The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[4merper4mer]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

and yes that final 3rd down play was officially logged as a drop by Pro Football Reference.

 

 

 

Appeal to authority.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Ok I don’t know football terminology like you do so that’s probably where our disconnect is. I’ll explain what I am calling a draw. Shot gun. Allen takes the snap and runs over to standing still Cook and gives him the ball. That play has been run a ton. Not just 3 times. It hasn’t been as good as the handoffs we’ve seen this week and also some of last week. 

Right, we’ve run that action with multiple run concepts this year (draw, inside zone, dart, GH counter) and it’s been successful out of specifically the gap scheme stuff more so than the zone/draw. The timing on it on the gap scheme stuff looks really good which is probably why they’ve stuck with it there and moved away from it on the zone scheme stuff.

[Livinginthepast]

9 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

The problem with most of those is that they're one off deals. You can use them for a game, but then can't come back to them for a while because everyone will prepare for them. I'd much rather see us lean more into motioning for misdirection. We do some of it already, but nowhere near at the clip that the Dolphins or 49ers are.

Sure I get that, but they're not doing ANY of this stuff at all in games and the misdirection plays also seem to be at a minimum. Deception and disguise seem to have evaporated the from the playcalling. The question is why?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

This why I laugh at these threads. The same stuff said about Dorsey was said about Daboll. OC is the most hated coach on every team.

 

This is a chart on 2nd down and long pass rate. The major complaint about Dorsey it seems. Look at this chart from late 2021 with Daboll calling plays. Bills had one of the lowest 2nd and long pass rates in the NFL.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said:

Sure I get that, but they're not doing ANY of this stuff at all in games and the misdirection plays also seem to be at a minimum. Deception and disguise seem to have evaporated the from the playcalling. The question is why?

Touchdown Harty!!!!

[Low Positive]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

OC is the most hated coach on every team.

 

 

This is so true. I like to look at other good teams' boards to take the temperature of their fans. Bengals fans are livid at Zac Taylor and his vanilla offense after a win because their offense only scored 17 points and only had 3 points in the second half. Niners fans are angry at Shanahan for poor clock management and think that this is why they'll never win a SB with him. Eagles fans want to fire the OC because the offense is "boring." Ravens fans are currently in an active debate on whether their new OC is any better than Roman. Lions fans, to be fair, are a pretty giddy bunch right now. 

 

As a side note, TBD is one of the most active message boards in the NFL. 

[nedboy7]

At least this makes more sense than the fire McD thread.  

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Ok I don’t know football terminology like you do so that’s probably where our disconnect is. I’ll explain what I am calling a draw. Shot gun. Allen takes the snap and runs over to standing still Cook and gives him the ball. That play has been run a ton. Not just 3 times. It hasn’t been as good as the handoffs we’ve seen this week and also some of last week. 

 

There's some good explanations here:
https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/06/21/draw/

https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/05/10/duo-concept/
https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/06/07/inside-zone/

 

To my understanding (and I feel certain I shall be set right if I'm mistaken 😃), the distinction with a "draw play" is the whole set up of the play is designed to "draw" the defense into defending a pass play.  It's sort of the reverse of play action (where the set up is to look like a run, but then pass).  This is done by having the OLmen in a pass set for blocking,  the QB take the snap and act as if it's a pass play (either from under center or shotgun), the RB scan as though he's gonna be pass blocking and oh yeah, take the handoff and run. 

 

It's not a necessary feature of a draw play to have a QB in shotgun - a draw can be run from under center - nor is it necessary to have the QB take the snap in shotgun and hand the ball off to a stationary RB.  In fact, I think in a draw play the RB would usually move towards the QB and try to "sell" as though he's scanning in pass pro, although that usually wouldn't mean "building up steam" as in an undisguised run play.

 

Anyway, a key difference identifying a draw (again to my understanding) is how the OL is setting up their blocks and what are their blocking assignments, which explains why to a lot of observers, the distinction between a draw play and other run plays is obscure.  That's also what @HoofHearted and @GoBills808 and others are talking about when they bring up DUO, ISO, Inside zone, etc. - they're talking about the blocking sets and assignments

It's part of the confusion of learning about run plays in football that there's terminology that applies to the back or backs (blast, counter, slant, pitch, reverse, off-tackle) and terminology that applies to the run blocking scheme, and then slang terms that apply to the combination of what the back does and what the blockers do.

 

But all run plays from shotgun where the RB does not run towards the QB for a handoff are for sure, not draws.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This why I laugh at these threads. The same stuff said about Dorsey was said about Daboll. OC is the most hated coach on every team.

 

This is a chart on 2nd down and long pass rate. The major complaint about Dorsey it seems. Look at this chart from late 2021 with Daboll calling plays. Bills had one of the lowest 2nd and long pass rates in the NFL.

 

 

 

 

I know this isn't the point you're making (I take that point to be: people are looking at "Daboll as OC" with rose-colored, revisionist glasses when many of the same complaints were raised in real time).  Valid point, IMO.

 

But I find this chart puzzling.  Being a simple little beck running downhill over the rocks, seems to me if running on 2nd and long is "shooting themselves in the foot", you would think that the teams who do it a lot are bad, and the teams who don't do it are good.

 

But when we look at playoff standings, we see that the Titans (a few steps up from the bottom) and Bills (near the bottom) were high in the standings.  Tampa and the Cowboys, who top the chart, were high in the standings, but the Panthers (#2 on the chart) sucked, and other teams near the top (Seattle, the Jets) were mediocre that year.

 

So I'm kind of wondering if this "run on 2nd and long" is as overall detrimental to the whole point of offense (winning) as the tweet implies.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I know this isn't the point you're making (I take that point to be: people are looking at "Daboll as OC" with rose-colored, revisionist glasses when many of the same complaints were raised in real time).  Valid point, IMO.

 

But I find this chart puzzling.  Being a simple little beck running downhill over the rocks, seems to me if running on 2nd and long is "shooting themselves in the foot", you would think that the teams who do it a lot are bad, and the teams who don't do it are good.

 

But when we look at playoff standings, we see that the Titans (a few steps up from the bottom) and Bills (near the bottom) were high in the standings.  Tampa and the Cowboys, who top the chart, were high in the standings, but the Panthers (#2 on the chart) sucked, and other teams near the top (Seattle, the Jets) were mediocre that year.

 

So I'm kind of wondering if this "run on 2nd and long" is as overall detrimental to the whole point of offense (winning) as the tweet implies.

Probably a multitude of factors. How often you’re in 2nd and long and also how successful you are on 3rd downs.

I think the Bills run on a 2nd and long mostly because the defensive look calls for a run and they’re trying to pop a nice run. I don’t really hate these calls, it’s more about the situation for me. I think there’s been 1-2 times I threw my hands up screaming WHY!

[Beck Water]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Probably a multitude of factors. How often you’re in 2nd and long and also how successful you are on 3rd downs.

I think the Bills run on a 2nd and long mostly because the defensive look calls for a run and they’re trying to pop a nice run. I don’t really hate these calls, it’s more about the situation for me. I think there’s been 1-2 times I threw my hands up screaming WHY!

 

It's just sort of a peeve of mine about the analytics trend fueled by the popularity of Fantasy Football. 

 

People come up with all sorts of stats, and pronounce "this good, that bad" without looking carefully at whether it's positively and tightly correlated to meaningful sorts of success (scoring points, winning games).  So yeah, I bet you're right, there are a couple of other factors that, if combined with this stat, would correlate neatly with success, but by itself, it doesn't look as though it means too much.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[HoofHearted]

3 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Sure I get that, but they're not doing ANY of this stuff at all in games and the misdirection plays also seem to be at a minimum. Deception and disguise seem to have evaporated the from the playcalling. The question is why?

I'd say the misdirection stuff has been on par with what we got out of Daboll.

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

What prevented Allen from throwing the ball higher?  What prevents you from expecting more from Allen like you do from Knox?

 

You do realize that people have answered that very point for you, more than once?  What is your understanding of the explanation that has been offered?

'cuz I see no point in reiterating without at least understanding what has/hasn't gotten through

 

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Incorrect use of ad hominem.  I called the posts irrational and insane, which they were, I did not call the posters that.  Just sayin.

 

Appeal denied.  Distinction without a difference in this context

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[BufBills83]

So I'm wondering, for real, does anyone really have a legitimate, convincing reason why Dorsey should be fired?  Like I get the hate for the 2nd and long draw plays out of shotgun or the occasional bad play call here or there.  Everyone has those, that isn't a reason to fire someone.  From most of what I have watched and read, analysts and former players like what Dorsey is doing.  Some posters on here do too.  We're top 5 or 6 in scoring.  I feel like I know more than the average football fan as far as X's and O's, but I could not give you any good reason to fire Dorsey that would make sense.  That's above my pay grade.

 

So is it basically people want him fired because he runs draws on 2nd and 15?  Or does anyone have something on a deeper level?

[4merper4mer]

11 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You do realize that people have answered that very point for you, more than once?  What is your understanding of the explanation that has been offered?

'cuz I see no point in reiterating without at least understanding what has/hasn't gotten through

 

 

Appeal denied.  Distinction without a difference in this context

 

Deny the appeal all you want.  You’re still wrong but deny away.

[Starr Almighty]

1 hour ago, nedboy7 said:

At least this makes more sense than the fire McD thread.  

There is some truth to this until I remind you he hired the unqualified OC

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Starr Almighty

[4merper4mer]

5 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

There is some truth to this until I remind you he hired the unqualified OC

 

Another data point on which the 17th rail needs to be held blameless.  He publicly advocated for Dorsey but now McDermott must go for hiring Dorsey.  

[starrymessenger]

27 minutes ago, BufBills83 said:

So I'm wondering, for real, does anyone really have a legitimate, convincing reason why Dorsey should be fired?  Like I get the hate for the 2nd and long draw plays out of shotgun or the occasional bad play call here or there.  Everyone has those, that isn't a reason to fire someone.  From most of what I have watched and read, analysts and former players like what Dorsey is doing.  Some posters on here do too.  We're top 5 or 6 in scoring.  I feel like I know more than the average football fan as far as X's and O's, but I could not give you any good reason to fire Dorsey that would make sense.  That's above my pay grade.

 

So is it basically people want him fired because he runs draws on 2nd and 15?  Or does anyone have something on a deeper level?

Its because the O grossly underperforms at least as frequently as it fires on all cylinders. Dorsey.needs to find some consistently because without that you have no chance of winning a championship. 

[The Red King]

Dorsey shows the same issue that Frasier did on the other side of the ball, the inability to adjust.  Dorsey can make good schemes and when it works, it is wonderful to see.  The problem is, if an opponent shuts it down he is either unable or very slow to adjust.  That will cost them dearly against quality defenses that manage to figure us out.

 

It's like running into a brick wall.  Most of us would stop and find a way around.  Dorsey just keeps ramming into it.

[Westside]

52 minutes ago, BufBills83 said:

So I'm wondering, for real, does anyone really have a legitimate, convincing reason why Dorsey should be fired?  Like I get the hate for the 2nd and long draw plays out of shotgun or the occasional bad play call here or there.  Everyone has those, that isn't a reason to fire someone.  From most of what I have watched and read, analysts and former players like what Dorsey is doing.  Some posters on here do too.  We're top 5 or 6 in scoring.  I feel like I know more than the average football fan as far as X's and O's, but I could not give you any good reason to fire Dorsey that would make sense.  That's above my pay grade.

 

So is it basically people want him fired because he runs draws on 2nd and 15?  Or does anyone have something on a deeper level?

He runs the shotgun draw over and over and over and are lucky if they gain three yards. When I can sit at home and watch the game knowing when a draw play is coming, I’m sure the defense does also. It’s played out, at least if they run that play, don’t use our smallest back for it. Put in Murray who can pound the line. 
Dorseys play calling is very easily readable by opposing defenses.

 

[The Red King]

The other issue is that Dorsey continues to try and ram our players into his schemes, rather then design schemes around our players.  Hines was misused (or not used) last season, Kincaid is being misused (or not used) this season.  Beane brings in quality players that Dorsey just refuses to use b/c they don't fit his scheme.

[4merper4mer]

35 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Its because the O grossly underperforms at least as frequently as it fires on all cylinders. Dorsey.needs to find some consistently because without that you have no chance of winning a championship. 

3rd most points scored in the NFL.  Clearly he stinks and will be easy to replace.

[starrymessenger]

24 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

3rd most points scored in the NFL.  Clearly he stinks and will be easy to replace.

Right. We're fantastic.

As far as getting to the bottom of things you post reminds me of those that cited the stats showing how Frazier's D was the best ever.  Well let's just hope that the playoffs just happen to be "on" days for Dorsey & Co. 

[The Red King]

16, 38, 37, 48, 20 and 14.  As I said, when it works, it's great.  When it doesn't he can't adjust.  We've either scored 37+ or 20-, nothing between 21-36.  That's telling.

[Draconator]

I see two possible scenarios at play here. 

 

1 - Dorsey called great games against the Raiders, Commanders, and Dolphins. Now granted, he's had two off games. Is it that defensive coordinators have figured out what Dorsey has done against the Raiders, Commanders, and Dolphins, and schemed against those tendencies? And the coaches SURROUNDING Dorsey haven't given input to help Dorsey adjust?  I mean, Dorsey has a lot of experience around him. 

 

Or, 2 - Are those coaches indeed giving Dorsey input, and he's too stubborn-headed to adjust?  McDermott has shown he can adjust the defense in-game. Something in the offensive coaching box isn't doing the same. 

[Starr Almighty]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Another data point on which the 17th rail needs to be held blameless.  He publicly advocated for Dorsey but now McDermott must go for hiring Dorsey.  

I like McDermott and don't necessarily want him to go. I'm just saying there are certain areas that he has to take the blame. If he fixes these areas, I'm fine with him staying. But if he wants to act like nothing is wrong like he did with Frazier. We may have to move on.

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

There's some good explanations here:
https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/06/21/draw/

https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/05/10/duo-concept/
https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/06/07/inside-zone/

 

To my understanding (and I feel certain I shall be set right if I'm mistaken 😃), the distinction with a "draw play" is the whole set up of the play is designed to "draw" the defense into defending a pass play.  It's sort of the reverse of play action (where the set up is to look like a run, but then pass).  This is done by having the OLmen in a pass set for blocking,  the QB take the snap and act as if it's a pass play (either from under center or shotgun), the RB scan as though he's gonna be pass blocking and oh yeah, take the handoff and run. 

 

It's not a necessary feature of a draw play to have a QB in shotgun - a draw can be run from under center - nor is it necessary to have the QB take the snap in shotgun and hand the ball off to a stationary RB.  In fact, I think in a draw play the RB would usually move towards the QB and try to "sell" as though he's scanning in pass pro, although that usually wouldn't mean "building up steam" as in an undisguised run play.

 

Anyway, a key difference identifying a draw (again to my understanding) is how the OL is setting up their blocks and what are their blocking assignments, which explains why to a lot of observers, the distinction between a draw play and other run plays is obscure.  That's also what @HoofHearted and @GoBills808 and others are talking about when they bring up DUO, ISO, Inside zone, etc. - they're talking about the blocking sets and assignments

It's part of the confusion of learning about run plays in football that there's terminology that applies to the back or backs (blast, counter, slant, pitch, reverse, off-tackle) and terminology that applies to the run blocking scheme, and then slang terms that apply to the combination of what the back does and what the blockers do.

 

But all run plays from shotgun where the RB does not run towards the QB for a handoff are for sure, not draws.

 

Appreciate it but honestly I am too old and too many problems to try and learn all this stuff competently lol.  The differences between the run plays I refer to is pretty simple.  One is Cook standing still, Josh takes snap and runs all the way over to him and hands him the ball.  They ran that way too much and it was mostly a bad play. This week they ran the shot gun hand off different.  The back would run to Josh and get the ball.  This play was more effective.  Maybe because it was the Giants.  Maybe because it wasn't as long developing and telegraphed.  Maybe because the running back had some steam behind him when he got the ball.

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Appreciate it but honestly I am too old and too many problems to try and learn all this stuff competently lol.  The differences between the run plays I refer to is pretty simple.  One is Cook standing still, Josh takes snap and runs all the way over to him and hands him the ball.  They ran that way too much and it was mostly a bad play. This week they ran the shot gun hand off different.  The back would run to Josh and get the ball.  This play was more effective.  Maybe because it was the Giants.  Maybe because it wasn't as long developing and telegraphed.  Maybe because the running back had some steam behind him when he got the ball.

Cook is still receiving the handoff from basically a stopped position,  completely neutralizing his speed.  Just a ridiculously stupid strategy. 

[Ray Finkel]

I love the 2nd and 10 inside draw for a loss of 3.  That helps your QB out immensely.  

[Augie]

 

 

 

I’m enjoying the unofficial thread much more. You guys are missing out. 

[major]

Not defending Dorsey at all; however, offense/scoring is way down, league wide this year. Warren sapp addressed that yesterday saying players don’t practice well anymore which he believes is leading to less offensive output 😐 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just imagine if someone started a thread demanding you get fired from your job! 😂 especially when you’re top 5.

 

of course we did fire our lose DC after top 3 finishes so who knows! Fun fact, our defense isn’t top 3 right now. 

 

 

[Julio Hopkins]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Just imagine if someone started a thread demanding you get fired from your job! 😂 especially when you’re top 5.

 

of course we did fire our lose DC after top 3 finishes so who knows! Fun fact, our defense isn’t top 3 right now. 

 

 

 

3rd overall on points per game on defense.  1st is 49ers at 14.5, 2nd is Chiefs at 14.7, and the 3rd is the Bills at 14.8.  

[26TrapDraw]

Buffalo news had an interesting article about the offensive struggles last two weeks. Summing it up :

lots of ball washing by the players coming to Dorsey’s defense. We still are in the top 6 in the most important offensive statistics

( 75% red zone efficiency 2nd  first downs PPG etc. ) all fine and dandy. Still doesn’t pass the eye test. I’m sure defenses will be in the dime most of the rest of the season against us now since the giants did it and had success ( or our game plan was garbage first half) let’s see what happens against the patsies. I think Dorsey is reluctant to adjust on the fly because he’s like “ hey our offense works execute it!” 
we will find out if it was just a lull in production this Sunday.

[HoofHearted]

On 10/18/2023 at 10:24 AM, Westside said:

He runs the shotgun draw over and over and over and are lucky if they gain three yards. When I can sit at home and watch the game knowing when a draw play is coming, I’m sure the defense does also. It’s played out, at least if they run that play, don’t use our smallest back for it. Put in Murray who can pound the line. 
Dorseys play calling is very easily readable by opposing defenses.

 

So easy that you don't even know what he's running. 😉

[Julio Hopkins]

Man, we're really going to spend all season talking about how great this offense is statistically.  Then the postseason will roll around and this offense is going to struggle against a high level defense like last year.  

 

Then the offseason will be about adding more talent while the young guys continually fail to progress and contribute.  They really replaced Daboll with the offensive equivalent of Fraizer.  

[HeHateMe]

12 minutes ago, Julio Hopkins said:

Man, we're really going to spend all season talking about how great this offense is statistically.  Then the postseason will roll around and this offense is going to struggle against a high level defense like last year.  

 

Then the offseason will be about adding more talent while the young guys continually fail to progress and contribute.  They really replaced Daboll with the offensive equivalent of Fraizer.  

Can pretty much see this playing out exactly..

[Dunkirk Donski]

Technically I don’t live in dunkirk anymore, are there any local fundraisers for a billboard ?

[Peter]

I will let Josh Allen respond to the keyboard jockeys who are pushing the ridiculous anti-Dorsey narrative:

 

"Allen, however, left no doubt about where he stands with his offensive coordinator, saying he trusts him implicitly.

 

'All of it is,' the quarterback said when asked if any of the criticism of Dorsey is misguided. 'Nobody knows what’s going on in between walls here. Nobody knows the reads that we have in the quarterback room. Nobody knows the blocking schemes that we’re putting in the offensive line room. Again, it comes down to us executing and making sure that I’m on task and making sure that I’m trying to guide this offense in the right way. Making sure I’m making good decisions. It starts with me, so that’s No. 1.'”

 

Inside the Bills: Why team's offensive captains take issue with recent criticism of Ken Dorsey

 

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

I will let Josh Allen respond to the keyboard jockeys who are pushing the ridiculous anti-Dorsey narrative:

 

"Allen, however, left no doubt about where he stands with his offensive coordinator, saying he trusts him implicitly.

 

'All of it is,' the quarterback said when asked if any of the criticism of Dorsey is misguided. 'Nobody knows what’s going on in between walls here. Nobody knows the reads that we have in the quarterback room. Nobody knows the blocking schemes that we’re putting in the offensive line room. Again, it comes down to us executing and making sure that I’m on task and making sure that I’m trying to guide this offense in the right way. Making sure I’m making good decisions. It starts with me, so that’s No. 1.'”

 

Inside the Bills: Why team's offensive captains take issue with recent criticism of Ken Dorsey

 

He advocated for him and now he has to defend him, that's not really surprising. Execution also falls on the coach, if they aren't executing then he needs to make changes.