So has the defensive line "rotation" thing been exposed as nonsense?

[Jim]

Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jim

[PetermansRedemption]

Clearly, the “rotation” thing is More-so garbage speak to mask a line devoid of any true talent. When you have a truly talented player you don’t only let him play half the snaps to keep him fresh. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, Jim said:

Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assedly defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actually star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

Our defensive line was much much better than what we did against mahomes last year and their offensive line was significantly better this year also.  It hurts because we lost but I wouldn’t say the defensive line rotation wasn’t working…bengals held up better in coverage while mahomes was doing his running around in circles waiting for hill or Kelce to get open routine lol we needed tre white

[NewEra]

Our DL played very well the majority of the season. They did run out of gas vs a very good OL to end the season.

 

 

[Jim]

4 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Our defensive line was much much better than what we did against mahomes last year and their offensive line was significantly better this year also.  It hurts because we lost but I wouldn’t say the defensive line rotation wasn’t working…bengals held up better in coverage while mahomes was doing his running around in circles waiting for hill or Kelce to get open routine lol we needed tre white

 

I respect your opinion Generic, but our defensive line ultimately didn't get anywhere close to getting the job done. I don't recall once really seeing Mahomes look hurried or truly pressured. I mean yes, they made him move around, but I never once really expected they were ever gonna catch him. You knew you'd get the classic grasp at his feet that he'd shrug off and run away from. Whereas this week, you saw a hurried Mahomes. And I think that impacted his throws on other plays. He was worried the Bengals were getting to him. I don't think there was any such fear with Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison.

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Our DL played very well the majority of the season. They did run out of gas vs a very good OL to end the season.

 

But the rotation is supposed to keep them fresh. If our d-line can't play a half game or a quarter game or however long these guys get snaps, then that is an indictment of the rotation theory, is it not?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jim

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Fundamentally I have no problem with the concept—but I do want impact guys in depth, so that each rotation like a hockey shift can still get home at any time. There’s no question that Dlinemen tire quicker than their counterparts, so I get why we do it. Just do it effectively! 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, Jim said:

 

I respect your opinion Generic, but our defensive line ultimately didn't get anywhere close to getting the job done. I don't recall once really seeing Mahomes look hurried or truly pressured. I mean yes, they made him move around, but I never once really expected they were ever gonna catch him. You knew you'd get the classic grasp at his feet that he'd shrug off and run away from. Whereas this week, you saw a hurried Mahomes. And I think that impacted his throws on other plays. He was worried the Bengals were getting to him. I don't think there was any such fear with Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison.

He was under a ton of pressure against us…we moved him off the spot just about every play.  Didn’t spy him well though…I think it’s more of a linebacker issue.  Bengals got beat by qb scrambles during the first half too.  Mahomes made tons of completely self inflicted errors against the bengals too…one of those against us and we win

Edited January 31, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Boatdrinks]

Goes back many years , really to the 90’s Cowboys era. Those Cowboys teams were stacked on the DL, so their line kept fresh was overwhelming. Gotta have the quality for it to matter. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

He’s gonna see a bunch of 8 man coverage next season with a qb spy id guess 😀 dude looked trent edwards-level lost that second half.

[Jim]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He was under a ton of pressure against us…we moved him off the spot just about every play.  Didn’t spy him well though…I think it’s more of a linebacker issue.  Bengals got beat by qb scrambles during the first half too 

 

I know its an eye of the beholder type thing, but I just never really felt he was hurried by our guys. Yes they got after him, but I ask you guys/gals, was anybody ever surprised that they couldn't get to him? Mario Addison is the king of letting guys slip through his grip and so many times we had guys diving at his feet, which yes, made Mahomes move. But that's what he does. Pressuring Mahomes (and Josh) is much different than pressuring Brady or Burrow or the conventional QB.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, Jim said:

 

I know its an eye of the beholder type thing, but I just never really felt he was hurried by our guys. Yes they got after him, but I ask you guys/gals, was anybody ever surprised that they couldn't get to him? Mario Addison is the king of letting guys slip through his grip and so many times we had guys diving at his feet, which yes, made Mahomes move. But that's what he does. Pressuring Mahomes (and Josh) is much different than pressuring Brady or Burrow or the conventional QB.

He was hurried all game against us..we were inches from a sack on just about every play…bengals must’ve done something clever taking away his rushing lanes because he was dancing around for 10-12 seconds today and couldn’t do anything with it.  Something they were doing had him absolutely baffled.

[Jim]

2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Goes back many years , really to the 90’s Cowboys era. Those Cowboys teams were stacked on the DL, so their line kept fresh was overwhelming. Gotta have the quality for it to matter. 

 

Yeah. I think thats the truth. And kinda ends the thread in a way. We don't have the playmakers. I like Jerry and Mario seems like a nice guy and had a better season this year than last, but neither is getting younger and neither is anything close to a game wrecker. The only problem is do we go into next season with Groot, AJ and Boogie? That's pretty scary. I think this is one position where Beane should try to go big as possible. We need a real playmaker. And yes, I knew easier said than done. But I just dont think that playmaker is coming at 25 in the first round, just as I didnt think it was coming at number 30 last year.

[BubbaT]

Need a better quality, twitchier, bendier D end. At least one. The guys they have are good solid players and in his prime Hughes and likely Addison too (though I am not as familiar with him from his Panthers days) fit the bill. They don't grow on trees. Hendrickson was a great pickup by the Bengals in free agency and the Rams added Miller. Those kinds of investments paid dividends. 

 

Did the Bengals not rush just 3 a lot and play 8 in coverage in the 2nd half? Mahomes looked more confused than pressured. His guys were not really open and the Chiefs, much like the Bills in the Super Bowl against the Giants, did not stay patient with a running game that was gashing the Bengals for 6-7 yards pretty much every time. 
Added: 

per Chris Trapasso:   https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/what-in-the-world-happened-to-patrick-mahomes-after-halftime-examining-chiefs-qbs-play-in-afc-title-game/

Edited January 31, 2022 by BubbaT

[Jim]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He was hurried all game against us..we were inches from a sack on just about every play…bengals must’ve done something clever taking away his rushing lanes because he was dancing around for 10-12 seconds today and couldn’t do anything with it.  Something they were doing had him absolutely baffled.

 

I agree that it seemed we got close. And maybe I'm just being negative, but not once during the game did I think our guys were actually gonna get there. Maybe you did, and we really were that close. But what Cincy did just hemmed him in. And yeah. It's probably due to our linebackers as well. Which is a whole other thing.

[Jim]

1 minute ago, BubbaT said:

Need a better quality, twitchier, bendier D end. At least one. The guys they have are solid players and in his prime Hughes and likely Addison too (though I am not as familiar with him from his Panthers days) fit the bill. They don't grow on trees. Hendrickson was a great pickup by the Bengals in free agency and the Rams added Miller. Those kinds of investments paid dividends. 

 

Yep. That's it. I liked the Obada pickup and it was worthy try to find an undiscovered gem. But it didn't work. And thus far, Groot and Boogie haven't worked. AJ is...whatever. If Beane and the Bills are serious about making a run they gotta find somebody. The Khalil Mack thing is as old as time itself, but it's true. Beane took the risk and got Diggs. Take another risk and grab another game changer.

[Malazan]

This place is unbearable. 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

 

I respect your opinion Generic, but our defensive line ultimately didn't get anywhere close to getting the job done. I don't recall once really seeing Mahomes look hurried or truly pressured. I mean yes, they made him move around, but I never once really expected they were ever gonna catch him. You knew you'd get the classic grasp at his feet that he'd shrug off and run away from. Whereas this week, you saw a hurried Mahomes. And I think that impacted his throws on other plays. He was worried the Bengals were getting to him. I don't think there was any such fear with Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison.

 

But the rotation is supposed to keep them fresh. If our d-line can't play a half game or a quarter game or however long these guys get snaps, then that is an indictment of the rotation theory, is it not?

They can. They did just fine 80%+ of the season.  

[Jim]

Just now, NewEra said:

They can. They did just fine 80%+ of the season.  

 

You yourself said they ran out of gas. If you're playing only a spot role, how are you out of gas in the 4th quarter? Isn't that what the whole rotation thing was supposed to remedy? To me, as an earlier poster stated, its more about the fact that we have a bunch of half assed talent on the d-line outside of Oliver (and perhaps Harry, who's been coming on strong).

[Protocal69]

The one thing I noticed in the chiefs playoff game was on Josh Allen should have been game winning pass Chiefs star DT Chris Jones was on the bench. I wonder if he was gassed as well at that point in the game.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Protocal69

[NewEra]

54 minutes ago, Jim said:

 

You yourself said they ran out of gas. If you're playing only a spot role, how are you out of gas in the 4th quarter? Isn't that what the whole rotation thing was supposed to remedy? To me, as an earlier poster stated, its more about the fact that we have a bunch of half assed talent on the d-line outside of Oliver (and perhaps Harry, who's been coming on strong).

Yes, they ran out of gas in the AFCCG….our DL wasn’t a problem for the majority of the season.  They played very well 

[stinky finger]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Our DL played very well the majority of the season. They did run out of gas vs a very good OL to end the season.

 

 

Run out of gas?

 

Isn’t the very premise of the rotation supposed to prevent just such a thing?

[JGMcD2]

5 hours ago, Jim said:

Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

Yeah, this makes total sense! 
 

One particular instance of something not working as designed proves it is bogus. 
 

This type of thought provoking content is the stuff that makes this place special! 

[TBBills]

Luck was on mahomes side the first game and yesterday those times he slipped away from the Bills he wasn't able to do against the Bengals. 

 

 

This all came down to luck.

22 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Yeah, this makes total sense! 
 

One particular instance of something not working as designed proves it is bogus. 
 

This type of thought provoking content is the stuff that makes this place special! 

Aka Hot takes

[Buddo]

2 hours ago, inaugural balls said:

Run out of gas?

 

Isn’t the very premise of the rotation supposed to prevent just such a thing?

It is. 
 

However, it probably wasn’t expecting to be in such a high quality offensive shootout.

 

That was no ordinary game.

 

The rotation of the D Line, will prevent them being gassed, in a majority of instances, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

I’m not advocating for or against it, just pointing out that it does work mostly.

 

I’m sure McD would want better talent to work with, even with a rotation, but it is what it is.

 

[JGMcD2]

4 minutes ago, TBBills said:

Luck was on mahomes side the first game and yesterday those times he slipped away from the Bills he wasn't able to do against the Bengals. 

 

 

This all came down to luck.

Aka Hot takes

I mean look… there very well be some validity to the fact that a D-LINE rotation doesn’t work or isn’t as effective as another personnel set up.

 

It’s just that picking out one particular instance and championing it as proof is a horrible way to approach things. 
 

The Bills sports medicine staff and analysts are pretty good at injury prevention and honestly pretty advanced with sleep and nutrition. I’m sure these types of decisions aren’t haphazardly thrown together like the OP. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

6 hours ago, Jim said:

Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

No dick Leslie Frazier, has been exposed he never changes his playbook and teams know as long as he is there they have a chance to win against the Bills because he never changes his playbook.

[wjag]

I know a lot of folks want to highlight the DLINE, but if you replay the final set of downs in that game, Matt Milano was the victim.  He couldn't keep up with Kelce. 

 

Now having said that, Cincy did a phenomenal job of contain.  And they clearly watched the Bills game and learned from it.  They were at times rushing just three DLINE and dropping everyone else in coverage at key downs in the game.

[george c]

I believe in rotation. When a player is gassed, that player left out costs the team the game.

 

Our D line is young, very young. 
Wait till those boys grow a little….

[Matt_In_NH]

No two teams are built the same, nor do coaches/GM's address their roster the same.   Also, defensive philosophies are different, that is all ok.  And there is more than one way win.  I agree they dont have a game wreaker but those guys are hard to come by.   The "rotation" is not the Bills problem.  Rosseau and Basham were not stunted because of it. 

 

The Bills with their roster this year could easily have been one of the two left still.   The problem was coaching/playcalls with 13 seconds and not the rotation.  But they DL was tired, that was obvious.  

[ProcessTruster]

55 minutes ago, wjag said:

I know a lot of folks want to highlight the DLINE, but if you replay the final set of downs in that game, Matt Milano was the victim.  He couldn't keep up with Kelce. 

 

Now having said that, Cincy did a phenomenal job of contain.  And they clearly watched the Bills game and learned from it.  They were at times rushing just three DLINE and dropping everyone else in coverage at key downs in the game.

agree, we don't have a 3 man D Line that I can remember seeing... maybe I'm wrong.   could have used this during the  13 seconds

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I question it as well.  One of the benefit of playing all the snaps is learning your opposing lineman, tendencies, set up moves, etc. 

[GunnerBill]

The problem isn't the rotation. It is the talent. Ed Oliver apart the guys just are not that good. 

 

Two has beens on the edge. Groot who had a nice rookie year but is still developing. Boogie also a rookie and AJE who is running out of chances. 

 

Star who was a non-factor post covid, Harrison who is a nice story but a JAG and Vernon Butler who is a "never was". 

 

I think they should leave Ed on the field more. But the rest of them it doesn't matter how much they rotate. The players themselves are not good enough. They have to hope Groot takes a step and Boogie takes an almighty leap. 

[stinky finger]

2 hours ago, Buddo said:

It is. 
 

However, it probably wasn’t expecting to be in such a high quality offensive shootout.

 

That was no ordinary game.

 

The rotation of the D Line, will prevent them being gassed, in a majority of instances, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

I’m not advocating for or against it, just pointing out that it does work mostly.

 

I’m sure McD would want better talent to work with, even with a rotation, but it is what it is.

 

If this is indeed true, and it may be, then the rotational system is a bigger bust than originally thought. 
 

 

[Niagara Dude]

8 hours ago, Jim said:

Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

Higher quality and not quantity,  rotation means nothing because we had no one able to get home on consistent basis.  Getting sacks has been the biggest problem with this team and soft defence 

[billsbackto81]

I like the concept but you have to have a couple thoroughbreds on the line instead of some glue factory nags to make it work.

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

It’s sort of like in basketball where who gives a damn if you have 10 decent players to have depth. You need the impacts studs or else it doesn’t matter. Players 5-10 don’t matter as much if the top 4 aren’t giving you anything that players 5-10 can’t. Beane needs to deal out first rounder to some team way over the cap for a blue chipper languishing on a crappy team. Not sure who that is but our window is now. Don’t waste Josh. Frazier’s bend but don’t break D makes no sense anyways. Shouldn’t we be agressive on D to get josh the ball instead of giving teams long drives and keeping it from josh? So what if we give up a score here and there, get it back to Josh. 
 

[ProcessTruster]

53 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The problem isn't the rotation. It is the talent. Ed Oliver apart the guys just are not that good. 

 

Two has beens on the edge. Groot who had a nice rookie year but is still developing. Boogie also a rookie and AJE who is running out of chances. 

 

Star who was a non-factor post covid, Harrison who is a nice story but a JAG and Vernon Butler who is a "never was". 

 

I think they should leave Ed on the field more. But the rest of them it doesn't matter how much they rotate. The players themselves are not good enough. They have to hope Groot takes a step and Boogie takes an almighty leap. 

My assumption is that Groot and Boogie now are through the "rookie wall", see how long the season really is, will work on getting better and bigger for next season in an real NFL off-season conditioning program and make a bigger impact come July, August and beyond.   Horrible Harry , same thing, instead of re habbing a major knee injury in the offseason and then playing all season with another injury, he can recover (unless he needs another surgery . ). and have a real off season of conditioning and come back fully healthy and stacked.  Plus Hughes/Addison could not play full time anyway.

 

Thank goodness McD had a rotational scheme to get over all these individual players issues..  If AJE, Groot, Boogs, and Harry step it up a level this year, we may see them taking more snaps than they did in the past.  McD is learning I believe 

[papazoid]

LACK OF TALENT is the problem on D-line

 

bills have 10 mediocre players....not 1 is really good.

[costrovs]

37 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The problem isn't the rotation. It is the talent. Ed Oliver apart the guys just are not that good. 

 

Two has beens on the edge. Groot who had a nice rookie year but is still developing. Boogie also a rookie and AJE who is running out of chances. 

 

Star who was a non-factor post covid, Harrison who is a nice story but a JAG and Vernon Butler who is a "never was". 

 

I think they should leave Ed on the field more. But the rest of them it doesn't matter how much they rotate. The players themselves are not good enough. They have to hope Groot takes a step and Boogie takes an almighty leap. 

 

This. 100%.

Someone once said in regards to QB's and RB's, If you have 2, then you don't have 1. (This applies to us at RB also)

Well, we have 8 D-Linemen. 

 

Edmunds played 100% of the snaps for 11 games this year including the playoffs. His least being week 2 @ Miami at 61%

Rousseau had 11 games this year with less than 50% of the snaps, with his highest being week 2 @ Miami at 66%

You want him to be a sack machine and learn the game better? well give him 75%+ snaps and stop rotating everyone around 50%.

 

Rotating the DL keeps them fresh for sure, but it'll also limit there growth.

The more playing time they give Rousseau, Boogy, Oliver, AJ, and whoever else they decide to draft this year, the better they'll be.

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

56 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The problem isn't the rotation. It is the talent. Ed Oliver apart the guys just are not that good. 

 

Two has beens on the edge. Groot who had a nice rookie year but is still developing. Boogie also a rookie and AJE who is running out of chances. 

 

Star who was a non-factor post covid, Harrison who is a nice story but a JAG and Vernon Butler who is a "never was". 

 

I think they should leave Ed on the field more. But the rest of them it doesn't matter how much they rotate. The players themselves are not good enough. They have to hope Groot takes a step and Boogie takes an almighty leap. 

It seemed that starting in the last 4 or 5 game and playoffs the snap counts tended to look less liked a full rotation and more like "get your aces in their places". Oliver, Phillips and Groot's snaps increased a bit while Star slide down the snap count list. Hughes was up and down.

 

Addison is one guy I think benefited by rotating. I believe he had 7 sacks and played under 50% of the snaps by the end of the year. Boogie, when active seemed to both show flashes and be exploited. Life of a rookie I suppose.

 

AJE, outside of a couple games I largely forgot was even active. The only thing to hope for with him is that Oliver took some time to improve, so it may just happen for AJ as well. One can hope.

 

I do know that I'm tired of using day 1 and 2 picks on high upside guys that will be good in 3 years and inactive their rookie season on game day. We need players that can play now and it a reasonably high level.