Do you still trust the defense at all?

[ArtVandalay]

No

No

Undecided

 

They have done a good job with some talent development, but not with others.  It's a mixed bag but recently not for the better. Tre was an amazing pick and development, Rouseau I like a lot,  Milano excellent, Taron Johnson solid... but between Oliver, Basham, Epenesa, Edmunds, Bernard, just bad job especially Oliver so overrated by this board sometimes dude is merely just another guy low impact undersized DT. Elam has little impact but too early to call. Wallace was solid when he was here. 

 

The last 4 drafts have been pretty bad though, aside from Allen obviously. A guy here or there but very few impact our reliable guys. 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

The defense that showed up week 1 was pretty amazing. Healthy Miller, Phillips really made a difference, with no Tre. Shows you that up front matters most. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, B-Large said:

 

He's a 34 year old guy with 2 ACL tears to the same knee.  That makes me worry a bit, and I'd feel much better if someone had emerged and stepped up this season.  If he has lingering issues next season, we can't have no answers.   

 

I don't think these guys are terrible but something is wrong.  There is talent.  They weren't this bad last year.

 

I like and respect Frazier but it seems we are way too easy to figure out.  We don't get home on the blitz.  QB's know where to go immediately after the snap.

The only game Zack Wilson looked decent in was against us.  Tua lit us up after being embarrassed the week before.  

I think Tyler Boyd said we're "basic" on defense.  That's a gigantic problem.

[Gunsgoodtime]

2 hours ago, damj said:

I trust our defense when the game is on the line slightly less than day old gas station sushi during a mid-august power failure in Arizona

I would take my chances with the Sushi.  

[par73]

Beane press conference was disappointing. He pretty much gave Dorsey and Frazier votes of confidence. All the picks on defense, and it never fails to disappoint. I don't see how this will change (other than 34 year-old Miller-- whenever he returns). Very little cap space for free agents, so they are in a really tough spot.

-

[Gunsgoodtime]

4 minutes ago, par73 said:

Beane press conference was disappointing. He pretty much gave Dorsey and Frazier votes of confidence. All the picks on defense, and it never fails to disappoint. I don't see how this will change (other than 34 year-old Miller-- whenever he returns). Very little cap space for free agents, so they are in a really tough spot.

-

In hindsight the massive aging Miller contract was a bad move.  120m for a 33 year old?  We constantly talk about teams overpaying for an aging Poyer, who is younger than Von, yet they somehow get a pass signing an aging Von.  Its no shock that he is hurt, just like Poyer and Hyde. That contract is going to strap the cap starting right now, and we can't get rid of it.  Fwiw, I was against it when we paid him that massive contract, for the reasons I mentioned above.  I know he played well when he played, but thats kind of my point, when he played.  Where was he during the playoffs?  The same place an aging Hyde and almost Poyer were at.  If you have to not play a player "to preserve him for the playoffs" because of their age, you shouldn't be signing them to massive contracts.  Especially when you have used 2 1st and 2 2nds in the draft recently to rush the passer

[Victory Formation]

No to all three.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

33 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

No

No

Undecided

 

They have done a good job with some talent development, but not with others.  It's a mixed bag but recently not for the better. Tre was an amazing pick and development, Rouseau I like a lot,  Milano excellent, Taron Johnson solid... but between Oliver, Basham, Epenesa, Edmunds, Bernard, just bad job especially Oliver so overrated by this board sometimes dude is merely just another guy low impact undersized DT. Elam has little impact but too early to call. Wallace was solid when he was here. 

 

The last 4 drafts have been pretty bad though, aside from Allen obviously. A guy here or there but very few impact our reliable guys. 

 

2022:

Bernard's barely played so i can't just say he is a bad player.  He is not edmunds replacement though, that i think was clear

Elam seems to have some man coverage chops, mcdermott was on this kid for something all year - effort maybe? defensive responsibilities?  

Benford looked totally solid until he got hit with some injuries.  Isn't fast enough to stick at corner in man though, i think with his size/tackling he would be a good fit at safety with a full offseason.  

Spector hopefully replaces matakevich as a core teamer on a budget

 

2021:

Rousseau - one of the better pass rushers in his class, also a fairly sound run defender with length

Basham - I like him better than AJ.  He's not a good run defender despite having some size on the edge.  Plays with some anger and violence.  Probably a luxury pick in a situation where we knew Wallace was in his last year, knew morse had concussion issues, 

 

2020:

Epenesa - Looking at this similar to Rousseau - first round production but later round tape.  Rousseau has some freak attributes that project though, epenesa is slow and plays small.  Raekwon davis at the nose is what i was hoping for.  Chinn would have been cool too. 

 

2019:

Oliver - Hindsight probably wilkins or lawrence?

Joseph - Never played.  Next 2 LBs off the board are Greenlaw and Van Ginkel.  Pretty big swing and a miss here.  

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Many of us haven't trusted the defense for multiple years. Then we get told to look at their ranking  and say we arent real fans.  The defense has always been a fraud. We all see it. They feast on terrible QB play making the rankings look good. Then they suck when they play physical teams or teams with great QBs. Houston playoff game, Colts, 13 seconds, Miami 3rd string QB...

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

59 minutes ago, B-Large said:

its not good when fans routinely think to themselves "3rd and 19, they're gonna give this up easily".....

 

30 first downs last Sunday.  30.  Man.

Yeah I'm glad they let up on us!

[technobot]

I can no longer ignore the trend that against competent offenses, we leak yards and points. Against elite offenses, we get lit the f up. 

 

What Cinci did to us I saw the Patriots do it us for years, and yes this was before then during McDermott: run basic plays. Easy underneath that the other quarterback always makes, receiver picks up 3-5 YAC guaranteed. Run the ball at will, right down our throat. 1 on 1 on the outside is identified, they take a shot. Rinse and repeat.

 

Does this defense require all pros littered throughout all three levels to function? Is that a reasonable ask?

[billsbackto81]

A Rook can't move diagonally.

A Bishop can't move vertically.

A King can only move one space at a time.

 

Players can only carry out the game plan being called. I swear I can't recall the last time I saw a team so out coached than I did on Sunday. 

 

The Bengals coaching staff took McD, Frazier and Dorsey behind the woodshed and beat them senseless, and then probably did unspeakable things to boot.

 

Outside of maybe WR they aren't the better team IMO, but they were the better coached and we were all witness to it.

[The Red King]

I trust the players.  They started hot, they showed they could do it.  Far from elite, but enough to get the job done.  Critical injuries hurt.

 

That being said...

 

The 'D' got figured out, exposed and exploited.  The schemes were mundane with no imagination and no adjustments.  It's like the plan was to stick to the original plan and hope things turn around.

 

New coach, new schemes and I think this 'D' is good enough.  Not elite, just...good enough.

[The Frankish Reich]

6 hours ago, Repulsif said:

I trust the players

I don't trust the defensive scheme they're put in

( I also suspect players themselves didn't trust the scheme, but it was ok as long as they were winning

The players are generally there because they fit the scheme. The scheme first, the players second. 
And yes, it is a fine scheme and a tremendous group of players to execute it. It’s a scheme that got us to 13-3 and very nearly the top seed in the playoffs. It is also a scheme that allowed A lot of more marginal players to be hidden when stars (Hyde, Von) went down. 
Does it work well against high-powered offenses that don’t make many mistakes? No. We’ve seen that. But short of making wholesale changes to personnel (and particularly since we’re likely to have less, not more, in the way of impact playmakers over the next couple seasons with no Von, Poyer, and maybe Hyde), I don’t see a realistic option to change things. My realistic (partial) solution: plan on the Chiefs/Bengals/even a healthy Dolphins to hang 30 on is, and try like hell to get to 35 on offense. Shootout or bust, at least for now. 

[stevestojan]

I have issues with the 12 “yes” responses to question 3. 
 

But my mind is blown that anyone can say “no” to questions 1 and 2 and yes to question 3. Being good at 3 is what gives you 1 and 2. 
 

And we flat out STINK at 3. 

[Pirate Angel]

Id dont trust anyone's defense that has had the injuries that the Bills did this year. Hyde, Von, Tre, Poyer at certain times. 

[Radar]

No

[Mikie2times]

We hear the word physical all the time and that's just not what we are. A base nickle is not a physical alignment and rarely is zone defense. Physical defense is numbers in the box, press, and a general willingness to get beat deep in order to disrupt timing. These are things we rarely do. On Offense we can't establish a run game and Josh isn't a dink and dunk QB. So if you slow down his rush game we struggle to control the ball which just compounds things on the other side.    

 

Perhaps what discourages me the most with both these concepts is they stay rather hidden in the data which can always be used as a reason to ignore or not acknowledge the issue. Each year we have a top rated defense and one of the better rush offenses as far as output, but in this case it's not what you did, it's how you did that is our demise. The issue to me is much more clear than pass rushers. We need to be a more physical team on both sides.  

[FireChans]

7 hours ago, Mango said:

I think its time McD take over play calling full time. Start there. 

Philly runs the same scheme. It isn't a cover 3 issue. It is calling the right defense at the right times. 

Philly has the horses. They had the horses in 2017 as well.

 

We haven't had the horses since 2014.

[DrPJax]

8 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Please explain in detail what the counter punch is to getting out-physicalled on the defensive line all game? What are you doing schematically to overcome that?

Go watch cover 1’s YouTube video about the last game. Very informative watch , and to me , if this doesn’t spell the end of this scheme and Frazier , I personally have no hope they will make it further than their 4-5 playoff record has proven to be their ceiling.
There were moments when cincy and burrows could not move the ball.  Unfortunately the coverages and schemes that were successful that day were used less than 10, maybe less than 5 % of the snaps.   Then Frazier/ Mcd reverted to coverages that Burrows was abusing and the players were put in horrible positions.  

I am not saying the talent is not lacking , it really is. Yet it’s amazing they had a 14-4 record , so scheme can effect most teams even with our very average talent , until you face good coaching staffs with players and qbs who can execute their counters well.  Not arguing the out played / physical part , but even with good talent , if Frazier is allowed to keep complicating the defensive reads so much and refuses to use what was working , he will continue to cost this team progressing even with elite talent as they will only play if they do what they are told to do ; they are not going to let players just free lance regardless of their talent.  Miller was even placed on a rotating basis as a 2x SB champ , hof talent.  This is about Mcd / Frazier changing to playing complicated, scared coverages at playoff time.  

[FireChans]

17 minutes ago, stevestojan said:

I have issues with the 12 “yes” responses to question 3. 
 

But my mind is blown that anyone can say “no” to questions 1 and 2 and yes to question 3. Being good at 3 is what gives you 1 and 2. 
 

And we flat out STINK at 3. 

I mean Christian Benford and Dane Jackson being even "able to start NFL games" from a talent evaluation and development perspective is pretty impressive.  Milano went from 5th round pick to All-Pro.  Tre was a star out of the box until he got hurt.  Poyer and Hyde were bargain FA's who became stars. Levi Wallace the UDFA started on this team and held his own.

 

You can argue that it wasn't good enough, and in a lot of examples, I would agree.  Especially at the most important defensive position (pass rush). But I think they are still pretty good talent evaluators.

[HoofHearted]

7 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

Go watch cover 1’s YouTube video about the last game. Very informative watch , and to me , if this doesn’t spell the end of this scheme and Frazier , I personally have no hope they will make it further than their 4-5 playoff record has proven to be their ceiling.
There were moments when cincy and burrows could not move the ball.  Unfortunately the coverages and schemes that were successful that day were used less than 10, maybe less than 5 % of the snaps.   Then Frazier/ Mcd reverted to coverages that Burrows was abusing and the players were put in horrible positions.  

I am not saying the talent is not lacking , it really is. Yet it’s amazing they had a 14-4 record , so scheme can effect most teams even with our very average talent , until you face good coaching staffs with players and qbs who can execute their counters well.  Not arguing the out played / physical part , but even with good talent , if Frazier is allowed to keep complicating the defensive reads so much and refuses to use what was working , he will continue to cost this team progressing even with elite talent as they will only play if they do what they are told to do ; they are not going to let players just free lance regardless of their talent.  Miller was even placed on a rotating basis as a 2x SB champ , hof talent.  This is about Mcd / Frazier changing to playing complicated, scared coverages at playoff time.  

I’m sure Cover 1 did a good job; they usually do. It doesn’t change the fact that there isn’t a scheme in the world that will overcome getting physically dominated at the point of attack all game long.

 

The bolded part made me laugh. Unfortunately, I feel like this is common thinking around here. Football has rules regardless of the scheme you’re in. This idea that players can just go out and “free-lance” is amusing to me.

[BillzFreak]

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I’m sure Cover 1 did a good job; they usually do. It doesn’t change the fact that there isn’t a scheme in the world that will overcome getting physically dominated at the point of attack all game long.

 

The bolded part made me laugh. Unfortunately, I feel like this is common thinking around here. Football has rules regardless of the scheme you’re in. This idea that players can just go out and “free-lance” is amusing to me.

 I'm still wondering why we never try press coverage and always defer to just playing back. Isn't it possible that on passing plays maybe being up on receivers would possibly give the d line that extra time to get home? Also when Burrow dropped back to pass the ball was right out, even Von Miller at 100% wasn't getting there in time. So how come he refuses to even try any sort of tighter coverage on receivers?

[John from Riverside]

Are we talking during the regular season or in the playoffs?
 

During the regular season, we lost three games by a total of eight points combined

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

9 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

I voted No across the board.  This is not a Super Bowl caliber Defense.  Go and watch San Francisco's Defense.  That's a championship Defense.  With that said the Bills bread and butter was supposed to be an Offensive juggernaut and if that materializes you can still go far with an alright Defense but we got exposed on both sides last weekend.  

 

 Ok. When we watch San Frans Defense are they going to have all their best players out hurt or playing no where near 100%? Like 4 out of their top 5 defenders and 2 others out and another playing with only one arm. Are they going to be on their #3 and then #4 FS?

 

 Did you forget that 7 games into the season our defense was just as good as theirs was and against better competition? This would've been a much better defense if it wasn't for the injuries. 4 All-Pros either out or no where near 100%.

 

 

 

 

[BillsPride12]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Ok. When we watch San Frans Defense are they going to have all their best players out hurt or playing no where near 100%? Like 4 out of their top 5 defenders and 2 others out and another playing with only one arm. Are they going to be on their #3 and then #4 FS?

 

 Did you forget that 7 games into the season our defense was just as good as theirs was and against better competition? This would've been a much better defense if it wasn't for the injuries. 4 All-Pros either out or no where near 100%.

 

 

 

 

The injuries sucked but we still had Rousseau, Ed, Epenesa, Boogie Basham.  These are all guys Beane drafted in the first two rounds in recent years and they still can't get any pressure going.  These are huge misses.  I like Edmunds and Milano and I recognize the secondary was banged up but my biggest gripe with the Bills for years is not being able to build a dominant Defensive Line which is a necessity if you want to build a championship team.  

[KOKBILLS]

I voted no on all 3...But I'm really surprised at the poll results so far. 70% to question #3 is substantial...

 

I had to say no to #3 because it's my humble opinion that this Defensive scheme, and the weird way it devolved this year, is figured out somehow. What I saw this year, even in the game that Zack Wilson played, was one guy wide open way too often. And QB whoever just playing pitch and catch for YAC...I totally realize the Bills had injury problems all over...I get it. But are they blowing coverage and just out-of-position THAT much? If so, then coaching is an even bigger issue. I know the scoring Defense is usually great, but Offenses are getting better and better...Even in our Division. And you get killed on those easy plays vs the really good teams...

 

Miami scored 17 points in consecutive weeks vs San Fran and SD...The entire NFL football community was talking about the specific Defensive approach the West Coast teams played vs Tua. Miami goes to Buffalo and scores 29. Then the following week it's 20 against Green Bay. In the SD/SF/GB games the fish averaged 301 total yards. They got 405 total at Buffalo. 

 

Then Cincy...

 

First I saw this from Anthony at Cover 1...

 

The Baltimore Ravens vs the Bengals in the wild card:

-light box rate of 80%

-2-high shell rate of 80%

-blitz rate of 10%

-3 man rush rate of 18%

 

Then I saw the Cover 1 Chart on Burrow. His lowest success rate and completion percentage over expected (-12.83) was vs 3 man rush Defenses.

 

I thought this was right up the Bills alley...I really did. They can't pass rush with any consistency anyway. I really thought they would advance scout and come out dropping 8 a lot from the beginning. It would have been a twist at least! But I'm not sure they ever saw that stat? They may have rushed 3 a few times last Sunday...But I did not catch it. Maybe I'm wrong. And I did see some blitzes, which are generally ill advised vs Burrow. Especially rushing more than 5...

 

I do agree with Mango's post above that part of it is the play calls vs the situation. But goodness they got that wrong a lot this year. Seemed like way too may 3rd and 10's or more were converted. 

 

I contend teams know how to beat this Defense easier now. For whatever reason. And it's only going to get harder if they try to stay the course with their stubbornness. Teams understand how to manufacture space to get a guy wide open vs this Bills D way too often. That's a Coaching philosophy problem McD must solve. It can be done. It's fixable. But I think they need some new eyes in that room to see it. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by KOKBILLS

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

Just now, BillsPride12 said:

The injuries sucked but we still had Rousseau, Ed, Epenesa, Boogie Basham.  These are all guys Beane drafted in the first two rounds in recent years and they still can't get any pressure going.  These are huge misses.  I like Edmunds and Milano and I recognize the secondary was banged up but my biggest gripe with the Bills for years is not being able to build a dominant Defensive Line which is a necessity if you want to build a championship team.  

 

 That did nothing but skirt around the question. Could San Frans defense hold Cincy down with 2 of their top 5 defenders out, 2 out of their top 5 playing nowhere near 100%. Another 2 starters(Hamlin & Jones) out and another guy playing with 1 arm?  The answer is no. They got smoked by KC, Mahomes had 423 and a passer rating of 132 and Tua just missed a 300 yard game(295). That was the only 2 top 10 passing offenses they played all year.

 

 Get rid of their best pass rusher & their Free Safety. Their Strong Safety & best CB are now 1 legged & the Strong Safety now only has 1 good arm. That backup Free Safety, he's now gone, on to your #3 and you're going to lose him in the game, so on to your #4. The one armed & 1 legged Strong Safety, he's going to get hurt in the game as well, on to #2. We haven't even got to losing your most important big man in the middle of that defense, on to #2, another big guy in the middle now only has 1 good arm.

 

 Their defense would get crushed, just like ours did.

 

 

 

 

[Blazman11]

To be fair I’ve never trusted the D at any point. They have a history of imploding against any decent offense. 

[Buffalo ill]

I am confident they will hold really bad offenses to low scores in the regular season.  

[ChrisWatson#21]

When you play five DB sets all the time and still can’t cover receivers you’re in bad shape man.  Time to change philosophy.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, ChrisWatson#21 said:

When you play five DB sets all the time and still can’t cover receivers you’re in bad shape man.  Time to change philosophy.

Our pass rush is beyond terrible. It had nothing to do with the DBs. 

[fathersnowman]

as most replies given, i would like to see the d line get a lot younger.. the defensive coach gone,...lets get a nasty defence, sick and tired of giving up third and longs . If we score 30 points a game, then that should be enough to win most games.

i need to see fight and a frazier replacement in place asap.

Mc D needs to be accountable for the team as well.