Frazier Permanently Gone?

[Don Otreply]

7 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The Game passed Frazier by...

True enough, it was as if he feared making adjustments during games, I am starting to think he knew he was bad at trying to do so, so he didn’t, likely why he was never a serious candidate for a HCing position. Leslie is now a retired millionaire, so I think he will muddle along nicely.

[pigpen65]

I just hope his personal health is ok. A year off from coaching while you are under contract is not a normal thing. You either have a job or you get fired. Football aside, it makes me concerned that there is something else going on that he would need time off to deal with. 

[hondo in seattle]

13 minutes ago, pigpen65 said:

I just hope his personal health is ok. A year off from coaching while you are under contract is not a normal thing. You either have a job or you get fired. Football aside, it makes me concerned that there is something else going on that he would need time off to deal with. 

 

Von had the same concern...   "Immediately, my question was, ‘Is he all right?'" 

 

www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-von-miller-leslie-frazier-coach-absence-sean-mcdermott-nfl-combine

 

[MJS]

Of course. You don't take a year off just because you want to and then go back to the team you used to work for.

 

He'll take a year off and then enter to pool of coaching candidates for jobs. His contract with the Bills was up and they did not renew or extend it.

20 minutes ago, pigpen65 said:

I just hope his personal health is ok. A year off from coaching while you are under contract is not a normal thing. You either have a job or you get fired. Football aside, it makes me concerned that there is something else going on that he would need time off to deal with. 

He was not under contract. His contract with the Bills was up. They did not extend him.

Edited May 18, 2023 by MJS

[hondo in seattle]

This was what Beane said when Frazier's departure was announced...

 

"It's tough. It's a hard business as we know. There's a lot of scrutiny on it, and there's a lot of hours, a lot of time put in and, and, again, not speaking for Leslie, but sometimes you may just want to take a breath for a minute.  Again, that would be for him to say, but he was very adamant that he's not going to retire. My two cents, just wanted to take a step back this season."

 

This sounds like it was Frazier's decision and not a soft termination.  Very mysterious!

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

This was what Beane said when Frazier's departure was announced...

 

"It's tough. It's a hard business as we know. There's a lot of scrutiny on it, and there's a lot of hours, a lot of time put in and, and, again, not speaking for Leslie, but sometimes you may just want to take a breath for a minute.  Again, that would be for him to say, but he was very adamant that he's not going to retire. My two cents, just wanted to take a step back this season."

 

This sounds like it was Frazier's decision and not a soft termination.  Very mysterious!

IMHO it was his decision…to step away rather than take a demotion. 

[Rigotz]

19 hours ago, Chaos said:

If he gets a head coaching job now, do the Bills get comp picks? 

 

In related news, we don't get comp picks when Rex Ryan gets another shot as well.

 

Any other lackluster head coaching candidates we should cover?

[blacklabel]

I know the players loved him and in the regular season he was solid. And keep in mind, the defensive plan allows for yardage and then they tighten up in their own end to force field goals. But there were some situations that just seemed inexplicable. I don't like to relive those moments. It just felt like when the pressure was on and they really needed it, he just didn't get it done. 

 

The Bills knew they had to move on and they did it in the most polite way they could. 

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Those rankings meant nothing. The Bills defense was a paper tiger who padded their stats against bad QB's and bad offenses overall. They got exposed against good teams with good QB's. The games that hurt the most were 13 seconds and the Bengals playoff game.

I get to a point what you’re saying. But to say it means nothing is wrong as well. The defense helps us win a bunch of games in the regular season. They may have folded at times but it still was a strength of the team most of the year.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

This was what Beane said when Frazier's departure was announced...

 

"It's tough. It's a hard business as we know. There's a lot of scrutiny on it, and there's a lot of hours, a lot of time put in and, and, again, not speaking for Leslie, but sometimes you may just want to take a breath for a minute.  Again, that would be for him to say, but he was very adamant that he's not going to retire. My two cents, just wanted to take a step back this season."

 

This sounds like it was Frazier's decision and not a soft termination.  Very mysterious!

 

I know for a fact, from a source, that it was entirely Frazier's decision. It was not a stealth firing as some have proposed, and his contract wasn't set to expire. McDermott wanted Frazier to stay, but he thought it over for a month and ultimately decided to take a year off from coaching. It's not unheard of that coaches will take a year off. The year long grind is in some ways even more grueling on the coaches than on the players.

 

My unsourced belief is that if Frazier wanted to get back into the fold next year McDermott would welcome him back. Frazier does not currently have a team affiliation because he is currently not working with the Bills. That doesn't mean he is out forever.

 

It's interesting that McDermott ended up taking over play calling duties and will be the de facto DC. I know that soon after Frazier's decision Bobby Babich Jr. was the front runner for the job. I don't know what changed. Perhaps McDermott decided enough is enough with the defensive crashes in the playoffs and decided he wants full control of the ship.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by HappyDays

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I know for a fact, from a source, that it was entirely Frazier's decision. It was not a stealth firing as some have proposed, and his contract wasn't set to expire. McDermott wanted Frazier to stay, but he thought it over for a month and ultimately decided to take a year off from coaching. It's not unheard of that coaches will take a year off. The year longgrind is in some ways even more grueling on the coaches than on the players.

 

My unsourced belief is that if Frazier wanted to get back into the fold next year McDermott would welcome him back. Frazier does not currently have a team affiliation because he is currently not working with the Bills. That doesn't mean he is out forever.

 

It's interesting that McDermott ended up taking over play calling duties and will be the de facto DC. I know that soon after Frazier's decision Bobby Babich Jr. was the front runner for the job. I don't know what changed. Perhaps McDermott decided enough is enough with the defensive crashes in the playoffs and decided he wants full control of the ship.

Before the offseason started, I knew there’d be a coaching change on defense. The Bills failed spectacularly in 3 straight playoff games (4 if you include the Houston collapse) and it would’ve been a near impossibility to sell to the fans that they were running it back again with the same crew. I just couldn’t see it.

I know you have your sources, but the only 3 men who were in that room and know for sure what transpired was Beane, McDermott, and Frazier. If your source isn’t Beane or McDermott, I don’t think it could be spot on. Call me a cynic for not believing implicitly what Frazier would have to say about the situation.

[HappyDays]

22 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I know you have your sources, but the only 3 men who were in that room and know for sure what transpired was Beane, McDermott, and Frazier.

 

That's fair, but what my source told me lines up with the timeline and with every other report about Frazier leaving. If he was stealth fired or given an ultimatum, why the month long wait? Why didn't McDermott interview external candidates? The truth is McDermott was surprised to see Frazier walk away, not blindsided but surprised. Anyways Frazier was just running McDermott's scheme, he wasn't going rogue with his defensive philosophy.

 

I did come out of the season thinking changes to the defense were coming but that would have been true whether Frazier stayed or not. I mean they pretty much HAVE TO change up the defense. So many consecutive failures in the playoffs is unacceptable, I'm sure McDermott knows that. But firing Frazier wasn't ever going to be the solution. The real change starts at the top.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by HappyDays

[Brand J]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's fair, but what my source told me lines up with the timeline and with every other report about Frazier leaving. If he was stealth fired or given an ultimatum, why the month long wait? Why didn't McDermott interview external candidates? The truth is McDermott was surprised to see Frazier walk away, not blindsided but surprised. Anyways Frazier was just running McDermott's scheme, he wasn't going rogue with his defensive philosophy.

 

I did come out of the season thinking changes to the defense were coming but that would have been true whether Frazier stayed or not. I mean they pretty much HAVE TO change up the defense. So many consecutive failures in the playoffs is unacceptable, I'm sure McDermott knows that. But firing Frazier wasn't ever going to be the solution. The real change starts at the top.

 

Yeah I’d have to believe he would’ve been kept, but in a demoted role. After thinking about it for some time Frazier realized that’s not what he wanted to do so he stepped away. I think the hiring of that outside “defensive specialist/consultant” was when Frazier was still employed by the Bills. The wheels of change were in motion. Let’s see what McDermott brings to the table as a play caller. The Bills are better/deeper everywhere except MLB, so I expect that unit to step up and make plays when they’re needed. 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Is Frazier coming back?

No.  Not a chance. 

His "choice" to take a year off was a polite dismissal.  

McDermott wants a more aggressive defense that will blitz more frequently.  

The Bills won't be bending and reacting this year.  Expect more creativity and opposing QB's running for their lives. 

Looking forward to Week 1!  How's about you, Aaron??

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

IMHO it was his decision…to step away rather than take a demotion. 

 

No inside sources, just a Sorry Wild Ass Guess (SWAG)...  McD told Frazier he wanted to take back playcalling next season or make some other change that Frazier didn't like.  So they talked it over and Frazier decided to step away rather than continue in a diminished role.  

 

Frazier believes he deserves another opportunity to be a HC.  And maybe he does.  So feeling like a DC in name only, with McD actually in charge, can't be good for his professional self-esteem.  If he can't get a HC job somewhere, he should probably find a DC position for an offensive HC.  He needs to be in a position where he'll get credit for the successes of the defensive unit, not the HC.    

[Sierra Foothills]

8 hours ago, Beast said:

Did anyone really believe he was coming back? 

 

[QCity]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:58 AM, GunnerBill said:

Leslie is not coming back. He chose to walk away from the final year of his Bills contract, take a year off and then he will take what presumably will be his last NFL job. I suspect that will be as a DC on a team with a new first time offensive minded head coach. And you know what? He will have a good defense. Because Leslie Frazier is a good football coach. 

 

Yeah. That's what happened.

[Beck Water]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:47 PM, hondo in seattle said:

It sounds like, as some surmised, that Frazier is out permanently:

 

The NFL released a memo on Wednesday listing the 40 participants of the league’s 2023 coach accelerator program May 21-23.

 

Leslie Frazier’s name was included in the memo, however, he was one of three head-coaching hopefuls (along with Pep Hamilton and Kris Richard) to not have a team affiliation next to his name.

 

www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/does-leslie-frazier-s-latest-venture-hint-he-won-t-return-to-bills-in-2024/ar-AA1bkG6e?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b643a44bc2294b33ae7f8a3b6dd8b453&ei=44

 

I think this might be reading into the tea leaves a bit much.  Leslie Frazier is taking a leave from the Bills so he has no team affiliation at present.

 

We really don't know what his contract status is - there were rumors his contract with the Bills was over, but @john wawrow who is typically very reliable, said that is not true.

 

Bottom line, I didn't think it was likely that Frazier would be back, but I'm not sure this memo tells us any more or less than we knew before.

 

On 5/17/2023 at 9:00 PM, BigAl2526 said:

When he left, I think his return was up in the air, but it's always been known that Frazier would like another chance to be a head coach in the NFL and would take it if he got the opportunity.  I don't think things have materially changed.  I think any one of three things could happen:  1.  Frazier could return to Buffalo.  2.  Frazier could get his long awaited chance at another head coaching gig.  3.  Sean McDermott could decide that the Bills are better off without Frazier.  Either he might continue to make calls on the defense or he might bring in a different defensive coordinator.  

 

There is also, I suppose, a fourth possible outcome.  Maybe Leslie Frazier decides to hang it up.  I don't think that is likely at this point, but you never know.  Only one of the four alternate futures has Frazier coming back, so I guess you'd have to say the odds favor him not returning to the Bills. 

 

Fifth possible outcome: the Bills either underperform or make another early playoff exit, and "Management decides to make a change" in the coaching and FO, which would see Frazier out the door along with the rest of them.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

14 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

No inside sources, just a Sorry Wild Ass Guess (SWAG)...  McD told Frazier he wanted to take back playcalling next season or make some other change that Frazier didn't like.  So they talked it over and Frazier decided to step away rather than continue in a diminished role.  

 

Frazier believes he deserves another opportunity to be a HC.  And maybe he does.  So feeling like a DC in name only, with McD actually in charge, can't be good for his professional self-esteem.  If he can't get a HC job somewhere, he should probably find a DC position for an offensive HC.  He needs to be in a position where he'll get credit for the successes of the defensive unit, not the HC.    

 

I think it's possible that the change Frazier didn't like was prioritization of talent acquisition for defense.  Frazier probably came out of the team's post-season analysis knowing that the team's off-season priority was going to be to add talent on offensive skill possitions and OL (which, by and large, is how the off season played out).  That meant that the Bills were going to move on from Edmunds and not take a big swing to replace him with a comparable defensive talent. 

 

That means it's fairly likely that our defense will take a step back.  For a coach who apparently badly wants another shot as a HC, having a defense that drops from #1 or #2 to maybe #15 or 16 could be seen as lowering his potential value as a HC.

 

And yes, it's also possible that McDermott wanted changes in how the defense prepares and is called that left Frazier feeling like he might be relegated to a figurehead role at times, which would also lower perception of his value.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

16 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I know for a fact, from a source, that it was entirely Frazier's decision. It was not a stealth firing as some have proposed, and his contract wasn't set to expire. McDermott wanted Frazier to stay, but he thought it over for a month and ultimately decided to take a year off from coaching. It's not unheard of that coaches will take a year off. The year long grind is in some ways even more grueling on the coaches than on the players.

 

I don't have any sources, but I'd point out that McDermott has previously not been shy about either firing, or moving on from, coaches whose efforts left him dissatisfied.  Rico Dennison -> bye Felicia.  Juan Castillo -> bye Felicia.  Others have been allowed to "save face" by "leaving to pursue another opportunity" in a parallel role (Heath Farwell), or, if their contract was up, just thanked for their services (Chad Hall).

 

So it's entirely believable to me that if McDermott wanted Frazier gone, he would not be as concerned about "saving his face" with this "step back from coaching" move.  Frazier would be told to seek a position elsewhere right after the season, or outright fired.

 

I can't call the names to mind, but IIRC several highly successful coaches stated that the best thing a fired HC could do was to take a year off to reflect vs immediately stepping into another role.  These weren't the words used, but the precept that "when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you came to clear the swamp" applies - if you're full-go into the grind of the NFL season, it's hard to take time to reflect on how you're doing things, gather information on how other organizations and coaches do things, and put together a cogent plan for an improved strategy.

 

It may be that Frazier honestly decided he needed to step back from the swamp and reflect on better strategies for clearing it, free of daily responsibilities for alligator wrangling.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Beck Water

[Thurman#1]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:07 AM, wppete said:

Yea no one seriously thought he would be back…. That was the softest firing ever. The Bills didn’t want the backlash. 

 

 

Nah.

 

You ask the reporters who've talked to all these guys and they don't believe it was a firing. It's fans who want to believe it who do believe it.

 

I don't believe anyone ever said he'd be back with the Bills, though it probably hadn't been ruled out as a possibility if things worked out that way.

 

Leslie was frustrated. He wanted time off. But it's never been reported that he was promised a chance to return to the Bills. How could the Bills have made that promise? They had to shuffle things around a ton to get things ready for this year without Frazier. How could they have promised to let him back in and then gotten good people to take the jobs? Why would the Bills promise to let him come back without seeing what happened with the new arrangements with Frazier gone?

 

And when he said he'd be back in 2024 it was never clear that he was saying he'd be back in Buffalo. As I understand it he said he would return to coaching. Has anyone seen that he said he would return to the Bills?

 

IMO what OP is reporting is what was understood to be happening. He separated from the Bills. He wasn't promised a return, though it was likely considered a possibility if everything worked out just right. At least it's what I understood, though I've been wrong before.

[Saint Doug]

The only question I have here is: do we get the minority coach comp pick if he is hired elsewhere?

[Thurman#1]

40 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

The only question I have here is: do we get the minority coach comp pick if he is hired elsewhere?

 

 

He doesn't work for the Bills. Why would we?

 

The rule is to compensate teams that are losing guys who are being poached for promotions, guys they will have to replace. We aren't losing him to another team in a promotion.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Thurman#1

[ExWNYer]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:47 AM, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Most Bills fans don't need a stop at the end of the rails...🤔

*
I am disappointed that nobody has opined:

"Frazier has left the building!"

 

 

[Don Otreply]

Frankly, the writing was on the wall for Frazier the moment that the “Senior Defensive Assistant “ was being tossed around by Beane and McDermott, it was tantamount to telling LF that we don’t feel you are able to deliver what is needed at points in the regular season and your post season results speak for themselves…, etc etc etc, ( think Yul Breener when you read the etc part) 
 

It’s just how the corporate world rolls, is what it is…, 

[Shemp]

He was put on unpaid indefinite leave.

[bigK14094]

Sounds to me like the NLF  is running this program to generate minoiry HC candidates, and LF is in the cohort being groomed for that kind of role.  Doesn't mean he gets one, but, he might.  His time in Minn wasn't great, and that is against him.  But, recall Marv Levy had a bad record at KC before  coming a GOAT for the Bills.  Anyhow, the NFL is trying to move some minorities into the HC ranks.  the NFL;'s problem is that they have decentralized hiring, and the owner and GM pick their guy.  Who knows what the  calculus is in each of the 32 teams.  I know personal confidence in the selection is important at that level, and likely the owner makes the final decision.  Frazier h as made a lot of money.  this is a self satisfaction move for him trying to move up the line.  If that is what he wants, I wish him well.  He has a good record as a DC, but, that is not enough to get selected.  And, his age may be an issue as well, mid 60's is a hard time to get promoted. (yeh, but Marv did)  

[HT02]

I think he was quietly told it was time to move on.  I suspect he and McDermott have a strong personal relationship and they found a way for the Bills to make a change without making him look like the public scape-goat.   He seems like a genuinely good man but I am glad the Bills made the change.  I would rather they had bought in a new DC rather than have McDermott take over that role too though.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I'll go one further.

 

If Bills underachieve in the playoffs again McD could be gone too !

[WhoTom]

1 hour ago, Shemp said:

He was put on unpaid indefinite leave.

 

I heard it was double-secret probation.

 

[Saint Doug]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

He doesn't work for the Bills. Why would we?

 

The rule is to compensate teams that are losing guys who are being poached for promotions, guys they will have to replace. We aren't losing him to another team in a promotion.

 

 

Isn’t he under contract with the Bills for another year? Sitting out for a year shouldn’t burn this. Over the next year, I don’t think he could sign anywhere without the Bills getting some form of compensation from the other team. As far as we know, he hasn’t retired.
 

That said, I do agree. He may benefit from this NFL program, but sitting on his couch over the next year isn’t going to be rewarded with a promotion. The best thing for him would be for the Bills to negotiate his exit. 

[fan_in_tx]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:25 PM, RyanC883 said:

 

his soft and refusal to press coverage was infuriating, esp. with Elam who is good in press coverage.  

not sure I press on that field but should protect the sticks.

[Turk71]

 

I am glad he is gone. I hate the soft nonaggressive defense. A good QB makes it the Death of a Thousand cuts,  so frustrating to watch. I'd rather be aggressive and get beat down the field once in a while than watch that garbage. With such a potent offense the Bills focus on D should be getting off the field. Get after them, create turnovers, get off the ***** field. No more 8 minute drives while Josh is waiting on the sideline. The downside is sometimes they break a play and now the ball is back in Josh Allen's hands. I'll take that tradeoff anyday. Strictly from an entertainment perspective there is no comparison, soft d and long drives with Allen off the field is unbearable. Compare watching that to watching an aggressive defense and more Allen possessions. 

 There is no guarantee that is what we will get but I know I have seen enough of Frazier's defense that I welcome whatever comes next.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Turk71

[Drew21PA]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:20 PM, Einstein said:

I wonder if there was 1 year left on his contract and the team offered to pay him to take the year off.

 

Either way, there was no coming back from this.

 

What?  It makes perfect sense!  Bengals didn’t know what hit em!!!

[Billsfan777]

If his head coaching going to get like his defensive coaching skills sets then he is not going to be successful as a head coach

[Eastport bills]

Leslie is a fine NFL coach, but he’s gone as far as he can go with us. He’s too reactive with his defensive philosophy. We had lost our aggressive mentality, and his young personnel after the injuries to key starters, didn’t fit the bend don’t break defense. He rarely sent extra rushers and didn’t like pressing receivers at the line. Even Sean said our defense was not physically imposing and needed to dictate the tone. Sean will be much better and our fortunes will rest with Dorsey’s evolution as an OC.

[NewEra]

20 hours ago, Turk71 said:

 

I am glad he is gone. I hate the soft nonaggressive defense. A good QB makes it the Death of a Thousand cuts,  so frustrating to watch. I'd rather be aggressive and get beat down the field once in a while than watch that garbage. With such a potent offense the Bills focus on D should be getting off the field. Get after them, create turnovers, get off the ***** field. No more 8 minute drives while Josh is waiting on the sideline. The downside is sometimes they break a play and now the ball is back in Josh Allen's hands. I'll take that tradeoff anyday. Strictly from an entertainment perspective there is no comparison, soft d and long drives with Allen off the field is unbearable. Compare watching that to watching an aggressive defense and more Allen possessions. 

 There is no guarantee that is what we will get but I know I have seen enough of Frazier's defense that I welcome whatever comes next.

 

I agree. Good D .  Great person and seems to be beloved by his players.  Failed miserably in 3 straight season ending losses.  
 

time will tell if we’re better off without him… but I think  staying the course with him calling plays would’ve led us to the similar results. Close but no cigar

[jethro_tull]

That has to be the weirdest firing in the history of the NFL.  

[ganesh]

On 5/20/2023 at 12:10 AM, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I'll go one further.

 

If Bills underachieve in the playoffs again McD could be gone too !

absolutely.  Everyone is held accountable

[ganesh]

On 5/20/2023 at 12:10 AM, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I'll go one further.

 

If Bills underachieve in the playoffs again McD could be gone too !

absolutely.  Everyone is held accountable

 

The Bills are identifying that winning AFC East and going to the playoffs is one thing; they also realize that you need superior coaching to elevate yourself in the playoffs and we don't have one as we have continued to make critical mistakes to exit the playoffs

    *.  Bills had a 17-0 lead against the Watson led Texans...3rd and 16 with game on the line and  the defenders were at the 25 yard mark. 

    *. Bills take a 3 pt lead against the Chiefs with 17 seconds left and we allowed Mahomes two catches to get into FG range....We also kicked the ball to EZ and there by not taking any time of the clock

    *. Bills are pummeled by the Bengals Offense and Defense and were trailing by two scores most of the game.  The OC could not adjust the game plan and kept chucking the ball downfield for low % plays.  

   *. Bills lead 17-0 nothing against the Dolphins and allowed them to take the lead right after half time.  Miami on that day ended up coaching poorly to lose the game to Josh Allen.

 

When you make such mistakes, it usually ends in a loss in the playoffs.  

 

Playoffs are tough...We beat Baltimore on a great play by Tarun Johnson as the Ravens were knocking on the door to take the lead.   

 

The  Bills coaching staff really needs to elevate their game to the next level to compete in the playoffs and win Super Bowls.