

Looked at his bank account and had a hearty laugh.

[DapperCam]

18 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

What do y’all think Dorsey did with his day today?

Osteria 166 seems to be the spot

 

https://www.wkbw.com/news/whaley-murray-spotted-together-at-downtown-bar

[Bruffalo]

22 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Not much value in being myopic with data sans context.

 

 

Pot, meet kettle. 

 

You can't look at turnovers without factoring in offensive production. 

 

"In 2023 he has to play better hitting his receivers and stop turning over the ball."

 

The narrative that it's on Allen minimizes so much that's wrong about the Bills right now that it's laughable to focus on. 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

7 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

I had it wrong. This is what he said. He knew the play by the formation

 

Peterson knowing or not that was a horrible throw into coverage on 2nd down.   The throw was at least 5 yards short of where it should have been and the TE was open earlier. 

[ngbills]

Lost in the shuffle has been Chad Hall leaving. Not mentioned much anymore. 

[RobbRiddick]

 

 

Josh just looks and sounds so depressed right now. I'd love to know what the hell is going on behind the scenes. His whole body language and vocal tone sounds defeated

[BananaB]

1 minute ago, RobbRiddick said:

 

 

Josh just looks and sounds so depressed right now. I'd love to know what the hell is going on behind the scenes. His whole body language and vocal tone sounds defeated

Probably just a little more weight on his shoulders. Good game plan and quick success can change that. Doubt it will be easy though. 

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

 

 

Josh just looks and sounds so depressed right now. I'd love to know what the hell is going on behind the scenes. His whole body language and vocal tone sounds defeated

Somebody he knows are cares about just lost his job. 

[Bob Jones]

1 hour ago, BuffaloMatt said:

Thank you for agreeing that special teams coach screwed the pooch. 

Actually, like I said, they really should have had their defensive FG squad in place on 3rd down, because Denver was just killing time before kicking the FG, ssssooooo, the Head ball coach, Sean McClappy, should have made the decision and directed his FG squad to get out there for 3rd down, after the Bills used their final timeout. That would have been his call, NOT the STs coach. 😉 I highly doubt the STs coach can just make those types of decisions on his own. It’s 13 seconds part 2…the Head Coach needed to step up and override the STs coach.

 

As it actually happened, the Bills’ FG unit had to do a “Chinese Fire Drill” with the Dime Pkg players already on the field, as the clock was ticking down after Denver’s 3rd down kneel down. Please tell me, exactly, AT THAT POINT, how does the STs coach ensure that the proper 11 guys are out there!? 🤔

1 hour ago, DapperCam said:

Similarly Patrick Peterson broke down how he knew he would get the game winning INT in the Vikings game last year.

 

I never hear DBs say that they know the play and know they are going to get a pick. It's weird that it has happened twice.

That throw by JA17 was late AND BEHIND Davis, and that’s the primary reason why it was picked. That is clearly seen in the video.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Bob Jones