JaCrispy Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 Abortion is probably one of the most difficult and complicated issues humanity will ever have to deal with imo… That being said, I can understand how both sides might think the Constitution defends their view… 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Beach said: i am pro-choice, but i am enjoying the liberal tears for a little bit Good, I'm still enjoying Trump's defeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Good, I'm still enjoying Trump's defeat You see, you make it personal- about Trump, while seeming to ignore how worse off the country has been the last 17 months, since he’s been out of office… I don’t want Trump as president either, but I’m not going to just pretend that we weren’t better off with him running the country… 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: You see, you make it personal- about Trump, while seeming to ignore how worse off the country has been the last 17 months, since he’s been out of office… I don’t want Trump as president either, but I’m not going to just pretend that we weren’t better off with him running the country… Personal? About a politician? What? What are you talking about? And your argument makes no sense. You mean since Covid? Trump was prez when that started and we have been with that ever since. The guy tried overthrowing the government but he supposidly in your mind made the trains run on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Personal? About a politician? What? What are you talking about? And your argument makes no sense. You mean since Covid? Trump was prez when that started and we have been with that ever since. The guy tried overthrowing the government but he supposidly in your mind made the trains run on time. What I’m talking about is that you seem to care more about Trump being defeated than the fact that the country has gone off a cliff since he’s been gone…And that’s not in my mind…it’s a reality that everyone sees, even if you pretend not to… 3 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Abortion is probably one of the most difficult and complicated issues humanity will ever have to deal with imo… That being said, I can understand how both sides might think the Constitution defends their view… That's interesting because the essence of Friday's SCOTUS ruling is the Roe v. Wade precedent established by the 1970's era court was invalid because the Constitution has no such protection. And therefore, they voided the previous ruling while sending it back to Congress and State legislatures. I re-read the Constitution this morning and conclude there is no such protection, and the current court is correct. I'm curious what Article (or Section) or Amendment anyone thinks provides protection or extends the "right" for abortions. Edited June 26, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said: That's interesting because the essence of Friday's SCOTUS ruling is the Roe v. Wade precedent established by the 1970's era court was invalid because the Constitution has no such protection. And therefore, they voided the previous ruling while sending it back to Congress and State legislatures. I'm curious what Article (or Section) or Amendment anyone thinks provides protection or extends the "right" for abortions. That’s the $64,000 question…the argument I keep hearing from pro choice advocates is that women’s rights to have autonomy over their own bodies is protected in the Constitution… This is why it’s such a complicated issue…I don’t know what the right answer is… But I do have a theory- the abortion debate will never be settled the way that it’s always been argued up to this point…it’s a no-win situation imo… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 Just now, JaCrispy said: That’s the $64,000 question…the argument I keep hearing from pro choice advocates is that women’s rights to have autonomy over their own bodies is protected in the Constitution… This is why it’s such a complicated issue…I don’t know what the right answer is… But I do have a theory- the abortion debate will never be settled the way that it’s always been argued up to this point…it’s a no-win situation imo… We agree on that. I've heard and seen a lot of slogans and one-liners from pro-choice supporters and advocates and politicians but no intelligent and clear argument that provides an answer to that question. I think this question is the first issue. The second is what kind and type of "protections" make sense. For the women and the unborn child. Most of the arguments I hear tend to mix the two together. One other thing I find ironic (there always seems to be something) is the same cast of characters raging on about "my body, my choice" are the same cast of characters supporting and encouraging the idea of sending storm troopers out during the pandemic in a house-to-house search to force vaccinate any non-conformers. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 7 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: We agree on that. I've heard and seen a lot of slogans and one-liners from pro-choice supporters and advocates and politicians but no intelligent and clear argument that provides an answer to that question. I think this question is the first issue. The second is what kind and type of "protections" make sense. For the women and the unborn child. Most of the arguments I hear tend to mix the two together. One other thing I find ironic (there always seems to be something) is the same cast of characters raging on about "my body, my choice" are the same cast of characters supporting and encouraging the idea of sending storm troopers out during the pandemic in a house-to-house search to force vaccinate any non-conformers. Simple question - should the government force you to get a vasectomy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Good, I'm still enjoying Trump's defeat that has nothing to do with the topic. you are just emotional right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 1 hour ago, JaCrispy said: That’s the $64,000 question…the argument I keep hearing from pro choice advocates is that women’s rights to have autonomy over their own bodies is protected in the Constitution… This is why it’s such a complicated issue…I don’t know what the right answer is… But I do have a theory- the abortion debate will never be settled the way that it’s always been argued up to this point…it’s a no-win situation imo… That is the entire point…the developing child is definitely NOT the woman’s body. It may be inside her but is clearly a distinct life that is also granted constitutional protection. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 7 hours ago, Andy1 said: Then this is where it gets illogical and indefensible. If a woman takes her one-year old baby to a doctor to be killed, she would be charged with accessory to murder or whatever the appropriate legal charge is. Under the logic of the hardliners, a woman taking her embryo/fetus to get an abortion is doing the same thing. To treat the two scenarios differently would be admitting that an embryo/fetus is not in fact the same as a person. What’s a “hardliner”, Andy? It’s a descriptive word, of course, but in the abortion discussion can have multiple meetings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted June 26, 2022 Share Posted June 26, 2022 17 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: That is the entire point…the developing child is definitely NOT the woman’s body. It may be inside her but is clearly a distinct life that is also granted constitutional protection. So, child support payments can begin immediately as well as health insurance for the child and mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 Totally salvageable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L Ron Burgundy Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 53 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Totally salvageable You're right. Anyone that calls that demonic is probably not salvageable. You didn't mention covid in a post congrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 The vast majority of this country supports abortion access through 12-15 weeks, with carve outs for rare exceptions after. States like NY and Cali won’t accept that. States like Texas and Missouri won’t either. We are witnessing the Balkanization of America .. and that may be a good thing. COVID Response Abortion LGBTQIA+ Bending of the Knee Education/Schooling/Children We have fundamentally different values that are increasingly incompatible as a nation. It’s better off that states become redder and bluer. Outside of flying up for a Bills game, I never want to set foot in Hochul’s New York again. Hopefully when “heartbeat” laws pass.. school choice etc, blue voters feel the same and move up north or out west. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: What’s a “hardliner”, Andy? It’s a descriptive word, of course, but in the abortion discussion can have multiple meetings. I am referring to those politicians whose position is no abortions period, from moment of conception, no exceptions. They equate abortion with murder. Clearly, at some point, the fetus has viability and abortions should not be allowed beyond that point. Edited June 27, 2022 by Andy1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Pokebball said: The difference, of course, is that the fetus is inside it's mother. That doesn't mean it's not a life. We are not going to come to some kind of agreement unless we're all willing to compromise. There are hundreds of buts like the one you mention above. Can we work through all of those and find a national solution we can all live with? I agree. Compromise is needed on all sides. I would suggest that abortion be made legal everywhere during the first 3-4 months of pregnancy. Make it illegal everywhere after 7 months. Between 4-7 months, states can do what they want. Edited June 27, 2022 by Andy1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T&C Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 The protesters of the ruling that I've seen strike me as people of walmart... the people that support it strike me as Target/mall people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 2 hours ago, SCBills said: The vast majority of this country supports abortion access through 12-15 weeks, with carve outs for rare exceptions after. States like NY and Cali won’t accept that. States like Texas and Missouri won’t either. We are witnessing the Balkanization of America .. and that may be a good thing. COVID Response Abortion LGBTQIA+ Bending of the Knee Education/Schooling/Children We have fundamentally different values that are increasingly incompatible as a nation. It’s better off that states become redder and bluer. Outside of flying up for a Bills game, I never want to set foot in Hochul’s New York again. Hopefully when “heartbeat” laws pass.. school choice etc, blue voters feel the same and move up north or out west. Bingo. It's over. There are ZERO common denominators. I've always been optimistic. These people are freaking gooooooone. A SCOTUS appointment (female) unable to define a woman - and NO ONE on the left cared - is the day it ended for me. We're done here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 Well the Red States will need to spend a fortune on new foster care. I doubt they start building orphanages . Not to worry the right wing of the Supreme Court will figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHillFan Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 14 hours ago, Tiberius said: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/anti-abortion-latinos-supreme-court-roe-v-wade-rcna27538 Reps should of had a slam dunk win in Nov, now this ruling has pumped up Dems...I mean along with the fact Reps might just end the republic. What is your reasoning for thinking “Reps should of had a slam dunk win in Nov”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 https://www.yahoo.com/news/aoc-says-supreme-court-justices-155701061.html AOC is now arguing that Roe vs Wade was not the law of the land for the past 50 years. But the best statement from her is that she "believes" perjury is an impeachable offense, which is like saying I believe water is necessary for life, it is not a belief it is a fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 15 hours ago, BillStime said: Simple question - should the government force you to get a vasectomy? All I asked is for anyone supporting the idea the Constitution protects the "right" to an abortion is for them to identify which Article or Amendment grants that right. There are some 7 Articles and 27 Amendments. Pick one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 5 hours ago, ALF said: Well the Red States will need to spend a fortune on new foster care. I doubt they start building orphanages . Not to worry the right wing of the Supreme Court will figure it out. That’s not the Supreme Court’s job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 6 hours ago, ALF said: Well the Red States will need to spend a fortune on new foster care. I doubt they start building orphanages . Not to worry the right wing of the Supreme Court will figure it out. Catholic and Evangelical Ministries are already stepping up efforts in these states to provide, not just help during the pregnancy, but 2-3 years of assistance for the mother after they have the child, plus help in getting them on their feet after. This is what’s needed. A community effort of like minded people that value life and put their money, time and attention where their mouth is. The government can’t solve all of our problems. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 40 minutes ago, FireChans said: That’s not the Supreme Court’s job. You don't say , I was being sarcastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 27, 2022 Author Share Posted June 27, 2022 The Democrats’ lies on abortion since SCOTUS’ overruling of Roe v. Wade by Miranda Devine Abortion enthusiasts have been telling so many lies since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade last week, it’s hard to take them seriously. Now President Biden and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are salivating at the prospect that “abortion is on the ballot,” as opposed to inflation, crime, border security and all the issues that have the Democrats under water and without a viable policy. But abortion may not be the electoral game-changer they hope for, and largely that’s because the lies they tell themselves and their supporters have caused them to lose touch with the reality of America. https://nypost.com/2022/06/26/the-democrats-lies-on-abortion-since-scotus-overruling-of-roe-v-wade/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 6 minutes ago, ALF said: You don't say , I was being sarcastic It’s not their job to figure anything out so being sarcastic or not, it does not really make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 11 hours ago, Andy1 said: I agree. Compromise is needed on all sides. I would suggest that abortion be made legal everywhere during the first 3-4 months of pregnancy. Make it illegal everywhere after 7 months. Between 4-7 months, states can do what they want. That’s kind of where we were headed if the Court had 3 more John Roberts clones instead of 3 Robert Bork clones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said: All I asked is for anyone supporting the idea the Constitution protects the "right" to an abortion is for them to identify which Article or Amendment grants that right. There are some 7 Articles and 27 Amendments. Pick one. The 9th and the 14th amendments, generally. When the Bill of Rights was being debated, some founders opposed the idea, thinking that listing out rights would imply that anything not on the list would not be a right. It would be impossible to come up with an exhaustive list of all rights people were entitled to, so any list would be inherently deficient. Such a list could also be used to curtail rights that were not enumerated in the document. This is where the 9th amendment and unenumerated rights come from. Unenumerated rights are simply rights that are inferred from other rights or laws that are more explicitly spelled out. The 9th Amendment, ratified with the Bill of Rights in 1789, reads: Quote The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. This is to combat the argument that the Bill of Rights is exhaustive of all rights and that any rights not appearing in any amendment are therefore not constitutional rights. The default position is that just because a right does not appear in the text does not mean it does not exist. Section one of the 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868, reads (emphasis mine): Quote All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This is where the Supreme Court finds a right to privacy for Americans and their right to make personal decisions about their family without intrusive government interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 32 minutes ago, FireChans said: It’s not their job to figure anything out so being sarcastic or not, it does not really make any sense. If it's not the job of the Supreme Court to figure out and interpret the Constitution then what is their job "As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) Just now, ALF said: If it's not the job of the Supreme Court to figure out and interpret the Constitution then what is their job "As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution." They did do that. It's not their job to legislate past their rulings. That's the states' job. Because that was the ruling. Edited June 27, 2022 by FireChans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 10 hours ago, T&C said: The protesters of the ruling that I've seen strike me as people of walmart... the people that support it strike me as Target/mall people. Thats interesting. Pro-choice is prevalent amongst the more educated, higher income, and younger population. Pro-life is most popular among low-income, less educated Americans. https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 Protestors in general tend to be among the lower castes. They have daylight hours to commit to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle23 Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 1 hour ago, B-Man said: The Democrats’ lies on abortion since SCOTUS’ overruling of Roe v. Wade by Miranda Devine Abortion enthusiasts have been telling so many lies since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade last week, it’s hard to take them seriously. Now President Biden and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are salivating at the prospect that “abortion is on the ballot,” as opposed to inflation, crime, border security and all the issues that have the Democrats under water and without a viable policy. But abortion may not be the electoral game-changer they hope for, and largely that’s because the lies they tell themselves and their supporters have caused them to lose touch with the reality of America. https://nypost.com/2022/06/26/the-democrats-lies-on-abortion-since-scotus-overruling-of-roe-v-wade/ The first time a church says it will deny communion to anyone who agrees with abortion is the time that church should lose all tax exempt status. I am not saying a church should support it as I understand why they wouldn't, but if Jesus can forgive the criminal hanging next to him on the cross, then it is not the church's place to pass judgement and deny people for things the church disagrees with. If the church wants to be political, it can pay taxes like anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 I have a real question- what will be policy for companies that are paying for women to travel to get abortions if women travels and then changes her mind? I know it happens sometimes but what is to stop a women from simply traveling for a vacation when she gets pregnant? I just see a lot of privacy issues popping up from these policies that will be interesting to watch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 52 minutes ago, cle23 said: The first time a church says it will deny communion to anyone who agrees with abortion is the time that church should lose all tax exempt status. I am not saying a church should support it as I understand why they wouldn't, but if Jesus can forgive the criminal hanging next to him on the cross, then it is not the church's place to pass judgement and deny people for things the church disagrees with. If the church wants to be political, it can pay taxes like anyone else. I don’t know how I feel about denying Communion to individuals with opinions counter to the Church, but I do agree with denying it to people like Biden and Pelosi, supposed Catholics, who are actively working to make America have the most aggressive abortion access in the entire world … something completely counter to the churches teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I have a real question- what will be policy for companies that are paying for women to travel to get abortions if women travels and then changes her mind? I know it happens sometimes but what is to stop a women from simply traveling for a vacation when she gets pregnant? I just see a lot of privacy issues popping up from these policies that will be interesting to watch. I’m pro life but have no problem if a company wants to expand its health insurance plan to reimburses employees for travel to receive covered procedures. I’m sure people travel for cancer treatment or to see specialists. However, the issue will be with the insurance carrier if it turns out a fraud has been perpetrated. Years ago my wife had her appendix rupture while we were on a cruise. The carrier asked some questions but ultimately paid for the procedure. Edited June 27, 2022 by SoCal Deek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I have a real question- what will be policy for companies that are paying for women to travel to get abortions if women travels and then changes her mind? I know it happens sometimes but what is to stop a women from simply traveling for a vacation when she gets pregnant? I just see a lot of privacy issues popping up from these policies that will be interesting to watch. Women just can't be trusted, man. I advise all of you to continue to be wildly unattractive to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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