Your Top 3 Players from the "Drought Era" you'd add to the current roster

[eball]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It never fails.........the further you get into the offseason the more people forget how the games actually unfold.    Their OL was simply terrible for most of 2021.   I know they added Kromer but at the same time they are talking about more outside zone running..........even though the secondary reason(behind using Allen like a battering ram) to the OL playing better toward the end was getting away from the outside zone blocking.

 

I’m not an OL expert by any means, but (a) it took Dawkins half a season to get over Covid, (b) Bobby Johnson was/is awful, and (c) they will enter this season with a more athletic line that suits zone blocking schemes more appropriately.

 

Dawkins and Morse are studs, Saffold is an upgrade, Bates played adequately when they finally put him in there, and Brown hopefully makes a nice 2nd year jump.  There is actually reason for optimism if you look for it.  Quessenberry, Mancz, and Doyle are decent depth, and probably Boettger too if he is recovered.

 

And Beach Chairs — the single best move the Bills made on their coaching staff.

 

I just don’t believe the OL is going to be the Bills’ weakness or hold them back.

 

 

[ProcessAccepted]

Eric Moulds

Fred Jackson

Torn between Terrence McGee and Takeo Spikes but would give the nod to McGee for our current roster needs

[Billsfanatixs]

Spielman, Spikes, and Paup

Good luck running against that LB core

[Shaw66]

Couple of thoughts:

 

Put all those guys together and you have a good team.  Except no QB.  

 

It's  a measure of much I think of Fred that I'd take him over Lynch.  Fred fits the team better and was nearly as good in short yardage.  Singletary is a Fred wannabe. 

 

Attitude is important.  No Darrus - we already know McD doesn't want him.  No Mario despite his talent.  For me, no Peters.  

 

Reuben Brown. Positional fit. 

 

Someone said Pat Williams.  I think he's my third.  Incredible fit on this d line.

 

Moulds is my honorable mention.  I love Kyle, and I can't argue with that pick, but his position isnt a need. Plus, if I have Fred, I dont need Kyle's leadership.   I'm leaving a couple of great corners off my list.  And Moorman didn't have the distance of modern punters, so despite his other strengths, no.  

 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Attitude is important.  No Darrus - we already know McD doesn't want him.  No Mario despite his talent.  For me, no Peters.  

 

 

So I take the point somewhat about Dareus and even Mario (though I maintain the attitude at fault there was Rex Ryan's not Mario Williams') but why Peters? Peters did nothing wrong in Buffalo IMO. He was being paid as a mid range right tackle after demonstrating ON THE FIELD to be one of the best left tackles in football for a season and a half. He then held out in camp, but turned up to play, didn't hold out into the season, went to the pro-bowl AGAIN and still the Bills weren't willing to give him top end left tackle money. Eventually after two years of the franchise failing to address it he was traded to somewhere where they immediately paid him as he should have been paid all along. 

 

That was on the Bills, not on Peters. 

[Rico]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Couple of thoughts:

 

Put all those guys together and you have a good team.  Except no QB.  

 

It's  a measure of much I think of Fred that I'd take him over Lynch.  Fred fits the team better and was nearly as good in short yardage.  Singletary is a Fred wannabe. 

 

Attitude is important.  No Darrus - we already know McD doesn't want him.  No Mario despite his talent.  For me, no Peters.  

 

Reuben Brown. Positional fit. 

 

Someone said Pat Williams.  I think he's my third.  Incredible fit on this d line.

 

Moulds is my honorable mention.  I love Kyle, and I can't argue with that pick, but his position isnt a need. Plus, if I have Fred, I dont need Kyle's leadership.   I'm leaving a couple of great corners off my list.  And Moorman didn't have the distance of modern punters, so despite his other strengths, no.  

 

McD might take an earlier version of Dareus that wasn’t already ruined by the trash organization.

[GoBills808]

37 minutes ago, Rico said:

McD might take an earlier version of Dareus that wasn’t already ruined by the trash organization.

I have to imagine this team is at the point where they'd take talent over questionable attitude...I mean they just brought Phillips back.

 

Having a squad that likes each other and locker room vibes are cool but winning a Super Bowl is better.

[Gugny]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:08 PM, Rico said:

Yeah, but he looked cool.

 

Thurman Merman!!!!

 

 

[GreggTX]

I'll go along with Ruben Brown. I'd add Kyle Williams and Jason Peters. There are others like Moulds, Fred and Lynch that would be great adds, but given the current roster, these 3 would be the biggest help right now because of the relative strengths and weaknesses. I think Brown would be fine at either G spot and we'd be fine with either combination at OT. I'll take London Fletcher over Edmunds too. Oh and let's add Pat Williams and Mario Williams so we can be the Buffalo Williams again.

Edited June 6, 2022 by GreggTX

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I take the point somewhat about Dareus and even Mario (though I maintain the attitude at fault there was Rex Ryan's not Mario Williams') but why Peters? Peters did nothing wrong in Buffalo IMO. He was being paid as a mid range right tackle after demonstrating ON THE FIELD to be one of the best left tackles in football for a season and a half. He then held out in camp, but turned up to play, didn't hold out into the season, went to the pro-bowl AGAIN and still the Bills weren't willing to give him top end left tackle money. Eventually after two years of the franchise failing to address it he was traded to somewhere where they immediately paid him as he should have been paid all along. 

 

That was on the Bills, not on Peters. 

I'm completely bought into the McDermott ethic.  Jason Peters took himself off the field altogether too much for my liking.   All through his career.    Off the field for plays and for games.   He just didn't have the heart that I've come to appreciate so much.   Kyle Williams didn't do that.  Fred Jackson didn't do that.  

 

Great player, when he played.  And he played most of the time.   But you couldn't depend on him being on the field when you needed him. 

 

His contract problem in Buffalo wasn't completely on the Bills.   If I recall correctly, he began backing way from the deal he did sign within a year of signing it.   I didn't like that.   And that was a sign that the game was more about him than the team, which was the problem with his staying on the field.   It was always about Jason, first.  But I don't begrudge him his money or his wanting to leave.   That's up to him, and he made his decision.  

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm completely bought into the McDermott ethic.  Jason Peters took himself off the field altogether too much for my liking.   All through his career.    Off the field for plays and for games.   He just didn't have the heart that I've come to appreciate so much.   Kyle Williams didn't do that.  Fred Jackson didn't do that.  

 

Great player, when he played.  And he played most of the time.   But you couldn't depend on him being on the field when you needed him. 

 

His contract problem in Buffalo wasn't completely on the Bills.   If I recall correctly, he began backing way from the deal he did sign within a year of signing it.   I didn't like that.   And that was a sign that the game was more about him than the team, which was the problem with his staying on the field.   It was always about Jason, first.  But I don't begrudge him his money or his wanting to leave.   That's up to him, and he made his decision.  

 

Nope. He played half a season on the new right tackle contract, at which point they switched him to left tackle and he played a season and a half at left tacke and as one of the best left tackles in football before he asked for a new deal. If you want to talk about how this regime would have handled that I believe Beane would not have hesitated to re-do the deal. They have given more money to Eric Wood, Jordan Poyer and Stefon Diggs to name but 3 when they have had time left but outplayed their contract. 

 

As for taking time off the field, from the moment he became a starter he missed 4 games in 3 years. All due to injury. Yes he held out a whole camp. He was justified in doing so. 

[Homey D. Clown]

1.  Fred Jackson

2.  Antione Winfoeld

3.  London Fletcher

[Haslett_Stomp]

21 minutes ago, Homey D. Clown said:

1.  Fred Jackson

2.  Antione Winfoeld

3.  London Fletcher

 

^ this except substitute a healthy Sam Cowart for London Fletcher.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Haslett_Stomp

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm completely bought into the McDermott ethic.  Jason Peters took himself off the field altogether too much for my liking.   All through his career.    Off the field for plays and for games.   He just didn't have the heart that I've come to appreciate so much.   Kyle Williams didn't do that.  Fred Jackson didn't do that.  

 

Great player, when he played.  And he played most of the time.   But you couldn't depend on him being on the field when you needed him. 

 

His contract problem in Buffalo wasn't completely on the Bills.   If I recall correctly, he began backing way from the deal he did sign within a year of signing it.   I didn't like that.   And that was a sign that the game was more about him than the team, which was the problem with his staying on the field.   It was always about Jason, first.  But I don't begrudge him his money or his wanting to leave.   That's up to him, and he made his decision.  

 

 

Such an ignorant take.

 

As I said @eball there are still plenty of people here who try to put blame on Jason Peters and throw shade on his character despite being at worst the second best LT in football(Joe Thomas was around then) in his prime.

 

Clearly, the Bills organization was being run like a f*cking clown show but even now people like Shaw are still dug in on their awful takes of the day.

 

Kyle Williams was a fine Bill.......we enjoyed him in the near complete anonymity of the joke of an organization that Ralph had going post John Butler era.

 

But he was a one gap DT.........he came off the field plenty..........and besides, the average NFL fan thinks Kyle Williams is the 49ers return man who fumbled in the NFC Championship game.

 

So does Google.

 

 The Bills KW is otherwise in the hall of never-heard-of-him-or-vaguely-remember-him to fans of other teams.

 

Peters is a Hall of Famer and was a well liked and admired teammate in addition to having incredible longevity.

 

Just own the fact that the Bills made their own bed as a floundering organization in those days.   They weren't committed to winning, they made one stupid decision after another wrt personnel which then snowballed and caused them problems with their very best players like Peters and Aaron Schobel.    It was a clown show.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nope. He played half a season on the new right tackle contract, at which point they switched him to left tackle and he played a season and a half at left tacke and as one of the best left tackles in football before he asked for a new deal. If you want to talk about how this regime would have handled that I believe Beane would not have hesitated to re-do the deal. They have given more money to Eric Wood, Jordan Poyer and Stefon Diggs to name but 3 when they have had time left but outplayed their contract. 

 

As for taking time off the field, from the moment he became a starter he missed 4 games in 3 years. All due to injury. Yes he held out a whole camp. He was justified in doing so. 

There is no such thing, so far as I know, as a "right tackle contract" and a "left tackle contract."   He signed a contract to play for the Bills, and the fact that his position changed didn't give him any additional rights.   He was just like any other player who signed a contract and then got better.   If he'd believed in himself and how much better he was going to get, he wouldn't have signed the contract.  

 

Oh, and I'm not arguing about whether the Bills did the right thing.   I agree, Beane would never have let it get to the point where he demanded a trade.   

 

But I wasn't talking about any of that - you somehow assumed I was.  All I'm talking about is whether he is one of the three players I would want.   My answer to that was no, because I didn't like his character.  And I'm talking just about his time with the Bills.  In 17 years he started 16 games only five times (Kyle Williams was 8 for 13).   And what I thought was worse was how often he took himself out of the game.   Sometimes he acted like he broke his leg, then he'd be back the next series.   Sometimes in the middle of a big drive, he'd limp off for a play or two, then come back.  I hated it. 

 

As I said, I'm a total McDermott disciple, and I want guys whose heart is in it.   

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

There is no such thing, so far as I know, as a "right tackle contract" and a "left tackle contract."   He signed a contract to play for the Bills, and the fact that his position changed didn't give him any additional rights.   He was just like any other player who signed a contract and then got better.   If he'd believed in himself and how much better he was going to get, he wouldn't have signed the contract.  

 

Oh, and I'm not arguing about whether the Bills did the right thing.   I agree, Beane would never have let it get to the point where he demanded a trade.   

 

But I wasn't talking about any of that - you somehow assumed I was.  All I'm talking about is whether he is one of the three players I would want.   My answer to that was no, because I didn't like his character.  And I'm talking just about his time with the Bills.  In 17 years he started 16 games only five times (Kyle Williams was 8 for 13).   And what I thought was worse was how often he took himself out of the game.   Sometimes he acted like he broke his leg, then he'd be back the next series.   Sometimes in the middle of a big drive, he'd limp off for a play or two, then come back.  I hated it. 

 

As I said, I'm a total McDermott disciple, and I want guys whose heart is in it.   

 

Peters heart was in it. He just was in a sucky situation on a sucky team who didn't have a ***** clue what they were doing. When you are paid as a mid range right tackle and you prove yourself as an elite left tackle you get paid. That is consitent across the league. 

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Peters heart was in it. He just was in a sucky situation on a sucky team who didn't have a ***** clue what they were doing. When you are paid as a mid range right tackle and you prove yourself as an elite left tackle you get paid. That is consitent across the league. 

Just to end this, will you please confirm that I've now said for the third time that I'm not arguing about his contract or about his forcing the trade.  I'm talking about the fact that he was often injured and he often took plays off, and I don't like that.   That's all I've ever said, and you keep arguing about whether he deserved a new contract or not.  I agree, the Bills mismanaged it.  I said that.  

 

I also agree that he was one of the best left tackles I've seen in decades.  A sure-fire Hall of Famer.   I didn't like his attitude.  I didn't take Mario Williams, for the same reason.   And I took Fred over Lynch, for the same reason.   

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 My answer to that was no, because I didn't like his character. 

 

 

You are full of sh*t up to your eyeballs Shaw.

 

You don't know anything about Peters character with the Bills other than what Russ Brandon told you at the time........when Philly traded for him they got not one bad word about him from the agents of other players on the Bills.   All he did was work himself up from practice squad to All Pro as a Bill.    Josh Allen got his deal re-worked with 2 years left on it.   When you are a great player in his prime at a premium position........that's what happens.........if the organization has any sense.

 

Here are some excerpts about Peters "character" from an article done by The Athletic.

 

"Leading by example is Peters’ M.O., but that doesn’t mean he’s silent in the locker room. When he speaks, everyone listens. In addition to Peters’ defense of Foles against Washington in 2014, Roseman fondly remembers a brief but impactful speech following a 2011 loss that dropped the team to 4-8. The gist: “Now we will find out who are the men and who are the boys, who will fight and who will not.” The Eagles closed the season with four straight wins."

 

“We have a Hall of Fame player and a Hall of Fame person,” Roseman said via email.

 

"On the field, Peters’ willingness to work on technique after practice with young linemen and pass-rushers has become such second nature that it no longer registers as noteworthy. But every summer practice for the better part of the last decade has ended with Peters sticking around to help anyone from forgotten bottom-of-the-roster players like Malcolm Bunche and Michael Bamiro to Jordan Mailata, Halapoulivaati Vaitai and Lane Johnson, who have all been labeled along the way as Peters’ eventual replacement."

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Just to end this, will you please confirm that I've now said for the third time that I'm not arguing about his contract or about his forcing the trade.  I'm talking about the fact that he was often injured and he often took plays off, and I don't like that.   That's all I've ever said, and you keep arguing about whether he deserved a new contract or not.  I agree, the Bills mismanaged it.  I said that.  

 

I also agree that he was one of the best left tackles I've seen in decades.  A sure-fire Hall of Famer.   I didn't like his attitude.  I didn't take Mario Williams, for the same reason.   And I took Fred over Lynch, for the same reason.   

 

So what are you basing his character flaws on? Some random assertion that he took plays off that you haven't been able to substantiate?

 

On Mario, you have an arguable case. On Lynch and Dareus your case is made. But Sean McDermott and Brandon Beane would absolutely love Jason Peters. There was nothing un-processy about him. The Bills just tried to bad mouth him on his way out of the door to cover their own ass.

[frostbitmic]

Mario Williams - Lined up opposite Von Miller would be fun for us and a nightmare for QB's.

Kyle Williams - Loved his attitude and he'd be great with our two DE's.

Duke Williams - We have a lack of Williams' on the team and need more.

 

On second thought, forget Duke and add Jason Peters - A HOF offensive Tackle would be a solid addition to this team.

[Freddie's Dead]

3 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Mario Williams - Lined up opposite Von Miller would be fun for us and a nightmare for QB's.

Kyle Williams - Loved his attitude and he'd be great with our two DE's.

Duke Williams - We have a lack of Williams' on the team and need more.

 

On second thought, forget Duke and add Jason Peters - A HOF offensive Tackle would be a solid addition to this team.

 

Which Duke Williams, the CB or WR?  We had two A#1s!

[Rico]

What drought-era scrubs could be salvaged & be contributors on the current team?

 

Josh Reed? Leodis McKelvin? Marcus Price? Lauvale Sape? Leon Joe?

[frostbitmic]

28 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Which Duke Williams, the CB or WR?  We had two A#1s!

The WR of course, but i think he was on our drought ending team so he wouldn't count.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So what are you basing his character flaws on? Some random assertion that he took plays off that you haven't been able to substantiate?

 

On Mario, you have an arguable case. On Lynch and Dareus your case is made. But Sean McDermott and Brandon Beane would absolutely love Jason Peters. There was nothing un-processy about him. The Bills just tried to bad mouth him on his way out of the door to cover their own ass.

I'm basing it on the fact that I saw him, over and over, as a Bill and then as an Eagle, leave games for plays or for quarters.  He didn't play hurt.  He was predictable that way.  Great player, in the same way Mario was a great player. 

[Mikie2times]

19 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

I don't hate the Pat Williams responses (and I especially don't hate the Eric Moulds responses). But how exactly would "Pat in the 3-tech...allow Ed to do what he does best?" Ed Oliver's "best" is IN the 3-tech! He's been forced to line up at 0 or 1-tech fairly often in college and in the pros, unfortunately, based on necessity. But if you're trying to boost Ed Oliver's production, specifically, adding a NT makes more sense than adding another 3T. Right?

Ya, I screwed that up, but no need to be a dick Richard

[White Linen]

Mario Williams 

Incognito 

Gilmore 

[chongli]

3 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

The WR of course, but i think he was on our drought ending team so he wouldn't count.

 

Actually, neither Duke Willams was on our team in 2017 (the year our drought ended). The safety left in 2016 and the WR wasn't signed until 2019. Kyle Willams, OTOH, played for us in 2017. But I think you're ok with adding him, since the OP stated from 2000-2017. 

[Richard Noggin]

3 hours ago, KzooMike said:

Ya, I screwed that up, but no need to be a dick Richard

You're absolutely right. I wish I could turn it off more often. But it's a part of me.

[Freddie's Dead]

38 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Actually, neither Duke Willams was on our team in 2017 (the year our drought ended). The safety left in 2016 and the WR wasn't signed until 2019. Kyle Willams, OTOH, played for us in 2017. But I think you're ok with adding him, since the OP stated from 2000-2017. 

 

I stand corrected on Duke Williams the WR.  I feel shame.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Freddie's Dead

[No_Matter_What]

On 6/4/2022 at 1:46 AM, BattlinBill said:

Lynch

Peters

Williams

Honorable Mention: Moulds (sorry, couldn't do just three)

Which Williams?

[No_Matter_What]

Interesting thread. I am only a fan since 2016 so it forced me to read about some past Bills players I knew a little or nothing about.

 

Takeo Spikes for example holds a record of playing in 219 regular season games without a playoff appearence. Not the best record to hold I guess

 

Anyway, I took a time to count votes in this thread and this is what top 10 looks like:

 

1. Jason Peters - 26 votes

2. Fred Jackson - 21

3. Mario Williams - 20

4. Takeo Spikes - 16

5. Eric Moulds - 15

6. Marshawn Lynch - 13

7. Aaron Schobel - 12

8. Nate Clements - 10

9. Kyle Williams - 9

10. Antoine Winfield - 8

11. Ruben Brown - 8

 

There were couple of players whose eligibility was questioned. I guess it depends on exact question/definition. However, it is clear that Moulds and Brown would be slightly higher if more people found them eligible.

 

Others with 5 or more votes:

7 - Moorman, McGee

6 - Fletcher, Pat Williams

5 - Dareus, Gilmore

 

Sometimes it was not 100% clear how people are voting so there could be some minor deviations

[Patrick Duffy]

Without going through the entire thread and I'm sure this player has been mentioned by somebody already, but I'd say T. McGee would be one of those players along with the few obvious names being mentioned.

 

Good KR/PT that was considered fairly dangerous and also was a pretty solid CB. So when considering that he could make an impact in more than one position like he did, he would be one of the top players on the list for me

[Pete]

Eric Moulds

Kyle Williams

Jason Peters

[BADOLBILZ]

20 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm basing it on the fact that I saw him, over and over, as a Bill and then as an Eagle, leave games for plays or for quarters.  He didn't play hurt.  He was predictable that way.  Great player, in the same way Mario was a great player. 

 

It's not a fact.

 

You are just running out of fodder so you chose to make something up.

 

He had seasons early in his 30's where he played all 16 games and played 97% of the snaps.   Dion Dawkins is a young man(entering age 28 season) and despite being very durable himself he generally plays around 95% of the offensive snaps.  

 

LMK when Dion plays 88% of the team offensive snaps at LT when he's age 39.  

 

I'm all for being critical of players/management relative to their peers.........but dogging a guy for not being tough when he's still playing LT 17 years into his career is just daft.

 

The Bills did have a talented LT named Jonas Jennings who fits that description.......constantly leaving the field because he wouldn't play hurt.........but I'd hope you have enough sense to not conflate the two.   Peters succeeded Jennings at LT.   In fact he once basically shamed Jonas Jennings back into a game that Jennings had limped out of.    Peters was not soft by any means.  

 

Dude tore the same achilles TWICE in the 2012 offseason........back when that was a much bigger deal.........and instead of his career being over he came back and was first team All Pro again.  

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/eagles-lt-jason-peters-ruptures-his-achilles-again-09000d5d82917fca

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Shaw66]

Man, you guys are really worked up.   I just have opinion about the guy, and it's different from your opinion.  

[Success]

Schoebel

Moorman

Fred Jackson. Or, as Brady liked to call him, Frank Smith.

 

[Patrick Duffy]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Man, you guys are really worked up.   I just have opinion about the guy, and it's different from your opinion.  

I mean to be fair here, unless I may have misunderstood and correct me if I'm wrong or your meaning differed from your wording.... but it sounded like you were stating a few things as facts (a couple I believe you are incorrect about also) rather than opinion. 

 

Not my intention to break your balls or nothing because everyone is wrong about something, but just kinda seemed like when you referred to Peters in one of your post you said you were "basing on facts" and was pointed out to be not quite correct, then afterwards you kinda changed course as opinion. 

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

I mean to be fair here, unless I may have misunderstood and correct me if I'm wrong or your meaning differed from your wording.... but it sounded like you were stating a few things as facts (a couple I believe you are incorrect about also) rather than opinion. 

 

Not my intention to break your balls or nothing because everyone is wrong about something, but just kinda seemed like when you referred to Peters in one of your post you said you were "basing on facts" and was pointed out to be not quite correct, then afterwards you kinda changed course as opinion. 

 

 

 

 

It IS a fact that as a player he left multiple games with injuries and returned later.  I saw it.   It was, as I said, predictable.   He did it a lot.   I don't remember if he did it with the Bills, but I know he did it with the Eagles.  I saw it.  

That's the basis of my opinion that he is not one of the top 3 guys that I would add to the team. 

[oldmanfan]

Fletcher

Lynch

Reuben Brown

[Patrick Duffy]

24 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It IS a fact that as a player he left multiple games with injuries and returned later.  I saw it.   It was, as I said, predictable.   He did it a lot.   I don't remember if he did it with the Bills, but I know he did it with the Eagles.  I saw it.  

That's the basis of my opinion that he is not one of the top 3 guys that I would add to the team. 

The Bills is what I was referring to. You're previous post you stated it was fact while he was on Bills and that's where you're incorrect. And here you now say you don't remember while with the Bills.  So that's where it was questioned I believe.

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm basing it on the fact that I saw him, over and over, as a Bill and then as an Eagle, leave games for plays or for quarters.  He didn't play hurt.  He was predictable that way.  Great player, in the same way Mario was a great player.