0.22 Yards before contact in the running game.

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

They drafted our starting RT in the 3rd round as well as some more developmental projects. I think this offseason will see the OL as a priority (as WR and DL were previously), as well as getting younger at WR. You can’t do it all at once, unfortunately. 

They "tried" but as we are seeing it was not good enough. 

 

Devey signed

Williams and Feliciano signed to 3 year deals

Boettger tendered and signed

Hart signed

Douglas signed

Lamp signed

Brown drafted 3rd

Doyle drafted 5th

Anderson drafted 7th

Tuitele signed

Gonzalez signed

Harrell signed

Gauthier signed 

[Augie]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

They "tried" but as we are seeing it was not good enough. 

 

Devey signed

Williams and Feliciano signed to 3 year deals

Boettger tendered and signed

Hart signed

Douglas signed

Lamp signed

Brown drafted 3rd

Doyle drafted 5th

Anderson drafted 7th

Tuitele signed

Gonzalez signed

Harrell signed

Gauthier signed 

 

No, it certainly was not good enough, but you only have so many assets to spend in dollars and picks. They signed some fairly solid backups, IMO. The only major investment beyond that was a 3rd for Brown and he looks promising. You never know with OL picks, some late round guys eventually develop. BUT, I will say again I think they draft/sign at least two upgrades to start before next year. We don’t need more, but we do need better. Nobody in their right mind can argue that. 

[Mango]

My better half knows something about that...

ayyyooooo

[ngbills]

Just now, Augie said:

 

No, it certainly was not good enough, but you only have so many assets to spend in dollars and picks. They signed some fairly solid backups, IMO. The only major investment beyond that was a 3rd for Brown and he looks promising. You never know with OL picks, some late round guys eventually develop. BUT, I will say again I think they draft/sign at least two upgrades to start before next year. We don’t need more, but we do need better. Nobody in their right mind can argue that. 

A common theme has been over investing in the DL and hoping they get lucky with pickups like Williams and Feliciano.

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, colin said:

another part of this is while we take risks and don't play with a formation/line up advantage most of the time, teams are getting pretty good at figuring out what we are calling.

It's pretty clear when they run I- formation is going to be a run 95% of the time. Even with motion of the wrs.

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

And the so called wizard did nothing to address it.

That 2022 second round pick isn't blocking anyone this year

 

neither is the 2021 2nd round pick, who is inactive.   

22 minutes ago, ngbills said:

They "tried" but as we are seeing it was not good enough. 

 

Devey signed

Williams and Feliciano signed to 3 year deals

Boettger tendered and signed

Hart signed

Douglas signed

Lamp signed

Brown drafted 3rd

Doyle drafted 5th

Anderson drafted 7th

Tuitele signed

Gonzalez signed

Harrell signed

Gauthier signed 

 

a bunch of throw a dart and hope something sticks.  the resignings are puzzling because this OL was a liability last year also. 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Again, this was the same problem last year and Beane decided to keep the same starting oline intact.

 

And for a team that apparently values analytics and advanced metrics you really have to wonder what they are looking at to assume to hold the line and not make big time changes to the oline.

 

This is an excellent point.  If you fault can fault Beane for anything this off-season, it should be the offensive line.  I think they overvalued what they had in Feliciano and Ford.  I’m sure they didn’t expect a down year from Dawkins and Williams.  
 

I think they took a gamble that the line could play good enough again this year.  Unfortunately it hasn’t worked 
 

[Rigotz]

The problem is both o-line and running backs. The o-line isn't creating holes, but the RBs are going down immediately on first contact and not fast enough to run away from anyone. Ever notice that there are zero outside runs? It's because our RBs can't get out there fast enough.

 

Let's not blame one thing, but I agree with you. Bad o-line = bad running game.

[Blank Stare]

15 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

The problem is both o-line and running backs. The o-line isn't creating holes, but the RBs are going down immediately on first contact and not fast enough to run away from anyone. Ever notice that there are zero outside runs? It's because our RBs can't get out there fast enough.

 

Let's not blame one thing, but I agree with you. Bad o-line = bad running game.

I don’t disagree that both were bad and need to be better, but coaching/play calling doesn’t crack your list of ills? You don’t think Daboll had an obligation to call a better game and protect his undermanned line? 

[Aussie Joe]

Seems a very precise measurement...

[Royale with Cheese]

This is why Ed Wang never made it.

[LeGOATski]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is why Ed Wang never made it.

You know what they say about Asians...

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

They drafted our starting RT in the 3rd round as well as some more developmental projects. I think this offseason will see the OL as a priority (as WR and DL were previously), as well as getting younger at WR. You can’t do it all at once, unfortunately. 

I agree and think the draft picks were moves for 2022.  Beane was hoping to get by this season with Feliciano and Williams.  He can get out of the deals this off-season if they want 

[IronyAbounds]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

As of the Miami game 2.1 secs.

"If you looked at the Bills' performance only from a statistical standpoint, it appeared the offensive line had an OK day. Per NFL Next Gen Stats, Allen had 3.12 seconds to throw, his second-highest window of the season, and he threw 64% of his passes to open receivers, a season high."

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/36546/what-went-wrong-with-the-bills-offense-and-can-it-be-fixed

 

As for the .22, it was the worst in the league Sunday.

[TFBillsfan]

It’s sad that I’m happy if the running game gets a positive two yards. More times than not they lose yards or barely get back to the line of scrimmage. Does anyone have any faith that on 3rd and 2 or 4th down our RB’s will convert. Hell we couldn’t even convert a 4th and inches on a QB sneak without the OL getting blown up. It’s alarming how much our OT’s and OG’s are just getting destroyed.
 

WhIle our D is playing well, our front 4 is struggling to get to the QB with all the money and draft picks that have been invested. 
 

Lots of questions about this team. At the end of the day, the criticism is valid based upon what is occurring in the trenches. The major lack of speed at running back is also alarming. How many times have Singletary or Moss gone for a big game with a short check down?

 

IMO, Defenses have adjusted to Daboll’s playcalling. They are very predictable. The lack of creativity, slants, crossing patterns, QB rollouts is missing this year.

 

My hope is this punch to the groin gets them focused. Any chance of COY, MVP or the #1 seed went out the window yesterday  with that embarrassing loss unless they literally run the table.

[Pete]

yards after contact leaders

Derrick Henry2021TEN89372194.3117.11015418208.619.30

Jonathan Taylor2021IND98211405.991.28293232712.732.61

Nick Chubb2021CLE77211206.0103.0669888.69.90

Joe Mixon2021CIN96361504.270.7719422268.821.62

Ezekiel Elliott2021DAL86221284.977.8515323296.719.11

Darrell Henderson2021LAR85621214.670.3514419287.618.02

Dalvin Cook2021MIN65541154.892.328515235.714.20

Damien Harris2021NE95471334.160.876311135.77.00

Alvin Kamara2021NO85301463.666.3331032449.738.84

Aaron Jones2021GB95161164.457.3323733417.226.34

James Robinson2021JAX7482885.568.9513318247.419.00

Austin Ekeler2021LAC84791014.759.9532536459.040.63

Najee Harris2021PIT74791283.768.4327337497.439.02

Melvin Gordon2021DEN94771094.453.0416320258.218.12

Elijah Mitchell2021SF6469895.378.2373998.112.20

Javonte Williams2021DEN9466954.951.8113522266.115.01

James Conner2021ARI94541153.950.410111101011.112.31

Antonio Gibson2021WAS84421114.055.3314417218.518.01

Leonard Fournette2021TB84391014.354.9423930398.029.90

Chase Edmonds2021ARI9430765.747.8121130377.023.40

Tony Pollard2021DAL8403725.650.4114817188.718.50

Chuba Hubbard2021CAR93941113.543.8215219288.016.90

Mark Ingram2021TOT93641073.440.417014165.07.80

Kareem Hunt2021CLE6361695.260.2516120248.126.80

Devin Singletary2021BUF8355734.944.418221273.910.30

 

Devin is 25th in RB yards after contact

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, damj said:

Per WGR ... our RBs had an average of 0.22 yards before contact.

 

That's less than 8 inches.

 

Very telling stat just how bad the o-line was.

 

 

Very few reps, but yeah. There were a lot of forced changes of direction in the backfield.

 

Worth remembering we had 3 OLs who were either replacements or playing out of position, but you still have to make things happen if you are starting.

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

They "tried" but as we are seeing it was not good enough. 

 

Devey signed

Williams and Feliciano signed to 3 year deals

Boettger tendered and signed

Hart signed

Douglas signed

Lamp signed

Brown drafted 3rd

Doyle drafted 5th

Anderson drafted 7th

Tuitele signed

Gonzalez signed

Harrell signed

Gauthier signed 

 

 

They did try, but this year due to COVID, they are in serious cap trouble. That meant they weren't able to spend much money at all on OLs.

 

The Brown draft pick seems terrific. Losing him showed how valuable he has already become.

[Weatherman]

3 hours ago, Dr. Football said:

8 inches!?!? I’d be contacted immediately if I was the RB!! 

That’s quite the big…..beer belly you have sir.  

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

We can get by with this line: 

 

Dawkins - Feliciano - Morse - Williams - Brown 

 

We drop considerably with any other combination.  Take two players out like now and we are below average. 

 

 

Yeah.

 

2 hours ago, Starr Almighty said:

I said it's a combo of the two. If you don't think the starting RB on this team is bottom 3 in the league then I can't help you there. But he is. Again the OL isn't helping him but he's not talented with vision, speed nor power.

 

If you can't see that calling our RBs bottom 3 is a wild exaggeration, you are correct, you can't help him or anyone, including yourself.

 

Our RBs aren't bottom 3, they simply aren't. They also aren't game breakers in any way. But they are talented, and they do have NFL starter standard speed and power. It really would be great if we could get an upgrade there, but the same is true of many positions on every team in the league. And it's very questionable whether RB should be our first priority to upgrade.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Starr Almighty]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah.

 

 

If you can't see that calling our RBs bottom 3 is a wild exaggeration, you are correct, you can't help him or anyone, including yourself.

 

Our RBs aren't bottom 3, they simply aren't. They also aren't game breakers in any way. But they are talented, and they do have NFL starter standard speed and power. It really would be great if we could get an upgrade there, but the same is true of many positions on every team in the league. And it's very questionable whether RB should be our first priority to upgrade.

 

 

Name 3 NFL starters worse and I mean clearly worse

AFC East

Jets -worse

Fins-tied

AFC North all better

AFC South 

I'll give you Houston

AFC West

KC is a tie and I'm being generous

 

NFC EAST all better

NFC South all better

NFC North all better

NFC West

Hawks are a tie 

He's better than the 9ers cause of injury

Edited November 9, 2021 by Starr Almighty

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

Name 3 NFL starters worse and I mean clearly worse

Carlos Hyde is something like 53 years old and not a starter. He plays behind the vaunted and highly regarded Jaguars Oline. He outplayed our RBs by a considerable margin yesterday. 

The oline sucks.  Having RBs who are not powerful, not fast, and not particularly shifty playing behind a crappy online does not seem to work. 

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Augie said:

 

They drafted our starting RT in the 3rd round as well as some more developmental projects. I think this offseason will see the OL as a priority (as WR and DL were previously), as well as getting younger at WR. You can’t do it all at once, unfortunately. 

 

I don't sense that the age of the WRs is a significant issue...

[Greatdane21]

Very poor line play ,Ford might be the worst in the league right now ,we don’t have a TE that can block like lee Smith.

Bredia and Antonio Williams look like they were shot out of a cannon compared to Moss and singletary.

[Thurman#1]

19 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

Name 3 NFL starters worse and I mean clearly worse

AFC East

Jets -worse

Fins-tied

AFC North all better

AFC South 

I'll give you Houston

AFC West

KC is a tie and I'm being generous

 

NFC EAST all better

NFC South all better

NFC North all better

NFC West

Hawks are a tie 

He's better than the 9ers cause of injury

 

DeAndre Swift, Michael Carter, Darrel Williams.

 

And that was not even slightly difficult.

 

 

[Starr Almighty]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

DeAndre Swift, Michael Carter, Darrel Williams.

 

And that was not even slightly difficult.

 

 

Motor is better than Swift 🤣🤣 He is tried with Williams and I gave you Carter

Edited November 9, 2021 by Starr Almighty

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I don't sense that the age of the WRs is a significant issue...

Sanders is currently 34, and Beasley is 32. Next year they would be 35 and 33. They are two of our top three guys, so I disagree. That is very long in the tooth for NFL WR’s. I’m not saying they are shot by any means, but we need to be looking to the next generation. I’m high on Gabe Davis, but don’t know what we have in the rest of them. 

 

We will need some youth and speed. 

[Chaos]

 

Dante Scarnecchia had the Pats online playing at a high level for a generation. Any chance we have coaching deficiency in this area? 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

yards after contact leaders

Derrick Henry2021TEN89372194.3117.11015418208.619.30

Jonathan Taylor2021IND98211405.991.28293232712.732.61

Nick Chubb2021CLE77211206.0103.0669888.69.90

Joe Mixon2021CIN96361504.270.7719422268.821.62

Ezekiel Elliott2021DAL86221284.977.8515323296.719.11

Darrell Henderson2021LAR85621214.670.3514419287.618.02

Dalvin Cook2021MIN65541154.892.328515235.714.20

Damien Harris2021NE95471334.160.876311135.77.00

Alvin Kamara2021NO85301463.666.3331032449.738.84

Aaron Jones2021GB95161164.457.3323733417.226.34

James Robinson2021JAX7482885.568.9513318247.419.00

Austin Ekeler2021LAC84791014.759.9532536459.040.63

Najee Harris2021PIT74791283.768.4327337497.439.02

Melvin Gordon2021DEN94771094.453.0416320258.218.12

Elijah Mitchell2021SF6469895.378.2373998.112.20

Javonte Williams2021DEN9466954.951.8113522266.115.01

James Conner2021ARI94541153.950.410111101011.112.31

Antonio Gibson2021WAS84421114.055.3314417218.518.01

Leonard Fournette2021TB84391014.354.9423930398.029.90

Chase Edmonds2021ARI9430765.747.8121130377.023.40

Tony Pollard2021DAL8403725.650.4114817188.718.50

Chuba Hubbard2021CAR93941113.543.8215219288.016.90

Mark Ingram2021TOT93641073.440.417014165.07.80

Kareem Hunt2021CLE6361695.260.2516120248.126.80

Devin Singletary2021BUF8355734.944.418221273.910.30

 

Devin is 25th in RB yards after contact

 

 

Not at all sure where you're getting this, what it refers to or what all those numbers mean.

 

But ProFootballReference has Singletary 15th in Yards After Contact / Attempt. And Moss 16th.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/rushing_advanced.htm

 

And when you're getting hit early in the run as the Bills RBs are, your Yards After Contact will be decreased.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Augie said:

Sanders is currently 34, and Beasley is 32. Next year they would be 35 and 33. They are two of our top three guys, so I disagree. That is very long in the tooth for NFL WR’s. I’m not saying they are shot by any means, but we need to be looking to the next generation. I’m high on Gabe Davis, but don’t know what we have in the rest of them. 

 

We will need some youth and speed. 

 

A better O-line and a better play caller would be far more value than a few WRs who can't legally drink.

 

There is nothing wrong with this WR corps now or going into next year.  Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Davis should suffice....on any team in the NFL.

 

This WR corps is some quality H2O..

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

 

Dante Scarnecchia had the Pats online playing at a high level for a generation. Any chance we have coaching deficiency in this area? 

 

I had actually thought of him in the last 24 hours. Maybe the Pegulas should send him a Christmas card……full of cash. 

 

Seriously, I have to wonder how much is talent, and how much we are getting out of the talent we have. I don’t know the answer, but I know it’s a very good question. 

[Thurman#1]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

A better O-line and a better play caller would be far more value than a few WRs who can't legally drink.

 

There is nothing wrong with this WR corps now or going into next year.  Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Davis should suffice....on any team in the NFL.

 

This WR corps is some quality H2O..

 

 

Beasley is beaten up this year and was beaten up late in the season last year.

 

Sanders looks great so far, but he's old enough that you wonder how he'll do late in the season. The older you get the more you wear down. IMO assuming we'll be fine with these WRs next year is assuming far too much at their age. You don't want to be replacing guys too late.

 

And overall Daboll is a terrific play caller. Not that he's perfect and not that he does well every week, but nobody's perfect and nobody does well every week. I agree about the OL, though, in particular the interior., and even more specifically the guards.

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

A better O-line and a better play caller would be far more value than a few WRs who can't legally drink.

 

There is nothing wrong with this WR corps now or going into next year.  Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Davis should suffice....on any team in the NFL.

 

This WR corps is some quality H2O..

 

Several things can be true at once. They are on the older side, and in another year that will certainly not be any better. 

 

I never said they all had to be rookies. Guys like Smoke and Sanders can be found every year.  Just reload if that is the best path, like moving on from oft injured Brown and signing Sanders. 

[Toyo321]

20 minutes ago, Greatdane21 said:

Very poor line play ,Ford might be the worst in the league right now ,we don’t have a TE that can block like lee Smith.

Bredia and Antonio Williams look like they were shot out of a cannon compared to Moss and singletary.

We need to give both of them a chance this week.  It makes no sense not to.

It has to be done to see what they can do in a game like this.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Toyo321

[Thurman#1]

16 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

Motor is better than Swift 🤣🤣 He is tried with Williams and I gave you Carter

 

 

Yeah, I can see why that talk about Smith cracked you up. I mean, he's averaging 3.2 YPC this year. He manages that on an average Yards before contact of 2.4. Yeah, clearly he's special right now.

 

I don't really care who you give me. There are excellent arguments all three of those guys are playing considerably worse. And there are more. You're considerably under-rating Motor, so you're not seeing it.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thurman#1

[PrimeTime101]

They new Guard was our weak spot.. They should of moved on obtaining a Guard... I dont care if we over pay or go to high on draft picks.

 

We still need a guard.. They should of worked out 5 new guards this week and made a change.... 

 

grab someone off a practice squad and throw them in there. cant hurt worse then it is that is for sure...

[Thurman#1]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

They new Guard was our weak spot.. They should of moved on obtaining a Guard... I dont care if we over pay or go to high on draft picks.

 

We still need a guard.. They should of worked out 5 new guards this week and made a change.... 

 

grab someone off a practice squad and throw them in there. cant hurt worse then it is that is for sure...

 

 

Unfortuantely, it could be worse. Not all changes are good ones. And there just aren't a lot of decent guards out there. Bobby Hart was recently plucked from our practice squad. That tells you how bad the supply is right now.

[Sherlock Holmes]

5 hours ago, hjnick said:

Like I said in another post, the only RB that would do well behind this OLine is Sanders, Barry Sanders.

And McCaffrey 

12 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

They new Guard was our weak spot.. They should of moved on obtaining a Guard... I dont care if we over pay or go to high on draft picks.

 

We still need a guard.. They should of worked out 5 new guards this week and made a change.... 

 

grab someone off a practice squad and throw them in there. cant hurt worse then it is that is for sure...

What about Wyatt Teller or Jack Andersen? Oh wait...

[Starr Almighty]

47 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I can see why that talk about Smith cracked you up. I mean, he's averaging 3.2 YPC this year. He manages that on an average Yards before contact of 2.4. Yeah, clearly he's special right now.

 

I don't really care who you give me. There are excellent arguments all three of those guys are playing considerably worse. And there are more. You're considerably under-rating Motor, so you're not seeing it.

 

 

 

You seem to forget he can catch the ball which butterfingers on our team can't and when he does he goes nowhere. BTW his name is Swift.

 

47 Rec 417 Yards 2 TDs vs 21 Rec 82 Yards 0 TDs

The guy has 300+ more yards and 4 more TDs he's clearly worse 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Starr Almighty

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, IronyAbounds said:

"If you looked at the Bills' performance only from a statistical standpoint, it appeared the offensive line had an OK day. Per NFL Next Gen Stats, Allen had 3.12 seconds to throw, his second-highest window of the season, and he threw 64% of his passes to open receivers, a season high."

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/36546/what-went-wrong-with-the-bills-offense-and-can-it-be-fixed

 

As for the .22, it was the worst in the league Sunday.

 

Holding the ball for 3.12 seconds is not the same as the 2.1 seconds time to pressure.  I dont care how long he holds the ball for when he is running for his life and that time still counts.  I care how long our line holds for.  On average this season up to and including the Miami game he has had 2.1 seconds before the pocket is collapsed.  It was 2.4 before the Miami game.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Scott7975

[Old Coot]

Last year when out power running game didn't work Dabol went with a Zone blocking scheme that was more successful.