2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[finn]

7 hours ago, folz said:

Josh needs 142 total yards and 3 TDs over the last two games to equal Lamar's MVP season. Yes. he has 9 more INTs than Lamar did that season, but if you take Josh's 2023 game averages (279.4 yards and 2.66 TDs) for the next two games, Josh would have 417 total yards and 2-3 TDs more than Lamar did in his MVP season...just sayin'.

In one more game than Lamar, to be fair. But Allen could easily surpass Lamar's yards and total TDs with just the NE game (16 games). 

[finn]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I also think we going crazy with the Td stat. If instead of giving the ball to JAG Gus Edwards for 11 tds this year, they tush pushed him for like 7 more, does that really matter? 

Doesn't really work like that or else every QB would do rush for TDs themselves instead of handing the ball off. It takes a rare talent--a Hurts, Allen, Lamar, etc.--to score that many TDs on the ground, creating a dual threat that teams have to account for. If anything, QB rush TDs should be valued MORE than pass TDs. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

35 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

Actually yes I do have a big problem with you saying you would rather have an MVP than a Super Bowl. Who would rather have that? 
Wanting to see Josh win the MVP (or at least debating it) also doesn’t mean no one wants to win the Super Bowl-who thinks that linearly?

you on drugs?

 

I never said I would rather have an mvp than a sb.

 

I said.

 

mvp or lombardi?

 

 

lombardi all day.

 

 

mvp means nothing really.

 

as for debating, fine, debate all day. it still stands that a lombardi is way more important than mvp.

 

 

[Ya Digg?]

8 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

you on drugs?

 

I never said I would rather have an mvp than a sb.

 

I said.

 

mvp or lombardi?

 

 

lombardi all day.

 

 

mvp means nothing really.

 

as for debating, fine, debate all day. it still stands that a lombardi is way more important than mvp.

 

 

Go back and read our messages then come back and answer, otherwise there’s nothing more to discuss

 

There’s not a single person who would say they want the MVP over the Super Bowl, we agree on that. You make it seem like it’s ludicrous that people even want to debate the MVP though 

[Strethor]

Most likely will be CMC co-mvp /w one of  Lamar/Tua/Allen 

 

The narrative is against Allen 

[Warcodered]

Would you look at that some logical thinking.

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

17 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Would you look at that some logical thinking.

 

 

Anyone who doesn’t understand this simply does not watch Bills games 

[BuffaloBillyG]

53 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Would you look at that some logical thinking.

 

 

Never liked Sherman as a player. However the last couple of years he's really impressed me as a talking head. Not just on this topic, but he does provide well thought out and insightful thoughts and analysis. 

58 minutes ago, Strethor said:

Most likely will be CMC co-mvp /w one of  Lamar/Tua/Allen 

 

The narrative is against Allen 

Here's the problem. And this is also why Allen will NEVER win an MVP unless he's by far undisputed no questions able to be asked the best player in a season.

 

Too many that have votes for MVP bashed Allen coming into the league. Said he would never pan out. They CANNOT let him have an MVP. Would prove them wrong. So they will latch on to whatever they can year in and year out to deny him. 

[Process]

The Ravens went 3-2 last year without Lamar and if it weren't for a fumble at the 1 yard line would have beat the Bengals in the playoffs. 

[paulmm3]

Love Josh but he single handedly lost us too many winnable games earlier in the season to be worthy of MVP. Not his best year. 

[Ya Digg?]

5 minutes ago, paulmm3 said:

Love Josh but he single handedly lost us too many winnable games earlier in the season to be worthy of MVP. Not his best year. 

Outside of the Jets game, what game did Josh lose for the team???

[jlgarsh]

5 minutes ago, paulmm3 said:

Love Josh but he single handedly lost us too many winnable games earlier in the season to be worthy of MVP. Not his best year. 

He lost them the Jets game. That's it. Gave them the lead in the last 2 minutes 5 times this year, and the team is 1-4 in those games. That's on defensive coaching.

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

He lost them the Jets game. That's it. Gave them the lead in the last 2 minutes 5 times this year, and the team is 1-4 in those games. That's on defensive coaching.

That is fair, though even in that game after losing the lead he still got them in FG range at the very end of regulation to get them to OT.

 

 

 

[34-78-83]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

Would you look at that some logical thinking.

 

 

Keyshawn sure hates him some ‘all things Buffalo Bills’. Always has. Not sure why exactly. He’s also pretty dumb as media members go, so that’s fun too.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, finn said:

Doesn't really work like that or else every QB would do rush for TDs themselves instead of handing the ball off. It takes a rare talent--a Hurts, Allen, Lamar, etc.--to score that many TDs on the ground, creating a dual threat that teams have to account for. If anything, QB rush TDs should be valued MORE than pass TDs. 

It’s real football and not fantasy. 
 

Jackson is the qb of the best team in the nfl who just stomped the team everyone thought was the best team in the nfl on the road. Their only losses were flukes games they choked at the end. They are a top 5 team in history of how much they have led games this year. They are down to their 3rd string rb. Lamar has been doing it without their next best offensive player for the last 3 games. He has a career record of 57-19 while his backups have a losing record.  
 

I think this is the year a non qb should win. But considering the Ravens stomped the crap out of the 49ers, it is hard to make the argue for CMC today. 
 

it’s just weird we are penalizing him for dominating the games early so they don’t have to come back or stat pad. 

12 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

Keyshawn sure hates him some ‘all things Buffalo Bills’. Always has. Not sure why exactly. He’s also pretty dumb as media members go, so that’s fun too.

Keyshawn is a moron for a million reasons but you could make that statement for almost every top qb.

28 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

He lost them the Jets game. That's it. Gave them the lead in the last 2 minutes 5 times this year, and the team is 1-4 in those games. That's on defensive coaching.

But what about the halves the offense completely sucked and the defense keep us in the game - jags, Jets, broncos, pats, chargers? 
 

everyone knows Allen is awesome and our best player. But it still is a team game. This whole season has been really inconsistent and I think for a MVP, you need to be the most consistent player through the year. Allens has higher highs than everyone except maybe Mahomes. But there have been too many lows. 
 

that said, he can lead us to a SB and who cares about a MVP?

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Process said:

The Ravens went 3-2 last year without Lamar and if it weren't for a fumble at the 1 yard line would have beat the Bengals in the playoffs. 

Liar. They went 2-4 without Lamar (who was 8-4). Their backups accounted for 5 tds and 6 ints as opposed to Lamar’s 20 tds and 7 ints. 
 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2022.htm

[BeastMaster]

2 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Would you look at that some logical thinking.

 

 

Keyshawn Johnson has some of the most trash takes you will hear or see on television, and that's saying quite a bit with what is on nowadays. This particular take though seems like it may have a racial component to it for Keyshawn. 

 

The media hate and reluctance to ever give Josh his due kind of reminds me of a man that the media vilified for years and told you he would start WW3 and that anyone who thought that man was good was not good for democracy. 

 

Hopefully the voters don't fall for the media narrative that comes from a place of prejudice in the case of personalities like KJ, Nick Wrong, and Skip Bayless

[FireChans]

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s real football and not fantasy. 
 

Jackson is the qb of the best team in the nfl who just stomped the team everyone thought was the best team in the nfl on the road. Their only losses were flukes games they choked at the end. They are a top 5 team in history of how much they have led games this year. They are down to their 3rd string rb. Lamar has been doing it without their next best offensive player for the last 3 games. He has a career record of 57-19 while his backups have a losing record.  
 

I think this is the year a non qb should win. But considering the Ravens stomped the crap out of the 49ers, it is hard to make the argue for CMC today. 
 

it’s just weird we are penalizing him for dominating the games early so they don’t have to come back or stat pad. 

Keyshawn is a moron for a million reasons but you could make that statement for almost every top qb.

But what about the halves the offense completely sucked and the defense keep us in the game - jags, Jets, broncos, pats, chargers? 
 

everyone knows Allen is awesome and our best player. But it still is a team game. This whole season has been really inconsistent and I think for a MVP, you need to be the most consistent player through the year. Allens has higher highs than everyone except maybe Mahomes. But there have been too many lows. 
 

that said, he can lead us to a SB and who cares about a MVP?

I think if I had a vote today, I would vote for CMC. 
 

Lamar just doesn’t have the numbers, as awesome as he’s been, just like Josh doesn’t have the wins.

 

CMC has both, and imo, no QB has run away with the award.

[BeastMaster]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s real football and not fantasy. 
 

Jackson is the qb of the best team in the nfl who just stomped the team everyone thought was the best team in the nfl on the road. Their only losses were flukes games they choked at the end. They are a top 5 team in history of how much they have led games this year. They are down to their 3rd string rb. Lamar has been doing it without their next best offensive player for the last 3 games. He has a career record of 57-19 while his backups have a losing record.  
 

I think this is the year a non qb should win. But considering the Ravens stomped the crap out of the 49ers, it is hard to make the argue for CMC today. 
 

it’s just weird we are penalizing him for dominating the games early so they don’t have to come back or stat pad. 

Keyshawn is a moron for a million reasons but you could make that statement for almost every top qb.

But what about the halves the offense completely sucked and the defense keep us in the game - jags, Jets, broncos, pats, chargers? 
 

everyone knows Allen is awesome and our best player. But it still is a team game. This whole season has been really inconsistent and I think for a MVP, you need to be the most consistent player through the year. Allens has higher highs than everyone except maybe Mahomes. But there have been too many lows. 
 

that said, he can lead us to a SB and who cares about a MVP?

The RAVENS stomped the best team on the road...not just Lamar. That's why their defense has been top notch all season and Lamar has mediocre to good numbers. He has complimented the defense very well this season.

 

Lamar didn't outduel Brock Purdy in a battle that showcased who the better QB was...Purdy imploded and the Ravens capitalized on turnovers and great field position. Lamar had a fine game, but this wasn't a demonstration as to how high of a level Lamar Jackson was on. The Niners did everything they could to hand Baltimore the win, and even with all those turnovers, Lamar didn't close the door and the defense had to get yet another INT late to seal it.

 

Josh has 16 more TD's than Lamar and is accounting for 83% of his teams touchdowns, while LJ is at 55%.

 

If Josh plays well and the Bills beat Miami after Baltimore beats them and they get the two seed, it would be criminal to give Lamar the MVP over Josh

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, FireChans said:

I think if I had a vote today, I would vote for CMC. 
 

Lamar just doesn’t have the numbers, as awesome as he’s been, just like Josh doesn’t have the wins.

 

CMC has both, and imo, no QB has run away with the award.

Can’t disagree except that the Ravens stomped them. But this should be a non qb year. 

[FireChans]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Can’t disagree except that the Ravens stomped them. But this should be a non qb year. 

Ravens stomped them, but that was more a reflection on the Brocketship crashing back to earth. CMC still ate.

[Punch]

13 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

The media hate and reluctance to ever give Josh his due kind of reminds me of a man that the media vilified for years and told you he would start WW3 and that anyone who thought that man was good was not good for democracy. 

[Warcodered]

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

19 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

The RAVENS stomped the best team on the road...not just Lamar. That's why their defense has been top notch all season and Lamar has mediocre to good numbers. He has complimented the defense very well this season.

 

Lamar didn't outduel Brock Purdy in a battle that showcased who the better QB was...Purdy imploded and the Ravens capitalized on turnovers and great field position. Lamar had a fine game, but this wasn't a demonstration as to how high of a level Lamar Jackson was on. The Niners did everything they could to hand Baltimore the win, and even with all those turnovers, Lamar didn't close the door and the defense had to get yet another INT late to seal it.

 

Josh has 16 more TD's than Lamar and is accounting for 83% of his teams touchdowns, while LJ is at 55%.

 

If Josh plays well and the Bills beat Miami after Baltimore beats them and they get the two seed, it would be criminal to give Lamar the MVP over Josh

Their defense is 1st while our awful defense is 4th!!!! https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/opp.htm

 

our offense averages 2 more yards/ game while we have a better Wr1, possibly wr2 (obj is washed), a better rb, and haven’t had their star TE for 3 games.  https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team
 

I think Allen is the better overall qb. I just think this board hates to give Lamar credit. He needs to prove it in the playoffs but his impact on them is undeniable. If the Bills were challenging for the 1 seed, Allen is the favorite. But they aren’t and it’s been a super inconsistent season. 
 

 

[Punch]

10 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

FWIW, this discussion in the media re: Allen is becoming more prevalent as the Bills continue winning. Its also clearly backed up in his increasing Vegas odds.

[PatsFanNH]

25 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

The RAVENS stomped the best team on the road...not just Lamar. That's why their defense has been top notch all season and Lamar has mediocre to good numbers. He has complimented the defense very well this season.

 

Lamar didn't outduel Brock Purdy in a battle that showcased who the better QB was...Purdy imploded and the Ravens capitalized on turnovers and great field position. Lamar had a fine game, but this wasn't a demonstration as to how high of a level Lamar Jackson was on. The Niners did everything they could to hand Baltimore the win, and even with all those turnovers, Lamar didn't close the door and the defense had to get yet another INT late to seal it.

 

Josh has 16 more TD's than Lamar and is accounting for 83% of his teams touchdowns, while LJ is at 55%.

 

If Josh plays well and the Bills beat Miami after Baltimore beats them and they get the two seed, it would be criminal to give Lamar the MVP over Josh

Well expect the criminal to happen then.  Besides that let him win that and Allen win the more important MVP…. SB MVP. 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Punch said:

FWIW, this discussion in the media re: Allen is becoming more prevalent as the Bills continue winning. Its also clearly backed up in his increasing Vegas odds.

Well as Dak and Hertz have fallen away and more recently Purdy imploding the latest sacrifice at the alter of not Allen is Lamar. While team wins sort of works, the stat disparity is just really hard to ignore.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Well as Dak and Hertz have fallen away and more recently Purdy imploding the latest sacrifice at the alter of not Allen is Lamar. While team wins sort of works, the stat disparity is just really hard to ignore.

So if the Bills were the most consistent team from start to finish; had to go the whole season without Cook; Diggs missed 3 games; and we had the lead for basically 95% of games, you would think Lamar was the mvp with a worse record but better stats? 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So if the Bills were the most consistent team from start to finish; had to go the whole season without Cook; Diggs missed 3 games; and we had the lead for basically 95% of games, you would think Lamar was the mvp with a worse record but better stats? 

If Josh had Lamar's stats scoring only what 55% of that teams TDs, yeah I wouldn't think he'd win the MVP, I'd think the team as a whole was playing some really solid team football but our QB wasn't carrying us.

[Ya Digg?]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So if the Bills were the most consistent team from start to finish; had to go the whole season without Cook; Diggs missed 3 games; and we had the lead for basically 95% of games, you would think Lamar was the mvp with a worse record but better stats? 

The reality is the MVP is just a stats award. It goes to the QB with the best stats. There is quite the gap between Josh and Lamar statistically and if the Bills can finish with the 2 seed, I think it will be really hard to give Lamar the award 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

If Josh had Lamar's stats scoring only what 55% of that teams TDs, yeah I wouldn't think he'd win the MVP, I'd think the team as a whole was playing some really solid team football but our QB wasn't carrying us.

Find this hard to believe. There would be a riot on this board if that was the case and I’d lead it. 
 

mVP tends to go to the best player on the best team. I guess we’ll see if history is made this year. I put some money in Allen so I’m be happy haha. But I just want playoff success ultimately.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

The reality is the MVP is just a stats award. It goes to the QB with the best stats. There is quite the gap between Josh and Lamar statistically and if the Bills can finish with the 2 seed, I think it will be really hard to give Lamar the award 

But it’s really not. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/ap-nfl-mvp-award.htm
 

in the last 15 years (could more but I didn’t feel like checking), the MVP winners averages 12/13 wins. One was Matt Ryan, which could be Allen’s best case, who went 11-5 and beat out Brady (28 td/ 2 ints 14-2, best the Falcons in the SB) and Peterson who had 2,000 yards. 
 

also besides Mahomes, most MVPs don’t win the SB so do we even want Allen to win it? This a bills board haha. 

[julian]

Madden cover

league MVP

super bowl

Super bowl MVP

 

This is his destiny this year

[Scott7975]

15 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But it’s really not. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/ap-nfl-mvp-award.htm
 

in the last 15 years (could more but I didn’t feel like checking), the MVP winners averages 12/13 wins. One was Matt Ryan, which could be Allen’s best case, who went 11-5 and beat out Brady (28 td/ 2 ints 14-2, best the Falcons in the SB) and Peterson who had 2,000 yards. 
 

also besides Mahomes, most MVPs don’t win the SB so do we even want Allen to win it? This a bills board haha. 

 

You're neglecting that all those winners were also top of the league in stats.  Lamar isn't top of the league in anything.  I don't think Allen will get it.  I don't actually think he ever will.  I do think if Lamar gets it this year then the award is about as big of a farce as the pro bowl.  Lamar deserved it the year he got it.  He hasn't done crap to deserve it this year.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Scott7975

[Orlando Tim]

For Lamar to be leading now is absurd, he is the third best QB in the AFC this year. I am going with CMC right now and unless Josh or Tyreek really ball out the last two weeks he should win. No other players matter nearly as much to their teams. 

[dma0034]

24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But it’s really not. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/ap-nfl-mvp-award.htm
 

in the last 15 years (could more but I didn’t feel like checking), the MVP winners averages 12/13 wins. One was Matt Ryan, which could be Allen’s best case, who went 11-5 and beat out Brady (28 td/ 2 ints 14-2, best the Falcons in the SB) and Peterson who had 2,000 yards. 
 

also besides Mahomes, most MVPs don’t win the SB so do we even want Allen to win it? This a bills board haha. 

 

Brady missed 4 games that year or he would have won

[CSBill]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Would you look at that some logical thinking.

 

 

It’s refreshing to hear someone callout Keyshawn for what his stupid takes are, garbage! It still mystifies me they give him a microphone and actually pay him to spew his nonsensical drivel. 

[KingBoots8]

29 minutes ago, julian said:

Madden cover

league MVP

super bowl

Super bowl MVP

 

This is his destiny this year

Don’t tease me like that, good lord I’m trying to work 😂

[julian]

It’s down to week 18 for the MVP, unless Miami goes into Baltimore wins and wraps up the east and if that happens it should be Tyreek, but if week 18 is for the division then it’s the MVP bowl between Tyreek and Allen, winner of the division gets the MVP.

[BeastMaster]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You're neglecting that all those winners were also top of the league in stats.  Lamar isn't top of the league in anything.  I don't think Allen will get it.  I don't actually think he ever will.  I do think if Lamar gets it this year then the award is about as big of a farce as the pro bowl.  Lamar deserved it the year he got it.  He hasn't done crap to deserve it this year.

What's also funny is that nobody was pushing for LJ as MVP until lastnighta game.

 

Purdy implodes, and now LJ vaults into frontrunner for MVP? Again, he had a fine game, but this wasn't him delivering a signature performance to beat Purdy and the Niners...Purdy ***** the bed, and SF never got their offense going. Most of the credit here should go to the Ravens defense, with LJ complimenting it and taking advantage of the numerous times he was given great field position.

 

It's just strange that the guy that nobody was talking about because his numbers weren't there suddenly is the favorite because of this one game where the defense was clearly the catalyst and Jackson himself just played his part. 

 

I really don't understand how this game suddenly vaults him to the top. If you wanna say we should start taking him as a serious MVP candidate now, I'm OK with that.

 

Bottom line is that Josh should be right there with anyone, but needs to win out with at least 500 more pass yards and at least 5 more TD's to legitimately win

Edited December 26, 2023 by BeastMaster