Conner McGovern to Bills

[Yantha]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Based on? 

Based on how he plays OG.  It’s simple.  He can’t open holes in the running game.  Slightly better in pass protection.  I watch football…..

[Chaos]

5 minutes ago, Yantha said:

Upgrade to Saffold but still should be a backup on the better teams…

This is a silly take. McGovern is clearly among the top 64 Guards in the league. 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, Yantha said:

Upgrade to Saffold but still should be a backup on the better teams…

We had one of the worst O lines in the NFL last season.  The addition of McGovern moves us solidly towards the middle of the pack.  If after all is said and done the Bills O line performs as an average group next season then the Bills offense will be much better, and they were pretty darn good as it was.

 

 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Yantha said:

Based on how he plays OG.  It’s simple.  He can’t open holes in the running game.  Slightly better in pass protection.  I watch football…..

Cleary you don’t. One of the best pass blocking OGs in the league. And don’t give a flying ***** about run blocking this isn’t 1970. And it is still better than Saffold. 

[3rdand12]

7 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We save $6 mm on the cap by cutting Morse.  We all know that if we roll with Morse as our starter next season, a good chunk of his 11mm cap hit will be on the sidelines for a number of games. And if he is on the field, it is likely his play will deteriorate further.  We really should be looking at better options at center. 

yep I know , but he is going to get another year until Bills actually have someone who can replace his ability to call out play.
Bills need to find a guy to replace him and they still need a starting guard or two. Mixed emotions about Bates and Ike.

 What Connor's role becomes i am not sure. But he is a better guard than Saffold right away !

[Yantha]

Ok I don’t watch football.  You win.

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

This is a silly take. McGovern is clearly among the top 64 Guards in the league. 

High praise!  
guys I’m not dissing the signing as bad as the impression is so far.  It’s an upgrade to saffold so the o line is already better.  But we still need a high OG draft pick.  
 

I was hoping for Seumalo.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Yantha

[MrEpsYtown]

8 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

Great stuff. Everybody happy now? This guy is going to be very good for us. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by MrEpsYtown

[3rdand12]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

We had one of the worst O lines in the NFL last season.  The addition of McGovern moves us solidly towards the middle of the pack.  If after all is said and done the Bills O line performs as an average group next season then the Bills offense will be much better, and they were pretty darn good as it was.

 

 

I dont think Allen needs the Best O line if football. Get middle of the pack would be enough for him to take over the rest 

 Go Bills

[BullBuchanan]

32 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

There just might be a chance that you’d have your own impression, rather than just relying on questionable internet content from strangers. There are a lot of opinions out there. 

 

There are a handful of people here whose opinions I really value. They don’t just read internet stuff. They watch football to form opinions. 

But you're a stranger with your own questionable internet content. Why should I trust your opinion watching a handful of plays on your TV over a statistical model built using game tape and extensive knowledge of the game?

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

But you're a stranger with your own questionable internet content. Why should I trust your opinion watching a handful of plays on your TV over a statistical model built using game tape and extensive knowledge of the game?

 

This is where you miss again. I HAVE no opinion this time of year. I’ve shared nothing about what we should do. I don’t know the FA’s, and I don’t know the draft class. I come here to learn this time of year. There are some people who have some opinions I value more than others. 

 

 

.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Augie

[Royale with Cheese]

42 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yup. Every snap he has ever played has been watched and evaluated by experts  much more highly skilled and trained than any of us. Watching him play does nothing to provide a useful evaluation of his abilities, unless you're claiming that you're a better talent evaluator.

I actually watched a good handful of cowboys games last year, but never even knew the guy existed until an hour ago. I still really dislike the move and probably have a more valid reason for it than watching him play.

 

You're funny.

 

One.  

You never heard of this guy until an hour ago yet you already knew his reputation by all these experts that are highly skilled at talent evaluation?  How is that possible?

I would ask for proof, like a link where its wide known that he is an average pass blocker and terrible run blocker but I know you're making that up.  You just want to B word about the move.

 

And two.  So every snap that he has every played has been watched and evaluated by experts much more high skilled and trained than any of us.  That's true.

Does that include Beane and our scouting staff?  Unless you're claiming you're a better talent evaluator than the Bills Front Office. 

14 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

But you're a stranger with your own questionable internet content. Why should I trust your opinion watching a handful of plays on your TV over a statistical model built using game tape and extensive knowledge of the game?

 

Where is the content on this model?  Show us how you have this knowledge.

 

Do the Bills FO not watch game tape?

[BullBuchanan]

12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You're funny.

 

One.  

You never heard of this guy until an hour ago yet you already knew his reputation by all these experts that are highly skilled at talent evaluation?  How is that possible?

I would ask for proof, like a link where its wide known that he is an average pass blocker and terrible run blocker but I know you're making that up.  You just want to B word about the move.

 

And two.  So every snap that he has every played has been watched and evaluated by experts much more high skilled and trained than any of us.  That's true.

Does that include Beane and our scouting staff?  Unless you're claiming you're a better talent evaluator than the Bills Front Office. 

 

Where is the content on this model?  Show us how you have this knowledge.

 

Do the Bills FO not watch game tape?

One: ask and you shall receive - https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/connor-mcgovern/41714

 

Two - The Bills have proven under Beane to be mediocre talent evaluators. There is one all-pro on our team and he was drafted by Beane's predecessor. Beane's only significant draft hit int he upper rounds was Allen with a possible on Edmunds if you like him as a player. In FA we've got a lot more bad than good. Happy to debate that for the nth time if that's something you disagree with it.

As for the content of the model, here you go: https://www.pff.com/grades

As for if the Bills watch game tape or not, it's hard to say. You'd like to believe they do, but going by the fact that we almost never change our gameplan, and seem shocked when other teams mix it up on us, It's far from a given.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BullBuchanan

[Royale with Cheese]

10 hours ago, Einstein said:

 
I researched him extensively and I don’t know how anyone can say he’s not very good. The Ravens have an award for best linemen of the game. Powers won it 8 times last season. 

 

He’s also pretty NASTY and I like that. In college he told a reporter “I love taking a grown mans dream and just crushing it”. We need braulers like that on our team.

 

Speaking of PFF, they show his blocking got BETTER after Lamar got injured and went out.

 

I don't care about PFF grades.  You 

 

I'm not taking a shot at you just to take a shot....but you had Allen Robinson as a top 10 WR after your research.  Robinson was terrible and not even in the top 50.

 

You had Jeffrey Simmons as a better defensive player than TJ Watt, Myles Garrett, Micah Parsons, Nick Bosa, Chris Jones....

 

The Titans were a more talented team than the Bills.

 

You have to be open to the idea that your opinions aren't infallible.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[starrymessenger]

McGovern is outstanding in pass pro. Though tall for a guard he is great at keeping his pad level low to gain leverage, uses his hands extremely well, maintains an even, level base, anchors well, makes excellent decisions when having to decide which of two gaps to cover, is overall technically sound (see Cover 1). Likely only average in run blocking but clearly well above in pass pro. I bet he (and his agent) are looking two or three years down the road when they may reasonably expect him to be signing a bigger deal at 27-28 yrs old. Interested in seeing his use as a fullback/blocking TE. We do some of that already.

Edited March 14, 2023 by starrymessenger

[HappyDays]

 

[Royale with Cheese]

35 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

One: ask and you shall receive - https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/connor-mcgovern/41714

 

Two - The Bills have proven under Beane to be mediocre talent evaluators. There is one all-pro on our team and he was drafted by Beane's predecessor. Beane's only significant draft hit int he upper rounds was Allen with a possible on Edmunds if you like him as a player. In FA we've got a lot more bad than good. Happy to debate that for the nth time if that's something you disagree with it.

As for the content of the model, here you go: https://www.pff.com/grades

As for if the Bills watch game tape or not, it's hard to say. You'd like to believe they do, but going by the fact that we almost never change our gameplan, and seem shocked when other teams mix it up on us, It's far from a given.

 

Don't skirt the question.  Do you think PFF is a better talent evaluator than the Bills FO?  You obviously do because you think PFF is gospel.

 

Your proof that it's "well known" about his scouting report is one PFF report?  That's seriously what you're using?

 

PFF is infallible.  They never miss.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-denver-broncos-trade-seattle-seahawks-qb-russell-wilson-2022

 

Wilson is my fantasy QB7 ahead of 2022, behind only Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow at the moment. Jokes about Russ being the third-best QB in his own division aside: the Broncos are suddenly a legit title contender and figure to flirt with the league's top-10 scoring offenses for however long Russ wants to keep cooking.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/24/travis-kelces-stunning-accusation-about-pro-football-focus-grades/

“The thing is that these PFF graders are grading off of what they think the play should be,” Travis Kelce said. “Whereas we might have a specific fundamental or we might have a specific call that takes us into something else and the play doesn’t work. … The graders don’t necessarily know the objective of the play and the fundamentals that we’re being taught.”

 

“I also think that there [are] agents out here paying guys to get higher grades than others,” he said. “I won’t name any names.”

 

Conclusion:

"PFF knows more about football than the Kelce's." - BullBuchanan.

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[MrEpsYtown]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Seems like a good fair deal to me. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 
I researched him extensively and I don’t know how anyone can say he’s not very good. The Ravens have an award for best linemen of the game. Powers won it 8 times last season. 

 

He’s also pretty NASTY and I like that. In college he told a reporter “I love taking a grown mans dream and just crushing it”. We need braulers like that on our team.

 

Speaking of PFF, they show his blocking got BETTER after Lamar got injured and went out.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/24/travis-kelces-stunning-accusation-about-pro-football-focus-grades/

 

“The thing is that these PFF graders are grading off of what they think the play should be,” Travis Kelce said. “Whereas we might have a specific fundamental or we might have a specific call that takes us into something else and the play doesn’t work. … The graders don’t necessarily know the objective of the play and the fundamentals that we’re being taught.”

That’s a common criticism of the site, but Travis later added to it.

“I also think that there [are] agents out here paying guys to get higher grades than others,” he said. “I won’t name any names.”

[BullBuchanan]

30 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Don't skirt the question.  Do you think PFF is a better talent evaluator than the Bills FO?  You obviously do because you think PFF is gospel.

 

Your proof that it's "well known" about his scouting report is one PFF report?  That's seriously what you're using?

 

PFF is infallible.  They never miss.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-denver-broncos-trade-seattle-seahawks-qb-russell-wilson-2022

 

Wilson is my fantasy QB7 ahead of 2022, behind only Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow at the moment. Jokes about Russ being the third-best QB in his own division aside: the Broncos are suddenly a legit title contender and figure to flirt with the league's top-10 scoring offenses for however long Russ wants to keep cooking.

 

Didn't skirt the question - provided you with an explicit response. do with it what you will.

I don't know if they're better than the bills or not for sure, but I'm leaning towards yes.

The PFF report I shared is not "one" report. It's a measurement of every play of every snap. If you read the grading criteria you would have known that. The yearly score is just a composite score of all snaps. each game has its own separate grades you can view.

As for PFF being infallible, their grading system is open for all to see. Yes, there are human beings at the helm measuring grades so by definition it is fallible like any assessment involving humans. However, it's a scientifically sound and thorough process that checks just about all the boxes you could hope to check in making a subjective analysis as objective in aggregate as possible

As for your Russel Wilson take, that's an op-ed, not a statistical analysis. I never referenced their op-ed material as a basis for my opinion. It's an irrelevant inclusion int his discussion. If you want to prove a point that their gradings have a high probability of being incorrect, try doing that instead.

Happy to keep doing this with you.

8 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/24/travis-kelces-stunning-accusation-about-pro-football-focus-grades/

 

“The thing is that these PFF graders are grading off of what they think the play should be,” Travis Kelce said. “Whereas we might have a specific fundamental or we might have a specific call that takes us into something else and the play doesn’t work. … The graders don’t necessarily know the objective of the play and the fundamentals that we’re being taught.”

That’s a common criticism of the site, but Travis later added to it.

“I also think that there [are] agents out here paying guys to get higher grades than others,” he said. “I won’t name any names.”

Again, this is covered in the grading methodology if you cared to have read it. Kelce is making baseless assumptions without supporting evidence. Also, while football has a lot going on, it's a game filled with knowns. There are wrinkles in how each play is designed, but it's not exactly common for a player to have a responsibility on a play that's never happened before.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BullBuchanan

[Royale with Cheese]

13 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Didn't skirt the question - provided you with an explicit response. do with it what you will.

I don't know if they're better than the bills or not for sure, but I'm leaning towards yes.

The PFF report I shared is not "one" report. It's a measurement of every play of every snap. If you read the grading criteria you would have known that. The yearly score is just a composite score of all snaps. each game has its own separate grades you can view.

As for PFF being infallible, their grading system is open for all to see. Yes, there are human beings at the helm measuring grades so by definition it is fallible like any assessment involving humans. However, it's a scientifically sound and thorough process that checks just about all the boxes you could hope to check in making a subjective analysis as objective in aggregate as possible

As for your Russel Wilson take, that's an op-ed, not a statistical analysis. I never referenced their op-ed material as a basis for my opinion. It's an irrelevant inclusion int his discussion. If you want to prove a point that their gradings have a high probability of being incorrect, try doing that instead.

Happy to keep doing this with you.

 

I just read the two stupidest sentences in the history of the internet (bolded).  There is a ton of applicants too....

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/24/travis-kelces-stunning-accusation-about-pro-football-focus-grades/

 

“The thing is that these PFF graders are grading off of what they think the play should be,” Travis Kelce said. “Whereas we might have a specific fundamental or we might have a specific call that takes us into something else and the play doesn’t work. … The graders don’t necessarily know the objective of the play and the fundamentals that we’re being taught.”

Edited March 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Warriorspikes51]

 

[Airseven]

Beane sure loves his positional flexibility.

 

Like Bates, this guy is better suited as a versatile depth piece not a starter.

[Warriorspikes51]

Just now, Airseven said:

Beane sure loves his positional flexibility.

 

Like Bates, this guy is better suited as a versatile depth piece not a starter.

He was a good pass blocker in Dallas

[Hsker4life]

1 hour ago, Yantha said:

Based on how he plays OG.  It’s simple.  He can’t open holes in the running game.  Slightly better in pass protection.  I watch football…..

He is significantly better at pass protection. He’s one of the Top 20 guards in pass pro. 
 

Be more accurate. 

[Motor26]

I just don’t get these middling signings. Why not just go all in for a top guy? They just created 32 million in space by restructuring Allen and Von. Hope they go after one of the top right tackles and draft an IOL early.

[transplantbillsfan]

Erik Turner at Cover 1 likes him

 

[Royale with Cheese]

18 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Again, this is covered in the grading methodology if you cared to have read it. Kelce is making baseless assumptions without supporting evidence. Also, while football has a lot going on, it's a game filled with knowns. There are wrinkles in how each play is designed, but it's not exactly common for a player to have a responsibility on a play that's never happened before.

 

"Baseless assumption?"  You don't know the play or the check offs or the audibles.  They do not know the entire responsibility of the player.  Neither does the PFF grader which is what Kelce is saying.

 

So now its with you:

PFF > Bills

PFF > Kelce's

 

Where's your supporting evidence?  A PFF link where you don't have a subscription to isn't evidence lol.  

[Einstein]

37 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/24/travis-kelces-stunning-accusation-about-pro-football-focus-grades/

 

“The thing is that these PFF graders are grading off of what they think the play should be,” Travis Kelce said. “Whereas we might have a specific fundamental or we might have a specific call that takes us into something else and the play doesn’t work. … The graders don’t necessarily know the objective of the play and the fundamentals that we’re being taught.”

That’s a common criticism of the site, but Travis later added to it.

“I also think that there [are] agents out here paying guys to get higher grades than others,” he said. “I won’t name any names.”

 

There are football players who say the earth is flat. I’m hardly going to take one random players opinion over the 32 NFL teams (including the Bills) who pay PFF for their service.

[LEBills]

11 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Erik Turner at Cover 1 likes him

 

Nice video as usual by Cover 1. McGovern had some nice reps against some very good DTs in that video

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

There are football players who say the earth is flat. I’m hardly going to take one random players opinion over the 32 NFL teams (including the Bills) who pay PFF for their service.

 

Do you honestly think the Bills pay PFF for player grades?  Why pay a front office millions to evaluate talent when you can get a PFF subscription for $12.99 a month?  Why watch so much film on a player when you can just click on a player profile and read about it on PFF?

 

Eric Wood was on WGR and talked about how he's skeptical about PFF for basically the same reason as Lang described.  Wood said he was pulling and didn't get to his block quick enough and was graded negatively.  He didn't get to his block because the guard got pushed into the backfield and he had to reroute last second.

He actually should have been graded positively because he didn't get caught up and was still able to get at least a little body the guy.  But PFF said he was late and didn't clear out the blocker like he was supposed to.  He mentioned the OL coaches grades and the PFF grades would always be drastically different.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/tj-lang-pro-football-focus-is-absolute-garbage/

 

"But they don't know anything about identification, what offensive linemen are supposed to do. They think if a guy blitzes off the edge, that's automatically the tackle's block, but a lot of times that's not the case. They've always graded me well, which I don't mind, but I still don't respect it," Lang said.

Apparently, most NFL players feel the same way.

"I know most of the guys that I've played with absolutely hate it, just because it's started to gain so much steam now where Sunday Night Football, Thursday Night Football, they're actually showing stats up there for the players," said Lang. "I think it's absolute garbage and I think most players do."

[hondo in seattle]

55 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

There are football players who say the earth is flat. I’m hardly going to take one random players opinion over the 32 NFL teams (including the Bills) who pay PFF for their service.

 

 

We've heard players say that the grades they get from their position coaches are often different than the grades they get from PFF.   Teams may have subscriptions to Sports Illustrated, that doesn't mean they agree with every opinion it puts out.  Same with PFF.

 

I really doubt that Beans trusts PFF more than his own pro scouts.   I think the main reason the Bills use PFF is for negotiations when the PFF grade might suggest a lower market price.

 

[Chandler#81]

 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Airseven said:

Beane sure loves his positional flexibility.

 

Like Bates, this guy is better suited as a versatile depth piece not a starter.

I’m trying to figure out if you have ever said anything positive on this site like ever, I mean like ever

Looks like a quality, young guard who has gotten plenty of starter snaps who has flexibility to play three different positions

 

Doesn’t commit holding penalties

Doesn’t give up sacks
 

And came at $2 million cheaper than the name recognition guards then Ben Powers got the ridiculous contract

 

People stop looking at the name on the back of the jersey look at their physical traits and their production. This is what team does, so this is what you should do.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Erik Turner at Cover 1 likes him

 

 

I mean Erik likes almost every move the Bills make. He is a massive homer. I bet there is a puff video last year of Roger Saffold blowing people up in the run game. 

 

McGovern is a better get than Saffold though. He is more solid starter than the lock it down guard I'd have hoped for but they need to prioritise protecting Josh Allen and McGovern has a good anchor in pass pro. 

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, LEBills said:

Nice video as usual by Cover 1. McGovern had some nice reps against some very good DTs in that video

 

 

Yeah, it was a great video. I just came here to post it if it hadn't been posted here.

 

Didn't know much about him, to be honest. 

 

I wish Cover1 had posted a few run reps, but he showed a lot of protection reps against some really strong defenders and McGovern looked good.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Thurman#1

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Motor26 said:

I just don’t get these middling signings. Why not just go all in for a top guy? They just created 32 million in space by restructuring Allen and Von. Hope they go after one of the top right tackles and draft an IOL early.

I think you just answered your own question
We didn’t create $32 million in cab space we were in the hole in cab space we signed some guys and we did some restructures that leave us at what 15 million max

You have to make that money stretch that means you have to trust your scout in department, to find legit players names

I am way less concerned by the name on the back of the jersey that I am about the physical attribute make up of the player

We still have positions that we need to fortify

[Gunsgoodtime]

Amen.   Whatever you said.

 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean Erik likes almost every move the Bills make. He is a massive homer. I bet there is a puff video last year of Roger Saffold blowing people up in the run game. 

 

Joe Marino liked it, too.

 

As for the Saffold thing... most would agree that Saffold was pretty good before this year, so you might be right about the "puff video," but that wouldn't necessarily be an indictment so much on Cover 1 as Saffold's free fall this season.

 

Are you sure this isn't just an ego driven post trying to slam others who do what you do?

[Malazan]

4 hours ago, Motor26 said:

I just don’t get these middling signings. Why not just go all in for a top guy? They just created 32 million in space by restructuring Allen and Von. Hope they go after one of the top right tackles and draft an IOL early.

 

..because you failed math

[GreggTX]

6 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

He was a good pass blocker in Dallas

 

He was an average pass blocker in Dallas and a terrible run blocker. I pray we don't have to play him. I'll say this for him however. He's no worse than Bates. If he's a starter along with Morse and Brown, we will again have a bottom 6 OL. I guess this comes from having a defensive HC. OBD just doesn't see any value in a good OL apparently. Both McGovern and Bates should be backups.