Spencer Brown

[Back2Buff]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

I'm guessing those predictions are based on Dawkins - McGovern - Morse - Bates - Brown?

 

On the bright side, it goes to show that we're a hit at RT away from a good pass pro OL.  

 

Downside, everything said by the FO would lead us to expect Brown to be the starter next year. 

 

Yes, it was based upon the line you said.

 

I feel like I am getting gaslite every time Beane talks about Brown.  Like he is telling me the exact opposite from what I'm seeing.  Brown is too tall and skinny.  He spends way too much time on the ground.  His back will always be an issue with the way he plays.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Where did you get this information from? How far back does it go?

 

I've been putting data from different sites up in this thread.

 

 

[mrags]

17 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

I agree with you about both Edmunds and Dawkins.  The contract that Chicago gave Edmunds was laughable.  We should bring in at least one solid tackle to compete with Dawkins and Brown.  Competition is important.  Unless you are the best at what you do (see Anthony Munoz, Tony Bosselli, Larry Allen, even Jason Peters in his prime) guys need competition to raise their game.  The Bills seem to shy away from this for some reason.  

Careful what you say, or @Royale with Cheese will post a meme about you. I know. It’s terrifying assuming it’s coming from someone that looks like this. 
 

[Yantha]

I think we could draft an OT that would compete to start at RT, and at worst, become our "upgraded" swing tackle.

Fingers crossed.

 

Brown needs upgrading, and I had hoped we would address RT in the free agency.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

Careful what you say, or @Royale with Cheese will post a meme about you. I know. It’s terrifying assuming it’s coming from someone that looks like this. 
 

 

BWORD...that guy ain't Asian.

[mrags]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

BWORD...that guy ain't Asian.

oh, me so sawry 

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Sadly, I feel the same way about Gabe. Beane loves him too. 

 

 

 

Agree...Beane seems confident in him, at least in his pressers.  Although he does acknowledge it wasn't the season expected of Gabe, but I think Beane see's it more as injuries earlier in the season impacted him and he just didn't bounce back fully from that.  

 

For me, its a weird spot to be in because last offseason I was very high on Gabe, and not only because of the KC game.  I had been saying the offense was clicking better with Gabe getting more reps and Sanders getting less ever since Sanders reg season injury opened the door for that.  I really felt like a break out year was on the docket for 2022 and he was of the players I was most excited to see in his new starter role as the season opened.  

 

But wow, did he just not come close to expectations.  People talk mostly about the low catch rate and drops, but his struggles were so much more than that.  He really struggled to get separation on his routes, and a lot of his production relied on a big play or Josh extending plays that allowed Gabe to finally get open.  But not winning on routes was a big issue at WR for us this year, because it kept Allen from getting the ball out faster and our OL sucked too much to hold protections.  

 

Then there were the concentration and focus issues where he would run a route short of the sticks, or have plenty of room to get his feet down in bounds and not come close to doing it.  And you could see the dejection on his face when he made mistakes, like he was struggling with the mental aspect of the game.  

 

I am not ready to write him off, but this year is the first year since Gabe has been here where I went into an offseason concerned about him and one has to wonder if he can rebound and get back to being an ascending player or if he has already hit his ceiling.  

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, mrags said:

oh, me so sawry 

 

You cried when BTS broke up didn't you?

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You cried when BTS broke up didn't you?

[teef]

of course you #######s made this weird.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Here are the main consensus I saw:

 

2BD: He’s trash, worst in NFL, get rid of him.

 

Guys who watch film and have scouted him for many years: Didn’t play his senior season, up and down rookie year during Covid, lost last offseason due to back injury, struggled mightily until the tail end of 2022. This is his first full, healthy pro offseason. Brown has the tools and work ethic to put it all together.

 

Beane: We have faith in his development.

 

I know who’s opinions I value.

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, teef said:

of course you #######s made this weird.

 

4 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Here are the main consensus I saw:

 

2BD: He’s trash, worst in NFL, get rid of him.

 

Guys who watch film and have scouted him for many years: Didn’t play his senior season, up and down rookie year during Covid, lost last offseason due to back injury, struggled mightily until the tail end of 2022. This is his first full, healthy pro offseason. Brown has the tools and work ethic to put it all together.

 

Beane: We have faith in his development.

 

I know who’s opinions I value.

 

Come on...

[gobills404]

7 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Didn’t play his senior season, up and down rookie year during Covid, lost last offseason due to back injury, struggled mightily until the tail end of 2022. This is his first full, healthy pro offseason. Brown has the tools and work ethic to put it all together.

I believe in all of this completely and would not be shocked at all if he made a big leap this offseason and became a quality starter. Doesn’t change the fact that he sucked hot booty cheeks this past season and going into next season without adding a RT that doesn’t suck would be incredibly foolish.

[Rocky Landing]

Brown is one of those players that I really wanted to succeed. I loved his story coming out of N. Iowa, his loyalty to his team, and the kind of teammate he was/is. Loved his aggressiveness, and sheer power. Off the field, he is one of those guys that really fits the Bills' culture that McD/Beane have been creating, and I'm definitely one of those homer fans who likes to root for the man, as well as the player. 

 

But the O-line as a unit was at times a hot mess last season. IMO, Ryan Bates also did not live up to expectations, and I wonder if (as many seem to believe) he's a better fit on the left? It also makes me wonder if Brown would have performed better with a more solid guard standing next to him? I also wonder how much of his struggles came from changing over to Kromer's system/scheme? This TC will be huge for him.

[MJS]

17 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

2BD: He’s trash, worst in NFL, get rid of him.

You know, 99% of fans, including on here, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to oline. Even the ones who claim to are full of bologna.

 

I've been watching football all my life, I played football in middle school and high school, and I watch many different teams besides the Bills. I don't really talk about individual oline performance because I don't know what I am talking about.

 

Fans get fed lines from a few talking heads or a few loud fans and then just parrot them. Nearly all of them have never watched a single minute of coaches film, much less oline film.

 

All in all, fan opinion on olinemen could not be any more worthless. There are a few here who seem to be knowledgeable, but they are still sitting at home on their coaches just like you and me. You have to take the things they say with a grain of salt too.

 

All of that just to say I agree with you. Fans can be silly creatures.

[TheFunPolice]

I'm a huge Spencer Brown fan. Freakish athleticism, gigantic man, mean streak...

 

All in all, what you want in a lineman, IMO. He'll get better as well as he develops as a player. He came in pretty raw but he's showing flashes. 

 

 

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

11 minutes ago, MJS said:

You know, 99% of fans, including on here, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to oline. Even the ones who claim to are full of bologna.

 

I've been watching football all my life, I played football in middle school and high school, and I watch many different teams besides the Bills. I don't really talk about individual oline performance because I don't know what I am talking about.

 

Fans get fed lines from a few talking heads or a few loud fans and then just parrot them. Nearly all of them have never watched a single minute of coaches film, much less oline film.

 

All in all, fan opinion on olinemen could not be any more worthless. There are a few here who seem to be knowledgeable, but they are still sitting at home on their coaches just like you and me. You have to take the things they say with a grain of salt too.

 

All of that just to say I agree with you. Fans can be silly creatures.

 

These are the same people who wanted to get rid of Bass after about 4 games too!

 

And every August state how if the Bills don't keep so and so on the roster, most often an undrafted rookie,  he'll be grabbed up by another team only to see no interest in player.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:15 AM, GunnerBill said:

As a rookie I think what they saw is a run blocking monster with a mean streak who really finishes blocks. The rawness to his pass pro should have been recognised by all. 

 

What they got as a 2nd year guy was no discernable development or refinement as a pass blocker and a regression in the run game. I wonder how much the back surgery and disrupted off season played a part but they need to make sure there is competition for Brown in camp next year. It is a big year for him. He has to solidify his spot or the Bills will be looking to replace him fully in a year from now.

Both Brown and Quessenberry are bad. There's no arguing this. David led 2021 in sacks allowed (11) and the following year as our backup almost destroyed JA. Spencer never improved or showed even small gains with foot quickness.  Unless JSN is sitting there at 27,  you gotta take the best OT on the board.  Yes I know we need an MLB or WR2, but protecting Josh should be top priority.  I'm sick and tired of seeing his pocket collapse in 1.8 seconds. 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Agree...Beane seems confident in him, at least in his pressers.  Although he does acknowledge it wasn't the season expected of Gabe, but I think Beane see's it more as injuries earlier in the season impacted him and he just didn't bounce back fully from that.  

 

For me, its a weird spot to be in because last offseason I was very high on Gabe, and not only because of the KC game.  I had been saying the offense was clicking better with Gabe getting more reps and Sanders getting less ever since Sanders reg season injury opened the door for that.  I really felt like a break out year was on the docket for 2022 and he was of the players I was most excited to see in his new starter role as the season opened.  

 

But wow, did he just not come close to expectations.  People talk mostly about the low catch rate and drops, but his struggles were so much more than that.  He really struggled to get separation on his routes, and a lot of his production relied on a big play or Josh extending plays that allowed Gabe to finally get open.  But not winning on routes was a big issue at WR for us this year, because it kept Allen from getting the ball out faster and our OL sucked too much to hold protections.  

 

Then there were the concentration and focus issues where he would run a route short of the sticks, or have plenty of room to get his feet down in bounds and not come close to doing it.  And you could see the dejection on his face when he made mistakes, like he was struggling with the mental aspect of the game.  

 

I am not ready to write him off, but this year is the first year since Gabe has been here where I went into an offseason concerned about him and one has to wonder if he can rebound and get back to being an ascending player or if he has already hit his ceiling.  

Really nice post Alpha. I too was very excited about Gabe. You pretty much summed up my thoughts as well.

 

It's hard for me not to temper my expectations of Davis. I'd much rather have him be a WR3 where I think he can excell. As a WR2 he wasn't able to beat solid CBs on a consistent basis. I don't see that changing due to his skill set. Imho, the Bills need a legit WR2. 

[Beck Water]

On 2/25/2023 at 7:49 PM, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

For anyone who never had a serious back injury or back surgery, it is no joke.  To return from surgery in a short period of time and compete as a starter in the NFL, is a significant accomplishment.  We rightfully focus on the times he was beaten but we should not completely disregard the times he absolutely destroyed a defender.  There just weren't enough of those plays.

I have thought that quickly getting away from the running game put the o-line at a huge disadvantage in several games.  This made Brown and others look worse than they actually were.  Allen's propensity to hold the ball too long also skews the data.

As many have said over the last few weeks, getting help on the o-line, improving the receiver room, better play calling, and a commitment to running the ball will all work together to create improved offensive performance.  Brown wasn't great but swapping him out isn't the silver bullet that some believe it to be.

 

You make a very fair point here, and one that is not often brought up.

 

Allen "saves" the OL on a number of plays because he can move around in the pocket and take off running, "saving" a sack or a QB hit since once he crosses the LOS he's a runner.

 

But Allen also costs the OL, by passing up the quick short pass in favor of trying to extend the play and wait for something to open up downfield, and the Bills offensive approach of abandoning the run also hurts the OL by allowing the defense to key off on pass pro.

 

Some of the offenses that have the "best" pass protecting OL's also have quick rhythm passing games that get the ball out quickly.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Both Brown and Quessenberry are bad. There's no arguing this. David led 2021 in sacks allowed (11) and the following year as our backup almost destroyed JA. Spencer never improved or showed even small gains with foot quickness.  Unless JSN is sitting there at 27,  you gotta take the best OT on the board.  Yes I know we need an MLB or WR2, but protecting Josh should be top priority.  I'm sick and tired of seeing his pocket collapse in 1.8 seconds. 

 

So am I but I still don't think we have seen Spencer Brown's best football. It is ahead of him IMO. I am not against an OT at #27, and if that guy beats out Brown, so be it. But I wouldn't just throw Brown to the curb yet. There is still talent in there. 

[Beck Water]

38 minutes ago, MJS said:

You know, 99% of fans, including on here, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to oline. Even the ones who claim to are full of bologna.

 

I've been watching football all my life, I played football in middle school and high school, and I watch many different teams besides the Bills. I don't really talk about individual oline performance because I don't know what I am talking about.

 

Fans get fed lines from a few talking heads or a few loud fans and then just parrot them. Nearly all of them have never watched a single minute of coaches film, much less oline film.

 

All in all, fan opinion on olinemen could not be any more worthless. There are a few here who seem to be knowledgeable, but they are still sitting at home on their coaches just like you and me. You have to take the things they say with a grain of salt too.

 

All of that just to say I agree with you. Fans can be silly creatures.

 

99% of statistics are made up

 

Absolutely anything said about football should be taken with a grain of salt, and especially OL play where it's not always clear to the watcher what the assignment was supposed to be, or, what the protection call was and whether it was the correct call for what the defense showed before the snap/whether the defense changed post-snap in a way that defeated it. 

 

That said, we have a double handful of posters here (not all of them post very much) who really do know their football, who really do watch a lot of coaches film, or who really do understand different blocking schemes and what the assignments for each OLman should be in them (and a few who check all 3 boxes).

 

So it's probably mistaken in an equal but opposite way to dismiss everything everyone says as "absolutely no idea what they are talking about" as it is to pay too much attention and take it too seriously

 

JMO and by the way I used to watch a lot of coaches film (not so much since NFL.com ruined it in the US) but I wouldn't put myself in the 1st or 3rd category.

 

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So am I but I still don't think we have seen Spencer Brown's best football. It is ahead of him IMO. I am not against an OT at #27, and if that guy beats out Brown, so be it. But I wouldn't just throw Brown to the curb yet. There is still talent in there. 

 

That's certainly what Brandon Beane believes.

 

I wish they'd add more talent on OL though.  It seems as though the worst that could happen is they'd wind up with a good player they could trade.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Beck Water

[Royale with Cheese]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So am I but I still don't think we have seen Spencer Brown's best football. It is ahead of him IMO. I am not against an OT at #27, and if that guy beats out Brown, so be it. But I wouldn't just throw Brown to the curb yet. There is still talent in there. 

 

Is it his feet or it the game is moving to fast for him mentally right now?

[newcam2012]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So am I but I still don't think we have seen Spencer Brown's best football. It is ahead of him IMO. I am not against an OT at #27, and if that guy beats out Brown, so be it. But I wouldn't just throw Brown to the curb yet. There is still talent in there. 

I agree but the Bills must have a competent tackle to push Brown or step in if he performs poorly. Currently, the Bills are very thin at tackle. Relying on Brown is a pretty scary picture. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by newcam2012

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Is it his feet or it the game is moving to fast for him mentally right now?

 

I think his feet and his balance, but I don't dismiss the fact that his head is still spinning (he hadn't played for a year and it was a huge step up from Northern Iowa) and that if his brain slows down his tecnhique will even out some.

[HOUSE]

Young Spencer is only 25, basically a rookie

 

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

So we will need to watch Bernard this year?

🤷

[Paup 1995MVP]

3 hours ago, mrags said:

Careful what you say, or @Royale with Cheese will post a meme about you. I know. It’s terrifying assuming it’s coming from someone that looks like this. 
 

That's hilarious.  Good old Kip from Napolean Dynamite!  Where is LaFonda?  They were quite the couple.

[Back2Buff]

2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

I'm a huge Spencer Brown fan. Freakish athleticism, gigantic man, mean streak...

 

All in all, what you want in a lineman, IMO. He'll get better as well as he develops as a player. He came in pretty raw but he's showing flashes. 

 

 

 

 

 

Showing flashes is not good as an Olineman.  One missed blocked (which he has many of) and your QB is out for year.

[GreggTX]

I don't get why people are so afraid to admit it. Brown is an amazing athlete with just one major flaw - He can't block. I would be ecstatic if we drafted Dawand Jones, assuming that he has a solid work ethic. This kid just buries DE's. If Brown suddenly comes to life, great. Someone at OT slides over to G and our entire OL starts looking a lot better. Beane has not been terrible at drafting lately, but our overall roster quality has suffered as some high picks have not matched expectations while the Dolphins and Jets, in particular, have fared much better recently. Beane really needs to nail this draft or we could slide backwards a bit in 2023. Our OT, G, MLB, WR, S and TE groups need a major facelift -- We could really use better starters at those first 4 positions and depth at S and TE. I'm not sure what we're going to do at DT. Asking any GM to nail 4 quality starters in a single draft with just the usual draft capital is asking for a miracle. The Jets had the OROY and DROY last year, but that won't happen again any time soon for them. We need help and there's little money in the till. Beane is right to say he can't keep renegotiating contracts because that bill will come due in the future. He created this situation. Let's see if he can recover. I sure hope so.

[GreggTX]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So am I but I still don't think we have seen Spencer Brown's best football. It is ahead of him IMO. I am not against an OT at #27, and if that guy beats out Brown, so be it. But I wouldn't just throw Brown to the curb yet. There is still talent in there. 

 

 

I'd love to see us get a big upgrade at RT as well, but you're right about Brown's potential. I see that he's struggling with "foot quickness" so wouldn't it make sense to move him inside where his biggest flaw is mitigated? He might just make one heck of a G and a rookie RT comes much more affordable than a 26 year old probowler. Just wondering also if his height might actually be an issue at G, but they had Doyle taking snaps at G last year, so I guess it could work.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by GreggTX

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Young Spencer is only 25, basically a rookie

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick was a rookie for 8 seasons.  Brown is just getting started.