Would you be for "Eye in the Sky" officiating?

[Royale with Cheese]

Penalties comes from a box upstairs from cameras at several different angles.

 

The on field officials control the flow of the game.

 

Is this the only way to really eliminate human error judgement?  Bad vision angles and being in the middle of the speed of the game makes it difficult.  I've done it at the HS level and I can understand why these guys make mistakes....its tougher than you think and the NFL players move much faster.  There is so much more to look at and try to focus on than what the TV broadcast view shows.

 

Still, the officiating isn't good in the NFL.  What would be your suggestions?

 

[boyst]

There used to be the eye in the sky used more often. Now it's not so much. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Penalties comes from a box upstairs from cameras at several different angles.

 

The on field officials control the flow of the game.

 

Is this the only way to really eliminate human error judgement?  Bad vision angles and being in the middle of the speed of the game makes it difficult.  I've done it at the HS level and I can understand why these guys make mistakes....its tougher than you think and the NFL players move much faster.  There is so much more to look at and try to focus on than what the TV broadcast view shows.

 

Still, the officiating isn't good in the NFL.  What would be your suggestions?

 

 

When it works out for us. Not in games like vs the Bucs and Giants though when we got away with PI's. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Yep, or even AI

[BuffaloBillyG]

I don't know what the answer should be, but eye in the sky seems like it would disrupt the game flow. Imaging trying to run a no huddle and refs on the field trying to give the video official time to buzz in or review a possible holding call. 

 

One thing I DO wish is that the NFL was more transparent. One of the other leagues...think it was XFL...would cut to the replay officials so you could see them review a play in real time and hear what they are looking at. Same should be done for those discussions after a flag is thrown. Let's hear WHY they see these flags or not. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by BuffaloBillyG

[0017]

I’d be ok with Ai officials, take the emotion right out of it. I really think the officials have massive egos and want to be a part of the entertainment. 

[PatsFanNH]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Penalties comes from a box upstairs from cameras at several different angles.

 

The on field officials control the flow of the game.

 

Is this the only way to really eliminate human error judgement?  Bad vision angles and being in the middle of the speed of the game makes it difficult.  I've done it at the HS level and I can understand why these guys make mistakes....its tougher than you think and the NFL players move much faster.  There is so much more to look at and try to focus on than what the TV broadcast view shows.

 

Still, the officiating isn't good in the NFL.  What would be your suggestions?

 

IMO I rather the refs just called penalties that affect the play or with the spirit of the rule. For example the incidental Facemask to Facemask touch that happened last night isn’t called. I think more common sense and god a lot less flags need to happen. The flags ruin the flow and enjoyment of the game.

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I don't know what the answer should be, but eye in the sky seems like it would disrupt the game flow. Imaging trying to run a no huddle and refs on the field trying to give the video official time to buzz in or review a possible holding call. 

 

One thing I DO wish is that the NFL was more transparent. One of the other leagues...think it was XFL...would cut to the replay officials so you could see them review a play in real time and hear what they are looking at. Same should be done for those discussions after a flag is thrown. Let's hear WHY they see these flags or not. 

 

I should have been more specific.

 

There are officials in the booth watching the play live and not reviewing after the play.  They get specific perfect angles in all 3 levels.

Just now, PatsFanNH said:

IMO I rather the refs just called penalties that affect the play or with the spirit of the rule. For example the incidental Facemask to Facemask touch that happened last night isn’t called. I think more common sense and god a lot less flags need to happen. The flags ruin the flow and enjoyment of the game.

 

The one thing that really sucks is every single time we have a big play or score, I immediately look for flags before I start celebrating.  It's a delayed celebration for me.

[PatsFanNH]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

.

 

The one thing that really sucks is every single time we have a big play or score, I immediately look for flags before I start celebrating.  It's a delayed celebration for me.

Hey at least your team is good, every time a big play happens for mine I am expecting the flag this year.. I’m like “ok what did they do wrong now..”

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Yep, or even AI

As someone who writes AI scripts, we are not at the point where it could be used in a live game. Too much nuance. 

For example, you could set to calculate contact/distance in relation to the ball on PI, but it would be hard to have it understand the difference between minor hand checking and a foul. It would also take incredible computing power to do in real-time.
 

There would also be holding called on the offensive line every play. 

Baseball is easy, because it is simply tracking one object against a pre-defined strike zone of minor variance in heights.

[Livinginthepast]

Just give coaches a challenge on penalties. 1 per half. If they are wrong lose a time out. The last thing you want is upstairs calling penalties. There could be a penalty on every down.

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

IMO I rather the refs just called penalties that affect the play

I share this opinion with you.

If DB2 is holding on the left side of the field and the QB never even looked that direction on a quick out to the right, does that really need to be called? In my opinion - no.

If a player minorly grabs a facemask when the ball carrier is already 3/4 of the way to the ground, does that really need to be called? Again, in my opinion - no.

Call fouls in instances that affect what happened on that play.

[Warcodered]

I think it's tough because while everybody would obviously want the calls to get made right all the time they also want the right level of flexibility that avoids just a bunch of ticky tack calls being made all the time.

[GoBills808]

Generally no

 

It's a game played by imperfect humans meant to be officiated by those same humans imo

[ddaryl]

the game needs consistency from a referee stand point. Technology will be introduced in the next few years IMO

[Bangarang]

I still prefer guys in their 60’s making judgement calls. I also like seeing out of shape people bringing out two poles attached to a 10 yard chain to see if there was a 1st down. 

[dorquemada]

I've been saying for years that we could absolutely develop an AI driven video analytics platform that could do a much better job than the human refs.  Even if all the platform did is inform the refs that there had been a penalty so they could throw the flag and keep all the ritual involved

 

The current state of officiating is so bad right now that one could argue that the NFL is entertainment, not sport

[Big Turk]

You could call penalties on literally every play...that would be taking it too far and penalties would be getting called far too frquently.

[Mango]

I want there to be a play clock buzzer like a shot clock in basketball. 

It is such a weird antiquated process at the moment. 

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Generally no

 

It's a game played by imperfect humans meant to be officiated by those same humans imo

 

This is the way I feel.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

This is the way I feel.  

Then stop asking me questions you already know the answer to

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Then stop asking me questions you already know the answer to

 

You're not the only one I'm seeing.

[Mango]

I think coaches should have unlimited challenges as long as they win it. Keep it at 2 challenge loses that is fine. But if the coaches throw 6 flags that all get overturned that is on the refs/the league. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

As someone who writes AI scripts, we are not at the point where it could be used in a live game. Too much nuance. 

For example, you could set to calculate contact/distance in relation to the ball on PI, but it would be hard to have it understand the difference between minor hand checking and a foul. It would also take incredible computing power to do in real-time.
 

There would also be holding called on the offensive line every play. 

Baseball is easy, because it is simply tracking one object against a pre-defined strike zone of minor variance in heights.

Apparently my AI guys are better than yours then 😂 … not everything of course, but certain things… down, distance, first downs, TD or not, illegal formations/man downfield, fumble?, completions/incompletions, face masks. 
 

I suppose it would make it all harder to rig though 😝 

[NewEra]

I’ve been asking for it for years, although I wouldn’t want on field officials just for game flow.  I think they should be able to throw flags too.  They should communicate the infraction in their mic and the eye in the sky can take a quick look to see if it’s legit, while also allowing the eye to throw flags on egregious penalties that were missed.

 

ot becomes touchy because we don’t want too many penalties called.  We just want legit penalties called correctly. Less mistakes.  The ability to overrule terrible calls or throw a flag on egregious missed calls

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Apparently my AI guys are better than yours then 😂

 

I would like to see your prototype, if you're serious.
 

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

down, distance, first downs, TD or not

 

This is already possible, but it is just tracking technology. Not what most would consider AI, though I guess one could consider any computer an artificial intelligence. 
 

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

illegal formations/man downfield, fumble?, completions/incompletions, face masks. 

These would be significantly more difficult. 

For example: How does the AI determine that the face mask was grabbed and pulled, rather than simply grazed? How does the AI know if the knee was down (this requires elevation, rather than simply distance) or if the referees whistle was blown prior to the ball coming out on fumble? 

That doesnt even get into latency, snow, error handling, etc. We are talking 1,000+ TFLOPS (with error).

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Generally no

 

It's a game played by imperfect humans meant to be officiated by those same humans imo

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

This is the way I feel.  

 

My heart agrees with this, and that it's better for the game. I dont want robots calling Holding on every play.

 

But man, the officiating lately has been killing me. To the point that I get frustrated seeing the refs so often even when it's against the other team. Just let them play.

 

I think the answer is full time refs doing more group work to get calls more consistent.

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, PatsFanNH said:

IMO I rather the refs just called penalties that affect the play or with the spirit of the rule. For example the incidental Facemask to Facemask touch that happened last night isn’t called. I think more common sense and god a lot less flags need to happen. The flags ruin the flow and enjoyment of the game.

This is the reason I worry about the eye in the sky and/or AI.

 

As the old adage says "there's holding on every play".  Refs can be brutal but I get the feeling unless there was a way of policing it with some sort of tolerance, there will be a flag on every other, if not every, play.

 

If the eye in the sky is watching real time every individual player to see things and that's all, I think it could work.  Giving them replay and slow-mo before the next play happens and then a flag comes in would absolutely kill the game and also take 5 hours to play.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

My heart agrees with this, and that it's better for the game. I dont want robots calling Holding on every play.

 

But man, the officiating lately has been killing me. To the point that I get frustrated seeing the refs so often even when it's against the other team. Just let them play.

 

I think the answer is full time refs doing more group work to get calls more consistent.

robots calling holding would be a great name for a band

[Process]

An eye in the sky is needed but to be overturning bad calls, not calling more penalties. 

 

The NFL has a flag problem. So many games I've watched this year were terrible because there were flags on every other play. 

 

Defensive holding and illegal contact calls specifically are something that need to get fixed. It's getting our of control. These are huge penalties that are being called way too often. Unless it's egregious we shouldn't be gifting offenses free first downs. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

49 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I would like to see your prototype, if you're serious.
 

 

This is already possible, but it is just tracking technology. Not what most would consider AI, though I guess one could consider any computer an artificial intelligence. 
 

These would be significantly more difficult. 

For example: How does the AI determine that the face mask was grabbed and pulled, rather than simply grazed? How does the AI know if the knee was down (this requires elevation, rather than simply distance) or if the referees whistle was blown prior to the ball coming out on fumble? 

That doesnt even get into latency, snow, error handling, etc. We are talking 1,000+ TFLOPS (with error).

With a screen name like Einstein you are bit of a nay sayer …. This is devolving into a work conversation.. Instead of telling me what you can’t do, let’s start talking about how we can. 
 

just because it’s hard doesn’t mean we can’t do it. 

There must be billions of minutes of video to train the AI/ML model. I’m going to start the prototype this weekend after basketball carpool.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Instead of telling me what you can’t do, let’s start talking about how we can.

We can't (with current technology). You can't simply "train" a model to know when a 3d object such as fingers grasp onto a facemask (rather than graze) in real time. You would need a 3D convolutional neural network that receives data from a LIDAR-type 3D camera producing volumes of data that can differentiate between individual fingers and the material of the facemask from multiple directions. It then has to compute this in real-time, billions of computations per second. I

We are hoping that future advancements will enable the ability for us to do exactly what you are requesting. Maybe in another 10 years or so.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 minutes ago, Einstein said:

We can't (with current technology). You can't simply "train" a model to know when a 3d object such as fingers grasp onto a facemask (rather than graze) in real time. You would need a 3D convolutional neural network that receives data from a LIDAR-type 3D camera producing volumes of data that can differentiate between individual fingers and the material of the facemask from multiple directions. It then has to compute this in real-time, billions of computations per second. I

We are hoping that future advancements will enable the ability for us to do exactly what you are requesting. Maybe in another 10 years or so.

Ok if  just make grazing the face mask a penalty too- did we avoid any cost or development timeline? 

[Einstein]

14 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Ok if  just make grazing the face mask a penalty too- did we avoid any cost or development timeline? 

Likely not, because we then have to develop an error system that avoid flagging every single time an o-linemen grazes a d-linemens facemask while blocking (happens nearly every play).

The system will need an incredible amount of redundancy. 

[Herc11]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Penalties comes from a box upstairs from cameras at several different angles.

 

The on field officials control the flow of the game.

 

Is this the only way to really eliminate human error judgement?  Bad vision angles and being in the middle of the speed of the game makes it difficult.  I've done it at the HS level and I can understand why these guys make mistakes....its tougher than you think and the NFL players move much faster.  There is so much more to look at and try to focus on than what the TV broadcast view shows.

 

Still, the officiating isn't good in the NFL.  What would be your suggestions?

 

 

Two things here. The NFL already picks and chooses when New York wants to chime in and correct penalties. It's absurd how they do it, there's no rhyme or reason to when or if they do it. Second, I think something like this on every game would lead to an over-correction. There's penalties on almost every play and if there were people who's job it was to focus on penalties with video of several angles, the game flow would be beyond terrible. 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Generally no

 

It's a game played by imperfect humans meant to be officiated by those same humans imo

Cool....imperfect results 

[Freddie's Dead]

No. ***** took away our TD at the start of the 2nd half in Houston. 

[boco357]

I joked they only use it when Vegas calls.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

9 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Penalties comes from a box upstairs from cameras at several different angles.

 

The on field officials control the flow of the game.

 

Is this the only way to really eliminate human error judgement?  Bad vision angles and being in the middle of the speed of the game makes it difficult.  I've done it at the HS level and I can understand why these guys make mistakes....its tougher than you think and the NFL players move much faster.  There is so much more to look at and try to focus on than what the TV broadcast view shows.

 

Still, the officiating isn't good in the NFL.  What would be your suggestions?

 

 

I don't about the sky, but I'd like to see an official up in a man list 20 feet high that goes up and down the sideline aligned with the LOS. Preferably one on each sideline.  There'd have to be some safety involved that the list driver doesn't run over a player or two.

[Low Positive]

Sports officiating has a lot of judgement calls. But ball and strikes in baseball should be automated. Line calls in tennis are now to no i’ll effect. Maybe false start/Offside could be automated, but if AI was used to call offensive holding QBs would be killed.