Special Teams play not so special

[InTheBuffAllTheTime]

Fantastic showing against Denver. Probably as exciting a preseason game as I can recall. I actually watched the whole game! So many bubble players I wanted to see play.

 

As good as Offense and Defense both appear to be - as well as depth / rotation strength, there are 3 phases to the game and ST appears to be the weak link. Of course the coaches are still rotating players through different roles but there were not a lot of great plays on punt / kick coverage.

 

Bubble players have to focus on ST and make that their craft. Forget position needs for bubble players. Bills don't need more RB depth, WR depth, LB depth - they need ST starters! ST play will dictate who makes the final 53.

[Draconator]

Maketivich, Neal, and Jones didn't play. Tough to say 3 guys can make that much of a difference, but their lack of presence was felt. 

[nucci]

we rarely punt, most kickoffs by both teams go in the endzone....I agree special teams are important but may not need them as often as past years. if we are close to mid field I don't see us punting much at all this year except when obvious

[LyndonvilleBill]

Hard to see them on Punt coverage when you only punt once.🤣🤣

[shoretalk]

24 minutes ago, Draconator said:

Maketivich, Neal, and Jones didn't play. Tough to say 3 guys can make that much of a difference, but their lack of presence was felt. 

Twenty five percent should make a difference when they are your best players on this phase of the game.  Plus, I think I saw different numbers each time out on the kick-off's so they were trying to find one or two more solid players.  Of course we have no statistics on punt return special teams but at least no yellow flags.

[Tipster19]

31 minutes ago, InTheBuffAllTheTime said:

Fantastic showing against Denver. Probably as exciting a preseason game as I can recall. I actually watched the whole game! So many bubble players I wanted to see play.

 

As good as Offense and Defense both appear to be - as well as depth / rotation strength, there are 3 phases to the game and ST appears to be the weak link. Of course the coaches are still rotating players through different roles but there were not a lot of great plays on punt / kick coverage.

 

Bubble players have to focus on ST and make that their craft. Forget position needs for bubble players. Bills don't need more RB depth, WR depth, LB depth - they need ST starters! ST play will dictate who makes the final 53.

Totally agree.

[Royale with Cheese]

29 minutes ago, nucci said:

we rarely punt, most kickoffs by both teams go in the endzone....I agree special teams are important but may not need them as often as past years. if we are close to mid field I don't see us punting much at all this year except when obvious

 

Tyler Bass who has as strong leg as you can have had 56% of his kicks of his touchbacks.  He definitely has a strong enough leg to get it there but I think McDermott likes to have them return...get more air under it to allow the coverage team to get down there and make a play.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&sort=k_ktb&season=2021&seasonType=reg&sortOrder=desc

[InTheBuffAllTheTime]

28 minutes ago, nucci said:

we rarely punt, most kickoffs by both teams go in the endzone....I agree special teams are important but may not need them as often as past years. if we are close to mid field I don't see us punting much at all this year except when obvious

Of course in-season kick-off strategies change but they were clearly trying not to kick into the endzone in order to evaluate coverage. Hate to bring it up again (I really do) but most wanted a goal-line kick to start the "13 seconds". Need good coverage and tackling. 

 

Certainly not the same but did anyone else notice how much time was left on the clock near the end of the first half when the Bills kicked off? Yup, 13 seconds! Haha

[ddaryl]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Tyler Bass who has as strong leg as you can have had 56% of his kicks of his touchbacks.  He definitely has a strong enough leg to get it there but I think McDermott likes to have them return...get more air under it to allow the coverage team to get down there and make a play.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&sort=k_ktb&season=2021&seasonType=reg&sortOrder=desc

I agree here.. .Even punts are not going to be anywhere's close to 100% touchbacks

You cannot totally ignore coverage teams, but I can see them going with a young gun or too, I just don't see them letting all there top STs players walk.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

we rarely punt, most kickoffs by both teams go in the endzone....I agree special teams are important but may not need them as often as past years. if we are close to mid field I don't see us punting much at all this year except when obvious

 

Bass kicked 56/99 for touchbacks, and this seems to be around the league average. Some guys are higher - 2 regular guys hit TBs on about 80% of kickoffs - but they don't play 8 games in Buffalo with another in NE for good measure.  

 

We had among the lowest yards per return on both punts and kicks.  We were 17th in defensive drive starting field position despite one of the worst punters in the league.  They addressed the punting, but I do think they like to kick short from time to time on kickoffs.  Difference from 17th to 1st is about 3 yards - so over 186 drives that's about 558 yards of field position.  

 

Special teams players also block btw... its a lot harder to get any yards on a return with lousy blocking.  Teams can exploit this and kick short on kickoffs, and kick deeper punts since an inexperienced special teams group might block poorly, or get more penalties.  

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

I agree here.. .Even punts are not going to be anywhere's close to 100% touchbacks

You cannot totally ignore coverage teams, but I can see them going with a young gun or too, I just don't see them letting all there top STs players walk.

 

Touchbacks for punts are typically bad as they're likely to occur when you're punting from plus territory.  

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Bass kicked 56/99 for touchbacks, and this seems to be around the league average. Some guys are higher - 2 regular guys hit TBs on about 80% of kickoffs - but they don't play 8 games in Buffalo with another in NE for good measure.  

 

We had among the lowest yards per return on both punts and kicks.  We were 17th in defensive drive starting field position despite one of the worst punters in the league.  They addressed the punting, but I do think they like to kick short from time to time on kickoffs.  Difference from 17th to 1st is about 3 yards - so over 186 drives that's about 558 yards of field position.  

 

Special teams players also block btw... its a lot harder to get any yards on a return with lousy blocking.  Teams can exploit this and kick short on kickoffs, and kick deeper punts since an inexperienced special teams group might block poorly, or get more penalties.  

Just my 2 cents, but if you have a kicker who can boot it deep into the EZ, and you sometimes have him intentionally kick it short, you have a ST coach who is overthinking it. 

[billybrew1]

2 hours ago, Draconator said:

Maketivich, Neal, and Jones didn't play. Tough to say 3 guys can make that much of a difference, but their lack of presence was felt. 

Did Kumerow play STs? I don’t think he did either….

[Big Turk]

Don't think many if any core ST players were playing...think they are seeing what other players have to offer to see if they are safe to keep other players who might offer more on offense/defense over players who are pretty much just ST players.

[mrags]

2 hours ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

Hard to see them on Punt coverage when you only punt once.🤣🤣

This is 100% why you don’t care about carrying a bunch of STs aces. It’s a waste for us. 

7 minutes ago, billybrew1 said:

Did Kumerow play STs? I don’t think he did either….

He did 

[jkeerie]

7 minutes ago, billybrew1 said:

Did Kumerow play STs? I don’t think he did either….

I believe he did.

[blacklabel]

18 minutes ago, BTB said:

Just my 2 cents, but if you have a kicker who can boot it deep into the EZ, and you sometimes have him intentionally kick it short, you have a ST coach who is overthinking it. 

 

I can see what you're saying, just boot it thru the EZ every time. I'm sure there are times kickers just don't quite get all of it and it's a returnable ball. But I'm also sure there are times the ST coach might want the kick to be returnable for a number of reasons. Maybe the returner has bobbled the previous kick and they're thinking maybe they'll get a turnover. The other reason I could think is maybe they feel they could pin them back behind the 25 yard line and give them a longer field. Also, once the returner catches the ball, the clock starts which would be handy if your team was ahead with a few seconds to go and wanted to leave the opponent with as little time as possible. I'm trying super hard to figure out a game where that happened tho and I just can't seem to come up with anything....

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

Kick/Punt coverage has been terrible for most teams in preseason. They're constantly swapping around players including rookies who have never played special teams before. I expect our unit to be more competent for the regular season.

[mushypeaches]

My god, if you're complaining about coverage units in the pre-season having a few challenges, you might need to do some critical thinking about a couple of things:

 

1. The players that aren't playing in the game that might just might be really good at special teams.  I heard there were a few of those in that group last week
2. The players that are playing in the game that aren't making the team
3. The fact that it's pre-season

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

40 minutes ago, BTB said:

Just my 2 cents, but if you have a kicker who can boot it deep into the EZ, and you sometimes have him intentionally kick it short, you have a ST coach who is overthinking it. 

 

I think Wind somewhat plays into it, rather than just boot it deep you may want to kick to a specific side of the field and crash, etc.  

[Rocky Landing]

2 hours ago, nucci said:

we rarely punt, most kickoffs by both teams go in the endzone....I agree special teams are important but may not need them as often as past years. if we are close to mid field I don't see us punting much at all this year except when obvious

I'm know you know this, but it's worth mentioning that punt returns are also important, and field position certainly matters. 

 

It's also worth mentioning that the games in which special teams will matter the most are against the toughest opponents we face. Maybe we don't need an A-game special teams unit against the Jets, but against the Ravens, Chiefs, Packers, Bengals, and into the playoffs? ST will be far more important than carrying everyone's favorite #7WR, or #4RB.

[MJS]

All our special teams stars sat. This is why it looked so bad.

 

For those who thought that it doesn't make a difference, here is the evidence that it does.

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

All our special teams stars sat. This is why it looked so bad.

 

For those who thought that it doesn't make a difference, here is the evidence that it does.

Preseason games are rarely “evidence” of anything…good or bad.  Case in point…Keenum game #1 vs Keenum game #2. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by BTB

[ColoradoBills]

3 hours ago, InTheBuffAllTheTime said:

Bubble players have to focus on ST and make that their craft. Forget position needs for bubble players. Bills don't need more RB depth, WR depth, LB depth - they need ST starters! ST play will dictate who makes the final 53.

 

There was a lot of the bubble guys playing Saturday.  I saw DE Kingsley Johnathan defending on a Kickoff.  He's a 4th stringer.

Maybe some of the looks these guys were getting was more about who to keep for PS than trying to make the team roster.

[Utah John]

Coaches think about everything.  They watch how all the blockers on KO and punt returns do things.  If they even think there's a good chance that a blocker on a KO return can be maneuvered into committing a penalty, that's a factor in favor of not kicking into the end zone.  If an opponent consistently doesn't return KO's past the 25, that's another reason to not kick it into the end zone.  

[Rocky Landing]

1 hour ago, BTB said:

Preseason games are rarely “evidence” of anything…good or bad.  Case in point…Keenum game #1 vs Keenum game #2. 

Preseason games have various functions, and one of those functions is to evaluate how well potential backup players, or those who are lower on the depth chart, perform on special teams. And that is certainly an evidence-based evaluation.

[AuntieEm]

1 hour ago, mushypeaches said:

My god, if you're complaining about coverage units in the pre-season having a few challenges, you might need to do some critical thinking about a couple of things:

 

1. The players that aren't playing in the game that might just might be really good at special teams.  I heard there were a few of those in that group last week
2. The players that are playing in the game that aren't making the team
3. The fact that it's pre-season

 

 

 P Add

       4. ST plays have higher rates of collision injuries which is why there have been many rule changes trying to bring that rate down.  Even with many of the at risk players likely to be cut anyway why add to the number of players that have injury claims before they wash out of league

 

 

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, Utah John said:

Coaches think about everything.  They watch how all the blockers on KO and punt returns do things.  If they even think there's a good chance that a blocker on a KO return can be maneuvered into committing a penalty, that's a factor in favor of not kicking into the end zone.  If an opponent consistently doesn't return KO's past the 25, that's another reason to not kick it into the end zone.  

 

STC Smalley in his presser confirmed everything you just posted.  He added as an example, kickoffs through the endzone or short of the 

goal line is determined by the opposing team's capabilities/weather and game planning.

 

He also said (not enough people listen to it) that he rates all of the ST positions and players and gives that input to McDermott and Beane

They take that info along with the position coach's input to determine the roster.  He then said he works out the best STs he can with

the players he receives knowing the priority goes to the offense and defense.

 

It is a 2-way street I'm sure, but Smalley also has a responsibility to develop the guys he's assigned.  He has to work with who he gets

just like the OC and DC and make the best of it.

[Bob in STL]

3 hours ago, blacklabel said:

 

I can see what you're saying, just boot it thru the EZ every time. I'm sure there are times kickers just don't quite get all of it and it's a returnable ball. But I'm also sure there are times the ST coach might want the kick to be returnable for a number of reasons. Maybe the returner has bobbled the previous kick and they're thinking maybe they'll get a turnover. The other reason I could think is maybe they feel they could pin them back behind the 25 yard line and give them a longer field. Also, once the returner catches the ball, the clock starts which would be handy if your team was ahead with a few seconds to go and wanted to leave the opponent with as little time as possible. I'm trying super hard to figure out a game where that happened tho and I just can't seem to come up with anything....

Good one! 

[hemma]

“All” of our STs did not sit.  On our 3rd kickoff, Kumerow waved goodbye to the returner at the 18.

In a later KO, he made/assisted the tackle at the 33.  Probably was in there for more, but I stopped looking.

 

McCloud - probably will not make the roster -did not wrap up on the 2nd KO.  If he had, they would’ve started at the 12.

 

So there was a mix of players.