STHs beware

[Mr Info]

There was an article today about long-time Packers STH wait-list people obtaining tix this year. 
This is a link to the article and the reason these STHs were relieved of their tix. I am a STH so it got my interest.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2022/05/20/packers-season-tickets-fans-50-year-wait/9853572002/

"The team made the determination to not renew a selection of tickets of a handful of ticketholders who held a significant number of tickets that were primarily being resold on a regular basis above face value," said Aaron Popkey, director of public affairs. "Packers season tickets are intended to be used by the ticketholder, including family and others, to attend the game. The tickets identified and not renewed were simply being resold for a profit. It was a pattern that existed for years." 

[1ManRaid]

I don't see a problem with this.

[aceman_16]

Interesting

[BillsPride12]

This is a good thing IMO

[ddaryl]

Love it.... That keeps people from picking up tickets for the sole purpose of scalping.

It was a pattern for years, so its not a few games a season. I don't think any legitimate fan buying ST's and only going to 4-6 games a year has anything to worry about

[Chandler#81]

12 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

I don't see a problem with this.

I certainly do and am glad to see a team take this step.

[Gugny]

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

[chongli]

4 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I certainly do and am glad to see a team take this step.

 

i think @1ManRaid was saying he didn't see a problem with the actions the Packers were taking to prevent this.

Edited May 20, 2022 by chongli

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

EXACTLY.

 

[Bobby Hooks]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

Right. And if the people selling the product want to limit that by refusing to sell to people selling for profit, they have that right as well. 

[Ralonzo]

Is forbidding resale a stipulation of the STH agreement? If not, Pack might be opening up to some class action.

[LeviF]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

 

Buy your own football team.

[DrDawkinstein]

Keep it local. Works for me.

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Keep it local. Works for me.

 

To clarify my previous comment ... ideally, YES.  I agree that it would be great if STHs were all actual fans of the team who intend to either attend games, or share tickets with other fans of the team.

 

But a team simply saying, "nah - we're not gonna let you renew," seems like a dangerous precedent to me.  Dangerous for the team.

 

It's reminiscent of the TB Lightening not letting anyone wearing the opposing team's jerseys into the game.  

[Nextmanup]

18 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I certainly do and am glad to see a team take this step.

[ddaryl]

11 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

Is forbidding resale a stipulation of the STH agreement? If not, Pack might be opening up to some class action.

They are well covered here

https://www.packers.com/tickets/season-ticket-holder-policies

 

 

Quote

SEASON TICKETS AS REVOCABLE LICENSES/RENEWAL OF SEASON TICKETS

Season tickets are revocable licenses that may be revoked and admission refused, at the sole discretion of the Packers. The Packers reserve the right to refuse admission or eject any person whose conduct the Packers deem to be disorderly or in noncompliance with the rules and regulations as promulgated by the Packers from time to time.

Season tickets are offered on a one-year basis only. The purchase of season tickets does not entitle a season ticket holder to purchase season tickets in any subsequent year. The opportunity to renew season tickets is a privilege granted by the Packers, which may be withdrawn at the discretion of the Packers.

 

[Chandler#81]

Just now, Nextmanup said:

You’re entitled to your opinion. You’re WRONG, but you’re entitled to be..🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[Mr Info]

After posting this about the Packers, I investigated the Bills STH Terms & Conditions. 
https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/upload/v1579706489/bills/m4yj8aee0vw6u6xl34lx.pdf

Below is the only item I found that is relevant. The last sentence, imo, permits re-sale. But you know, like the Pack, the Bills are aware who are consistently reselling their season tix…because the Bills are not getting that $.

“a) STM shall not sell, assign, sublease, pledge, or otherwise transfer or encumber the Agreement or any of the STM’s rights and obligations under the Agreement, without the prior written consent of the Bills. Any attempted sale, assignment, sublease, pledge, transfer or encumbrance in contravention of the foregoing shall be null and void and of no effect. This shall not be construed to restrain STM’s ability to resell individual tickets.”

Edited May 20, 2022 by Mr Info

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

To clarify my previous comment ... ideally, YES.  I agree that it would be great if STHs were all actual fans of the team who intend to either attend games, or share tickets with other fans of the team.

 

But a team simply saying, "nah - we're not gonna let you renew," seems like a dangerous precedent to me.  Dangerous for the team.

 

It's reminiscent of the TB Lightening not letting anyone wearing the opposing team's jerseys into the game.  

 

Well, you can save the slippery slope argument for another day. I'm not that worried about it. Teams already have the ability to not let people renew for whatever reason they deem fit. That is their right. So there really isnt a precedent being set here. Just exercising an option that has always existed.

 

Their point right now is, we have local fans on a waiting list for decades who cant get tickets, and these STHs are putting every single game up for resale, so time to make a call. It's the team's right to do so, and I cant disagree with the logic behind it.

4 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

They are well covered here

https://www.packers.com/tickets/season-ticket-holder-policies

 

 

 

 

Exactly. Teams can make these decisions for any reasons they wish. It's their game, it's their tickets. It's basically an "at will" sales policy.

[Gugny]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Well, you can save the slippery slope argument for another day. I'm not that worried about it. Teams already have the ability to not let people renew for whatever reason they deem fit. That is their right. So there really isnt a precedent being set here. Just exercising an option that has always existed.

 

Their point right now is, we have local fans on a waiting list for decades who cant get tickets, and these STHs are putting every single game up for resale, so time to make a call. It's the team's right to do so, and I cant disagree with the logic behind it.

 

Yeah, like I said.  I'd love for Highmark to be chock full of Bills fans and I'm sure that's every team's wish.

 

I just have an issue with a retailer dictating how you use what you've bought from them.  

 

But I get it.  It's their choice/right.  And it's also something - as a consumer - I know about going into it.

[DasNootz]

29 minutes ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

The libertarian in me agrees - however the alternative is that the seller can put any limitations they want into contracts.  Would you like it if the Bills said, use of tickets cannot be assigned without the seller's  written permission?  

Edited May 20, 2022 by DasNootz

[1ManRaid]

33 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I certainly do and am glad to see a team take this step.

 

29 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

i think @1ManRaid was saying he didn't see a problem with the actions the Packers were taking to prevent this.

 

Yeah I realized afterwards that my phrasing might confuse someone, but it was too late.

[unbillievable]

Use chip card for season ticket holders.

Can't sell the ticket to anyone, unless it's someone they trust to give it back ie: friends and family.

 

If the holder doesn't want to use it, they can get a 1game refund that the team can re-sell that week.

 

Easy.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

Use chip card for season ticket holders.

Can't sell the ticket to anyone, unless it's someone they trust to give it back ie: friends and family.

 

If the holder doesn't want to use it, they can get a 1game refund that the team can re-sell that week.

 

Easy.

 

I think that's taking it to the opposite extreme.

 

The Packers arent saying folks cant resell at all. They are just targeting STHs who sell all of the games and are essentially acting as ticket brokerage middle-men.

 

STHs should always have the ability to sell/transfer tickers for individual games without having to turn their tickets into the team.

[eball]

52 minutes ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

 

Not if the seller of the product places restrictions upon purchase.  The devil is in the details; I could see the Packers facing some lawsuits if there is nothing in the prior STH purchase agreement about limiting resale of tickets.

 

That said, I would fully support a STH agreement in Buffalo that limits the resale of tickets at a certain level.  You just have to tell people what the limits are and then they make their own decisions.

 

[MJS]

Seems like a slam dunk decision by the team. They have a bunch of fans on a wait list who actually want to go to the games. They have the right to revoke those tickets, and they exercised that right. Good for them.

[ddaryl]

another thing to remember here is GB has a long line of people wanting to score a Season ticket. 

For someone to buy Season Tickets for the sole purpose of making profit is essentially robbing that/those tickets from someone waiting of the list.

[LabattBlue]

No offense to Bills fans, but with a waiting list of 140,000 fans for Packers ST, is there any question as to who has the most loyal fanbase?

[LeviF]

52 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Well, you can save the slippery slope argument for another day. I'm not that worried about it. Teams already have the ability to not let people renew for whatever reason they deem fit. That is their right. So there really isnt a precedent being set here. Just exercising an option that has always existed.

 

 

Yeah, they already can and do revoke seats for selling to some ####### who ends up pouring a beer over someone's head - something impossible to predict.

1 minute ago, BTB said:

No offense to Bills fans, but with a waiting list of 140,000 fans for Packers ST, is there any question as to who has the most loyal fanbase?

 

Come back and talk when we're on year 30 of having a first ballot HOFer at QB.

[ddaryl]

7 minutes ago, BTB said:

No offense to Bills fans, but with a waiting list of 140,000 fans for Packers ST, is there any question as to who has the most loyal fanbase?

Not at all

 

IT'S THE BILLS

[Watkins90]

54 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I think that's taking it to the opposite extreme.

 

The Packers arent saying folks cant resell at all. They are just targeting STHs who sell all of the games and are essentially acting as ticket brokerage middle-men.

 

STHs should always have the ability to sell/transfer tickers for individual games without having to turn their tickets into the team.

It sounds to me that those people also didn't lose all their tickets. The Packers just took away some of their tickets. So, if someone was buying eight season tickets and reselling 6 of those 8 seats for profit, while still attending the games each week, the Packers just took away the 6 seats they were just reselling. 

[unbillievable]

How long did those scalpers have to wait to get season tickets?

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Watkins90 said:

It sounds to me that those people also didn't lose all their tickets. The Packers just took away some of their tickets. So, if someone was buying eight season tickets and reselling 6 of those 8 seats for profit, while still attending the games each week, the Packers just took away the 6 seats they were just reselling. 

 

Hmm, I think I like that less.

 

I'd have to get access to a lot more information, but off the top of my head, playing Message Board COO...

 

I think I'd draw a line at 4 or 5 games. If the STHs show up for half the games, I dont care what they do with the other half. Things come up, whatever. They're at least trying to show up for some.

 

If they resell more than half the games, I think I have our Ticket team reach out to them and see what's up. Maybe we get them into a different ticket package and open up their seats to someone on the waiting list.

 

If the STH doesnt respond to the Ticket team, and they are selling 6-All games for 2 seasons in a row, then I'm revoking the tickets.

 

I'm making this up on the fly tho, but you catch my drift.

[Watkins90]

13 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Hmm, I think I like that less.

 

I'd have to get access to a lot more information, but off the top of my head, playing Message Board COO...

 

I think I'd draw a line at 4 or 5 games. If the STHs show up for half the games, I dont care what they do with the other half. Things come up, whatever. They're at least trying to show up for some.

 

If they resell more than half the games, I think I have our Ticket team reach out to them and see what's up. Maybe we get them into a different ticket package and open up their seats to someone on the waiting list.

 

If the STH doesnt respond to the Ticket team, and they are selling 6-All games for 2 seasons in a row, then I'm revoking the tickets.

 

I'm making this up on the fly tho, but you catch my drift.

That last part is what I said though. They have 8 total seats for each game. 6 of them they just automatically resell while still using the last two for themselves. The team takes away the 6 seats they are just reselling every game. They get to keep the two they are actually using. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I'm assuming this would target the season ticket holder who has double digit tickets and they instantly get placed on the market not all together

 

Not the guy who has 4 together but uses 2 every game but re sells his other 2 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

 

Isn't there something on the back in the real fine print that says something about not being allowed to sell over face value?

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, Watkins90 said:

That last part is what I said though. They have 8 total seats for each game. 6 of them they just automatically resell while still using the last two for themselves. The team takes away the 6 seats they are just reselling every game. They get to keep the two they are actually using. 

 

Right. What I'm saying is, if they are selling 6 and can't provide my ticket reps with good reason, or it is a pattern over a number of years, I'm taking away ALL of the tickets. I'm reclaiming those seats and opening them up to the waiting list.

 

The folks who lost their seats can buy tickets twice a year when they want to.

[Mr Info]

3 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Isn't there something on the back in the real fine print that says something about not being allowed to sell over face value?

With e-tix not certain there is fine print about that. In my post on p.1, I quoted the T&C for Season Ticket Members and it appears tix can be re-sold. The restrictions for Packers STHs does not apply to Bills STHs. That is my opinion.

a) STM shall not sell, assign, sublease, pledge, or otherwise transfer or encumber the Agreement or any of the STM’s rights and obligations under the Agreement, without the prior written consent of the Bills. Any attempted sale, assignment, sublease, pledge, transfer or encumbrance in contravention of the foregoing shall be null and void and of no effect. This shall not be construed to restrain STM’s ability to resell individual tickets.”

[Buffalo Boy]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

If I buy a product, then I should be able to use that product however I want to ... including re-selling it for a profit.

Silly Boy

You’re the little guy. You only exist to make the rich richer…… you’re supposed to be the price gouge-ee, NOT the gouger.

😉

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Silly Boy

You’re the little guy. You only exist to make the rich richer…… you’re supposed to be the price gouge-ee, NOT the gouger.

😉

 

I can barely afford single game tickets now!!