Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?

[John from Riverside]

27 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

Like I said, he doesn’t make splash plays. But he eats up a ton of field potentially limiting Kelce from having an even bigger day. 
 

But his best games have been against the Ravens. He is excellent at helping to beat the Ravens. If we lose his speed and range I’d be worried about the Ravens, specifically Lamar, shredding us

I am in no way endorsing letting Edmonds walk but I will say that there is this thing called the draft and we can draft another mobile linebacker if needed

[Orlando Tim]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I am in no way endorsing letting Edmonds walk but I will say that there is this thing called the draft and we can draft another mobile linebacker if needed

Dude is a physical freak even by NFL standards in regards to size, strength, and speed. His judgement of plays has been questioned but we will not replace him his physical gifts in most drafts.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

They do, they just don't call them a MLB.  Tremaine has played the SS position his entire career. He. just happens to have the size and "Title" of a middle linebacker. Beane will find someone in the draft or bargain FA who might be 6-1/6-2 who can play that hybrid role. Maybe I'll just stop using the term hybrid and say our 2nd SS?  Do you think he gets extended?

First, I don't think you're correct about being able to find someone to play the position.  I don't think so because I think that his extra three inches of height and his extra five-six inches of wingspan over a 6-2 guy makes a big difference on the field.   I think it translates into five yards of coverage downfield, and into an ability to cover the middle in the zone more effectively.  I think, for example, that the Bills can succeed with Levi Wallace, Dane Jackson, and Benford in part because they have small zones to cover.    I think that's true, but I can't say I've heard anyone say it, exactly.  What we have heard is a lot of players and player personnel people say he's a freak in the middle of the zone.  So, I don't think they can replace him nearly as easily as you think. 

 

Second, I have no idea if he gets extended, because I don't know that McDermott thinks he's indispensable.  He will be expensive, for sure, but I think the Bills will find the money if they think highly of him.  I think it's more likely than not that he's extended.

 

Third, I've been thinking for a few days about what's happening in the NFL.   I think that coordinators have figured out how to stop modern NFL passing offenses, except against the very best, like Allen and Mahomes.  I think that we're starting to see a shift back to running the ball.  Cleveland can win running Nick Chubb this season, but they couldn't two years ago.   I have no idea whether that's right, but McDermott knows.   If that's right, McDermott is going to be telling Beane to go find a Keuchle, a more traditional run-stopping MLB who can defend the pass.  On the other hand, I don't think the NFL will let the league go back to running league, because it's a less interesting product for TV.   I think, as I've said before, we're going to see the rules about offensive holding change.  They're going to make it easier to protect the passer to goose the passing game.  And if that happens, McD likely will still want Tremaine in the middle.  

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

First, I don't think you're correct about being able to find someone to play the position.  I don't think so because I think that his extra three inches of height and his extra five-six inches of wingspan over a 6-2 guy makes a big difference on the field.   I think it translates into five yards of coverage downfield, and into an ability to cover the middle in the zone more effectively.  I think, for example, that the Bills can succeed with Levi Wallace, Dane Jackson, and Benford in part because they have small zones to cover.    I think that's true, but I can't say I've heard anyone say it, exactly.  What we have heard is a lot of players and player personnel people say he's a freak in the middle of the zone.  So, I don't think they can replace him nearly as easily as you think. 

 

Second, I have no idea if he gets extended, because I don't know that McDermott thinks he's indispensable.  He will be expensive, for sure, but I think the Bills will find the money if they think highly of him.  I think it's more likely than not that he's extended.

 

Third, I've been thinking for a few days about what's happening in the NFL.   I think that coordinators have figured out how to stop modern NFL passing offenses, except against the very best, like Allen and Mahomes.  I think that we're starting to see a shift back to running the ball.  Cleveland can win running Nick Chubb this season, but they couldn't two years ago.   I have no idea whether that's right, but McDermott knows.   If that's right, McDermott is going to be telling Beane to go find a Keuchle, a more traditional run-stopping MLB who can defend the pass.  On the other hand, I don't think the NFL will let the league go back to running league, because it's a less interesting product for TV.   I think, as I've said before, we're going to see the rules about offensive holding change.  They're going to make it easier to protect the passer to goose the passing game.  And if that happens, McD likely will still want Tremaine in the middle.  

Trenton Simpson, probably a late first rounder. Great size at 6-3 and 240. Much faster than Tremaine at 4.39 and could solve your first and third points. And did I mention it won't cost 14-18M.  And I agree you're going to see a gradual shift back to more emphasis on run attacks by nfl teams. 

[LeGOATski]

9 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am in no way endorsing letting Edmonds walk but I will say that there is this thing called the draft and we can draft another mobile linebacker if needed

 

4 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Trenton Simpson, probably a late first rounder. Great size at 6-3 and 240. Much faster than Tremaine at 4.39 and could solve your first and third points. And did I mention it won't cost 14-18M.  And I agree you're going to see a gradual shift back to more emphasis on run attacks by nfl teams. 

Even if he turned out just as good as Edmunds, people will still complain for the same reasons. Anyone drafted to replace Edmunds will be asked to do the same things that Edmunds does, which by nature don't stand out to the casual fan. They won't need to pay as much, but they'll need to deal with a rookie learning curve and potentially a bust.

11 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

6 -3, 240, 4.39 (40).....yikes!

CBS has him currently projected #35 over-all. There you go, someone we could draft on a 5 year rookie contract who could take over for TE.  Maybe he even surprises us with some instincts at the LOS?

Trenton Simpson, remember that name.

If you read that profile, it says he struggles against the run. He's pretty much an Edmunds clone, except a little shorter and a little faster. No idea what kind of intangibles he has or if he's a "process guy."

[benderbender]

We should all be as lucky as Edmunds. I wish that any time my performance was called into question, people just referenced my height/length and it counted as a valid point. Or better yet, my boss said "think of all the accidents he doesn't have."

 

His height/length is only an asset if he uses it. When he's sucked into blocks, over pursues, or doesn't use his pteranodon wingspan to wrap up Aaron Jones, he could be 8 feet tall and it doesn't help. The worst indictment of that argument is that Milano is considered undersized and yet his contributions are never in doubt. 

[damj]

I've been very anti Edmunds, but I've cooled on him. With his size and athleticism, I expect to see him running around and making plays everywhere, which obviously he doesn't. I still think his reactions and angles are bad at times. I've stopping bashing him. The defense is very much a team concept with the 1/11th philosophy. He's being used to take away the middle of the field in the Bills 2 deep safety pass coverage. 

 

Here is a good video I found: https://youtu.be/Fb4Di9rH5Q0

 

 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Trenton Simpson, probably a late first rounder. Great size at 6-3 and 240. Much faster than Tremaine at 4.39 and could solve your first and third points. And did I mention it won't cost 14-18M.  And I agree you're going to see a gradual shift back to more emphasis on run attacks by nfl teams. 

Thanks.   Obviously, there are a lot of characteristics to consider in whom to draft, but on straight physical attributes, that's the kind of guy you want.  Not to argue, but just to discuss the point.

 

1.  Unless you're going to list three or four or five late-first-round guys, it's a real crapshoot to let Edmunds walk and then hope Simpson will fall.  What do you do if he's gone when you pick at 30?   Last year, the Bills wanted a corner, and there were several on the board when the first round started, but there was only one left whom the Bills really wanted when they picked.  Trading up to make sure you get him gets expensive.   Remember, in personnel, there are two kinds of capital - cash and draft picks.  Trading picks is just as costly in terms of capital spent as spending actual dollars.    Again, I'm not arguing, just thinking about the merits of a strategy where the Bills expect to replace Edmunds with a first-round pick (or early second round).  

 

2. As for the $14-$18 million, I think one of us is correct and one isn't as to how important that position is.   Quarterback is important enough a position that the Bills will spend a lot of both kinds of capital to get and keep the right one - they'll trade players and picks to move up and they'll write $40-$50 million annual checks.  I talk often about how teams spend draft capital only on certain positions.   First round picks go disproportionately to guys at the most important positions, and the lesser positions get drafted in the first round less often.   The Bills burned a lot of draft capital on Edmunds, trading up in the first round to get him.  That suggests to me that they got him to play an important position in their scheme, and they thought he was able to do it.  The fact that he started from day one suggests that he is exactly what they were looking for.  The ONLY evidence that they might want to replace him is that he hasn't been extended yet (and that could have more to do with cap management than how important he is to the scheme).  Yes, they drafted Bernard, but a crapshoot in the third round doesn't look to me like dissatisfaction with Edmunds; it was more like a shot in the dark to see if they could find a cheaper replacement.   Bottom line, I think that the real question is how important that position is to the scheme the Bills want to play. 

 

Let me suggest one thing to think about when considering how important Edmunds is to the scheme:  Who among us thought that Levi Wallace, Dane Jackson, Kaiir Elam and Christian Benford could take over primary pass coverage duties without skipping a beat when White went down?   Not me, that's for sure.  And yet, here we are.  Would the outcome against KC last January been different with White in the lineup?  Maybe.  But, putting that game aside, the Bills defend wideouts just fine without White on the field.   Then the Bills lost Hyde; still, not much of a problem.  So, maybe in this defense the shut-down corner isn't the key man.  Maybe the middle linebacker is.   And if the middle linebacker is the lynchpin, then paying him $14-$18 million is cheap.   I mean, if Edmunds is the star of the defense, whether we can see it or not, not paying to keep him is like not paying Allen to keep him.   

[Shaw66]

57 minutes ago, damj said:

I've been very anti Edmunds, but I've cooled on him. With his size and athleticism, I expect to see him running around and making plays everywhere, which obviously he doesn't. I still think his reactions and angles are bad at times. I've stopping bashing him. The defense is very much a team concept with the 1/11th philosophy. He's being used to take away the middle of the field in the Bills 2 deep safety pass coverage. 

 

Here is a good video I found: https://youtu.be/Fb4Di9rH5Q0

 

 

Hey, thanks for the link.  That's excellent, and it explains what I've been seeing.   Essentially, he concludes by saying that with defenses going back to two-deep concepts, offenses can win maybe by running, or by having a really good QB, and that's what we're seeing.   Allen and Mahomes (and Dak on Sunday) can keep winning, but even Rodgers and Brady can't dominate these defenses.   

 

The video doesn't talk a lot about the middle linebacker, but if you watch Edmunds on those plays, he isn't attacking the line of scrimmage.   You can see that his job isn't to make tackles at the line of scrimmage - it's to make tackles on running backs who get past the line.  The video does explain Edmunds job in some defenses, and it's clear that his brains and recognition, together with his speed and length, is necessary to create problems over the middle for QBs.  

 

Interesting video.  Thanks.  

 

Edit:  And, stupid me, now I see that this video explains what I said above about maybe White isn't so important.  The video says that what happened in the league around 2010 is that pretty much everyone switched to playing one high safety, and that was the dominant defense for the next decade.  Well, with one-high, you really can use a shut-down corner, because one high forces you to leave someone on an island.   That's why through the Patriots' glory years they always wrote big checks for a shut-down corner.  When you switch to two-high, your need for a shut-down corner declines; you can tell a guy like Dane Jackson that if he does his job correctly, he doesn't have to be overly concerned about getting beat deep.  And if you have two guys like Milano and Edmunds roaming the middle of the field, you also can reduce the amount of real estate he's responsible for.  

 

All of that means that you need to be able to get pressure on the QB with four guys, which is exactly what McBeane have been saying for years.   And that is exactly why we've seen the investment in the D line over the past three seasons.  

 

All of which says that Edmunds' job is very important.  The question is whether he's one of five guys or one of fifty who can do it. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Shaw66

[Eastport bills]

Edmunds is going nowhere. He is the perfect compliment to Milano. They make the same tackles that you get out of a 4/3 and allows a young , inexperienced secondary to be in the nickel most snaps. They’re super fast and tackle nastily. They need to be in more blitz packages to make really impactful plays and get turnovers. The versatility of Edmunds, being able to cover backs and TEs is under appreciated.

[damj]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

The video doesn't talk a lot about the middle linebacker, but if you watch Edmunds on those plays, he isn't attacking the line of scrimmage.   You can see that his job isn't to make tackles at the line of scrimmage - it's to make tackles on running backs who get past the line.  The video does explain Edmunds job in some defenses, and it's clear that his brains and recognition, together with his speed and length, is necessary to create problems over the middle for QBs.  

 

No, it doesn't talk about middle linebackers, but with Edmunds size it's hard to throw over him into the deep middle of the field and he has the speed athleticism to cover the shallow middle.

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, damj said:

No, it doesn't talk about middle linebackers, but with Edmunds size it's hard to throw over him into the deep middle of the field and he has the speed athleticism to cover the shallow middle.

Agree.   I used to be good enough at math and physics to figure out how much extra downfield coverage you get when the guy in the middle of the zone has an extra eight or ten inches of reach, based on height and wingspan.  It take a while for me to figure it out now, but I'd guess that a 6'2" guy would have to take a three- or four-yard deeper drop to cover the same territory.  That means that lining up in the same position as normal linebackers, Edmunds is able to protect 100 square yards more than a normal linebacker.   That's significant.  

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

Edmunds is going nowhere. He is the perfect compliment to Milano. They make the same tackles that you get out of a 4/3 and allows a young , inexperienced secondary to be in the nickel most snaps. They’re super fast and tackle nastily. They need to be in more blitz packages to make really impactful plays and get turnovers. The versatility of Edmunds, being able to cover backs and TEs is under appreciated.

It all depends on his contract demands. You can’t have a meaningful discussion about whether or not Edmunds will be here without discussing his contract value. His demands obviously have not lined up with the value the Bills put on him. I think another team will pay him more and it’ll be up to him whether he stays for less or goes somewhere else for the last nickel. Since it’s gotten to this point I suspect the latter. 

[Nextmanup]

10 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

 

Even if he turned out just as good as Edmunds, people will still complain for the same reasons. Anyone drafted to replace Edmunds will be asked to do the same things that Edmunds does, which by nature don't stand out to the casual fan. They won't need to pay as much, but they'll need to deal with a rookie learning curve and potentially a bust.

If you read that profile, it says he struggles against the run. He's pretty much an Edmunds clone, except a little shorter and a little faster. No idea what kind of intangibles he has or if he's a "process guy."

Yeah, but the guy who plugs in and does the same thing with a new name won't be asking for tons of money.

 

He won't be back!

 

 

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, benderbender said:

The worst indictment of that argument is that Milano is considered undersized and yet his contributions are never in doubt. 

Well, the contributions of all of the guys around him are never in doubt.   White, Jacks, Elam, Benford, Johnson, Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin.  Isn't interesting the oversized, hyper-speedy man in the middle who has started since day one of his rookie season is the only one in the defensive backfield whose contributions are questioned?   You seem to think that's an accident, or that the Bills have players all around covering for his weaknesses or something.  Do you really think McBeane would have started him for five years if that were the case?  

 

The Bills are the ultimate team-oriented defense.  Everyone is working to make the other guys better.  Edmunds is in the middle because he makes a lot of guys better. 

[Dopey]

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/11/3/23437862/bills-packers-game-analysis-tremaine-edmunds-all-22

 

And this is his worst game this year. I watched the game 2 more times. Milano wasn’t much better than Edmunds this game. Milano made mistakes too. Some here just wait for a perceived mistake by Edmunds and pounce. 
To the “he makes tackles 5yds downfield “ crowd, take a look at where he lines up most plays. Yep, 5-6 yds downfield.  
I have said it before and I’ll say it again, you guys are complaining about how he’s used more than how he plays   He’s doing exactly what the coaching staff wants him to do. 

[BullBuchanan]

21 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

I gotta say I’m not the biggest Edmunds fan, but his strengths are perfect matchups for the Chiefs and the Ravens. I really think we need to keep him. 
 

yeah he doesn’t make the splashy plays, but he covers up lanes and can keep a QB from making a back breaking play or a RB coming out or the backfield from ripping off a big gain

Is it Kelce's 6 TDs and 475 yards across 5 games against us during Edmunds' time here or is it something else that leads you to this opinion?
 

[BullBuchanan]

45 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, the contributions of all of the guys around him are never in doubt.   White, Jacks, Elam, Benford, Johnson, Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin.  Isn't interesting the oversized, hyper-speedy man in the middle who has started since day one of his rookie season is the only one in the defensive backfield whose contributions are questioned?   You seem to think that's an accident, or that the Bills have players all around covering for his weaknesses or something.  Do you really think McBeane would have started him for five years if that were the case?  

 

The Bills are the ultimate team-oriented defense.  Everyone is working to make the other guys better.  Edmunds is in the middle because he makes a lot of guys better. 

No it's not an accident that he is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage.

Everything that makes Edmunds great are the tools he was born with. Everything that makes him terrible is what he has done with them. If you combine those two things together, you get a middle of the road talent whose raw athleticism bails him out enough to make up for below average ability in most other facets of his game.

I'm pretty convinced that if he were 4-5" shorter, he would be a significantly more impactful player with otherwise no increase in skill simply because he has no idea how to use his body to gain leverage during contact. He's like the Tyler Myers of the NFL.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by BullBuchanan

[FilthyBeast]

Based on some of the projections floating around social media, looks like Edmunds is going to command somewhere between $20 -$25 million a year minimum in free agency.

 

In other words, enjoy him while it last because there's no way Beane is ponying up that type of cash for him, nor should he to keep this team in SB contention in the foreseeable future.

[Dopey]

43 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Is it Kelce's 6 TDs and 475 yards across 5 games against us during Edmunds' time here or is it something else that leads you to this opinion?
 

That’s not all on Edmunds. You know better. We gave up 20 points to KC last game. Only the colts gave up less this year to KC. By the way, wasn’t it Milano that gave up the game winning td to Kelce in the playoffs last year? I’m assuming that’s one of the 6 TDs you’re  referencing . Cuz that’s not on Edmunds. The excuses were “it’s Kelce, he does that to everyone “. What a ridiculous way to try and blame Edmunds, and Edmunds only for that BS stat. 

[Eastport bills]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

It all depends on his contract demands. You can’t have a meaningful discussion about whether or not Edmunds will be here without discussing his contract value. His demands obviously have not lined up with the value the Bills put on him. I think another team will pay him more and it’ll be up to him whether he stays for less or goes somewhere else for the last nickel. Since it’s gotten to this point I suspect the latter. 

It sounds about right, but if he keeps playing like the 1st half and they go to the promised land , they might up their offer. After all, he’s 24.

[Dopey]

49 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Based on some of the projections floating around social media, looks like Edmunds is going to command somewhere between $20 -$25 million a year minimum in free agency.

 

In other words, enjoy him while it last because there's no way Beane is ponying up that type of cash for him, nor should he to keep this team in SB contention in the foreseeable future.

I probably wouldn’t pay that much. That’s not an indictment on his play, just cap reality. He’s definitely someone our staff would love to keep. Again, probably not at that price. 

[VaMilBill]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

Is it Kelce's 6 TDs and 475 yards across 5 games against us during Edmunds' time here or is it something else that leads you to this opinion?
 

Edmunds isn’t covering Kelce every play. That’s a defense issue. Plus elite players are impossible to eliminate. Hence making them elite

[Rocky Landing]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

No it's not an accident that he is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage.

Everything that makes Edmunds great are the tools he was born with. Everything that makes him terrible is what he has done with them. If you combine those two things together, you get a middle of the road talent whose raw athleticism bails him out enough to make up for below average ability in most other facets of his game.

I'm pretty convinced that if he were 4-5" shorter, he would be a significantly more impactful player with otherwise no increase in skill simply because he has no idea how to use his body to gain leverage during contact. He's like the Tyler Myers of the NFL.

 

This take isn't even rational.

[Brand J]

If Edmunds was a thorn in our biggest competitor’s side - the Chiefs - then he’d be a must re-sign. The fact that no one can point to a single play he has made against that team, in the last 5 games, that made you leap out of your seat, lessens his value in my eyes.
If he’s as easily manipulated by Mahomes as all the other defenders in the league, what exactly is it you guys want to hold onto? Why pay him a contract that exceeds Milano’s AAV? This is my biggest criticism with Edmunds. He doesn’t make many of those plays that pop off the screen - against the Chiefs or any other team.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

This take isn't even rational.

your rebuttal is a little thin…

[BullBuchanan]

23 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

I gotta say I’m not the biggest Edmunds fan, but his strengths are perfect matchups for the Chiefs and the Ravens. I really think we need to keep him. 
 

yeah he doesn’t make the splashy plays, but he covers up lanes and can keep a QB from making a back breaking play or a RB coming out or the backfield from ripping off a big gain

 

 

1 minute ago, VaMilBill said:

Edmunds isn’t covering Kelce every play. That’s a defense issue. Plus elite players are impossible to eliminate. Hence making them elite

You need to make up your mind because the case you're making for edmunds is that he helps against Kelce, but yet Kelce has absolutely destroyed the Bills since he's been here, so obviously he isn't helping that much.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dopey said:

That’s not all on Edmunds. You know better. We gave up 20 points to KC last game. Only the colts gave up less this year to KC. By the way, wasn’t it Milano that gave up the game winning td to Kelce in the playoffs last year? I’m assuming that’s one of the 6 TDs you’re  referencing . Cuz that’s not on Edmunds. The excuses were “it’s Kelce, he does that to everyone “. What a ridiculous way to try and blame Edmunds, and Edmunds only for that BS stat. 

I never said it was. I'm simply countering the ridiculous argument that Edmunds who in his career has allowed a 93, 76, 114, 106 and 84.5 Passer Rating makes us sitgnificantly more prepared to stop Kelce, who averages almost 100 yards a game and over a TD a game when playing against Edmunds. When playing against other temas he averages 71.3 YPG and less than 0.5 TDs per game. Edmunds is below repalcement level against Kelce - that's just data in black and white.

 

4 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

This take isn't even rational.

What part(s) do you need explained? You may disagree with it, but it's absolutely rational.

[Dr.Sack]

Edmunds is key to winning this year. I’d like to see him resigned.

[LABILLBACKER]

7 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Based on some of the projections floating around social media, looks like Edmunds is going to command somewhere between $20 -$25 million a year minimum in free agency.

 

In other words, enjoy him while it last because there's no way Beane is ponying up that type of cash for him, nor should he to keep this team in SB contention in the foreseeable future.

Did those projections include cannibas? 20-25M is hilarious. 

[LeGOATski]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Did those projections include cannibas? 20-25M is hilarious. 

Based on the current top LB contracts, Tremaine would get 15-20...20-21 if he wants to be the highest paid LB in the league, which I doubt, but you never know.

[LABILLBACKER]

22 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Based on the current top LB contracts, Tremaine would get 15-20...20-21 if he wants to be the highest paid LB in the league, which I doubt, but you never know.

Good luck to him chasing that dream contract but if true that's all the more reason we're letting him walk.

[benderbender]

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, the contributions of all of the guys around him are never in doubt.   White, Jacks, Elam, Benford, Johnson, Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin.  Isn't interesting the oversized, hyper-speedy man in the middle who has started since day one of his rookie season is the only one in the defensive backfield whose contributions are questioned?   

Not really. Earlier in his career was a pro bowler. His play made it clear. Now it must be explained in a debriefing every week how his size did something, but wouldn't allow him to wrap up a tackle or escape a block. 

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

You seem to think that's an accident, or that the Bills have players all around covering for his weaknesses or something.  Do you really think McBeane would have started him for five years if that were the case?  

Yes, he clearly has weaknesses. The staff has made peace with his deficiencies and shuffled the defense to compensate. Thus the "he only does what's asked of him" line that we get so often. If what was asked of him was to take one side of the field while Milano took the other, this wouldn't be a topic. Also we traded up to get him. So of course he would get every opportunity to prove McBeane right. And early on, it looked like a home run. My main issue with Edmunds, is that he doesn't seem to have progressed or gained instinct. I want him to succeed. Perhaps it's the Baker Mayfield scenario where he came into the league at his ceiling and I'm just being unreasonable. But that's why I bristle at calls for him to be resigned at some crippling cap number or downplaying his whiffs. In the end, one can only be so upset with a Top 2 defense on a 6-1 team.

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, VaMilBill said:

Edmunds isn’t covering Kelce every play. That’s a defense issue. Plus elite players are impossible to eliminate. Hence making them elite

 

In fact he is covering him very rarely. It has normally been Milano or Taron.

[LABILLBACKER]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In fact he is covering him very rarely. It has normally been Milano or Taron.

And what does that tell you. It speaks volumes why you rarely if ever see Edmunds guard Kelce 1 on 1. Even though he's the exact same size & speed of Kelce?  Makes absolutely no sense. Such a counterintuitive defensive strategy????

Edited November 4, 2022 by LABILLBACKER

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

And what does that tell you. It speaks volumes why you rarely if ever see Edmunds guard Kelce 1 on 1. Even though he the exact same size & speed of Kelce?  Makes absolutely no sense. Such a counterintuitive defensive strategy????

 

Tells you the Bills play zone defense and the TE is rarely the responsibility of the MLB in their scheme?

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, benderbender said:

The staff has made peace with his deficiencies and shuffled the defense to compensate. Thus the "he only does what's asked of him" line that we get so often. If what was asked of him was to take one side of the field while Milano took the other, this wouldn't be a topic. Also we traded up to get him. So of course he would get every opportunity to prove McBeane right. 

I think this is primarily making things up to fit your argument.   First, the Bills' ALWAYS ask players to do what they can do well and not to do the things they can't do well.   That's part of the system.  But the evidence is very clear that the Bills always move on from players who aren't getting the job done - they've done it with multiple offensive linemen, with multiple defensive linemen, etc., and it's naive to think that the Bills would have put up with sub-par play out of Edmunds for five years.  They would have moved on.  Zach Moss, Cody Ford, Harrison Philips all are evidence of that.  

 

It's all a question of money, as far as I can tell.  So long as the Bills want to play this style of defense, they'll be happy to have Edmunds in the middle, if they can afford him.  And if they keep him at $18 or $20 million, that will tell you that your perception of his deficiencies is flat out wrong.  

 

I remember what Doug Whaley said about the cap:  There's enough room for six big contracts:  QB, left tackle, and one more on offense, edge, corner, and one more on defense.   Josh, Dion, Stefon, Von, Tre, and someone on defense that you write a big check for.  More likely Edmunds than Oliver or than Poyer.  

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Tells you the Bills play zone defense and the TE is rarely the responsibility of the MLB in their scheme?

Yes. 

 

And the fundamental point that people seem to miss is that this is a bend-don't-break defense and not a big play defense.   Edmunds' critics complain that he doesn't make big plays, but in the middle of this defense, that's not his job.   His job is to make sure the defense doesn't break.  That means he plays a more passive role, cleaning up for the d line when the d line is unable to make a play, roaming the middle so that the ball goes deep or outside, where the playmakers are.  

 

It's funny how people argue with the results.   Bills are third in yards allowed per game this season, and since Edmunds arrived they have finished 14th once, and third, second, and first.  How could that be if the middle linebacker has no instincts and can't tackle?  If he's that bad, when they replace him with a real linebacker, offenses will go three and out all day long.  It will be shut-out heaven.   

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes. 

 

And the fundamental point that people seem to miss is that this is a bend-don't-break defense and not a big play defense.   Edmunds' critics complain that he doesn't make big plays, but in the middle of this defense, that's not his job.   His job is to make sure the defense doesn't break.  That means he plays a more passive role, cleaning up for the d line when the d line is unable to make a play, roaming the middle so that the ball goes deep or outside, where the playmakers are.  

 

It's funny how people argue with the results.   Bills are third in yards allowed per game this season, and since Edmunds arrived they have finished 14th once, and third, second, and first.  How could that be if the middle linebacker has no instincts and can't tackle?  If he's that bad, when they replace him with a real linebacker, offenses will go three and out all day long.  It will be shut-out heaven.   

 

Edmunds has had his issues in 2020 and 2021. He has never been as bad as his detractors suggest but he has also never been as good as his very vociferous supporters sometimes claim. The truth the last two years has been somewhere in the middle. In 2022 he has been one of the Bills best players and if he keeps this pace up has a legit shot at all pro votes. Whether you look at the eye test, the pure numbers or the advanced analytics they all back that up. 

[ColoradoBills]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:40 AM, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for the post, but I disagree.  Increasingly, I'm coming to understand that Edmunds is playing the position you're talking about.   In most of the sets he plays in, he isn't asked to be a run stopping lineback like Brown or Pos or Roquan Smith.   His role isn't "stop the run and drop back in a zone some of the time."   His role is very much different.  His role in the run game is to run down the ball carrier if he breaks past the line of scrimmage.   Hamlin and Taron Johnson are asked to make more tackles in the backfield than Edmunds is.   The Bills don't want Edmunds in the backfield.   He's the first line of defense in a the safety net that is designed to stop big plays, and he does that very well.  In the Bills defense, tackling the ball five yards downfield IS a win, because it's not 15 yards downfield.   It's exactly what the Bills want if the defensive line couldn't hold the line.  

 

He's not reasonably strong in coverage; he's great in coverage.   Not because he gets pass breakups or INTs; he's great in coverage because he occupies more space in the zone than any other linebacker in the league, because his combination of length, speed, and quickness is unmatched in the league. 

 

The result of all of this is that to the uninformed fan, like me, he doesn't look spectacular.   He doesn't get sacks, he doesn't get tackles for loss, he doesn't get INTs.  He is, however, absolutely perfect for the way McDermott and Frazier want to play defense.  

 

On 11/1/2022 at 6:15 PM, Shaw66 said:

This is the core misunderstanding of Edmunds role.   His job is not to make the big plays you're looking for.   His job is not to blitz, so he doesn't get sacks.   His job is not to attack the line of scrimmage, so he doesn't get TFLs.  His job is to occupy a lot of territory and make tackles when they come to him.   By occupying a lot of space, he makes it easier for all of the pass defenders to do THEIR jobs.  

 

Bravo Shaw for trying to explain Edmunds' role in the Bills D.  I could have added more of your replies, but this is enough.

The Bills D uses Edmunds differently.  He's not a typical MLB.  He is continuously filling the middle in a 2 LB w/nickel roll.

That means not only covering the middle, but he has the responsibility to cover the weak side too.  He can do that with his

size and range.  

 

I do have to laugh a little about the GB game.  Edmunds had 13 solo tackles. 13.  The most he has ever had, and fans think he played

a bad game.  IF the Bills truly wanted to stop GB running the ball, they had 2 options.  They could have come out of the 2 deep and/or

they could have come out of the nickel.  They chose not to.  That choice caused Edmunds to have to chase down runners well

back from the LOS.  But he made a bunch of those plays that would of went for more yards if he failed.

 

I will admit I have been down on Edmunds when I have thought of him in a typical MLB role, but this year when the Bills are on D

I watch Edmunds' first move a lot more than I did in the past.  It shows where his responsibility is.  He is the guy that other teams

gameplan against to try to move him into bad spots or disguised roles.  I now think he is doing exactly what Frazier wants him to do

and he does a very good job at it.  It's one of the reasons that the TV commentators praise him so much.  They hear what the opposing

teams say about him week after week.  The space he takes up also allows the SS (Poyer) and others to run free and make a lot of the

splash plays that they do.

 

Whether or not he is re-signed in March is going to have a lot to do with the cap money and how much Edmunds and his agent want.

I think I'm not going out on a limb saying Edmunds is the priority signing over Poyer for a number of reasons.  My prediction is Edmunds

is signing for $15-16M per on a 5-year contract.  If he wants $19M+ he will have to get it somewhere else (and probably could).

 

This board is going to melt down when he does sign.    

[Rocky Landing]

22 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

No it's not an accident that he is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage.

Everything that makes Edmunds great are the tools he was born with. Everything that makes him terrible is what he has done with them. If you combine those two things together, you get a middle of the road talent whose raw athleticism bails him out enough to make up for below average ability in most other facets of his game.

I'm pretty convinced that if he were 4-5" shorter, he would be a significantly more impactful player with otherwise no increase in skill simply because he has no idea how to use his body to gain leverage during contact. He's like the Tyler Myers of the NFL.

 

 

16 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

 

 

What part(s) do you need explained? You may disagree with it, but it's absolutely rational.

To claim that Edmunds "is slow to read plays, has poor instincts, couldn't shed a block if there was a billion dollars behind the blocker, is a soft tackler, and despite the athleticism to keep up with WRs is terrible in pass coverage," would have been an exaggeration two years ago. He's certainly had some disappointing play in the past, but this season, he has been playing exceptionally well, and has become an above average LB (I would say better than that), and an intrinsic element to a very good defense. 

 

Your criticism of him not only ignores any improvements he has made (and they seem pretty undeniable to me), but it borders on disdain. You've gone as far as to somehow hold his exceptional athleticism against him, implying that he doesn't know how to use his own athletic ability. You post with the confidence of someone who has watched his play closely, but your observations just don't line up with what he has done in 2022. It seems like you were "pretty convinced" before the season started, and are not willing to reassess the player based on his current level of play.