Connor and O’Cyrus at the minimum should help cut down on these type of things

[Ethan in Cleveland]

53 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Brown has elite physical abilities. He’s definitely worth the time to develop. Many 1st round picks have started worse than Brown. And yes, he’s had many hurdles early on in his career.

 

I think most people just wanted a competition at RT. Currently no one will challenge Brown at RT unless they move Bates back out to OT. 

Good post. I agree. I wanted them to add an OT but by the time they picked in first round all the top prospects were gone. Agree with Kincaid pick.  Torrence was too good to pass up in second round. 

I'm actually equally worried about Dawkins as I am Brown. Dawkins has played poorly in two consecutive years with the exception of about 5 games at the end of 2021.  Those 5 or 6 games were some of his best football played however. Really enigma. 

I see them moving on from Dawkins in 2024 unless he really rebounds. He is way overpaid for the level of play he showed in 2022. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Good post. I agree. I wanted them to add an OT but by the time they picked in first round all the top prospects were gone. Agree with Kincaid pick.  Torrence was too good to pass up in second round. 

I'm actually equally worried about Dawkins as I am Brown. Dawkins has played poorly in two consecutive years with the exception of about 5 games at the end of 2021.  Those 5 or 6 games were some of his best football played however. Really enigma. 

I see them moving on from Dawkins in 2024 unless he really rebounds. He is way overpaid for the level of play he showed in 2022. 

 Nah, Dawkins had a couple below average games last year but he’s consistently average. I wouldn’t worry about him. I don’t agree that he’s played poorly. 

[GunnerBill]

48 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't think he "underperformed except for week 1".  Von Miller specifically called out Phillips after several games for the pressure up the middle that let Miller do his thing.

 

I do think the Bills expected Phillips to behave with more sense on the field and not pull his hamstring and tear up his shoulder chasing around the backfield like a nickel corner.

 

 

Then you're going to fundamentally always have a problem with a roster built to support McDermott's defense, because McDermott believes in DL rotation as a fundamental underpinning of his D.

 

1. Von can fluff him up all he wants but I am telling you what I saw on the field and even allowing for injuries it was poor.

 

2. I don't have any issue with DL rotation. I am a proponent of it. The Eagles and Howie Roseman have believed in it for years. What I question is do you need 4 paid vets? It is at the cost of other parts of the roster. I refuse to believe that the rotation would be sunk if you swapped out Tim Settle for Brandin Bryant or someone of that ilk and that money might have got you another outside receiver or a better vet tackle to challenge Brown or a better #2 tight end than Morris.... or whatever it may have been.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I have no words for what Josh endured last season

 

 

 

This isn't good.

 

But it ain't like other teams never have plays where the QB gets battered. It's the nature of football.

 

Whoever Sachi is, he could find probably 2000 plays like this in the NFL last year.

 

But yeah, bringing in Connor and O'Cyrus should help, and they needed the upgrade there, most particularly from Saffold, who turned out to be cooked.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

1. Von can fluff him up all he wants but I am telling you what I saw on the field and even allowing for injuries it was poor.

 

2. I don't have any issue with DL rotation. I am a proponent of it. The Eagles and Howie Roseman have believed in it for years. What I question is do you need 4 paid vets? It is at the cost of other parts of the roster. I refuse to believe that the rotation would be sunk if you swapped out Tim Settle for Brandin Bryant or someone of that ilk and that money might have got you another outside receiver or a better vet tackle to challenge Brown or a better #2 tight end than Morris.... or whatever it may have been.

 

Based on what you have seen as of now and you had to make a decision, would you extend Oliver at what his expected market rate would be?

Will DaQuan Jones or Poona Ford get more snaps at 1T?

 

How do you feel about our DE depth and would you sign Justin Houston if he becomes a serious option?

[msw2112]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Same way Ruben Brown went to the Pro Bowl every year (although Brown was never THAT bad). If you are a Guard, once your name is known, you are going every year since you're pretty much the only Guard people know.

 

My dad and I used to joke that all the opposing Defenders voted Ruben in every year just to keep him around so they could play against him.

 

Same here for Saffold.

 

I love this post.  I always thought that Ruben Brown was a good player and seemed/seems like a good guy.  That said, he was a solid veteran starting guard, not a perennial All-Pro.  I've seen posts in this board in past years saying that Brown is a fringe Hall of Fame candidate....To me, that's crazy talk.  But he was a reliable guard with a known name.  I'd say something similar about former Bills tackle John Fina.  He was a solid starter.  Good NFL player.  I don't know him personally, but I have a couple of connections in Arizona and elsewhere that know his family and have met him personally and say he's a GREAT dude.  I'd love to meet him some time and shoot the sh*t about his Bills career. That said, I think he was a bit over-rated as a player.  I think that he was a good starter on a great team, so he had name recognition.  (If I do ever meet him, I hope he doesn't know what I said about him here....He and I are about the same age and I can hold my own, but he's a bit bigger than me and a former professional football player, so I think he might be able to take me).

[RoyBatty is alive]

55 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

I love this post.  I always thought that Ruben Brown was a good player and seemed/seems like a good guy.  That said, he was a solid veteran starting guard, not a perennial All-Pro.  I've seen posts in this board in past years saying that Brown is a fringe Hall of Fame candidate....To me, that's crazy talk.  But he was a reliable guard with a known name.  I'd say something similar about former Bills tackle John Fina.  He was a solid starter.  Good NFL player.  I don't know him personally, but I have a couple of connections in Arizona and elsewhere that know his family and have met him personally and say he's a GREAT dude.  I'd love to meet him some time and shoot the sh*t about his Bills career. That said, I think he was a bit over-rated as a player.  I think that he was a good starter on a great team, so he had name recognition.  (If I do ever meet him, I hope he doesn't know what I said about him here....He and I are about the same age and I can hold my own, but he's a bit bigger than me and a former professional football player, so I think he might be able to take me).

Fina has an absolute killer series ("Off Tackle with John Fina")  during football season weekly where he meticulously analyzes certain Bill plays and he shows the good and the bad.  And yes from what he says on the podcasts he seems like a genuinely great guy.  I highly recommend it.

Edited May 19, 2023 by RoyBatty is alive

[GunnerBill]

57 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Based on what you have seen as of now and you had to make a decision, would you extend Oliver at what his expected market rate would be?

Will DaQuan Jones or Poona Ford get more snaps at 1T?

 

How do you feel about our DE depth and would you sign Justin Houston if he becomes a serious option?

 

It won't be popular but at the Spotrac estimate $10.5m AAV yes I'd extend Ed. Not sure he'd take that now though. He would want to test the market (and may well get more). Not sure I'd go much above that. Maybe to $12m AAV for a lower guaranteed % and out after a couple of years.

 

Jones will be the starter IMO.

 

At the right price, yes on Houston. Don't feel great starting a season with AJE, Boogie or Shaq as a pencilled in starter until Von returns.

[wppete]

Saffold was a complete disaster. Lucky Josh didn’t get seriously injured last year. 

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It won't be popular but at the Spotrac estimate $10.5m AAV yes I'd extend Ed. Not sure he'd take that now though. He would want to test the market (and may well get more). Not sure I'd go much above that. Maybe to $12m AAV for a lower guaranteed % and out after a couple of years.

 

Jones will be the starter IMO.

 

At the right price, yes on Houston. Don't feel great starting a season with AJE, Boogie or Shaq as a pencilled in starter until Von returns.

 

I think Von will be back probably by week 1.  

The healing process is sped up because they don't have to drill holes in the bone again.  The bone healing takes awhile too apparently.  

Plus, we still have 3.5 months and he's doing full plyometric workouts now.

 

Is Boogie not even worth depth?  The underdog name on here is Kingsley Jonathan...what do you think of him?

Edited May 19, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think Von will be back probably by week 1.  

The healing process is sped up because they don't have to drill holes in the bone again.  The bone healing takes awhile too apparently.  

Plus, we still have 3.5 months and he's doing full plyometric workouts now.

 

Is Boogie not even worth depth?  The underdog name on here is Kingsley Jonathan...what do you think of him?

 

I think Jonathan. He is raw but there is some potential there.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

This isn't good.

 

But it ain't like other teams never have plays where the QB gets battered. It's the nature of football.

 

Whoever Sachi is, he could find probably 2000 plays like this in the NFL last year.

 

But yeah, bringing in Connor and O'Cyrus should help, and they needed the upgrade there, most particularly from Saffold, who turned out to be cooked.

 

The only mystery is how the Bills hadn't worked this out before they signed him. Not like Titans games are blacked out or played on the moon.

[PrimeTime101]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

It's unfair to judge a veteran player like Saffold just by one rep.  That's why you need to watch all of them last year to truly grasp how terrible he was.

PFF grades do not lie. he was terrible. 

 

Overall 43.7

Pass Block 51

Run Block 43.1

 

Not to mention 10 penalties called against him. 

 

In that Cinci game?

 

Overall 42.1

Pass Block 57.1

Run Block 18.1

 

The dude never had his heart in the game this year and it showed. 

 

 

 

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

This isn't good.

 

But it ain't like other teams never have plays where the QB gets battered. It's the nature of football.

 

Whoever Sachi is, he could find probably 2000 plays like this in the NFL last year.

 

But yeah, bringing in Connor and O'Cyrus should help, and they needed the upgrade there, most particularly from Saffold, who turned out to be cooked.

2,000 plays like this?  I doubt it, especially in a playoff game.  I cant recall ever  watching a player put forth a weak effort for the first half second and then stand there and  watch like a moron as he QB is under attack.

 

I will say the only mitigating factor might be that Saffold was to paranoid about his footing and was too  timid to move.

 

This video actually give me hope for next year, we tried to address a glaring weakness.  I cant imagine there won't be a massive improvements on the interior o line.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

1. Von can fluff him up all he wants but I am telling you what I saw on the field and even allowing for injuries it was poor.

 

2. I don't have any issue with DL rotation. I am a proponent of it. The Eagles and Howie Roseman have believed in it for years. What I question is do you need 4 paid vets? It is at the cost of other parts of the roster. I refuse to believe that the rotation would be sunk if you swapped out Tim Settle for Brandin Bryant or someone of that ilk and that money might have got you another outside receiver or a better vet tackle to challenge Brown or a better #2 tight end than Morris.... or whatever it may have been.

I disagreed with your take on this last offseason.  I loved the settle signing.  He was 24 at the time coming off of his rookie contract.  Loved him @ VTech and loved what I had heard about him from some commanders fans I know.  They were upset about losing him.

 

that said-  what we got out of him last year was forgettable.  I thought Brandon Bryant played better than him tbh.  He proved to be just a guy.  He’s not bad- but, for a guy being paid 4m+ I didn’t think he gave us much more than a replacement player would’ve.  
 

you think he’s be cut this year?  Do we even save money?  I thought he had a 5M dead cap

[LABILLBACKER]

This organization had 5 full years to identify they had a very mediocre OL protecting their superstar. It wasn't until this off season that they magically decided to pull their heads out of their arses.  We may have wasted 2 straight years of landing a Lombardi because of this negligence. 

[Shemp]

Saffold slipped on that blasted turf, the guy got by him, then he just stood there. He's useless. I heard a rumor that Buffalo is getting rid of the turf and replacing it was grass...is this right? 

[LABILLBACKER]

30 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

PFF grades do not lie. he was terrible. 

 

Overall 43.7

Pass Block 51

Run Block 43.1

 

Not to mention 10 penalties called against him. 

 

In that Cinci game?

 

Overall 42.1

Pass Block 57.1

Run Block 18.1

 

The dude never had his heart in the game this year and it showed. 

 

 

 

Why didn't we replace his sorry ass with anyone. I don't care. Stick Doyle or Quessenberry (ugh) in there. Our IOL depth last year was embarrassing. But there's never a shortage of DL/ LB depth for Derm.

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I disagreed with your take on this last offseason.  I loved the settle signing.  He was 24 at the time coming off of his rookie contract.  Loved him @ VTech and loved what I had heard about him from some commanders fans I know.  They were upset about losing him.

 

that said-  what we got out of him last year was forgettable.  I thought Brandon Bryant played better than him tbh.  He proved to be just a guy.  He’s not bad- but, for a guy being paid 4m+ I didn’t think he gave us much more than a replacement player would’ve.  
 

you think he’s be cut this year?  Do we even save money?  I thought he had a 5M dead cap

 

I don't think he will be, but I don't think it is impossible.

[Beck Water]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The only mystery is how the Bills hadn't worked this out before they signed him. Not like Titans games are blacked out or played on the moon.

 

The good news is that the Bills have a good athletic training staff and sports medicine staff.   The bad news is that they rely on said staff to project how players will be able to come back from injuries, and sometimes they're wrong.

 

Every new OL coach likes to bring in "his guys" who can player-coach the room and help cultivate respect for the coach's message.   These guys aren't necessarily the greatest talent as players.   I can't bring myself to name who was Juan Castillo's "guy".  Jon Feliciano was Bobby Johnson's "guy".   Rodger Saffold was Kromer's "guy".

 

[ProcessTruster]

I admire the way Beane can recognize a miss, be sure that the contracts are only one year and just go back to work and fix it.   Had Ike been healthy, Saffold would have found the bench quickly.   

 

Josh's contract makes it challenging for sure.  Cinci about to find that out the hard way.  

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Spencer Brown had no last college season due to COVID, then almost no camp, then last year no ota’s,

minicamp, or training camp due to back and neck injuries which is the metaphoric Achilles heel for an O Lineman.

 

Im not making apologies or excuses for him.  I’m simply stating facts and this off season he can participate in all of it, and is most likely healthy.  Kramer has this off season to work with him and advance his development.  That’s why McBeane continue to support him.  They are not quick to pass judgment as his raw talent got him through his rookie season and he put powered everyone.

 

His RAS score is 100.  That’s what Beane, McD, and Dorsey, and Kroger see.

 

Now another poor year and there are no excuses and you’ll hear no argument from me.  I’ve been wrong before like I was ready to give up on Lnox when he finally put it together with his hands and tied the league in 9 touchdown catches two years ago.  The staff was more loyal to him than I.

You guys have no argument from

me on our guards in 22.  Bates and Boettger are nothing but backups.

 

I have cautious optimism on McGovern and Mt. O Cyrus.  This coupled with faster backs and a 6’5” F TE/Slot WR can be the very thing to provide hope this year.  I like many wish we had D. Hop, but that ship sailed.  We’ll have to make the most of our current stable of Diggs, DK squared for 12, Davis, Sherfield, Harty, and Shakir.

 

It’s almost odd to say a team that was #2 and #3 in two important offensive categories to think we can be better.

 

The defense is more about our draft, free agency, and a full year for Tre to get better.

 

Fact is Brown's a bum

[Turk71]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Fact is Brown's a bum

 

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

 

 

Phil Hartmann was the best cast member ever

[pennstate10]

16 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Spencer Brown had no last college season due to COVID, then almost no camp, then last year no ota’s,

minicamp, or training camp due to back and neck injuries which is the metaphoric Achilles heel for an O Lineman.

 

Im not making apologies or excuses for him.  I’m simply stating facts and this off season he can participate in all of it, and is most likely healthy.  Kramer has this off season to work with him and advance his development.  That’s why McBeane continue to support him.  They are not quick to pass judgment as his raw talent got him through his rookie season and he put powered everyone.

 

His RAS score is 100.  That’s what Beane, McD, and Dorsey, and Kroger see.

 

Now another poor year and there are no excuses and you’ll hear no argument from me.  I’ve been wrong before like I was ready to give up on Lnox when he finally put it together with his hands and tied the league in 9 touchdown catches two years ago.  The staff was more loyal to him than I.

You guys have no argument from

me on our guards in 22.  Bates and Boettger are nothing but backups.

 

I have cautious optimism on McGovern and Mt. O Cyrus.  This coupled with faster backs and a 6’5” F TE/Slot WR can be the very thing to provide hope this year.  I like many wish we had D. Hop, but that ship sailed.  We’ll have to make the most of our current stable of Diggs, DK squared for 12, Davis, Sherfield, Harty, and Shakir.

 

It’s almost odd to say a team that was #2 and #3 in two important offensive categories to think we can be better.

 

The defense is more about our draft, free agency, and a full year for Tre to get better.

I think people may not realize how much the lost Covid year and back injury set Brown back. 
It’s been said that it takes 10,000 hours to become truly expert at any physical task, whether it’s playing the violin, pitching, or soccer. You can debate the 10,000 hour limit, but practice and reps are important. As opposed to most nfl OL, who have been playing OL since high school, Brown didn’t convert to tackle until his 3rd year in college. Given the missed time due to Covid and back injury, it’s fair to say that Brown is still on the steep part of the learning curve. This is an important year. 
 

By the way, don’t sleep on Bates. Watched all of his and McGoverns games in college. I think Bates is a better guard. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Bates at LG and McGovern/Torrence at RG. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

I think people may not realize how much the lost Covid year and back injury set Brown back. 
It’s been said that it takes 10,000 hours to become truly expert at any physical task, whether it’s playing the violin, pitching, or soccer. You can debate the 10,000 hour limit, but practice and reps are important. As opposed to most nfl OL, who have been playing OL since high school, Brown didn’t convert to tackle until his 3rd year in college. Given the missed time due to Covid and back injury, it’s fair to say that Brown is still on the steep part of the learning curve. This is an important year. 
 

By the way, don’t sleep on Bates. Watched all of his and McGoverns games in college. I think Bates is a better guard. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Bates at LG and McGovern/Torrence at RG. 

 

If Bates is such a good guard why was he so average last year? Okay he played better (though not as well as the hype) on the left side the last 6 weeks of 2021 but eventually you are what your tape says you are.

[Buffalo716]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Bates is such a good guard why was he so average last year? Okay he played better (though not as well as the hype) on the left side the last 6 weeks of 2021 but eventually you are what your tape says you are.

He’s a great spot starter 

 

but he hasn’t shown the consistency to be the guy I want manning my inside 

[TAinLack.]

20 hours ago, Fleezoid said:

 

Can't resist.

 

From defense to offense......

 

Never gets old!!!!

[SoMAn]

Dorsey and Allen can mask a lot of o- line deficiencies with quick developing dink and dunk plays that don’t rely on linemen holding blocks for more than a couple of seconds. 
Brady and the Patriots made a career out of it with ever changing lineups in front. 
Cut down on Allen scrambling around, searching for an open receiver. Keep the chains moving with short crisp timing passes.  Reduce 3rd and long situations. Improved time of possession, keeping their D fresh. Put points on the board. 
 

Don’t need an all-star o-line with that approach. 

[Don Otreply]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Phillips had two hamstring injuries. He has a history of hamstring injuries during his time with the Cardinals. And he underperformed when healthy except for week 1. 

 

My problem with Settle was never Settle per se. It was that they felt the need to have 4 established, paid, vets in the DT rotation (at the moment it looks like 5 this year!) and that money comes from other areas on the roster. Whether that is OL, WR, TE, a better backup QB.... a better bet LB this year than AJ... it is the opportunity cost as much as Settle not playing that well IMO.

Many here have mentioned allocation of resources as an issue over the last year or so, what you have spoken to is an an example of not using more of those resources on the O-line where it would have been better used, jmo. 
 

We as fans can only lament, or celebrate, tis the nature of the beast…, 

[newcam2012]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Fact is Brown's a bum

He's unproven for sure. He has a lot developing to do. I get the Bills are not giving up on him. However, I did expect some competition for him. That position is very vital to the offense. Seems a bit problematic.

[newcam2012]

14 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

Dorsey and Allen can mask a lot of o- line deficiencies with quick developing dink and dunk plays that don’t rely on linemen holding blocks for more than a couple of seconds. 
Brady and the Patriots made a career out of it with ever changing lineups in front. 
Cut down on Allen scrambling around, searching for an open receiver. Keep the chains moving with short crisp timing passes.  Reduce 3rd and long situations. Improved time of possession, keeping their D fresh. Put points on the board. 
 

Don’t need an all-star o-line with that approach. 

This is the wrong approach in my opinion. Look at the Chiefs success. Their Oline is a key part of their success. Conversely, the Bills Oline had been a nemesis for years now. 

 

The game is still largely won in the trenches. 

[SoMAn]

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

This is the wrong approach in my opinion. Look at the Chiefs success. Their Oline is a key part of their success. Conversely, the Bills Oline had been a nemesis for years now. 

 

The game is still largely won in the trenches. 

If they’re able to quickly assemble a better than average line, I’m with you. 
My suggestion is a method to be as efficient as possible when there are existing holes that can’t be easily filled. 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, SoMAn said:

If they’re able to quickly assemble a better than average line, I’m with you. 
My suggestion is a method to be as efficient as possible when there are existing holes that can’t be easily filled. 

That makes sense. What frustrates me is that the Bills Oline has been a problem for seemingly a decade and maybe more. Certainly, during Beane's tenure it's been a consistent theme. This year's oline is hopefully better. 

[Bills!Win!]

Football is a game of inches and seconds. If you give Allen two improved guards and that buys him 1 second every play, we could win the superbowl

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

This is the wrong approach in my opinion. Look at the Chiefs success. Their Oline is a key part of their success. Conversely, the Bills Oline had been a nemesis for years now. 

 

The game is still largely won in the trenches. 

The O-line is the fulcrum that allows the offense to leverage its weapons, some GMs won’t wrap their minds around this fact. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

That's actually a great play design... if your LG is eligible. 

2 hours ago, SoMAn said:

Dorsey and Allen can mask a lot of o- line deficiencies with quick developing dink and dunk plays that don’t rely on linemen holding blocks for more than a couple of seconds. 
Brady and the Patriots made a career out of it with ever changing lineups in front. 
Cut down on Allen scrambling around, searching for an open receiver. Keep the chains moving with short crisp timing passes.  Reduce 3rd and long situations.

 

Allen might not be that kind of QB though. He is a gunslinger at heart. Does he have the mentality to play that kind of short quick passing game? And does he have the skill set to do it consistnetly?

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, SoMAn said:

Dorsey and Allen can mask a lot of o- line deficiencies with quick developing dink and dunk plays that don’t rely on linemen holding blocks for more than a couple of seconds. 
Brady and the Patriots made a career out of it with ever changing lineups in front. 
Cut down on Allen scrambling around, searching for an open receiver. Keep the chains moving with short crisp timing passes.  Reduce 3rd and long situations. Improved time of possession, keeping their D fresh. Put points on the board. 
 

Don’t need an all-star o-line with that approach. 

 

Brady only had 1 really bad offensive line in New England that I recall. Generally the oline was a strength of those teams through multiple iterations. Though obviously Brady got the ball out so fast which helped too.

 

[newcam2012]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brady only had 1 really bad offensive line in New England that I recall. Generally the oline was a strength of those teams through multiple iterations. Though obviously Brady got the ball out so fast which helped too.

 

The failure to build a really solid oline has cost the Bills playoff wins and likely Super Bowl wins. 

[SoMAn]

Just now, newcam2012 said:

The failure to build a really solid oline has cost the Bills playoff wins and likely Super Bowl wins. 

I imagine it’s difficult to distribute limited cap dollars to have the best guys in the trenches AND at skill positions. Tough choices for a GM. There isn’t a team in the league that doesn’t have a weakness somewhere.