Discussion about Sean Payton

[SectionC3]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox has been open more than "from time to time" his separation numbers are among the best in the league for tight ends, his catch % is the best of his career.... the under usage of Dawson Knox is on Dorsey and Josh. 

I’ll add Spencer Brown to the list of those complicit, but otherwise I agree with you.  

[BarleyNY]

2 minutes ago, ExWNYer said:

 

 

On top of the draft pick compensation, Payton reportedly wants $20M - $25M to become someone's HC. Does anyone realistically think that Beane (picks) and the Pegulas (cash) would be willing to ante up that kind of compensation? I don't. It's just a fan pipe dream. I'd be happy with cutting loose Leslie Frazier for starters and going from there.

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

[Cray51]

6 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

McKenzie is not it.  Hence Allen pushing for Beasley mid-year. 

 

The slot guy next year is a share between Diggs and Shakir.  Boom.  Done.  Be creative.  Move people around.  The big need this offseason is a boundary WR who can make a contested catch now and again, unlike one of the current occupants of said position.  

If I remember correctly, Diggs was incredibly productive this season from the slot. 

 

If we can draft a top end rookie WR to play with Davis on the outside, and leverage Diggs in the slot, we could be a REAL challenge

[DCOrange]

37 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Sean Payton is under contract. What’s the expected compensation? Yes, he’s a much better coach than McD and I’d swap him out today. But that means blowing it all up in the FO too. Again, I’d be okay with that for Payton. I don’t see another available HC that I’d do it for tho. 

Spend more than a 1st round pick for the right to pay him $25 mil per year and his track record as a coach is making it to 1 Super Bowl in 15 years with his team going all in more often than not. I’d probably rather have McDermott even if we didn’t have to give up the farm for Payton, but considering the cost to get him, it’s a no brainer to pass. 

[Cray51]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

What's your definition of significant?

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox has been open more than "from time to time" his separation numbers are among the best in the league for tight ends, his catch % is the best of his career.... the under usage of Dawson Knox is on Dorsey and Josh. 

If Knox is effectively being schemed open, but the QB isn’t throwing him the ball, how is that on the OC? Too many complain about Dorsey - and I’m not saying he didn’t have his faults - but I do see open players on the field. That’s not a scheme issue. I don’t see our QB always making the best decisions on where to go with the ball. 

[BarleyNY]

1 minute ago, Cray51 said:

In what aspects is McDermott not a very good to great coach?  5 playoff appearances in 6 years, 3 straight division titles, players love him, handles situations professionally, brings in FA talent with Beane, great at utilizing timeouts and challenges (something he has improved drastically over the years).  He is absolutely a top 8 coach in the league.

 

Payton is an unknown outside of his stint with Brees.  Do I think he is also a great coach?  Yes.  But would I trade a first round pick which could be used to bring in a stud young WR or top Guard for him?  Absolutely not.  That is an absolute waste of capital.  We need more talent around Josh, plain and simple.

 

Do I think Frazier needs to go or change scheme?  Yea, thats a conversation worth having.  But to dump McD when he has shown consistency in success (something that a lot of people have taken for granted even though we just had a 25 year playoff win drought) is a terrible idea.  McD has at least another season to show what we can do, and when he is hear next season and we are at the top of the division again, I wont be surprised

McDermott has certainly done very good things for the Bills overall. But he’s not a great coach yet. He has not earned that. Maybe he will grow into one, but the major issues with his teams - and HIS defenses in particular - in the playoffs keep him from reaching the “great coach” level. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

 

So while I do think Sean Payton is an upgrade on McDermott, he has a sketchy playoff history himself. He lost Conference Championship game to Rex Grossman. He lost a playoff game as reigning champions to a 7-9 division winner. He lost twice to average Minnesota teams quarterbacked by Keenum and Cousins. All while having Drew freaking Brees. 

 

If he was a genuine FA maybe. But giving up a 1st round pick for Payton to "get you over the hump" when his track record of losing to less talented teams in the post season reads like that? Not for me. 

[ExWNYer]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

No, I certainly don’t think it happens. Obviously it would be costly to Pegula, but he has the cash and coaching salaries don’t impact the team’s cap so it makes no difference to me. A very late round first (and more) to significantly upgrade HC for years to come is a no brainer. 

 

I don't disagree and I know that coaches salaries don't count against the salary cap but I just don't see the Pegulas parting with that kind of scratch just for a HC. Maybe I'm wrong about that but that's just my opinion or gut feeling. If you told me that they were onboard and Payton would sign, I would gladly say, "Thanks for the memories and getting us back on track, Sean McDermott. Good luck to you in your future endeavors." As has been floated by others, I'm am starting to get a Marty Schottenheimer vibe from McDermott...good enough to get a franchise viable and on the right path but not good enough to ever win the big one.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

If Knox is effectively being schemed open, but the QB isn’t throwing him the ball, how is that on the OC? Too many complain about Dorsey - and I’m not saying he didn’t have his faults - but I do see open players on the field. That’s not a scheme issue. I don’t see our QB always making the best decisions on where to go with the ball. 

 

I said it is on both. Are they not having him as the primary read enough? Is he the read but Josh is forcing things downfield more? I don't know. Either is possible. What was noticeable was multiple games where they went to Knox on designed plays in the script then got away from it. It felt to me like McDermott was saying to Dorsey in the week "you gotta use Dawson" so he did in the first 15.... and then got away from him. 

[BarleyNY]

10 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Spend more than a 1st round pick for the right to pay him $25 mil per year and his track record as a coach is making it to 1 Super Bowl in 15 years with his team going all in more often than not. I’d probably rather have McDermott even if we didn’t have to give up the farm for Payton, but considering the cost to get him, it’s a no brainer to pass. 

Won a Super Bowl. Didn’t just make it there. I don’t care what his salary would be. Payton likely would elevate this offense and we’d see a change on the defensive side of the ball. He’d give this team a chance. Right now we’re sticking with a group that’s responsible for repeated awful defensive performances in the playoffs, a horrid offensive game plan for two straight playoff games this season and the 13 second debacle. So it is more that Payton is probably the best option out there right now and that’s way better than a group of coaches and FO personnel that I’ve lost faith in. 

[Wayne Cubed]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said it is on both. Are they not having him as the primary read enough? Is he the read but Josh is forcing things downfield more? I don't know. Either is possible. What was noticeable was multiple games where they went to Knox on designed plays in the script then got away from it. It felt to me like McDermott was saying to Dorsey in the week "you gotta use Dawson" so he did in the first 15.... and then got away from him. 

 

It definitely could be Josh but then a part of me thinks it's Dorsey's scheme and this 'big play' vertical offense. And I'm not sure he's being held accountable for missing the wide open guys? So is that Dorsey too, could be. You look at Zac Taylors offense last night and so much of it was very very smart and guys were wide open and not NFL wide open, literally wide open. I don't know if Josh is like Joe B and can make reads as quickly, I know he can make the throws.

[BarleyNY]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So while I do think Sean Payton is an upgrade on McDermott, he has a sketchy playoff history himself. He lost Conference Championship game to Rex Grossman. He lost a playoff game as reigning champions to a 7-9 division winner. He lost twice to average Minnesota teams quarterbacked by Keenum and Cousins. All while having Drew freaking Brees. 

 

If he was a genuine FA maybe. But giving up a 1st round pick for Payton to "get you over the hump" when his track record of losing to less talented teams in the post season reads like that? Not for me. 

That’s a fair take. My issue is more that he’s probably the best out there and that I’ve lost faith in this group of coaches and FO personnel. It’s not so much getting Payton specifically. I just want an upgrade. 
 

Edit: And, yes, I know a full overhaul is not happening this off-season. Right now I’m venting. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by BarleyNY

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

It definitely could be Josh but then a part of me thinks it's Dorsey's scheme and this 'big play' vertical offense. And I'm not sure he's being held accountable for missing the wide open guys? So is that Dorsey too, could be. You look at Zac Taylors offense last night and so much of it was very very smart and guys were wide open and not NFL wide open, literally wide open. I don't know if Josh is like Joe B and can make reads as quickly, I know he can make the throws.

 

It was also a LOT of quick game. I counted one quick game play from the Bills last night and it was after the game was gone. 

[LabattBlue]

42 minutes ago, papazoid said:

bills will hold out hope that frazier gets a HC gig and they get the 3rd round comp picks

Never in a million years is it going to happen. We are stuck with Frazier unless McD grows some balls and fires him, or Frazier eventually retires. 

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said it is on both. Are they not having him as the primary read enough? Is he the read but Josh is forcing things downfield more? I don't know. Either is possible. What was noticeable was multiple games where they went to Knox on designed plays in the script then got away from it. It felt to me like McDermott was saying to Dorsey in the week "you gotta use Dawson" so he did in the first 15.... and then got away from him. 

Yes, I know you said it’s on both, but I’m putting it more on the execution. The players. It’s on Dorsey to get people open or call well-timed plays against certain defenses that yield positive results. If Josh has options - open options - but he isn’t taking them, that’s not on the coordinator. He can sit down with Josh and they can all “learn” from the moment, but if the same issues arise game after game then at some point you have to put most of the blame on the players. For those who want to blame the OC equally, or more so, they’ll rebuttal with “if those plays weren’t working then he needed to run some others!” 
 

People debated whether Belichick or Brady was behind the Pats success and I rolled my eyes. Belichick is a great defensive coordinator, possibly the greatest of all time. His defenses stepped up in many big SB moments BUT Brady was the one who made clutch plays when they were absolutely needed. He did that all season and in the playoffs, Belichick doesn’t win 7 rings without the GOAT. McD can’t win a ring as a defensive coordinator if his defense is a liability and never steps up in the big moments and his QB doesn’t make the throws - clutch or otherwise - that are there to be made. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BarleyNY said:

That’s a fair take. My issue is more that he’s probably the best out there and that I’ve lost faith in this group of coaches and FO personnel. It’s not so much getting Payton specifically. I just want an upgrade. 

 

And he is the only upgrade in this field, so I get it. I'd still retain the regime another year, but failure to address their repeating issues - pass rush and oline - and I'd move on. Ben Johnson OC, Detroit.... he is the one I have my eye on. 

[TheBeaneBandit]

18 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

In what aspects is McDermott not a very good to great coach?  5 playoff appearances in 6 years, 3 straight division titles, players love him, handles situations professionally, brings in FA talent with Beane, great at utilizing timeouts and challenges (something he has improved drastically over the years).  He is absolutely a top 8 coach in the league.

 

Payton is an unknown outside of his stint with Brees.  Do I think he is also a great coach?  Yes.  But would I trade a first round pick which could be used to bring in a stud young WR or top Guard for him?  Absolutely not.  That is an absolute waste of capital.  We need more talent around Josh, plain and simple.

 

Do I think Frazier needs to go or change scheme?  Yea, thats a conversation worth having.  But to dump McD when he has shown consistency in success (something that a lot of people have taken for granted even though we just had a 25 year playoff win drought) is a terrible idea.  McD has at least another season to show what we can do, and when he is hear next season and we are at the top of the division again, I wont be surprised

His one remaining big weakness is loyally to well, weakness. Frazier gotta go.

[Wayne Cubed]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It was also a LOT of quick game. I counted one quick game play from the Bills last night and it was after the game was gone. 

 

And I think for me, it's what I find the most frustrating. I can't remember the Bills ever running a quick game offense, this season. I remember we've talked about how getting Josh a few quick completions used to settle him down.

[BarleyNY]

14 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

What's your definition of significant?

In this case simply a group of coaches who can put together decent game plans in the post season would be an upgrade. For example, McDermott is a defensive coach and his Bills defenses in the playoffs have been atrocious against good offenses. That’s been consistent. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

54 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

McDermott is fine IMO

 

 

I do think its time for a new defensive scheme.  The whole league has a lot of experience and data points vs the current Bills defense of 5 seasons or whatever.  They need to change their approach and probably coaching/vision.

 

Also need another WR as well as a slot guy if Shakir or McKenzie arent it.  Its Allen and Diggs vs the other team, with Knox getting open from time to time.

Knox is in helping Brown too much to be the weapon he could be.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

And I think for me, it's what I find the most frustrating. I can't remember the Bills ever running a quick game offense, this season. I remember we've talked about how getting Josh a few quick completions used to settle him down.

 

Week 1 at LAR. It was their "counter Donald" plan. Softened them up with quick game and then when they began to cheat up went deep. It has been M.I.A. since then.  

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

If only the problems with this team were as simple as Josh Allen making better reads we'd be all set.

Edited January 23, 2023 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[Wayne Cubed]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Week 1 at LAR. It was their "counter Donald" plan. Softened them up with quick game and then when they began to cheat up went deep. It has been M.I.A. since then.  

 

Ah yes, I remember that now that you've said that haha. Wow.

[Charles Romes]

15 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

And I think for me, it's what I find the most frustrating. I can't remember the Bills ever running a quick game offense, this season. I remember we've talked about how getting Josh a few quick completions used to settle him down.

 Versus the Rams week one to neutralize Donald.  It worked to perfection. Then they abandoned it though it should have been featured throughout especially v the Jets. 

[Scott7975]

I dont get this fascination with Sean Payton. The dude hasnt done anything in like 15 years and he had Drew Brees all that time.  As soon as it was obvious his next project QB wasnt going to cut it he "retired."

 

So you guys want to send premium picks on a retread coach that could otherwise be used to put some talent around Josh.  Probably the same people that were banging the table to bring in Gruden out of retirement for years.  How'd that work out for the Raiders?

[NoHuddleKelly12]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Week 1 at LAR. It was their "counter Donald" plan. Softened them up with quick game and then when they began to cheat up went deep. It has been M.I.A. since then.  

Ironically you would have thought Dorsey would least be capable of calling such a game plan in the infancy of his playcalling year 1...I've heard even Cover 1 in their postgame analysis yesterday comment that Dorsey showed improvement in his playcalling during the season--but I would argue he showed us more the first 4-5 weeks going into the bye, than after, fwiw. 

[BananaB]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I dont get this fascination with Sean Payton. The dude hasnt done anything in like 15 years and he had Drew Brees all that time.  As soon as it was obvious his next project QB wasnt going to cut it he "retired."

 

So you guys want to send premium picks on a retread coach that could otherwise be used to put some talent around Josh.  Probably the same people that were banging the table to bring in Gruden out of retirement for years.  How'd that work out for the Raiders?

We are wasting premium picks on guys who hardly see the field. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I dont get this fascination with Sean Payton. The dude hasnt done anything in like 15 years and he had Drew Brees all that time.  As soon as it was obvious his next project QB wasnt going to cut it he "retired."

 

So you guys want to send premium picks on a retread coach that could otherwise be used to put some talent around Josh.  Probably the same people that were banging the table to bring in Gruden out of retirement for years.  How'd that work out for the Raiders?

[The Firebaugh Kid]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Week 1 at LAR. It was their "counter Donald" plan. Softened them up with quick game and then when they began to cheat up went deep. It has been M.I.A. since then.  

Wow was Crowder that important? We didn’t see that kind of passing offense for the rest of the year. What I wouldn’t give to go back to week one. Sad

[Fan in Chicago]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Anyone else interested? I highly doubt McDermott goes, but should he?

I posted on another thread. If Beane finally comes to accept that Frazier is the problem, will McD fire him or tell Beane that you have to fire me too? 

[DaggersEOD]

1 hour ago, papazoid said:

 

only for the minimum

Seemed like the best WR on the field yesterday. Drop your petty hate. 

[Nextmanup]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:40 AM, McBean said:

Let’s hope those internal issues are Brandon Beane finally realizing that Sean McDermott is Doug Collins. I hope Beane takes a look at the 7-2 New York Giants, with way less talent, and realizes what the real problem is. 

Do the right thing Beane and hire a bright offensive minded HC, or we’re going to waste a generational talent in Josh Allen.

I agree with you, but Josh is NOT a generational talent!  I keep reading this here.

 

I can't think of a generational talent at QB in the NFL in the last....generation...other than maybe Tom Brady.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Nextmanup

[Scott7975]

41 minutes ago, BananaB said:

We are wasting premium picks on guys who hardly see the field. 

 

Agree and I posted something similar in the post game thread.  They need to stop that too.  We dont need a 200 man Dline rotation.  Keeping their legs fresh so they still cant pressure the QB all the while Josh has no talent around him.  First round corners that barely play 50% of the snaps because they on rotation too now. 2nd round picks apparently with not enough talent to see the field.  The only time these guys play rookies is when they are forced to.  Imagine Josh had an Oline that could block instead of a 200 man dline rotation that still cant get to the QB.  Sigh.  I like McD and Beane but premiums are going to waste while we have maybe 3 talented guys on offense. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Scott7975

[ArtVandalay]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And he is the only upgrade in this field, so I get it. I'd still retain the regime another year, but failure to address their repeating issues - pass rush and oline - and I'd move on. Ben Johnson OC, Detroit.... he is the one I have my eye on. 

So how many chances to fix their repetitive failures? No player would ever be given this much leeway. Don't you think the players recognize they keep falling short of their goal and is directly related to the coaches? Don't you think the players recognize their staff is not being held remotely to the same standards? 

 

How many more years of Allen are we going to waste? Let's keep in mind he's still developing so now we are hindering his development with no Dabol or other offensive coach with enough knowledge to groom a top tier QB and offensive system.  

 

13 seconds was the final straw, this year was their mercy year to fix it, they didn't.  Time to go.  Accountability. 

[jlgarsh]

What about seeing if Arians wants to come back to coaching? He was good in AZ & Tampa. I know he's in their FO in Tampa, but you never know. Trying to think who else is available and not out of the game for too long.

[SDS]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Anyone else interested? I highly doubt McDermott goes, but should he?

please don’t do this. There is absolutely no reason to resurrect a two month old topic with an incorrect topic title. If you need to reference a pass post you could just embed a link to it.

 

I know I have this on the Sabres site and I believe I have it here too where I ask you in a big orange alert box not to resurrect old posts.

[jlgarsh]

Also, I do think they should re-sign Beasley. He was getting open all game yesterday.

[GunnerBill]

38 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

So how many chances to fix their repetitive failures? No player would ever be given this much leeway. Don't you think the players recognize they keep falling short of their goal and is directly related to the coaches? Don't you think the players recognize their staff is not being held remotely to the same standards? 

 

How many more years of Allen are we going to waste? Let's keep in mind he's still developing so now we are hindering his development with no Dabol or other offensive coach with enough knowledge to groom a top tier QB and offensive system.  

 

13 seconds was the final straw, this year was their mercy year to fix it, they didn't.  Time to go.  Accountability. 

 

I think a lot of things. What I don't do is project my thoughts onto supposing other people think the same things. 

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

 Versus the Rams week one to neutralize Donald.  It worked to perfection. Then they abandoned it though it should have been featured throughout especially v the Jets. 

 

and week 2 against the Titans.