Isabella shows moves, will he make the roster?

[Don Otreply]

If AI makes the team it’s as a KR / slot guy, if it turns out he is really good at both, then that is JFG, and we have another useful weapon for Josh. 
 

as to Gilliam…, I  don’t give it any thought, being he will end up on the roster as the coaches appear to find value in his play. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Don Otreply

[LEBills]

Just going off who Isabella was as a college prospect, I had him head and shoulders over his main roster spot competition Shorter (honestly Shorter was an UDFA level player for me).
 

I don’t think the Bills will keep a street FA over Shorter this year though - it’s just not their style. The only way it happens is if Isabella proves himself amazing at PR to make it more valuable than keeping a gunner like Shorter or even Shavers. As silly as it may seem sometimes, WR6 has to be worth it on special teams for this organization.

 

Hopefully we can keep both Isabella and Shavers on the PS if they go this route. But def rooting for him to show enough to make the team.

Edited August 19, 2023 by LEBills

[transient]

27 minutes ago, Cash said:

Did you mean Larry Centers? Because Gash was the epitome of an old school FB - phenomenal lead blocker in the run game, and not much else. 

Definitely a bruiser, but Gash did have 1300+ yds and 13 receiving TDs in his career… over half of that with the Bills. He was enough of a threat to catch teams off guard. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by transient

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Just going off who Isabella was as a college prospect, I had him head and shoulders over his main roster spot competition Shorter (honestly Shorter was an UDFA level player for me).
 

I don’t think the Bills will keep a street FA over Shorter this year though - it’s just not their style. The only way it happens is if Isabella proves himself amazing at PR to make it more valuable than keeping a gunner like Shorter or even Shavers. As silly as it may seem sometimes, WR6 has to be worth it on special teams for this organization.

 

Hopefully we can keep both Isabella and Shavers on the PS if they go this route. But def rooting for him to show enough to make the team.

 

If Isabella wins the returner job (not sure he will, he has never been a dynamic returner really) then I think there is a world in which it is Shakir that is in trouble if they like Shorter on coverage teams. I just wonder whether you can afford to hold a #5 wide receiver who doesn't do anything on special teams? We know Sherfield is going to play some teams, so maybe you can and Shorter misses out but it gets dicey for Shakir if someone other than Harty wins that return job....

[Einstein]

Beane mentioned a while back that we will be running more 12 personnel this year, with Kincaid coming in. So we likely keep 4 TE’s, and with that being the case, I don’t see how you carry 7 wide receivers.

 

Diggs, Davis, Shakir, Harty and Sherfield are thought of as locks. Shorter will make the roster due to his great ST ability. Isabella doesn’t fit in here. He could be a returned, but Harty is already an all-pro returner.

 

I think Isabella gets stashed on the PS.

 

Obviously this all changes if Shakir becomes a surprise cut.

[Coach Tuesday]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Isabella wins the returner job (not sure he will, he has never been a dynamic returner really) then I think there is a world in which it is Shakir that is in trouble if they like Shorter on coverage teams. I just wonder whether you can afford to hold a #5 wide receiver who doesn't do anything on special teams? We know Sherfield is going to play some teams, so maybe you can and Shorter misses out but it gets dicey for Shakir if someone other than Harty wins that return job....

Agree and if that happens, maybe flip Shakir to Tampa who just lost their starting slot Gage for the year.

[oldmanfan]

There are at least 9 WRs on the roster right now that will be on rosters this year.  Some of our 3rd and 4th stringers are going to get snapped up after cuts.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

They kept two blocking tight ends instead. Agree they rarely lined anyone up at full back - though they did occasionally use either Calcaterra or Stoll in the backfield - but they kept an extra blocker on the roster and brought him in on short yardage... they just did it with a tight end instead. Kinda my point proven - if you cut Gilliam you are not replacing him with a "skill" player. You are replacing him with someone primarily on the roster to block and play STs. And fans would moan about that player, the way they moaned about Lee Smith. The way they moan about Matakevich. 

 

The problem is most fans simply don't understand the minutiae of the game sufficiently to see the value of those types of player. They want all the spots going to guys who will put up stats. 

 

Agree somewhat with that bolded part.  But here's the thing, I just looked, but Gilliam wasn't even on the field for any of our rushing TDs this past season, long or short, by Allen, Sing, or Cook, whose only two were long runs, or even for McKenzie's.  Singletary had 2 from the 5 and 2 more from the 1 YL.  Gilliam wasn't to be found.  

 

One of the problems that I see is when attempts are made to establish how valuable a player is but that it is without any perceiveable statistics or data to support the claim, and it has to be "you have to watch the games and watch him play," or some other nebulus criteria that seemingly can only be noticed by "experts", and experts that have major issues with establishing a running game to begin with while underutilizing it regularly on top of that, which to me leans at least a little in the "but she's got a great personality" column.  

 

You may very well be right, but where's the evidence?  It clearly wasn't on our scoring runs, which would seem to be some of those "big body" plays that you refer too.  He wasn't on the field for any of our short-yardage rushing TDs, which is the very first place one would expect to see him if the case were in fact that he's brought in on short-yardage plays.  

 

As I said before, I might agree with your position, but where's the evidence?  I can't find any "every play" type of video for Gilliam, but if he's regularly not in on any of our scoring runs, and clearly he's not what makes our passing game go, again, where's the evidence?  

 

Special Teams is just that, but we're talking offense, and there will be good special teams players all over the place in two more weeks.  And how good is he on STs given that he logged a mere 3 combined tackles last season, 2 of which were solo.  It's a tough argument to suggest that he's even an impact STs player.  

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by PBF81

[MWK]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

There are at least 9 WRs on the roster right now that will be on rosters this year.  Some of our 3rd and 4th stringers are going to get snapped up after cuts.

 

People say that every year and it rarely happens. Patmon, Ateman, Shavers, and Johnson are a dime a dozen.

[PBF81]

38 minutes ago, Doc said:

Completely serious.  As for the bolded, they'd add him to the roster whereas the Bills would put him on the PS.  So yes.

 

I can see that except that from what I can tell, it appears that the Giants didn't use a FB last season and have no roster spot for one.  

 

 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, MWK said:

 

People say that every year and it rarely happens. Patmon, Ateman, Shavers, and Johnson are a dime a dozen.

I think these guys are on practice squads somewhere.

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Isabella wins the returner job (not sure he will, he has never been a dynamic returner really) then I think there is a world in which it is Shakir that is in trouble if they like Shorter on coverage teams. I just wonder whether you can afford to hold a #5 wide receiver who doesn't do anything on special teams? We know Sherfield is going to play some teams, so maybe you can and Shorter misses out but it gets dicey for Shakir if someone other than Harty wins that return job....

 

I know you'll disagree, but if Isabella makes the roster, I see Sherfield getting cut.  

 

 

[MWK]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I think these guys are on practice squads somewhere.

 

 

I agree. Just not 53 man rosters.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Cash said:

Did you mean Larry Centers? Because Gash was the epitome of an old school FB - phenomenal lead blocker in the run game, and not much else. 

Lol. Sorry in trying to catch a flight to Italy and posting too fast 

[FLFan]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I know you'll disagree, but if Isabella makes the roster, I see Sherfield getting cut.  

 

 

Not a chance.  Completely different skill set for one.  

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Agreed.  But here's the thing, I just looked, but Gilliam wasn't even on the field for any of our rushing TDs this past season, long or short, by Allen, Sing, or Cook, whose only two were long runs, or even for McKenzie's.  Singletary had 2 from the 5 and 2 more from the 1 YL.  Gilliam wasn't to be found.  

 

One of the problems that I see is when attempts are made to establish how valuable a player is but that it is without any perceiveable statistics or data to support the claim, and it has to be "you have to watch the games and watch him play," or some other nebulus criteria that seemingly can only be noticed by "experts", and experts that have major issues with establishing a running game to begin with while underutilizing it regularly on top of that, which to me leans at least a little in the "but she's got a great personality" column.  

 

You may very well be right, but where's the evidence?  It clearly wasn't on our scoring runs, which would seem to be some of those "big body" plays that you refer too.  He wasn't on the field for any of our short-yardage rushing TDs, which is the very first place one would expect to see him if the case were in fact that he's brought in on short-yardage plays.  

 

As I said before, I might agree with your position, but where's the evidence?  I can't find any "every play" type of video for Gilliam, but if he's regularly not in on any of our scoring runs, and clearly he's not what makes our passing game go, again, where's the evidence?  

 

Special Teams is just that, but we're talking offense, and there will be good special teams players all over the place in two more weeks.  And how good is he on STs given that he logged a mere 3 combined tackles last season, 2 of which were solo.  It's a tough argument to suggest that he's even an impact STs player.  

 

 

 

Again his value comes down to things other than stats. The Bills were good in short yardage they actually weren't great in short yardage in the redzone. I suspect if you tracked every short yardage conversion elsewhere on the field he would have a bigger role. They also use him as I have said to get favourable matchups. And again.... the argument isn't that he is a top 5 full back in the NFL. He is a pretty good special teams player, and particularly in punt coverage has value because he can play 3 different positions on punt team including personal protector. But I wouldn't say he is top 5 in the NFL as a STer either. Nor would I argue he is a top 5 blocking tight end. 

 

The point is EVERY roster has 1 or 2 offensive players at either FB or TE who are mainly on the team to block. Some have two. Very few of those teams get the value out of that / those players that the Bills get out of Gilliam on special teams. Take my Eagles example. They kept two blocking tight ends and no fullback. But even adding the % of STs snaps those two TEs played together comes to less than what Gilliam played on teams for the Bills. So most need at least two players - an offensive skill position blocker and a special teams player - and sometimes 3 guys to do what Gilliam does for Buffalo. That is his value. Not that he does a single thing brilliantly, but that he actually SAVES them a roster spot for a position player who will put up some stats either on offense or defense because of his multi-functionality. 

 

As I say, most fans don't understand special teams. Most fans don't like 'skill' position blockers. It is what it is. But Gilliam does 3 jobs to a reasonable standard and it lets them use their other spots on guys who catch, run, and tackle (on the defensive side). 

10 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I know you'll disagree, but if Isabella makes the roster, I see Sherfield getting cut.  

 

 

 

Yea zero chance I see Sherfield cut. He is their next man up outside after Diggs and Davis and Isabella can't do that job. Also he blocks, had a brilliant one last week on the Cook TD run and the staff love that. 

[SoMAn]

57 minutes ago, LEBills said:

Just going off who Isabella was as a college prospect, I had him head and shoulders over his main roster spot competition Shorter (honestly Shorter was an UDFA level player for me).
 

I don’t think the Bills will keep a street FA over Shorter this year though - it’s just not their style. The only way it happens is if Isabella proves himself amazing at PR to make it more valuable than keeping a gunner like Shorter or even Shavers. As silly as it may seem sometimes, WR6 has to be worth it on special teams for this organization.

 

Hopefully we can keep both Isabella and Shavers on the PS if they go this route. But def rooting for him to show enough to make the team.

I don’t know that BB and the team really care about a prospect’s draft position or if they’re FA. I believe the team will field the 53 that will best serve the needs of the team.  Last season they sent the message that late round pick Benford outplayed 1st rounder Elam, giving him the starting nod. So, if Isabella outplays Shorter, he may make the team and they’ll try to add Shorter to PS. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by SoMAn

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

No chance.  He'd be with the Giants in a millisecond.

 

I don't think he is subject to waivers, so they could do the "cut and wait in the carpark" they used to do with Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow seemingly every season if they then want to put someone on non-season ending IR for example. 

[JDubya76]

The voice in the ad for the first minute, I had to jam steak knives into my ear drums. What did they say after that? I couldn’t hear it.

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, MWK said:

 

People say that every year and it rarely happens. Patmon, Ateman, Shavers, and Johnson are a dime a dozen.

 

Yea agree. Isabella if the Bills cut him, COULD get picked up. Shorter and Shakir slightly more likely. But none of those 3 are locks to be claimed IMO and definitely the other guys won't be. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1. Diggs

2. Davis

3. Shakir

4. Sherfield 

5. Harty

6. Isabella 

7. Patmon

PS- Shorter, Shavers

JMHO....Isabella has had a good enough camp to earn a spot. He'll be the backup slot and returner to Harty.

[Buffalo Junction]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He 100% does not define expendable. He does 3 jobs for them. I am not guaranteeing he makes it at his current deal because he is at $666k dead money and not subject to waivers so a potential candidate for the old "cut and wait in the car park while we make other roster moves and then bring you back" tactic that Beane has used multiple times. 

 

But he will 100% make this roster. 

 

He is good. You are wrong. Oh and he played 50 snaps at TE in 2022. 81 as a fullback. 37 in the slot. 19 split wide. They have actually used him HEAVILY in the last two regular season victories over the Chiefs because they really struggle to work out what personnel to come out in when Gilliam moves all over the place. Most fans totally undervalue what he offers. 

I think the issue is that folks view him as solely a fullback when his utilization and skill set is more closely aligned with an H-back. Gilliam’s categorization is one of the reasons why everyone views the bills as not using much 12 personnel last season, but Gilliam was used as the second TE. That’ll certainly change with Kincaid, but they still need a guy who can fill that role as a backup and play teams. Folks have their minds made up though because he’s “a fullback,” so 🤷‍♂️ 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I think the issue is that folks view him as solely a fullback when his utilization and skill set is more closely aligned with an H-back. Gilliam’s categorization is one of the reasons why everyone views the bills as not using much 12 personnel last season, but Gilliam was used as the second TE. That’ll certainly change with Kincaid, but they still need a guy who can fill that role as a backup and play teams. Folks have their minds made up though because he’s “a fullback,” so 🤷‍♂️ 

 

Yea his value is the entire package.

 

Can you find a better pure fullback? Yes

Can you find a better move / H-Back type? Yes

Can you find a better blocking tight end option? Yes

Can you find a better, versatile special teamer? Harder, but I am sure you could. 

 

Can you find all of that in a single player? That is the one where I answer no. 

[Robert Paulson]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Isabella wins the returner job (not sure he will, he has never been a dynamic returner really) then I think there is a world in which it is Shakir that is in trouble if they like Shorter on coverage teams. I just wonder whether you can afford to hold a #5 wide receiver who doesn't do anything on special teams? We know Sherfield is going to play some teams, so maybe you can and Shorter misses out but it gets dicey for Shakir if someone other than Harty wins that return job....

Shakir should be nervous and maybe hold onto the ball when thrown to him

[Beast]

The Bills shouldn’t be concerned about a low round draft pick that may get picked up by another team if cut.

 

This should be all about what gives them the best chance of winning a Super Bowl this season.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, LEBills said:

Just going off who Isabella was as a college prospect, I had him head and shoulders over his main roster spot competition Shorter (honestly Shorter was an UDFA level player for me).
 

I don’t think the Bills will keep a street FA over Shorter this year though - it’s just not their style. The only way it happens is if Isabella proves himself amazing at PR to make it more valuable than keeping a gunner like Shorter or even Shavers. As silly as it may seem sometimes, WR6 has to be worth it on special teams for this organization.

 

Hopefully we can keep both Isabella and Shavers on the PS if they go this route. But def rooting for him to show enough to make the team.

 

The thing with Shorter is there is little reason to believe he will be placed on any other team's active roster based on what he's done so far.  So that means PS.

 

50 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

I can see that except that from what I can tell, it appears that the Giants didn't use a FB last season and have no roster spot for one. 

 

They might not in the past but Gilliam was there under Daboll and he used him.

 

29 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't think he is subject to waivers, so they could do the "cut and wait in the carpark" they used to do with Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow seemingly every season if they then want to put someone on non-season ending IR for example. 

 

He's been in the league just 3 years.  He's subject to waivers.  Now the Giants would pick later in the order so they might not be able to get him.

[Buffalo Junction]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea his value is the entire package.

 

Can you find a better pure fullback? Yes

Can you find a better move / H-Back type? Yes

Can you find a better blocking tight end option? Yes

Can you find a better, versatile special teamer? Harder, but I am sure you could. 

 

Can you find all of that in a single player? That is the one where I answer no. 

Exactly. Adding say a Lee Smith type and Taiwan Jones/Tyler Matakevich type to reliably cover the gaps would cost 2-3 times the amount. Top specialist cost real cap space, having a guy who can cover multiple roles for one of those contracts helps retain guys like Poyer. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He's been in the league just 3 years.  He's subject to waivers.  Now the Giants would pick later in the order so they might not be able to get him.

 

Cheers. In which case they won't cut him. 

[Einstein]

46 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

1. Diggs

2. Davis

3. Shakir

4. Sherfield 

5. Harty

6. Isabella 

7. Patmon

PS- Shorter, Shavers

JMHO....Isabella has had a good enough camp to earn a spot. He'll be the backup slot and returner to Harty.

 

Shorter is a great ST guy. If you replace him with Isabella, you have to find someone to take Shorters place on ST as well. And that won’t be Isabella.

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Cheers. In which case they won't cut him. 

 

I was surprised.  Seems like he's been on the team forever.

 

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

Shorter is a great ST guy. If you replace him with Isabella, you have to find someone to take Shorters place on ST as well. And that won’t be Isabella.

 

Is he? 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Doc
Spacing

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, FLFan said:

Not a chance.  Completely different skill set for one.  

 

Doesn't matter in this case.  It's not part of the reason why I said that.  

 

And BTW, "not a chance?"  Really?  Low cap hit, no demonstrable contributions in four seasons.  I disagree.  

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by PBF81

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

Is he? 

 

Yes. He was a key component of Florida’s ST in 2020 and 2021. He played less ST snaps in 2022 because he broke out as a WR.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Doesn't matter in this case.  It's not part of the reason why I said that.  

 

And BTW, "not a chance?"  Really?  Low cap hit, no demonstrable contributions in four seasons.  I disagree.  

 

 

 

But it does matter to them.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I suspect if you tracked every short yardage conversion elsewhere on the field he would have a bigger role. They also use him as I have said to get favourable matchups. And again.... the argument isn't that he is a top 5 full back in the NFL. He is a pretty good special teams player, and particularly in punt coverage has value because he can play 3 different positions on punt team including personal protector. But I wouldn't say he is top 5 in the NFL as a STer either. Nor would I argue he is a top 5 blocking tight end. 

 

The point is EVERY roster has 1 or 2 offensive players at either FB or TE who are mainly on the team to block. Some have two. Very few of those teams get the value out of that / those players that the Bills get out of Gilliam on special teams. Take my Eagles example. They kept two blocking tight ends and no fullback. But even adding the % of STs snaps those two TEs played together comes to less than what Gilliam played on teams for the Bills. So most need at least two players - an offensive skill position blocker and a special teams player - and sometimes 3 guys to do what Gilliam does for Buffalo. That is his value. Not that he does a single thing brilliantly, but that he actually SAVES them a roster spot for a position player who will put up some stats either on offense or defense because of his multi-functionality. 

 

As I say, most fans don't understand special teams. Most fans don't like 'skill' position blockers. It is what it is. But Gilliam does 3 jobs to a reasonable standard and it lets them use their other spots on guys who catch, run, and tackle (on the defensive side). 

 

Haven't you done that to support your analysis on this? 

 

I'd love to look at the data/stats on it.  I simply don't know where to get them without hours worth of film study, and it's not worth that kinda time.  

 

I'd be quite interested to look at what you have.  

 

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea zero chance I see Sherfield cut. He is their next man up outside after Diggs and Davis and Isabella can't do that job. Also he blocks, had a brilliant one last week on the Cook TD run and the staff love that. 

 

Shorter can back up Diggs and Davis.  So can Khalil.  Their strengths align with that according to both their draft profiles as well as Khalil's play here last season.  

 

We shall see.  

 

As for me, I'm perplexed as to why there's so much hope for a player that's produced pedestrian numbers at best, and almost exclusively in situations where competition for his roster spot in five seasons has been as minimal as it will ever be.  

 

Don't be surprised if he is cut.  "Not a chance" tho, I'd be careful with that one.  

 

 

[PBF81]

36 minutes ago, Doc said:

They might not in the past but Gilliam was there under Daboll and he used him.

 

Used him in what capacity?  
 

He was here for two seasons, of his three in the NFL, under Daboll, and he got fewer targets and catches in both seasons combined than he did last season, under Dorsey.  He also got greater snap counts last season, both on O and STs, than he did in either season under Daboll.  

 

Again, in what capacity then?  

 

 

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Yes. He was a key component of Florida’s ST in 2020 and 2021. He played less ST snaps in 2022 because he broke out as a WR.

 

IIRC, a scout called Shavers the best STs prospect he's seen in awhile, maybe ever.

 

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

Used him in what capacity?  
 

He was here for two seasons, of his three in the NFL, under Daboll, and he got fewer targets and catches in both seasons combined than he did last season, under Dorsey.  He also got greater snap counts last season, both on O and STs, than he did in either season under Daboll.  

 

Again, in what capacity then? 

 

The same as in Buffalo.  The Bills signed him to the 53 with Daboll as OC and kept him the following year.  Obviously that must been with Daboll's blessing.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

56 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea his value is the entire package.

 

Can you find a better pure fullback? Yes

Can you find a better move / H-Back type? Yes

Can you find a better blocking tight end option? Yes

Can you find a better, versatile special teamer? Harder, but I am sure you could. 

 

Can you find all of that in a single player? That is the one where I answer no. 

HELL, yeah!!!

 

🎵Chris-teee-ann Wade!!! 🎶
 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[Einstein]

Just now, Doc said:

 

IIRC, a scout called Shavers the best STs prospect he's seen in awhile, maybe ever.

What is going to doom Shavers is that he doesnt do anything else particularly well.

 

Shorter has the potential to be a good receiver and an elite tall endzone threat. That plus his experience in ST, I believe, will earn him a spot.

Shavers... all he has is the special teams. That's why he wasn't drafted. On a roster as deep as the Bills is, that's not enough. 

[SCBills]

Honestly, why not just cut Matakevich if we want to keep Isabella?

 

Would we have brought him back if we knew of the rule change at the time?

 

Id like to keep Shakir and Shorter given the contract uncertainty of Gabe Davis.  Im not sold on either of them, but cheap contracts are going to be big moving forward … it’s the same reason I’d probably keep Boogie over AJE or Lawson. 

[julian]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes, in his flexibility and versatility. How many full backs can legitimately play inline as a blocking tight end? How many could even allow you to flex them into the slot and / or split wide? He also plays on every single special team and does so very effectively. I don't argue that he is elite at any one thing but there are not many full backs who offer that genuine versatility and flexibility that Gilliam does. You are really talking Ricard and Juszczyk in terms of multiple usage in the offense (they are both much better pure fullbacks than Gilliam, no question) and neither of those play special teams. 

 

EDIT: this is why I say haters of full backs, blocking tight ends and STers should love Gilliam. Because if they cut him they need three players to replace him. 

In fairness, how many fullbacks even still exist in the NFL ?