Stuck in the mud = Coaching & Lack of Talent

[PepeSilvia]

 think the root of the problem is that the roster isn’t as great as everyone thought it was. 
 

Besides Josh Allen and Diggs, defenses don’t have to game plan or fear anyone else.
 

we don’t have any other receiving options (Kincaid may get there) besides Diggs.
 

the zone defense was great for 5 years against average to below average teams. They have drafted high round, non-impactful pass rushers and in turn had to pay 140 million dollars to a 33 year old pass rusher to overcompensate.
 

hyde and poyer are showing their age

 

besides Matt Milano, who do offenses really game plan for?!

 

whenever this zone defense faces elite quarterbacks it gets shredded. This is nothing new and has been exposed over and over and over again. 
 

Everyone keeps saying we’re stuck in the mud, I think we’re lacking high end talent

[RyanC883]

it's a combo.  Bean has missed on numerous high round picks.  The Groot/Basham duo are particularly glaring.  Ignoring WR2 and the continual "hope" that a player improves is nonsensical.  

 

That said, McD can't coach himself out of a paper bag on game day against good teams.  The defensive timeouts, the lack of knowledge as to why the offense stops going up tempo (note to McD: you are the HC!), have held the team back more than the lack of talent.  

 

Even with this current team, we should have beat the Jets, Jags, and Cincy with better offensive playcalling--it's on both Dorsey and McD at this point. 

[juno999]

Bills oline struggles against good dlines and can't get run game going.  Then they rely on Allen too much to make things happen.  Too many dline picks and not enough oline picks.  Too many bad picks too.  Need a WR2 as well.  Kincaid is good and he'll get better.  I'm hoping Torrence plays better too.

[Airseven]

The offense is Allen, Kincaid, and Diggs (presumably). The defense is Milano (assuming he recovers), Oliver (due to contract), and Taron Johnson (by necessity). Then you can maybe toss in Bernard, Rousseau, and Torrence and hope they develop. Just about everyone else are free agents, potential cap casualties, or in desperate need of upgrade. 

[FilthyBeast]

I've said for some time that this roster has never been as great as some fans were led to believe. Lots of woefully average players and backups but very few stars. Top heavy and many of these said impact players are constantly hurt year after year.

 

This is why having the right GM entering a crucial roster reset/rebuild is critical and look no further than the Chiefs and the best GM in the NFL who executed a similar transition to perfection a few years ago when everyone though the Chiefs window was closing especially when they opted to traded away the best WR in the NFL. Not only did they hit on key draft picks finding multiple legit starters, they drafted some real stars/probowlers and won a SB with them last year when they were rookies/2nd year players.

 

 

[SCBills]

We have no game breakers up front on the DL.  It's a massive issue, and given the investment... unacceptable.

 

When everyone is healthy, we have a ton of above average/very good DL and it shows - as they are a menace when rushing together.

 

However, when one of them goes down to injury, the fact none of them can take over a game with any regularity is glaring. 

 

[Airseven]

The "top 5" roster proclamation that was championed here back in August was nutz.

[PBF81]

If we were getting the most that we could from this offense then the issue might be talent.  But this offense is nowhere near optimized.  

 

If Allen had predated McD, the odds of McD even making the short-list for HC would have been slim.  At least from someone that knew what they were doing in selecting a HC.  

 

We've got a lot of cart/horse stuff here.  McD hired before a GM.  GM clearly then coming from Carolina.  (just like McD's entire senior coaching staff, as if they were all the "best options" for the positions)  Then Allen being drafted while the offense was all but ignored while Mr. Defense and his GM toady catering to his FFL defensive methodologies.  

 

And if talent's in issue after 6 full drafts, the fire Beane.  

 

Again, if we had to build starting lineups from Beane's draft picks apart from Allen and to support Allen and the offense, here's what we have to work with:  

 

DL:  Oliver, AJE, Groot

 

LB:  Bernard, Williams

 

DB:  Johnson, Jackson, Benford, Elam

 

OL:  Brown, Torrence 

 

RB:  Cook

 

WR:  Davis, Shakir, Shorter 

 

TE:  Kincaid, Knox 

 

Good luck with that.  

 

Both talent and coaching are the issue.  And honestly, when your head coach has stated multiple times now that he is clueless as to what's wrong much less how to correct it, I mean seriously, what is Pegula waiting for!  

 

Imagine telling your boss that you have no idea how to do your job effectively.  SMH  

 

 

[Aimee75]

I don't understand why, when you have a QB like Josh Allen, you don't go out and at least TRY to put a super team around him. I feel like that should have been the goal since he was drafted, and once we went to the AFCCG and even the following year, getting SO close, but knowing we were missing pieces, why not just go all out? Look at how stubborn The Ravens org. was with Lamar. They finally get him some legit weapons and now they look like the best team in the AFC. Lamar was able to carry the team a bit due to sheer talent(when healthy) and they relied on him too much for that, but now he has pieces around him and they look unstoppable.

 

Speaking of The Ravens. I fear with the injuries we have this year, we are this seasons Ravens. Decimated by injuries and quite possibly not making the playoffs. Ugh!

[Figster]

The Bills have lost good coaching on both sides of the football in Daboll and Frazier and tried to fill the void with a QB coach and HC doing double duty.

 

I blame the Beane head...

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, Airseven said:

The "top 5" roster proclamation that was championed here back in August was nutz.

I mean, the last time we saw a healthier Bills team they tore apart Miami. But injuries are part of it so let’s see how they adjust. 

 

I’m not optimistic though.

[Low Positive]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I mean, the last time we saw a healthier Bills team they tore apart Miami. But injuries are part of it so let’s see how they adjust. 

 

I’m not optimistic though.

Injuries are not a part of it. The team that beat the Bills on Sunday has zero current significant injuries. KC has one. Baltimore has one. Jacksonville has zero. The teams that are currently playing well in the AFC have the fewest injuries. That is not a coincidence.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

Injuries are not a part of it. The team that beat the Bills on Sunday has zero current significant injuries. KC has one. Baltimore has one. Jacksonville has zero. The teams that are currently playing well in the AFC have the fewest injuries. That is not a coincidence.

Ravens had a ton of injuries to start the year. Only difference is those guys came back. Bills are definitely hit probably the worst of the winning teams. Even Allen is playing hurt.

[Low Positive]

31 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ravens had a ton of injuries to start the year. Only difference is those guys came back. Bills are definitely hit probably the worst of the winning teams. Even Allen is playing hurt.

Exactly. Injury luck is just as important as talent and coaching in winning a Superbowl. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

The Bills have lost good coaching on both sides of the football in Daboll and Frazier and tried to fill the void with a QB coach and HC doing double duty.

 

I blame the Beane head...

 

Beane?!? He has ZERO say in coaching decisions. ZERO. That is all McD and Terry.

[PepeSilvia]

2 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

Injuries are not a part of it. The team that beat the Bills on Sunday has zero current significant injuries. KC has one. Baltimore has one. Jacksonville has zero. The teams that are currently playing well in the AFC have the fewest injuries. That is not a coincidence.

 

What do the injuries on defense have to do with the fact that the offense had 7 pts total with 54 minutes left in 4 of the last 5 games.

 

take away their best game (Miami) and their worst game (pick any of the other 8 games) and that’s what they are. This isn’t just a this season problem. This started to show in the second half of last season.

 

Even when healthy, this defense gets exposed by elite quarterbacks and plays well against average to below average quarterbacks.

 

The roster even when healthy has holes and not enough impactful players that were drafted high. 

[Figster]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:00 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Beane?!? He has ZERO say in coaching decisions. ZERO. That is all McD and Terry.

To me in this article it sounds like the Bills GM is very much involved IMO.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/36960/who-replaces-brian-daboll-will-be-vital-decision-in-sean-mcdermotts-bills-tenure

 

If not, then perhaps he should be...

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/8/2023 at 8:32 AM, juno999 said:

Bills oline struggles against good dlines and can't get run game going.  Then they rely on Allen too much to make things happen.  Too many dline picks and not enough oline picks.  Too many bad picks too.  Need a WR2 as well.  Kincaid is good and he'll get better.  I'm hoping Torrence plays better too.

McDermott had 7 years to upgrade this OL.  Instead he dicked around with failed Defensive picks.  Basically he tells Josh "you'll have no run game or #2 wr and like it.  Go out there and do something heroic".  

[1onemangang7]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:34 PM, Figster said:

The Bills have lost good coaching on both sides of the football in Daboll and Frazier and tried to fill the void with a QB coach and HC doing double duty.

 

I blame the Beane head...

I think Beane also but not because of who is coaching.  Im glad Daboll is gone.  Dorsey is fine for Dabboll.  McDermott has done better than expected for what he has to work with on the defensive side, but that'll get worse in coming weeks. Everyone loved the Cook pick and this is what you get.  180 pound guy praised by fan boys as a top 5 rb and they keep putting him in the game.  Cincy used 2 spies on the qb. Without a run threat or even an attempt to wear defenses down you can hand pick your coordinator and it's still all on 17

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:10 PM, PepeSilvia said:

 think the root of the problem is that the roster isn’t as great as everyone thought it was. 
 

Besides Josh Allen and Diggs, defenses don’t have to game plan or fear anyone else.
 

we don’t have any other receiving options (Kincaid may get there) besides Diggs.
 

the zone defense was great for 5 years against average to below average teams. They have drafted high round, non-impactful pass rushers and in turn had to pay 140 million dollars to a 33 year old pass rusher to overcompensate.
 

hyde and poyer are showing their age

 

besides Matt Milano, who do offenses really game plan for?!

 

whenever this zone defense faces elite quarterbacks it gets shredded. This is nothing new and has been exposed over and over and over again. 
 

Everyone keeps saying we’re stuck in the mud, I think we’re lacking high end talent

 

We have high end talent on offense , the coaching staff is refusing to adjust and stick with concepts that are ineffective.

 

The defense is lacking talent but that is due to injuries and are holding up well enough.

 

The Tom Brady offense needs to go 

 

[Real McClappy]

O line is still not that good. What I don't see is anything that resembles a running game.  Not really talked about on this forum is the subtraction of Motor who was always shedding 1 tackle for a few yards a rip. His 1000+ all purpose yards in back to back years is missed on the Offense IMO.

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

O line is still not that good. What I don't see is anything that resembles a running game.  Not really talked about on this forum is the subtraction of Motor who was always shedding 1 tackle for a few yards a rip. His 1000+ all purpose yards in back to back years is missed on the Offense IMO.

 

 

That’s kind of a league wide issue this year imo…defenses have been dominating and ours is just missing too many impact players

 

lots of good teams have been winning ugly offensive games this year 

[Aussie Joe]

8 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

O line is still not that good. What I don't see is anything that resembles a running game.  Not really talked about on this forum is the subtraction of Motor who was always shedding 1 tackle for a few yards a rip. His 1000+ all purpose yards in back to back years is missed on the Offense IMO.

 

 

Not saying you are wrong … but the 2nd Round pick (Cook) last year was supposed to address Motor leaving right? 
 

He got paid too much for them to keep him 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Aussie Joe

[BananaB]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:21 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

McDermott had 7 years to upgrade this OL.  Instead he dicked around with failed Defensive picks.  Basically he tells Josh "you'll have no run game or #2 wr and like it.  Go out there and do something heroic".  

And to make sure he plays complimentary football

[HardyBoy]

On 11/8/2023 at 5:12 PM, PepeSilvia said:

 

What do the injuries on defense have to do with the fact that the offense had 7 pts total with 54 minutes left in 4 of the last 5 games.

 

take away their best game (Miami) and their worst game (pick any of the other 8 games) and that’s what they are. This isn’t just a this season problem. This started to show in the second half of last season.

 

Even when healthy, this defense gets exposed by elite quarterbacks and plays well against average to below average quarterbacks.

 

The roster even when healthy has holes and not enough impactful players that were drafted high. 

 

Starting field position is incredibly predictive of scoring points, so the defensive injuries are incredibly important context to understand why the offense might be struggling to score points. 

[dorquemada]

On 11/9/2023 at 9:21 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

McDermott had 7 years to upgrade this OL.  Instead he dicked around with failed Defensive picks.  Basically he tells Josh "you'll have no run game or #2 wr and like it.  Go out there and do something heroic".  

 

"Except not actually heroic.  Come to think of it 3 and out would really be more sporting of you, don't you think?"

[Real McClappy]

8 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Not saying you are wrong … but the 2nd Round pick (Cook) last year was supposed to address Motor leaving right? 
 

He got paid too much for them to keep him 

You are right on Cook being the replacement. Just a different skill set overall. Hopefully Lenny will fill that Aussie, we will see I guess. We need a back that can consistently move the chains when called upon for Dorsey to setup a proper running game that we lack.

[Billzgobowlin]

I'm really confused as to why people keep saying Poyer and Hyde are old.  Since when has a safety aged at 32?  Hyde has look as good as before, maybe Poyer isn't the same but doesn't look that bad.  They showed weakness on defense when Milano got injured

[BigAl2526]

My title would be Stuck in the Mud = Coaching + injuries.  I think the team has enough talent to be good, maybe even dominant.  The Bills will be entering the Denver game missing 45% of the starters they had on defense entering the season.  That is a tough loss to overcome.  I do think there have been coaching errors this season that have cost games.

[Eastport bills]

In full agreement about the coaching,  especially the OC, but you are underrating the offensive roster. They’re in a lull but with Cook, Kincaid, Davis, Shakir and an above average OL, they’re still a top 4 offense in the AFC.  I don’t understand, the Chiefs have been crap on offense statistically and in the eye test, but they’re defense is winning games and no one questions their offensive roster. My prediction, Bills get rolling Monday night and things calm down.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/8/2023 at 9:05 AM, Aimee75 said:

I don't understand why, when you have a QB like Josh Allen, you don't go out and at least TRY to put a super team around him. I feel like that should have been the goal since he was drafted, and once we went to the AFCCG and even the following year, getting SO close, but knowing we were missing pieces, why not just go all out? Look at how stubborn The Ravens org. was with Lamar. They finally get him some legit weapons and now they look like the best team in the AFC. Lamar was able to carry the team a bit due to sheer talent(when healthy) and they relied on him too much for that, but now he has pieces around him and they look unstoppable.

 

Speaking of The Ravens. I fear with the injuries we have this year, we are this seasons Ravens. Decimated by injuries and quite possibly not making the playoffs. Ugh!

This Bills season, minus Lamar getting injured, is definitely looking so very similar to what the Ravens experienced last season.  And as usual Josh is being told 3 different things while trying to heroically run an offense with 1 weapon. Stupid coaches.....

[Maine-iac]

3 hours ago, Real McNasty said:

You are right on Cook being the replacement. Just a different skill set overall. Hopefully Lenny will fill that Aussie, we will see I guess. We need a back that can consistently move the chains when called upon for Dorsey to setup a proper running game that we lack.

Same problem with Cook that we had with Singletary.  We have zero commitment to the running game.  It was worse when Motor was here.  We might have upped our average carries for a running back from sub 10 up to 12 or so but we still rarely run the ball as a way to win a game.  In many cases we don't even run enough to set up passing either.  We spread the field and let Josh run around until someone gets open or he breaks a run.  Why else would a team be able to commit two guys to spying on our QB other than they aren't worried about our running game or coverage.

[PepeSilvia]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

That’s kind of a league wide issue this year imo…defenses have been dominating and ours is just missing too many impact players

 

lots of good teams have been winning ugly offensive games this year 

Again I will ask…what do our defensive injuries have to do with the offense having 7 pts total, 54 minutes into 5 out of the last 6 games?

5 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

My title would be Stuck in the Mud = Coaching + injuries.  I think the team has enough talent to be good, maybe even dominant.  The Bills will be entering the Denver game missing 45% of the starters they had on defense entering the season.  That is a tough loss to overcome.  I do think there have been coaching errors this season that have cost games.

Again I will ask…what do our defensive injuries have to do with the offense having 7 pts total, 54 minutes into 5 out of the last 6 games?

16 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

We have high end talent on offense , the coaching staff is refusing to adjust and stick with concepts that are ineffective.

 

The defense is lacking talent but that is due to injuries and are holding up well enough.

 

The Tom Brady offense needs to go 

 

Again I will ask…what do our defensive injuries have to do with the offense having 7 pts total, 54 minutes into 5 out of the last 6 games?

Edited November 13, 2023 by PepeSilvia

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

11 minutes ago, PepeSilvia said:

Again I will ask…what do our defensive injuries have to do with the offense having 7 pts total, 54 minutes into 5 out of the last 6 games?

Again I will ask…what do our defensive injuries have to do with the offense having 7 pts total, 54 minutes into 5 out of the last 6 games?

Offense has been a struggle league wide is what I’m saying. We are far from the only team experiencing offensive struggles but the good teams are finding other ways to win when it happens.  I’m not trying to absolve the offense of all their shortcomings just providing some context 

 

defensive struggles are a lot more interrelated with the offensive success than you’re letting on for sure also.  We are forcing little to no turnovers and starting almost exclusively in bad field position on offense because our defense can’t get off the field 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Meatloaf63]

18 hours ago, 1onemangang7 said:

I think Beane also but not because of who is coaching.  Im glad Daboll is gone.  Dorsey is fine for Dabboll.  McDermott has done better than expected for what he has to work with on the defensive side, but that'll get worse in coming weeks. Everyone loved the Cook pick and this is what you get.  180 pound guy praised by fan boys as a top 5 rb and they keep putting him in the game.  Cincy used 2 spies on the qb. Without a run threat or even an attempt to wear defenses down you can hand pick your coordinator and it's still all on 17

If a OC. Can’t scheme how to beat a D that’s wasting two men spying on a Qb who doesn’t even run anymore, how sad is that?

[ganesh]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:40 AM, PepeSilvia said:

 think the root of the problem is that the roster isn’t as great as everyone thought it was. 
 

Besides Josh Allen and Diggs, defenses don’t have to game plan or fear anyone else.
 

we don’t have any other receiving options (Kincaid may get there) besides Diggs.
 

the zone defense was great for 5 years against average to below average teams. They have drafted high round, non-impactful pass rushers and in turn had to pay 140 million dollars to a 33 year old pass rusher to overcompensate.
 

hyde and poyer are showing their age

 

besides Matt Milano, who do offenses really game plan for?!

 

whenever this zone defense faces elite quarterbacks it gets shredded. This is nothing new and has been exposed over and over and over again. 
 

Everyone keeps saying we’re stuck in the mud, I think we’re lacking high end talent

That is the sad part.  They kept investing in the defense and ignoring the offense...and the defense has down the drain minus of MIlano and Oliver.

[1onemangang7]

12 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

If a OC. Can’t scheme how to beat a D that’s wasting two men spying on a Qb who doesn’t even run anymore, how sad is 

Right. Give him a back that teams get tired of tackling and dorsey would make Anarumo adjust. I'm sure Dorsey is handcuffed to give the little guy a number of snaps but you notice he's not on the field when they have to score or it's over. This isn't Dorsey. 

[1onemangang7]

If anyone should be getting abused by the fans, and he should definitely hear it or you accept Allen as your entertainment, it's clearly Beane. Elam and Cook came after 13 seconds and you just bust on the draft. Then it sounds like the TE was to soothe Allen. Does he want to win or try to have a little flash and really doesn't worry about the win part. Bills fans will never quit. 

[gonzo1105]

We are definitely not as talented as people perceive us to be. I think that is the biggest thing. We have some really good players but few difference makers(Allen, Diggs, Milano). There are some other guys who can get there but haven't reached that peak yet. Miller used to be a difference maker but obviously the knee isn't 100%.