Wish they would just sign Klein at lb

[Yantha]

12 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

the fact that Wagner went for 7 tells us Bills have a plan
Right ?

Klein is a smart instinctive player who plays downhill well.
Limited physically and not someone you want trailing a TE or RB out of the back field perhaps.

 But with help he can dissect.
Get me a modern day AJ Klein who can play some laterally and take care of under in zone out of the draft.
But for now ? Keep him until we have his upgrade. in that style of play

 

Klein could be brought back after the draft, if we need to fill out the roster.  I don't see teams jumping up to grab him off the market.  I agree, it would be good to have him back but only if we must...  There's something to be said for continuity, familiarity/chemistry with teammates etc.

[3rdand12]

4 minutes ago, Yantha said:

Klein could be brought back after the draft, if we need to fill out the roster.  I don't see teams jumping up to grab him off the market.  I agree, it would be good to have him back but only if we must...  There's something to be said for continuity, familiarity/chemistry with teammates etc.

He is not going to improve us. Just steady the ship
But at this point I am more concerned about Bills declining because LBs

Edited March 30, 2023 by 3rdand12

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

8 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Before heading into the draft
 

That way it will protect us at least a little bit if the draft doesn’t fall a certain way

 

Klein is by no means as good a replacement for Edmunds but would provide some insurance

 

Then we truly could take the best player available at 27

I agree! Knows the system, produces when he’s on the field. He was a beast in 2021 (5 sacks, 2 FF, and a pick) and for a time I thought he was a better playmaker than Edmunds. One of the better old Carolina players that the Bills brought over. Klein is a good insurance policy so the MLB position isn’t a complete disaster. I think Milano will help cover some deficiencies. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

You got to have a guy that can move a little. I like Klein but it’s just not the right move right now. I want a guy that plays with his hair on fire. I want the rookie year Kiko ish guy in there that just flys around and has zero fear. I’ll even live with a guy that makes mistakes due to over aggression. What drove me nuts with Edmunds was the hesitation. It was like he had to see it before he moved. I want a guy that trusts his instincts and just runs downhill through a play like a refrigerator on wheels. Just play fast and physical and set a tone. Not saying Klein isn’t that type but he’s too old and too slow.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, freddyjj said:

I wonder if McD will now use 3 LBs as a standard run formation?   Using a new LB (Campbell via Draft or Zac Cunningham as FA) and then using Milano and Bernard as OLBs.  In Carolina he often used a 4-3 with Keuchly at MLB and Thomas Davis and Shaq Thompson at OLBs.  

 

In 2017 with Bills he used a 4-3 with Lorax, Preston Brown and/or Humber/Milano.  

 

Yeah, I started a thread with info on that 2017 defense because I thought it might add some insight in how the Bills might try to adjust without their Primo MLB

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah Eric Wood had to learn to control his competitive nature on the field to manage his health.   He had his leg snapped under the weight of a DT that he was unnecessarily trying to win a wrestling match with and also tore his knee up chasing DeMarcus Ware downfield just in hopes of getting a big hit on him when he was clearly of no use to the RB in the play.  

 

Fred Taylor was the other player I've talked about who learned how to stay healthy.   He and his agent gathered data to identify players who had managed to keep themselves healthy and reached out to many of them and found out how they took care of themselves and he modeled his behavior after them and suddenly he went from a 10 game per year average for his first 4 seasons to 15 game per year over his next 5 seasons.

 

Part of the challenge is learning to keep themselves healthy BEFORE they've done irreversible damage.    Hopefully Milano is in that category.     

 

Thanks!

 

So what I saw from Milano in the years where he got injured, was that even if he was out of position he would stick out an arm where he might injure his pec or scurry to get into position to make a hit where he might pull a hammy

 

What I think I've seen the last 2 years is that he's worked on his shoestring tackles, where if he's out of position and can't make a solid hit, he'll just get the guy by the feet and hang on.  (Rapp who we recently signed seems to do the same thing)

 

And, it seems to have worked because (knock wood) he's missed fewer games thelast 2 seasons

 

Now, what I saw a lot last 2 seasons is Milano would slow a guy up and Edmunds would get there (because Milano had slowed the guy) and seal the deal.  Not sure how that dynamic will work without Edmunds - guess we'll find out.

[Snappysnackcakes]

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Then that's a *****-up use of a third round pick, if they intended Bernard as "insurance" for a player at a position which takes 100% of the snaps when healthy.

 

In the last 2 years, since Beane and McDermott gave their "the only thing, and Matt knows this, is availability" before they re-signed him, Milano has played 18 and 17 out of 19 games the last 2 seasons, so possibly he may (as @BADOLBILZ once pointed out Eric Wood and another player whose name escapes me did) have learned how to play a bit more within himself so he lowers his injury risk instead of going balls-to-the-wall every play.  Time will tell.  I believe I've seen changes.

 

Anyway: Logically, a third round pick should be used on a player you intend to see the field regularly as a starter or as a backup at a position where rotation is expected every game, not on a backup to see the field 3 games in 2 seasons.  That's where you draft a guy in the late rounds. 

 

Look at our other 3rd round picks:

2018: Harrison Phillips was a backup but at a position where McD is married to a rotation.  He saw 38% of the snaps in 16 games his rookie year and was starting to see more before his ACL year 2.  41% his 3rd year, 55% his 4th.  He's a backup, but at a position where backups see 1/3 to 1/2 of the snaps every game, and they moved on when it was clear he wasn't good enough to start for them.  Left in FA.  Now starting for Minn, a playoff team.

2019: Devin Singletary, starter at position where McD is married to rotation.  67% of the snaps his rookie year, 62% overall.  Left in FA.

          Dawson Knox, starter.  64% his rookie year, 87% and 80% his last 2 seasons, Extended.

2020:Zach Moss, backup at a position with rotation, 45% of the snaps his rookie year, 42% of the 2nd year. Traded because he wasn't working out

2021: Spencer Brown, starting at RT.  Whether he should be or not is another question, but the intent was clearly to start him.  Like John Miller, our 2015 3rd round G who has since started for 2 other teams, Brown can play in the NFL, just maybe not at the top level we want, so perhaps an upgrade is needed.

 

The point is, while a 3rd round pick is not a sure bet as a starter or a long-term building block, it better be used on a player who will see the field regularly. 

 

I would say before 2022, the Bills were 4 out of 5 in drafting a player who can see the field regularly with their 3rd round pick, with Zach Moss as a bust.  2 out of 4 in getting a player who starts for them, with the jury still out on #5 (Spencer Brown).  That's actually pretty good - success rate in the 3rd I think is 20 or 30% league wide.

 

And there's this:  Last year, we went into the regular season with a former 5th round pick (traded a 1st) at #1 WR, a 4th round pick as #2, and 2 5th round picks (McKenzie and Shakir) as the #3 WR.  WR, one of the highest paid, highest value skill positions in the draft with most ROI to get high production from draft picks.

 

Yeah, No.  If the Bills drafted Bernard with the idea he would back up Milano and be a depth piece at LB, that was a terrible use of a 3rd round pick, especially a guy who Lance Zierlein of NFL.com forecast as a 5th round pick.

 

I mean, maybe you're right, Lord knows his lone start last season was NOT promising, but I hope not.  Dylan Parham, who started every game for Las Vegas at G last season, was drafted one pick later than Bernard.  Parham did OK as a run blocker and struggled in pass protection, but then, so did our FA signing Saffold.  So it's not as though there wasn't a guy on the board they could draft and try to develop as a starter.

 

Man, I didn’t want to mess up anyone’s day!!  If you look back at the roster at that time, Milano had missed some time with soft tissue injuries. We also didn’t have a lot of holes in the roster, meaning if they “loved” someone, they had the right to reach, at that point in the draft. The kid was a reach at the time and still looks like they schitt the bed on that pick. That’s just the way I saw it at the time, and I would stand by my opinion, if I were to have an honest conversation with the personnel department. (Yeah…that’s gonna happen, Snappy)

[Mr. WEO]

no more 1 year contracts left to be had???

 

Did the owners meeting cap these at 80% of any roster?

[BADOLBILZ]

50 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Thanks!

 

So what I saw from Milano in the years where he got injured, was that even if he was out of position he would stick out an arm where he might injure his pec or scurry to get into position to make a hit where he might pull a hammy

 

What I think I've seen the last 2 years is that he's worked on his shoestring tackles, where if he's out of position and can't make a solid hit, he'll just get the guy by the feet and hang on.  (Rapp who we recently signed seems to do the same thing)

 

And, it seems to have worked because (knock wood) he's missed fewer games thelast 2 seasons

 

Now, what I saw a lot last 2 seasons is Milano would slow a guy up and Edmunds would get there (because Milano had slowed the guy) and seal the deal.  Not sure how that dynamic will work without Edmunds - guess we'll find out.

 

 

Yeah things like that are the quiet reason why some players stay healthy and others can not.   People around the league preach "100% injury rate" to brush off 100% of injury criticism....... because random things still happen........but there are ways to avoid many injuries.   As discussed in his re-signing thread......Jordan Phillips is a good example of someone who has a knack for doing unnecessary dumb sh*t that gets himself hurt.   His hamstring injury and his shoulder injury last season both happened unnecessarily.  

[Marcus Aurelius]

10 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

But my German speaking relatives keep yelling "He's Little!" 🤔

Very interestink ... but schtupid

[harmonkillebrew]

Klein will be available if we miss out on the guy we want in the draft

 

At this point, I'm expecting we trade up to get Drew Sanders

[Punching Bag]

3 hours ago, freddyjj said:

I wonder if McD will now use 3 LBs as a standard run formation?   Using a new LB (Campbell via Draft or Zac Cunningham as FA) and then using Milano and Bernard as OLBs.  In Carolina he often used a 4-3 with Keuchly at MLB and Thomas Davis and Shaq Thompson at OLBs.  

 

In 2017 with Bills he used a 4-3 with Lorax, Preston Brown and/or Humber/Milano.  

 

Lorax was partly used because he could line up as extra lineman giving different looks. 

Lorenzo Alexander "One Man Gang" could do a lot of different things with an AP2 list, AFC Player of the month & Pro Bowl berth 1st year with Bills. Bills were best at utilizing him.  I hope they can find someone like him.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

We'll probably sign him later

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 hours ago, dorquemada said:

 

That was my impression too.  Once he got situated I thought he played well, and if the choice is sign Klein and draft OL vs having to draft a MLB high, then i'd def take the former

 

I think Klein has a role, but don't think it's to be the starting LB in the Bills Defense.  Seems their scheme is based on that guy clogging the middle on pass plays and reducing the passing lanes. 

 

Or maybe as someone stated the other day, the plan is to go with 3 safeties and 3 CB's on passing downs and they signed the new safety for that?

 

But the nice thing about both Edmunds and Johnson is they could play both pass and run downs so weren't giving anything away to the offense based on who was in on the play.   Putting Klein out there says we're playing to stop the run.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Snappysnackcakes said:

Man, I didn’t want to mess up anyone’s day!!  If you look back at the roster at that time, Milano had missed some time with soft tissue injuries. We also didn’t have a lot of holes in the roster, meaning if they “loved” someone, they had the right to reach, at that point in the draft. The kid was a reach at the time and still looks like they schitt the bed on that pick. That’s just the way I saw it at the time, and I would stand by my opinion, if I were to have an honest conversation with the personnel department. (Yeah…that’s gonna happen, Snappy)

 

I guess “not a lot of hoes” is where we’ll have to agree to disagree.  We went into last season, IMO, not having done enough on the OL. Basically, added Rodger Saffold coming off a shoulder injury and that’s it.  We also went into the season on hope that Gabe Davis and McKenzie would work out as starters and that Crowder would stay healthy.

 

I see those as holes, and think they could productively have added a G or a WR to compete vs. reaching on a LB.

 

I can’t disagree with your assessment that he looked like a reach at the time and needs to be shown to be different.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Beck Water

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Joe Marino covered this today. 

 

His review was true to his style, nothing was earth shattering, but after studying Bernard against the Jets and Dodson against the Browns, its the same thing for both of them.

 

Those guys are too small to play MLB. 

 

The 40 looks pretty good on paper because they weigh less, and otherwise they are decent athletes.

 

However, Bernard gets swallowed by blocks, and Dodson has stiff hips and can only run in a straight line. 

 

Spector was a special teamer for 2-years at Clemson, and profiled then as a try hard backup kind of player in the NFL. 

 

With only Drew Sanders and Jack Campbell having the required size to have enough range to cover, I think that's our 1st Round pick. You add in the McDermott factor, and this notion that this WR class is weak. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

13 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

But my German speaking relatives keep yelling "He's Little!" 🤔

Ja, und auch nicht sehr schnell!! 🤷🏼‍♂️

[JerseyBills]

9 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Can Bernard get bigger? 

 

Because in addition to seemingly being out of place, at 225 pounds he looked like a Safety in the middle of the defense. 

 

We've seen this over the years as Bills fans with guys like Marcus Buggs, John Digiorgio, Alvin Bowen, Nic Harris, John Wendling, Keith Ellison, Coy Wire, kind of small converted safeties masquerading as linebackers. 

 

Add Taylor Rapp to that list

[Bookie Man]

Not sure would be an upgrade over what we have now. 

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I think Klein has a role, but don't think it's to be the starting LB in the Bills Defense.  Seems their scheme is based on that guy clogging the middle on pass plays and reducing the passing lanes. 

 

Or maybe as someone stated the other day, the plan is to go with 3 safeties and 3 CB's on passing downs and they signed the new safety for that?

 

But the nice thing about both Edmunds and Johnson is they could play both pass and run downs so weren't giving anything away to the offense based on who was in on the play.   Putting Klein out there says we're playing to stop the run.

 

AJ isn't a run only like one of the LBs we used to have.

 

He got 4 interceptions and he was not playing run-first defense.

I am suspecting Coach McD will be making changes to his defense and if AJ Klein is kept it will not take so long to adapt him to his defense.

Wade surprised upcoming opponent by changing from 4-3 to 3-4 defense (or was it 3-4 to 4-3?) after injuries occurring between weeks.

 

A.J . Klein intercepts the Cam Newton pass | Bills vs. Panthers

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/a-j-klein-intercepts-the-cam-newton-pass-bills-vs-panthers

 

A.J. Klein: Pick and roll - Carolina Panthers

https://www.google.com/search?q=A.J.+Klein+NFL+interception&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS972US973&sxsrf=APwXEdfNFr8bEv6lry02MV5GfoxWF58gHA:1680234455104&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjVwteOoYX-AhWAFFkFHVUqBvIQ0pQJegQIBhAI&biw=786&bih=501&dpr=2#:~:text=A.J. Klein%3A Pick and roll - Carolina Panthers

 

Impact Player of the Game: A.J. Klein

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/gabe-s-collision-impact-player-of-the-game-a-j-klein

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freddyjj]

9 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Lorax was partly used because he could line up as extra lineman giving different looks. 

Lorenzo Alexander "One Man Gang" could do a lot of different things with an AP2 list, AFC Player of the month & Pro Bowl berth 1st year with Bills. Bills were best at utilizing him.  I hope they can find someone like him.

Perhaps Sanders from ARK can play that role.  

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I wonder if there is any chance whatsoever that Spector factors in. The guy actually played pretty well in pre season. I’m not looking for this to be plan A but it might not be crazy.

[3rdand12]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:08 PM, Beck Water said:

 

Thanks!

 

So what I saw from Milano in the years where he got injured, was that even if he was out of position he would stick out an arm where he might injure his pec or scurry to get into position to make a hit where he might pull a hammy

 

What I think I've seen the last 2 years is that he's worked on his shoestring tackles, where if he's out of position and can't make a solid hit, he'll just get the guy by the feet and hang on.  (Rapp who we recently signed seems to do the same thing)

 

And, it seems to have worked because (knock wood) he's missed fewer games thelast 2 seasons

 

Now, what I saw a lot last 2 seasons is Milano would slow a guy up and Edmunds would get there (because Milano had slowed the guy) and seal the deal.  Not sure how that dynamic will work without Edmunds - guess we'll find out.

You typed scurry , in a football forum
God loves you for just that !
 

If players can slow or redirect an OFF with or without the ball to the coverage its a win. No stat for that btw. Just smart football.
Good eyes in regard to Milano. More of that is needed regardless of position. Matt is a superb player who has shown that dedication to the art makes the difference

Excepting the deep safety of course LOL

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I wonder if there is any chance whatsoever that Spector factors in. The guy actually played pretty well in pre season. I’m not looking for this to be plan A but it might not be crazy.

 

Yikes, I'd completely forgotten about Specter!   I had to go back and read his draft profile on NFL.com and was not excited to see that "range" was listed under weaknesses (though, at the same time, it was called "average").   LBs need to be rangy in McD's D.  

 

Strengths

Instinctive and in position most of the time.

Plays with excellent fundamentals.

Rapid-fire diagnosis and reaction to play movement.

Leverages his scrape with speed alterations in his slides.

Quickness to flow and contain the outside run.

Comes to balance and tackles with double leg wrap-ups.

Former safety with smooth drops and weaves in zone.

Target awareness allows for tighter squeeze of the route.

 

Weaknesses

Lean through his lower half.

Won't be a disruptive defender.

Gets jostled around by box traffic.

Lacks ideal length/strength to stack and shed the block.

Needs to become more comfortable playing downhill.

Below-average tackler when it's not in front of him.

Range in coverage is very average.

Lacks twitch to burst and disrupt at the catch point.

 

 

Spector's RAS score (9.12) is actually higher than Bernard's (8.85).  

[DCofNC]

On 3/30/2023 at 10:55 AM, Beck Water said:

 

So, then, what's your explanation of why the Bills drafted Terrel Bernard?

 

We have 4 linebackers not named Milano on the roster.   Matakevich is 30 and has started no games for the Bills, played less than 100 snaps, I Get It, he's there for ST.

Dodson is just turning 25, he's said he feels he can start in this league (I dunno if I agree).

Matakevich was a 7th round pick of Pittsburgh, Dodson undrafted - prime territory for picking up ST guys.

 

Bernard was drafted in the 3rd round.  That is NOT a round where a team should be drafting a guy they don't feel can start.   If it's just "coach speak" to let him compete for the starting MLB gig, why was he drafted in the 3rd?

 

 

 

I think it’s obvious, McDermott was/is a swinger and got tangled up with Bernard’s Aunt, who threatened to put him if they didn’t take her nephew at least 3 rounds earlier than anybody else would.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:46 PM, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Ja, und auch nicht sehr schnell!! 🤷🏼‍♂️

Mit schnitzel und spaetzle?

[Chaos]

On 3/30/2023 at 9:56 AM, John from Riverside said:

 

Then we truly could take the best player available at 27

LB seems to be a devaluated position by the NFL as a whole, but it also seems the Bills coaches, based on their frequent discussion of Edmunds'  importance the last several years, value the LB position much higher than the NFL as whole. 

In either case based on college production and measurables, it is quite possible Jack Campbell is the best player available if he is there at 27.  Separately NFL.com draft tracker grades Drew Sanders as the ninth highest graded player in the draft.  Again it is quite possible the highest graded / BPA on the board at 27 is a linebacker.  Since its also a position of need for the Bills Campbell, or Sanders would be logical choice, and not a reach based on BPA.  It is similar to the dilemma some have with picking an RB at 27, no matter how good "because in the modern NFL" its not an important position.  

My personal bias is to first worry about protecting Allen with the Bills pick at #27.  I also would be happy with certain WR's, LBs, and TE's with that pick.  The Bills will have legitimate solid choices at 27.  

The added complexity is that the percieved drop off from the linebackers who will be available at 27, vs those likely available at 59 seems to be almost a cliff.  (I think the same is true for the WR spot).  But the drop off from 27 to 59 for the remaining OT's, interior lineman or TE's is a more gradual dropoff.  Baring some really lucky trading or incredible draft luck, it is unlikely the Bills can land an instantly starting solid MLB and an instant starting WR2 that is an upgrade on Davis in the draft.  I do think average luck, and using the first pick on LB or WR, gives the Bills the best chance to land three starters in the draft.  Picking OT first (which is my preference) likely means adding a starter at OT, and one other starter for a total of 2. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Mit schnitzel und spaetzle?

No doubt he enjoys both of said delicacies! 😂 I made some spaetzle last weekend coincidentally as a matter of fact…the key is using Amish roll butter (they do butter old school right) for your sauce base. Luckily I have access to a farmer’s market near me that carries that.

[TampaBillsJunkie]

Zack Cunningham, Miles Jack, Kyle Van Noys and Deion Jones are all better than Klein and still out there. 

[John from Riverside]

11 hours ago, TampaBillsJunkie said:

Zack Cunningham, Miles Jack, Kyle Van Noys and Deion Jones are all better than Klein and still out there. 

Deion Jones has been signed

[mrags]

Wondering if this happens jist after the draft if they don’t get another one they like