Beasley flipping out at McDermott (at :41 of the 3rd quarter lower left screen on sideline)

[NewEra]

17 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

More evidence?? We made his Twitter. 

 

So @BADOLBILZis actually Carl Mauck???  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/11/2022 at 8:17 AM, Toyo321 said:

If you did a line card of what each receiver brings to the table right now.  It would be heavily tilted in McKenzie's favor.

 

Speed                    >  McKenzie

Separation             >  McKenzie

Big play potential  >  McKenzie

Health?                  >  McKenzie

Clutch catches   = > McKenzie

Sweep Plays          > McKenzie

No offense to Cole, but right now, everything else being equal, McKenzie would be the better choice to roll with in the playoffs...

 

This is up for debate, but there are very few advantages of starting Cole over McKenzie against NE Saturday night.

 

 

Damn straight this is up for debate.

 

McKenzie has more speed.

 

Whether that leads to more separation depends upon whether it's man or zone coverage.  Man: McKenzie.  Zone: Beasley has a PhD in dissecting zone.  He is the zone Master.

 

McKenzie had a fantastic game against NE with many clutch catches, but has also alligator armed some.

Beasley has a 3 year history of clutch catches.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:57 AM, Coach Tuesday said:

According to Football Outsiders, Beasley declined from 2020-2021 more than any other WR in the league.

 

“Biggest Decline: Cole Beasley, BUF
From humble slot receiver to … whatever he is now. Beasley caught exactly 82 balls in both 2020 and 2021, but his yardage fell from 967 to 693, his average gain from 11.8 to 8.5, his touchdowns from four to one, and his DYAR from 267 (12th) to -47 (86th).”

(Don’t bother the Truthers with facts, though…)

 

In order to tell if that's on Beasley, or on the routes he's being asked to run/depth of target, you (and Football outsiders) would need to take the rudimentary step of looking at Beasley's YBC and YAC.  If one does this, one observes that while his YAC has fallen by 0.6 yds/reception, that would only account for a 49 yd decrease in yardage.

 

Most of Beasley's yardage drop is accounted for by his YBC, which has plummeted from 7.5 to 4.7.  This would tend to indicate that the fall in yardage is due to the routes he's being asked to run/being targeted on and not necessarily a decline in his level of play

 

Don't bother yourself with facts when referencing "Truthers" though.

[DJB]

Doubt Beasley is back next year. 

 

Too much of a distraction and we can use MacKenzie instead 

[dave mcbride]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In order to tell if that's on Beasley, or on the routes he's being asked to run/depth of target, you (and Football outsiders) would need to take the rudimentary step of looking at Beasley's YBC and YAC.  If one does this, one observes that while his YAC has fallen by 0.6 yds/reception, that would only account for a 49 yd decrease in yardage.

 

Most of Beasley's yardage drop is accounted for by his YBC, which has plummeted from 7.5 to 4.7.  This would tend to indicate that the fall in yardage is due to the routes he's being asked to run/being targeted on and not necessarily a decline in his level of play

 

Don't bother yourself with facts when referencing "Truthers" though.

He's not running those deeper crossers (15-20 yards) he got open on frequently last year, though. He made a living doing that last year. This year he just looks a lot slower and less explosive.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

McDermott and the Coach Staff deserve Beasley yelling at them.

 

Its what you get for not cutting that guys snaps down and making an every game role for McKenzie.

 

The Bills are choosing to keep the older, slower, declining player on the field and they limit themselves on potential play calls. Beasley ain’t running end arounds and jet sweeps for you. 

[gobillsinytown]

Personally I tend not to read too much into these things because all of these guys are very competitive and all receivers think they are open on every play.

 

When I had season tickets during the Superbowl runs it was pretty common to see players arguing with their position coaches or yelling at each other, so with the exception of the more emotionally unstable players like AB this kind of stuff is pretty common. 

 

Beasley seems to be a guy that marches to the beat of his own drummer, likely because he made it to the NFL as an undrafted free agent and that's even harder to do than through the draft. 

 

I don't agree with the guy's politics or his stance on public health issues, but this just seems to be frustration at how the season has gone.  Also age tends to creep up on receivers pretty quickly.  The drop off can be pretty dramatic from one year to the next.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

46 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He's not running those deeper crossers (15-20 yards) he got open on frequently last year, though. He made a living doing that last year. This year he just looks a lot slower and less explosive.  

 

He's not getting thrown to on those deeper crossers. 

 

What I haven't been able to tease out (with the demise of decent Gamepass) is whether that's because those routes have been pulled from the gameplan, whether he's running them and not getting open, or whether Josh isn't getting time to find him on those routes?  Have you been able to watch enough to chart routes?

 

I agree that when I saw McKenzie playing in the 2nd Pats game the speed was a bit eyeball popping to me like "whoah, where has that been?"

[gordong]

Can't believe this thread is still a thing... 

[Back2Buff]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:32 AM, Evian said:

 

McKenzie is like a backup QB. Everyone loves him, but he is not a consistently good player. Beasley is just a better player. Stats don't lie and Beasley has done it on the big stage. He was our top WR in the AFC title game last year. 

 

 

 

How can someone be a consistently good player if he isn't getting consistent snaps?

[jlgarsh]

On 1/11/2022 at 12:02 PM, Jauronimo said:

Its plain to the eye that hes moving a step slower, far less elusive, not getting nearly the same degree of separation, and dropping catchable balls.  Last year he was playing out of his mind so maybe its slightly unfair to compare his current performance to the absolute best he has ever played but thats the bar.  

 

This is obvious to everyone but the few in this thread who think Beas is some kind of folk hero and will now defend him to the point of absurdity.  The offense moves the ball more efficiently when McKenzie stays on the field.  

The offense withBates at LG, Motor at RB, and McKenzie in the slot has been the best it's looked all year. Hopefully they don't mess with a good thing.

Edited January 12, 2022 by jlgarsh
Typo

[jlgarsh]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

So @BADOLBILZis actually Carl Mauck???  

Fantastic OL coach

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

He he quit yet?

 

 

 

[HamptonBillsfan]

16 hours ago, 716to540 said:

Okay. So I have this video of the Terminator shooting JFK in the Mississippi Delta .... 

Same ideology 

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

The offense withBates at LG, Motor at RB, and McKenzie in the slot has been the best it's looked all year. Hopefully they don't mess with a good thing.

I agree but I think we’ll see more Cole than Isaiah unfortunately.  Cole saw 50% of the snaps last week while Dirty saw 26% last week and 31% the prior week. 

[Nextmanup]

16 minutes ago, gordong said:

Can't believe this thread is still a thing... 

Look at what's being written in it.  Almost none of the content has anything to do with the thread title.

 

It's just rambling, totally off-topic argumentation at this point; most threads get this way after a certain point.

 

Many only maintain their integrity for about 1 page, maybe 2.

 

😂

[jlgarsh]

Just now, NewEra said:

I agree but I think we’ll see more Cole than Isaiah unfortunately.  Cole saw 50% of the snaps last week while Dirty saw 26% last week and 31% the prior week. 

I'd hope for a closer to 50/50 split. Some guys just go off vs certain opponents. Brady vs Bills, Josh vs Dolphins, etc. Maybe McKenzie can turn into our Pats killer? Lol

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In order to tell if that's on Beasley, or on the routes he's being asked to run/depth of target, you (and Football outsiders) would need to take the rudimentary step of looking at Beasley's YBC and YAC.  If one does this, one observes that while his YAC has fallen by 0.6 yds/reception, that would only account for a 49 yd decrease in yardage.

 

Most of Beasley's yardage drop is accounted for by his YBC, which has plummeted from 7.5 to 4.7.  This would tend to indicate that the fall in yardage is due to the routes he's being asked to run/being targeted on and not necessarily a decline in his level of play

 

Don't bother yourself with facts when referencing "Truthers" though.

 

Sure Hap, or he's not winning his routes earlier and that's why he's not getting the ball later in the down.  As for "facts," you offered a hypothesis which may or may not be true.  All we've got to go on are his stats and metrics.  Do you really think if Beas was just as good at getting open in 2021, the coaches would give him poorer/shorter routes because of his insufferable personality?  That's insane, to me, but you do you.  I offered facts - I showed you the metrics FO has provided.  In response we're hearing (from - coincidentally I'm sure - folks with the same vax stance as Cole's) that he's just as effective as last year but he's being punished by the world.  Ok, where is the data to back that up?  Yes, it's possible Allen is being pressured more often/quickly and that's why Cole's numbers are what they are.  If so the other Bills' receivers should have similar reductions in effectiveness in 2021, right?  Do they?  I guess I could look that up for you, but it's been about 4 years of having to respond to baseless conspiracy theories with actual data and I'm tired.

 

The more likely explanation?  Cole Beasley isn't being asked to run shorter routes because of his public display of idiocy.  Instead, the Bills are facing more man coverage this year and Cole has lost a step.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[CoudyBills]

You've all lost your damn minds.

[Mat68]

Mckenzie is the quickest fast guy on the team.  I think he is better today than Beasley.  I think the offense is at its best With Diggs, Mckenzie and Davis on the field.  Sanders and Beasley are still good for what they are.  Reliable guys who open will make catches and tough catches.  They should be accessory options not the main part of the offense at this point.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Sure Hap, or he's not winning his routes earlier and that's why he's not getting the ball later in the down.  As for "facts," you offered a hypothesis which may or may not be true.  

 

I offered facts: a breakdown of Beasley's YBC vs YAC  2020 vs 2021

 

As for why the drop has occurred, we can all speculate, but where the drop is, is a fact - and it's also a fact that absent evidence, it can't be said whether it's on Cole for not getting open on those deeper crossers, the Bills for not using those routes as much, some of both - whatever.

 

A number of things are different for the Bills this year, including how defenses are playing them and our OL (in some games, not giving Josh much time)

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

All we've got to go on are his stats and metrics.  

 

You mean the ones I presented, which you failed to acknowledge and called "a hypothesis"? 

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Do you really think if Beas was just as good at getting open in 2021, the coaches would give him poorer/shorter routes because of his insufferable personality?

 That's insane, to me, but you do you.

 

This is a total straw man.  I've said nothing about Cole's personality here, much less offered that as a reason for a drop in his YBC.

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 I offered facts - I showed you the metrics FO has provided.

 

Yes, you did, and I pointed out a more detailed breakdown in metrics from Pro Football Reference, which shoes that the major drop is in YBC - which leads most sane fans to the conclusion more info is needed before concluding the drop is "on Cole".

 

Could be on Bease, or could be on play design and the routes he's being asked to run - the Bills were noted for running deep crossers last season.  And Cole has always been a guy who takes time to find gaps in the zone work himself open.

 

Oh and by the way...we do realize that Beasley could be asked to run shorter routes more often, or targeted on them more often, while different players are asked to run different routes, so we really can't conclude anything from looking at YBC/YAC stats for other receivers?

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

The more likely explanation?  Cole Beasley isn't being asked to run shorter routes because of his public display of idiocy.  Instead, the Bills are facing more man coverage this year and Cole has lost a step.

 

Again, no one I've seen is hypothesizing the bolded.  That's entirely your made up man o straw, and if you keep it up, I predict that people will ignore you in droves (starting with me) because no one wants to try to have a discussion with guy who pulls this "do you really think...." followed by some argument they weren't at all advancing.

 

As for the latter, I await your link to the data showing that the Bills are facing more man coverage this year, because I don't think that's the case.   As far as I can tell, they're facing more 2 deep zone where teams are rushing 4 and leaving 5 to blanket the middle of the field - often featuring disguised coverage, stunts, and shifts post-snap so that one side of the line is overloaded while the other side is exposed to the run (but we weren't running).   

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, CoudyBills said:

You've all lost your damn minds.

 

I think my mind is just fine, Thank you.

[Coach Tuesday]

47 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

You mean the ones I presented, which you failed to acknowledge and called "a hypothesis"? 

 

Not gonna belabor this.  Your "hypothesis" is that Cole's production may have decreased not because he's less effective as a player, but because he's being asked to do different things.  But it's almost tautological, you're basically presenting stats that support that he's less effective.  So it's one of two things, either he's (i) just as effective as last year, but being put in a position where he can't be as successful, or (ii) is less effective.  No?  Is there a third option here?  If not, why would the Bills take a player who was effective in 2020 and utilize him in a less-effective way?  Are they stupid?  Vindictive?  Trying to phase out an aging contract?  None of that really makes sense.  The likeliest explanation is the one that our eyes are telling us, which is that he's less explosive out of his breaks and less willing to take hits this season - he's not winning early in his routes, so he's not getting the ball farther downfield.

 

As for my supposed "straw man," this board is filled with people accusing Cole of being the victim of a conspiracy.  I'm not going to start pulling examples but I'm sure you know all about it and have better search tools than I do as a mod. 

55 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Oh and by the way...we do realize that Beasley could be asked to run shorter routes more often, or targeted on them more often, while different players are asked to run different routes, so we really can't conclude anything from looking at YBC/YAC stats for other receivers?

 

 

Not what I said - what I actually said was that if the issue was pressure - that Allen being pressured more often and quickly was leading to Beasley getting a shorter YBC (an example of me responding to the stats you presented, not ignoring them as you've accused), then we'd see similar patterns with the other pass-catchers.

[BigDingus]

59 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Not gonna belabor this.  Your "hypothesis" is that Cole's production may have decreased not because he's less effective as a player, but because he's being asked to do different things.  But it's almost tautological, you're basically presenting stats that support that he's less effective.  So it's one of two things, either he's (i) just as effective as last year, but being put in a position where he can't be as successful, or (ii) is less effective.  No?  Is there a third option here?  

 

Technically, yes. The third option would be Allen hasn't been as effective in getting him the ball. Whether it's due to opposing teams utilizing more creative schemes to confuse him, him locking on to his first option & not reading the field, being less accurate overall, not taking advantage of available opportunities as well as he did last year, etc... or any combination of things.

 

Just saying, technically there is a 3rd option, as Cole could be open all game on every play, yet can't control when the ball is thrown to him (or how well it's thrown to him). Not saying that's the case, just a potential 3rd factor.

[Buffaloflash]

2 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Mckenzie is the quickest fast guy on the team.

lil Dirty once said on a podcast, that #33 is the fastest Bill on the team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Not gonna belabor this.  Your "hypothesis" is that Cole's production may have decreased not because he's less effective as a player, but because he's being asked to do different things.  But it's almost tautological, you're basically presenting stats that support that he's less effective.  So it's one of two things, either he's (i) just as effective as last year, but being put in a position where he can't be as successful, or (ii) is less effective.  No?  Is there a third option here?  If not, why would the Bills take a player who was effective in 2020 and utilize him in a less-effective way?  Are they stupid?  Vindictive?  Trying to phase out an aging contract?  None of that really makes sense.  The likeliest explanation is the one that our eyes are telling us, which is that he's less explosive out of his breaks and less willing to take hits this season - he's not winning early in his routes, so he's not getting the ball farther downfield.

 

You create the tautology by  equating "fewer YPC" with "less effective as a player" then asserting that any statistics showing he's got the former proves the latter.  But that does not follow:

1) Beasley could be assigned to run shorter crossing routes, where the ball can come out quicker, meaning fewer YPC

2) Beasley could run the same intermediate crossing routes, but be less effective at running them

3) either way, OL pass protection, Allen reading the defense, and throwing accurate catchable balls are all factors beyond Beasley's control

 

The bottom line is that defenses have been playing the Bills differently, so there are a lot of factors beyond "Beasley is less effective" in play.

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

As for my supposed "straw man," this board is filled with people accusing Cole of being the victim of a conspiracy.  I'm not going to start pulling examples but I'm sure you know all about it and have better search tools than I do as a mod. 

 

You were talking to me.  You said "Do you really think if Beas was just as good at getting open in 2021, the coaches would give him poorer/shorter routes because of his insufferable personality?  That's insane, to me, but you do you.".  That's pretty clearly directed at me, and that implies I, personally, have been arguing that POV.  That's a classic Straw Man since I haven't.  Own it, and Do Better.

 

If you want to contend it was generally intended for the board, then it's "on you" to be clearer about your intent in how you write.

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Not what I said - what I actually said was that if the issue was pressure - that Allen being pressured more often and quickly was leading to Beasley getting a shorter YBC (an example of me responding to the stats you presented, not ignoring them as you've accused), then we'd see similar patterns with the other pass-catchers.

 

But again, that doesn't follow.  Beasley has a different role than the other receivers - to be the quick outlet under pressure.  If Allen can throw to other receivers who are open deeper when he has time, but can't hit a crosser at intermediate depth for Beasley, that can be specific to Beasley - see points 1-3 above.  But the point remains, there are multiple possible reasons for Beasley having shorter YPC this season and being less effective at his route running is only one of them.

 

You also stated:

Quote

Instead, the Bills are facing more man coverage this year and Cole has lost a step.

 

I'm still awaiting your data or link to data showing this.

 

And no, I'm not trusting your eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You create the tautology by  equating "fewer YPC" with "less effective as a player" then asserting that any statistics showing he's got the former proves the latter.  But that does not follow:

1) Beasley could be assigned to run shorter crossing routes, where the ball can come out quicker, meaning fewer YPC

2) Beasley could run the same intermediate crossing routes, but be less effective at running them

3) either way, OL pass protection, Allen reading the defense, and throwing accurate catchable balls are all factors beyond Beasley's control

 

The bottom line is that defenses have been playing the Bills differently, so there are a lot of factors beyond "Beasley is less effective" in play.

 

 

You were talking to me.  You said "Do you really think if Beas was just as good at getting open in 2021, the coaches would give him poorer/shorter routes because of his insufferable personality?  That's insane, to me, but you do you.".  That's pretty clearly directed at me, and that implies I, personally, have been arguing that POV.  That's a classic Straw Man since I haven't.  Own it, and Do Better.

 

If you want to contend it was generally intended for the board, then it's "on you" to be clearer about your intent in how you write.

 

 

But again, that doesn't follow.  Beasley has a different role than the other receivers - to be the quick outlet under pressure.  If Allen can throw to other receivers who are open deeper when he has time, but can't hit a crosser at intermediate depth for Beasley, that can be specific to Beasley - see points 1-3 above.  But the point remains, there are multiple possible reasons for Beasley having shorter YPC this season and being less effective at his route running is only one of them.

 

You also stated:

 

I'm still awaiting your data or link to data showing this.

 

And no, I'm not trusting your eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As the slot receiver he's always been "the quick outlet under pressure" in Buffalo.

 

That's what he's been basically his entire career,  in fact.........and he's almost always been MUCH more productive than this year in ypc.

 

One of his gripes he had about being in Dallas was that they "only threw to me on 3rd down"..........implying that they only gave him the chance to make small plays but with all of the pressure on him.

 

Talk about just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

As the slot receiver he's always been "the quick outlet under pressure" in Buffalo.

 

That's what he's been basically his entire career,  in fact.........and he's almost always been MUCH more productive than this year in ypc.

 

Except of course, for the 3 other years when he wasn’t MUCH more productive than this year in YPC but in fact had similar.  I’m sure you wouldn’t “argue just to argue” by trying to make a case that 4 out of 10 years, 40%, isn’t a significant chunk of a guy’s career.

 

And yes, that was my point - Beasley has had a different role in Buffalo as the slot guy, therefore it shows nothing to ask if other WR have also had a drop-off in YBC or YPC this year 

 

 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

One of his gripes he had about being in Dallas was that they "only threw to me on 3rd down"..........implying that they only gave him the chance to make small plays but with all of the pressure on him.

 

Talk about just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

 

I defer to your superior knowledge of Beasley’s gripes in Dallas.  I thought he wanted to run a more complete route tree, which he was given the chance to do in 2019 and couldn’t quite pull off.  

[Thurman#1]

 

 

On 1/12/2022 at 3:30 AM, 716er said:

Berrios is alright but why settle there when you can get a younger and better (the BEST) slot guy in Godwin?

 

Now that we have a stud like Josh, recruiting a guy like Godwin should not be off the table. Beane loves a big splash, too

 

 

He's good. I certainly wouldn't mind. But next year we're going to be very limited in cap space, and have some real holes to fill, especially on the lines. 

 

If they can fit Godwin in with whatever else they need and can fit, I wouldn't mind one bit, of course.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:47 AM, fan_in_tx said:

So how often did you say the words Beasley and "selfish" prior to his personnel medical decisions?   We all know what these call outs are about. 

 

 

Yes, we do. They're about the many selfish and entitled things he's done this year, and the distractions which simply did not exist before these past two years, at least unless you found poor rap songs distracting.

 

Not to mention that the less outstanding you play, the less acceptable selfishness and entitlement seem to management.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

 

 

On 1/12/2022 at 2:48 AM, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

 So a “slightly” better player, who doesn’t put his team at risk. 
 

But you don’t care about his opinions…. Just like on the other 20+ pages of this thread. 

 

 

Thanks, great post. Your meaning in relation to my post is totally clear to someone somewhere, I'm sure.

 

 

On 1/12/2022 at 4:50 AM, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

My only agenda is not going back to addition but subtraction. 
 

At no point in any of what I wrote did I imply an agenda; except for not wanting trash players on this team. 

 

If you think that a guy like Barrios is the answer, awesome. I don’t. Not even a little. I’m not interested in paying market value for “slightly better”. I would much rather go with the players that are on this team, and use the small FA resources available to sign the core players on this roster, and go out and get some quality players through the draft. 
 

Someday I hope that “fans” can learn to separate the real world, from the distraction that sports brings us. How many players on this team have different religious views? Political views? Parenting choices? Dietary choices? Every single human being on this planet have minds and souls that determine their path. You and I are here to cheer them and boo them for what they do on the field. I’m not sure what the view of that field is like from the horses many of you ride on, but down here on the ground, I’m still pretty happy that Cole Beasley is on this team… and that’s coming from someone who didn’t want him on the team when he signed. 

 

Thing is you're comparing two guys, Berrios and Beasley.

 

Comparing them, you compare Berrios who is an upgrade and would - you're probably right - get market rate, vs. Beasley who is being paid more than his - current - market rate after his performance drop.  

 

And again you seem absolutely desperate to avoid any mention of the fact that Berrios is a terrific returner, one of which we do NOT seem to  have on this team. He adds value there too.

 

You don't want him, fine. Everybody's got an opinion. But with a friendly cap contract they might well save money next year with Berrios replacing Beasley while getting an upgrade and a returner.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In order to tell if that's on Beasley, or on the routes he's being asked to run/depth of target, you (and Football outsiders) would need to take the rudimentary step of looking at Beasley's YBC and YAC.  If one does this, one observes that while his YAC has fallen by 0.6 yds/reception, that would only account for a 49 yd decrease in yardage.

 

Most of Beasley's yardage drop is accounted for by his YBC, which has plummeted from 7.5 to 4.7.  This would tend to indicate that the fall in yardage is due to the routes he's being asked to run/being targeted on and not necessarily a decline in his level of play

 

Don't bother yourself with facts when referencing "Truthers" though.

 

 

Fair enough. 

 

But is that because he is being asked to run shorter routes? Or that he's not getting thrown to deeper because he's not getting open when he goes deeper?

 

Or that he's being asked to run shorter routes because he's not getting open deeper? Or some combination of the above? Perhaps with other factors.

 

I don't think this in fact does help much in telling if that's on Beasley or the routes he's being asked to run.

 

What we can be sure of is that there's a loss of productivity there.

 

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He's not getting thrown to on those deeper crossers. 

 

What I haven't been able to tease out (with the demise of decent Gamepass) is whether that's because those routes have been pulled from the gameplan, whether he's running them and not getting open, or whether Josh isn't getting time to find him on those routes?  Have you been able to watch enough to chart routes?

 

I agree that when I saw McKenzie playing in the 2nd Pats game the speed was a bit eyeball popping to me like "whoah, where has that been?"

 

 

Ah, I see you already addressed all this, a lot.

 

I have the same feeling when I see McKenzie run. And in past years Beasley's quickness popped the same way to me. I just don't see it this year. And that's something that the Belichicks of the world can use.

 

He's still really good at attacking zone, but the fantastic thing about him used to be that he was really good at handling both zone and man-to-man, and that no longer seems to be the case.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Coach Tuesday]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You create the tautology by  equating "fewer YPC" with "less effective as a player" then asserting that any statistics showing he's got the former proves the latter.  But that does not follow:

1) Beasley could be assigned to run shorter crossing routes, where the ball can come out quicker, meaning fewer YPC

2) Beasley could run the same intermediate crossing routes, but be less effective at running them

3) either way, OL pass protection, Allen reading the defense, and throwing accurate catchable balls are all factors beyond Beasley's control

 

The bottom line is that defenses have been playing the Bills differently, so there are a lot of factors beyond "Beasley is less effective" in play.

 

 

You were talking to me.  You said "Do you really think if Beas was just as good at getting open in 2021, the coaches would give him poorer/shorter routes because of his insufferable personality?  That's insane, to me, but you do you.".  That's pretty clearly directed at me, and that implies I, personally, have been arguing that POV.  That's a classic Straw Man since I haven't.  Own it, and Do Better.

 

If you want to contend it was generally intended for the board, then it's "on you" to be clearer about your intent in how you write.

 

 

But again, that doesn't follow.  Beasley has a different role than the other receivers - to be the quick outlet under pressure.  If Allen can throw to other receivers who are open deeper when he has time, but can't hit a crosser at intermediate depth for Beasley, that can be specific to Beasley - see points 1-3 above.  But the point remains, there are multiple possible reasons for Beasley having shorter YPC this season and being less effective at his route running is only one of them.

 

You also stated:

 

I'm still awaiting your data or link to data showing this.

 

And no, I'm not trusting your eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry but YOU addressed ME in this thread, not the other way around.  I linked an article from Football Outsiders - in response to no one specifically - asserting that no receiver in football has declined more than Beas this season.  YOU then responded and suggested I try presenting “facts” next time.  I literally had posted data.  I don’t know what’s got your panties in a bunch but perhaps not having anyone on the injury list to fret about in the pregame thread this week has got you bored.

 

As for the man vs. zone splits, I’m going off of Allen’s man vs. zone performance stats that I’ve been able to find.  I told you it was a hypothesis not a fact (you’re only quoting the second half of what I said).  Allen seems to be playing better against zone than man this season; that was at least the case in the second Patriots game when he shredded their zone and played just ok against man (though completed a few big ones to McKenzie against man coverage).  I assume, as do most metrics like DVOA, that coaches TRY to utilize their players most effectively.
 

If, alternatively, teams are deploying more two-deep shell zone coverage against the Bills this year then there’s almost no explanation for Beasley’s struggles other than his decline as a player.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Sorry but YOU addressed ME in this thread, not the other way around.  

 

Dude, I was talking specifically about the Straw Man thing.  If you can't Cowboy Up and acknowledge that you were using a straw man tactic addressing me, I don't know what to say to ya.

 

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I linked an article from Football Outsiders - in response to no one specifically - asserting that no receiver in football has declined more than Beas this season.  YOU then responded and suggested I try presenting “facts” next time.

 

Once again, this is a misrepresentation of the exchange.  You ended your post with a very snarky comment calling anyone who doesn't accept your FO data on its face value as showing a decline in Beasley's play as a Beasley "truther" who can't be bothered with facts:

Quote

(Don’t bother the Truthers with facts, though…)

 

I pointed out that different data (available at Pro Football Reference without subscription) shows a more nuanced picture with several explanations. Since you seem to have trouble remembering your posts and mine accurately, here's the link.

 

The specific statement I made in response was "Don't bother yourself with facts when referencing "Truthers" though.  It was obviously specifically targeted at your snarky "Don't bother the Truthers with facts though", suggesting that your "facts" and your interpretation  were the only game in town and anyone who doesn't "fall in" is some kind of "Truther".  

 

To misrepresent what I said as "YOU then responded and suggested I try presenting “facts” next time." is another example of intellectual dishonesty and disingenuousness in argument (or a very poor memory on your part - in which case, take the time to review before telling someone what they said).

 

That is all.

 

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 I literally had posted data.  I don’t know what’s got your panties in a bunch but perhaps not having anyone on the injury list to fret about in the pregame thread this week has got you bored.

 

This is pointlessly rude.  It doesn't even have the charm of humor. You get the "I'm debating a mod" free pass right now, but if you do it again, you will be warned just like anyone else.  These tactics don't lend themselves to productive football discussion.

 

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

As for the man vs. zone splits, I’m going off of Allen’s man vs. zone performance stats that I’ve been able to find.

 

Great, share the link to the data.  Glad you have some.

 

Quote

As for the man vs. zone splits, I’m going off of Allen’s man vs. zone performance stats that I’ve been able to find.  I told you it was a hypothesis not a fact (you’re only quoting the second half of what I said).  Allen seems to be playing better against zone than man this season; that was at least the case in the second Patriots game when he shredded their zone and played just ok against man (though completed a few big ones to McKenzie against man coverage).  I assume, as do most metrics like DVOA, that coaches TRY to utilize their players most effectively.
 

If, alternatively, teams are deploying more two-deep shell zone coverage against the Bills this year then there’s almost no explanation for Beasley’s struggles other than his decline as a player.  

 

Here is exactly what you said, since you seem to have trouble remembering:

Quote

The more likely explanation?  Cole Beasley isn't being asked to run shorter routes because of his public display of idiocy.  Instead, the Bills are facing more man coverage this year and Cole has lost a step.

 

That is exactly what you stated and was at the end of the post, with nothing omitted (I did not "only quote the second half of what you said", your post ended with that statement).  I would like to see those stats as I don't think it's true that the Bills are facing more man than zone coverage this year.  Allen's performance man vs zone would also be interesting, but would need to show how much of each he's facing to support your statement.

 

It's been pointed out before (last year) that Beasley can be bracketed and taken away in zone coverage. 

 

If teams are getting quick pressure while employing zone coverage with 7 DB and 2 deep safeties (as Pittsburgh did) - which they can do with stunts or overloading one side of the line - then the reason Beasley won't get targeted on a 10-15 yd deep crosser is that 1) there's not time for the deeper routes to develop 2) they become riskier throws because of the coverage.  So Daboll switches to shallower routes that get open faster (and which the D is willing to give up), and Beasley gets less YPC.  Of course, it's also possible that Beasley just has lost a step and can't run those deeper crossing routes fast enough.  I haven't been able to comb enough out of the crippled all-22 to tell, but the point is, just on the data presented  about YBC, we can't tell what's going on,

 

I think I'm outta here, I've made my points as well as I can, and you're too prone to distorting and misrepresenting what the person you're talking to said to be worth my time (or maybe anyone's time) to try talk to you.

 

[716er]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

He's good. I certainly wouldn't mind. But next year we're going to be very limited in cap space, and have some real holes to fill, especially on the lines. 

 

If they can fit Godwin in with whatever else they need and can fit, I wouldn't mind one bit, of course.

 

True - he is also coming off an injury so that makes me slightly worried but he is only 25 years old. I think the combined contracts of Beasley (cut), McK (don't re-sign), and Sanders (don't resign) from this season would equal out to what Godwin gets paid next year.

 

2021 Cap Hits

Bease - 7.5 million

Sanders - 4.5 million

McK - 1 million

 

In total that's 13 million. Godwin will probably get 15-17 per year. Could they find an extra 2-4 million to pay Godwin and still upgrade the guards on the oline?

 

They would need to add other WR depth in FA/draft, but would likely need to do that anyway.

 

Going into 2022 with a top 3 of Diggs, Godwin, and Davis would be spicy.

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, 716er said:

 

True - he is also coming off an injury so that makes me slightly worried but he is only 25 years old. I think the combined contracts of Beasley (cut), McK (don't re-sign), and Sanders (don't resign) from this season would equal out to what Godwin gets paid next year.

 

2021 Cap Hits

Bease - 7.5 million

Sanders - 4.5 million

McK - 1 million

 

In total that's 13 million. Godwin will probably get 15-17 per year. Could they find an extra 2-4 million to pay Godwin and still upgrade the guards on the oline?

 

They would need to add other WR depth in FA/draft, but would likely need to do that anyway.

 

Going into 2022 with a top 3 of Diggs, Godwin, and Davis would be spicy.

I was thinking Michael Gallup

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I was thinking Michael Gallup

If he did end up here him and Josh would probably have an interesting dynamic, they did link up pretty well at the Senior Bowl, but he is a CSU Ram.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I was thinking Michael Gallup

 

 

Not sure about giving long term deals to guys like Gallup and Godwin who both tore ACL's in the last month or so............and I don't think either is taking a one year deal to come to Buffalo to be the second or third WR option while playing 8 games in the wind tunnel at Orchard Park.

[eball]

Hahaha just watched it.  Love how McD said something and then kept walking on by.

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, 716er said:

 

True - he is also coming off an injury so that makes me slightly worried but he is only 25 years old. I think the combined contracts of Beasley (cut), McK (don't re-sign), and Sanders (don't resign) from this season would equal out to what Godwin gets paid next year.

 

2021 Cap Hits

Bease - 7.5 million

Sanders - 4.5 million

McK - 1 million

 

In total that's 13 million. Godwin will probably get 15-17 per year. Could they find an extra 2-4 million to pay Godwin and still upgrade the guards on the oline?

 

They would need to add other WR depth in FA/draft, but would likely need to do that anyway.

 

Going into 2022 with a top 3 of Diggs, Godwin, and Davis would be spicy.

Wishful thinking.  We’re going to have to buck up and pay Diggs more money too.  Knox is gonna get paid, Tremaine, phillips, levi, Ed, interior OL.  
 

i can’t see us paying both Diggs and godwin 18M plus.  Diggs is gonna want at least that much.  

Edited January 13, 2022 by NewEra