Training Camp practice 8/10

[Doc]

2 hours ago, MiltonWaddams said:

I do like Blue Cheese better than ranch...AND I really enjoy Carrie Underwood's legs....

 

....and Le Big Mac better than...

 

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

 

With a 4.6 hang time.

[Alphadawg7]

In regards to Elam vs Benford

 

Its way too early to read anything into either of these players yet.  If Benford ends up being a very good player and starter, doesn’t mean Elam is a mistake, bust or what ever.  I mean no one enters a draft with the mindset you’re gonna bank on finding a 5th rounder who ascends to your starter week 1.  
 

Once you’re drafted, that’s it.  Draft status means nothing other than what you’re gonna get paid on your first contract.  After that, it’s all about what you do on the field.  
 

And if Benford was to surprise and appear more ready to start week 1, by no means does that end Elams career or make him a bust.  Not every rookie is ready to start week 1.  If they feel Elam is still working on being too handsy for instance, they may work him along slower.  
 

But all in all, I think the info coming out on both is good news and good to see.  Both seem to be improving, and both might prove to be good players 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

In regards to Elam vs Benford

 

Its way too early to read anything into either of these players yet.  If Benford ends up being a very good player and starter, doesn’t mean Elam is a mistake, bust or what ever.  I mean no one enters a draft with the mindset you’re gonna bank on finding a 5th rounder who ascends to your starter week 1.  
 

Once you’re drafted, that’s it.  Draft status means nothing other than what you’re gonna get paid on your first contract.  After that, it’s all about what you do on the field.  
 

And if Benford was to surprise and appear more ready to start week 1, by no means does that end Elams career or make him a bust.  Not every rookie is ready to start week 1.  If they feel Elam is still working on being too handsy for instance, they may work him along slower.  
 

But all in all, I think the info coming out on both is good news and good to see.  Both seem to be improving, and both might prove to be good players 

I may be wrong but I took Elam's "struggles" as they are teaching him a new coverage......against very good receivers but they knew that he was a press man corner when they drafted him and they will probably having him playing press man a bunch in the defensive sysem.

 

Now Benford?   He screams Levi Wallace to me which isnt necesarily a bad thing

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Davis could make his legs even sexier by dripping ranch all over them.....

 

Davis could make his legs even sexier by having Carrie Underwood all over them.

[Alphadawg7]

36 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I may be wrong but I took Elam's "struggles" as they are teaching him a new coverage......against very good receivers but they knew that he was a press man corner when they drafted him and they will probably having him playing press man a bunch in the defensive sysem.

 

Now Benford?   He screams Levi Wallace to me which isnt necesarily a bad thing

Yeah they seem to definitely be working on his weaknesses and he seems to be responding well and getting better.  
 

Elam is someone I think has the drive, coachability, and intelligence to rapidly improve theses areas.  
 

I assume if Tre is back week 1 that Dane starts opposite him week 1.  But Elam IMHO has a very bright future ahead of him 

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

i got a full five one-thousand on that one.

[CSBill]

9 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Gabe Davis has better legs than Carrie Underwood.

 

nope

[YoloinOhio]

 

[wppete]

11 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

big baby

[SBbeliever]

10 hours ago, whorlnut said:

It would prove my original theory that McD knows DBs and can coach up a late rounder into a solid player. I never thought we needed a first round corner, but whatever…

They coached up Wallace as a free agent into a starter.  #1 pick CB's are a tough call.

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

Not into autographs but I definitely would love a picture with Josh and Jim.  Its so great that our team does this for the kids.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Coaching can't teach things like speed and quickness etc. As everyone agrees Levi was a good CB but he wasn't great because he lacked some physical skills that usually drafted moreso early round drafted players have. 

 

 

By the same token Levi is a better NFL CB than a number of players drafted in the early rounds since his selection.

 

Elam has the physical measurables to be a very good CB but it's also not like he was a "great" prospect.........he just had some 1st or 2nd round traits.    Not all of them by any means.

 

I'm not comparing him apples-to-apples with Shaq Lawson in terms of 1st round measurables for his position coming out but there was a little "this guy fits a need and could be an off-the-bus starter" just like Shaq IMO..........and perhaps a willingness to overlook some weaknesses(like Shaq) that they might have scored harder against him if they didn't see it as such a high priority need(which I don't believe it necessarily was).  

[beerme1]

10 hours ago, MPL said:

 

I think Winfield was gone and Clements was on his way out by the time McGee came into his own. I feel like I remember him getting torched a ton and being a liability his first couple of seasons in the league. 

 

Do not ever speak ill of T McGee who has one of the ultimate Bills plays in history. That of course just fell short. Loved T McGee! Was a great Bill but would agree his first couple years had some struggles.

9 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

My two favorite players of all time.

 

Man, it is tough seeing Jim looking old. 

 

He sounded great and looked great though so that is great to see.

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, SBbeliever said:

They coached up Wallace as a free agent into a starter.  #1 pick CB's are a tough call.

Jalen Ramsey , Gilmore , White , revis , Peterson , 

 

All multiple time all pros in the last 10-15 years were 1st round picks 

 

Sure you can get good corners later but they’re usually scheme dependent… The dude who can do it all go early

[gobills404]

51 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Jalen Ramsey , Gilmore , White , revis , Peterson , 

 

All multiple time all pros in the last 10-15 years were 1st round picks 

 

Sure you can get good corners later but they’re usually scheme dependent… The dude who can do it all go early

And 5 of the 6 corners that got all-pro votes this past year were taken in the first 2 rounds

[YattaOkasan]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

By the same token Levi is a better NFL CB than a number of players drafted in the early rounds since his selection.

 

Elam has the physical measurables to be a very good CB but it's also not like he was a "great" prospect.........he just had some 1st or 2nd round traits.    Not all of them by any means.

 

I'm not comparing him apples-to-apples with Shaq Lawson in terms of 1st round measurables for his position coming out but there was a little "this guy fits a need and could be an off-the-bus starter" just like Shaq IMO..........and perhaps a willingness to overlook some weaknesses(like Shaq) that they might have scored harder against him if they didn't see it as such a high priority need(which I don't believe it necessarily was).  

Would say Elam was more of a need as we had to be concerned we only had backup quality at the position (Rex at least had Hughes). 

 

But I also trust this FO to make moves to fill needs more than the Whaley FO. I suspect they felt comfortable being able to get him the whole time. 

[BobbyC81]

15 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He shouldn't have worn an under shirt....

 

 

 

 

Maybe that’s the only way Poyer would let him wear it. 

[Chandler#81]

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

In regards to Elam vs Benford

 

Its way too early to read anything into either of these players yet.  If Benford ends up being a very good player and starter, doesn’t mean Elam is a mistake, bust or what ever.  I mean no one enters a draft with the mindset you’re gonna bank on finding a 5th rounder who ascends to your starter week 1.  
 

Once you’re drafted, that’s it.  Draft status means nothing other than what you’re gonna get paid on your first contract.  After that, it’s all about what you do on the field.  
 

And if Benford was to surprise and appear more ready to start week 1, by no means does that end Elams career or make him a bust.  Not every rookie is ready to start week 1.  If they feel Elam is still working on being too handsy for instance, they may work him along slower.  
 

But all in all, I think the info coming out on both is good news and good to see.  Both seem to be improving, and both might prove to be good players 

 

Elam was always the rawest of those top 7 corners in this class. He was always the one who needed the most technical refinement. He, not unusually for Beane picks, is a toolsy ceiling guy. I think some of his struggles in camp are somewhat concerning in that they are the same issues I saw on his college film - handsy and struggles in transitions... but there have also been the flashes of his athleticism and his competitiveness. I agree it is not the end of the world if he either isn't ready week 1 or has to take some lumps early in his rookie year - especially given that other than the Rams our first five games are not exactly a murderer's row of passing attacks. 

 

Benford is another toolsy, high ceiling guy - and in that sense I don't agree with @John from Riverside that he screams Levi Wallace. Benford went late because of his level of competition and rawness. Levi went undrafted because of his lack of athleticism and his physical limitations. He has been a nice surprise in camp from all reports. I'm anxious to get a look at him on the field on Saturday. 

[Bill from NYC]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

By the same token Levi is a better NFL CB than a number of players drafted in the early rounds since his selection.

 

Elam has the physical measurables to be a very good CB but it's also not like he was a "great" prospect.........he just had some 1st or 2nd round traits.    Not all of them by any means.

 

I'm not comparing him apples-to-apples with Shaq Lawson in terms of 1st round measurables for his position coming out but there was a little "this guy fits a need and could be an off-the-bus starter" just like Shaq IMO..........and perhaps a willingness to overlook some weaknesses(like Shaq) that they might have scored harder against him if they didn't see it as such a high priority need(which I don't believe it necessarily was).  

It would be absolutely GREAT if both of these guys develop into great players. If this happens, maybe.....just maybe we can forget about corners in the next draft and concentrate on safeties!

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

It would be absolutely GREAT if both of these guys develop into great players. If this happens, maybe.....just maybe we can forget about corners in the next draft and concentrate on safeties!

 

Come on Bill I know you are scarred by previous regimes but this regime has made EIGHTEEN picks on days 1 and 2 of the draft since they have been here. Only TWO have been spent on defensive backs - Tre White in 2017 and Kaiir Elam in 2022. I don't think it is fair to suggest that this regime has over invested draft picks on DBs. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Elam was always the rawest of those top 7 corners in this class. He was always the one who needed the most technical refinement. He, not unusually for Beane picks, is a toolsy ceiling guy. I think some of his struggles in camp are somewhat concerning in that they are the same issues I saw on his college film - handsy and struggles in transitions... but there have also been the flashes of his athleticism and his competitiveness. I agree it is not the end of the world if he either isn't ready week 1 or has to take some lumps early in his rookie year - especially given that other than the Rams our first five games are not exactly a murderer's row of passing attacks. 

 

Benford is another toolsy, high ceiling guy - and in that sense I don't agree with @John from Riverside that he screams Levi Wallace. Benford went late because of his level of competition and rawness. Levi went undrafted because of his lack of athleticism and his physical limitations. He has been a nice surprise in camp from all reports. I'm anxious to get a look at him on the field on Saturday. 

I realize that they’re different level of athleticism players more speaking on late draft the undrafted free agent that could pan out into a quality player

[Bill from NYC]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Come on Bill I know you are scarred by previous regimes but this regime has made EIGHTEEN picks on days 1 and 2 of the draft since they have been here. Only TWO have been spent on defensive backs - Tre White in 2017 and Kaiir Elam in 2022. I don't think it is fair to suggest that this regime has over invested draft picks on DBs. 

Either way, we need blockers to protect our potential HOF QB. That does seem pretty simple and obvious to me.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

Either way, we need blockers to protect our potential HOF QB. That does seem pretty simple and obvious to me.

 

They have spent more day 1 and 2 picks on blockers than they have on DBs. The problem is one of them - Cody Ford - is an almighty bust. 

[HappyDays]

Joe Marino was at camp yesterday and he thinks Elam wants to succeed so badly that he is "over-repping" and thinking too much about his technique instead of just playing his game.

 

He seems really coachable, I think the technique will smooth itself out over time once the reps have become instinctual instead of robotic. But no one should be surprised if he doesn't hit the ground running as a rookie. By all accounts he had awful coaching at Florida so he is a raw player with certain techniques that need to be coached out of him before new techniques can be taught. In many ways it reminds me of Josh Allen as a rookie. Luckily we have some of the best DB coaches in the game working with him.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Bill from NYC]

31 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They have spent more day 1 and 2 picks on blockers than they have on DBs. The problem is one of them - Cody Ford - is an almighty bust. 

Not enough, unless you are satisfied with the OL as it stands.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

Not enough, unless you are satisfied with the OL as it stands.

 

I am not. But it isn't because of an over emphasis on defensive backs. See below. If there are any "over emphasised" positions there they are DL and RB. 

 

1 QB

3 OL

3 RB

1 WR (plus a trade for Diggs)

1 TE

5 DL

2 LB

2 DB

 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Joe Marino was at camp yesterday and he thinks Elam wants to succeed so badly that he is "over-repping" and thinking too much about his technique instead of just playing his game.

 

He seems really coachable, I think the technique will smooth itself out over time once the reps have become instinctual instead of robotic. But no one should be surprised if he doesn't hit the ground running as a rookie. By all accounts he had awful coaching at Florida so he is a raw player with certain techniques that need to be coached out of him before new techniques can be taught. In many ways it reminds me of Josh Allen as a rookie. Luckily we have some of the best DB coaches in the game working with him.

And vet mentors (Tre, Hyde, poyer)

[Shaw66]

12 hours ago, beerme1 said:

 

Do not ever speak ill of T McGee who has one of the ultimate Bills plays in history. That of course just fell short. Loved T McGee! Was a great Bill but would agree his first couple years had some struggles.

 

The KO eerurn was o e of the greatest ever.

 

McGee was a good example of how players improve.  It was all about playing the position smart.  He was dependable plus.  

 

One of my favorites.

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not. But it isn't because of an over emphasis on defensive backs. See below. If there are any "over emphasised" positions there they are DL and RB. 

 

1 QB

3 OL

3 RB

1 WR (plus a trade for Diggs)

1 TE

5 DL

2 LB

2 DB

 

As McD sees it, he "starts" eight DL and only five OL, so this ratio is about right. 

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not. But it isn't because of an over emphasis on defensive backs. See below. If there are any "over emphasised" positions there they are DL and RB. 

 

1 QB

3 OL

3 RB

1 WR (plus a trade for Diggs)

1 TE

5 DL

2 LB

2 DB

 

Those numbers mean little. They fail to take into account that one first round corner was a trade-up. The other a trade down away from Mahomes. 

[Beck Water]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

It would be absolutely GREAT if both of these guys develop into great players. If this happens, maybe.....just maybe we can forget about corners in the next draft and concentrate on safeties!

 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Come on Bill I know you are scarred by previous regimes but this regime has made EIGHTEEN picks on days 1 and 2 of the draft since they have been here. Only TWO have been spent on defensive backs - Tre White in 2017 and Kaiir Elam in 2022. I don't think it is fair to suggest that this regime has over invested draft picks on DBs. 

 

DL is the new DB, c'mon guys try to keep up

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

As McD sees it, he "starts" eight DL and only five OL, so this ratio is about right. 

 

Fair but I don't think that is sustainable.

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Those numbers mean little. They fail to take into account that one first round corner was a trade-up. The other a trade down away from Mahomes. 

 

I am afraid I don't agree Bill. Your vendetta against DBs early is clouding your judgment. This regime has NOT prioritised DBs above other areas. That is simply an unmakeable argument.

[ColoradoBills]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I am afraid I don't agree Bill. Your vendetta against DBs early is clouding your judgment. This regime has NOT prioritised DBs above other areas. That is simply an unmakeable argument.

 

I agree Gunner.  The argument can be made that the vast number of CBs on the Bills the last few years are Day 3 picks along with UDFAs.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Fair but I don't think that is sustainable.

 

Well, I don't know, for sure, but it certainly seems McBeane believe it's sustainable.  The eight-man rotation has always been their model for the defense.   They obviously believe that they can acquire and train talent to get what they want out of a D-line: sufficient pressure on the passer and at least decent run stopping.  That is what they believe in.   

 

Given that's what they believe is the model, then they have modify the roster, because the draft and cap capital that it takes do that means there are less resources dedicated to some other positions.    And that's exactly why we see McDermott wanting and cultivating guys with position versatility.   Guys like Bates and Gilliam and McKenzie aren't necessarily great at any single position but can contribute passably at several positions.   

 

Beane and McDermott believe that's the allocation of resources that is the optimal way to build a consistent, long-term winning roster.  It's a defense-first oriented philosophy:  we will win by having the best defense, and we can have the best defense over the long term by being good on the d-line, and we can have the best best d-line if we rotate eight good d-linemen.   We will scramble at some other roster spots, but we can manage that.   Obviously, they aren't ignoring the offense, but they are allocating more resources to the defense than to the offense (quarterback aside).  And, interestingly enough, the guys I've been talking about as examples - Gilliam, Bates, and McKenzie, all are offensive players.  

 

They wouldn't be following that model if they didn't believe it's sustainable.  Whether they are correct will be determined over the next five to ten years, as the Bills rise and fall or rise and stay on top.   

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

They are absolutely a defensive first organization….I’m with @GunnerBill in that I don’t think that approach is sustainable… specifically in a league that favors the offense… you can’t pay everyone, and if they start paying guys like Edmunds, and Poyer with mediocre drafts in between they’ll quickly become mediocre…. See the Seattle Seahawks. 
 

The last 3 SB winners had a good balance of asset allocation and depth both offensively and defensively (outside of maybe KC who was more offensive heavy)…. If a couple key injuries hit the Bills offense like Diggs, Davis or Dawkins or Morse they’ll have their share of struggles, whereas the defense has the depth to withstand some key injuries IMO…. I think I’ve made it known I’m not a fan of the defensive heavy approach and I’d prefer the opposite if your going to favor any side of the ball.

 

Yea. How sustainable is an 8 or 9 deep defensive line rotation once Josh Allen's big numbers kick in? Because then it is hard to have three vet DTs getting paid plus a big money pass rusher. You might say but look Ed Oliver and three of the edge guys are on rookie deals to balance it... and yes, they are. But that is two 1st round picks and two 2nd round picks. If as money gets tight you try and ween yourself off the vets and have to plough more and more draft resource in then you are at serious risk of neglegting the offense. Brandon Beane has never drafted a receiver higher than the 4th round in five drafts. That isn't sustainable even if Shakir like Gabe ends up out performing his slot. And @BillfromNYC is right that the offensive line remains a question mark. At some point the Bills will HAVE to trust themselves to find some gems for the defensive line later in the draft the way they have trusted themselves to do that with DBs and WRs.