Insane Investment Into the Dline Paying Off

[billsfan89]

Looking at the 11 Bills defensive linemen on the roster and you can clearly see that the team since 2018 has massively invested cap and draft capital into it. In 2021 these investments seem to be paying off huge. Breaking down how much has been invested makes you really see how much has been put into the unit.
 

Rousseau and Oliver - 1st round picks

AJ and Boogie - 2nd round picks 

Henry Phillips- 3rd round pick

Addison, Butler and Star - all significant free agent signings with fairly large contracts 

Jerry Hughes - Resigned to a large contract

 

The only two players not fitting into the mold of being a high draft pick or large contract are Obada and Zimmer.

 

I know last season I was beginning to question if the Dline investment was going to pay off, but this off season they invested even more and it now looks to be all coming together. I can’t think of a time in recent Bills memory where this much draft and cap capital was invested into a single unit.

[stevewin]

It really is interesting the approach McBeane took - knowing the way to stop some of these high octane offenses/QBs is to generate pressure with 4 - that they decided to have great depth and rotate constantly vs focus only on 4 top starters

Edited October 12, 2021 by stevewin

[Jauronimo]

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

[Mango]

33 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Looking at the 11 Bills defensive linemen on the roster and you can clearly see that the team since 2018 has massively invested cap and draft capital into it. In 2021 these investments seem to be paying off huge. Breaking down how much has been invested makes you really see how much has been put into the unit.
 

Rousseau and Oliver - 1st round picks

AJ and Boogie - 2nd round picks 

Henry Phillips- 3rd round pick

Addison, Butler and Star - all significant free agent signings with fairly large contracts 

Jerry Hughes - Resigned to a large contract

 

The only two players not fitting into the mold of being a high draft pick or large contract are Obada and Zimmer.

 

I know last season I was beginning to question if the Dline investment was going to pay off, but this off season they invested even more and it now looks to be all coming together. I can’t think of a time in recent Bills memory where this much draft and cap capital was invested into a single unit.

 

 

Next years DL room looks a lot different-ish. for sure.  Butler, Hughes, Harrison, Addison, Zimmer, Obada are all in the final years of their contracts

 

Hughes might be a guy who is allowed to stay around as long as he wants to play kind of thing. But he is not getting anymore $10M AAV. He will have to take a pay cut and sign short term deal.

 

I think 2 out of the 3 of Butler, Addison, and Philips are not back next year. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Mango

[nedboy7]

Not seeing any of those absurd comments this week about how McBean doesn't know how to draft 

[First Round Bust]

smart move, you need depth for injury protection, and a mix of vet and youth, and then rotation, nice research and development...does this model work for the OL ?  

[Blank Stare]

McD has been saying he likes a rotation on DL to keep everyone fresh since he got here. With the exception of having the one dominant guy teams have to account for every snap they are on the field (hopefully that’s Rousseau in time), this is a culmination of that philosophy. While he’s been doing the rotation to some degree since he got here, now he actually has the guys to pull it off. “Whole greater than the sum of its parts” sorta thing. 

[maryland-bills-fan]

see also the thread "Are the Bills originating a new trend with such a deep D-line rotation?"

[ndirish1978]

Who is Henry?

[Big Turk]

And just think how much better Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa and even Oliver and Zimmer can get as the season wears on.

 

Oliver has been very noticeable for me on a lot of plays and it's also very noticeable that he has played the highest percentage of snaps of any of the DLineman. His time is coming...he might not ever turn into "Aaron Donald lite" but he is going to be a very good player for a long time.

30 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

 

Epenesa has had much more than one good game. You should actually try watching what you are viewing. You wouldn't look silly with these type of comments as often.

[RyanC883]

29 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

 

agree.  We have one standout potential so far in Rousseau.  The ability to rotate above-average talent is what makes the DL investment worthwhile.  once we shed some of the salary on Addison, etc. we may be able to get higher impact individuals.  But the line as a whole is working out, interestingly.  

[Dopey]

25 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

I mean, if you must argue, ok. The OP said Oliver was a major investment in that we spent a 1st round pick on him. Seeing the numbers put up by this defense and more important, watching the d line play this year, you could easily argue the plan is working just fine and the investments are worth every penny. I'm seeing major returns, but that's JMO.

[RyanC883]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

And just think how much better Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa and even Oliver and Zimmer can get as the season wears on.

 

Oliver has been very noticeable for me on a lot of plays and it's also very noticeable that he has played the highest percentage of snaps of any of the DLineman. His time is coming...he might not ever turn into "Aaron Donald lite" but he is going to be a very good player for a long time.

 

if these younger guys have a year 3 breakout (knox like), then we will have the scariest DL in the league.  

[Jauronimo]

10 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

McD has been saying he likes a rotation on DL to keep everyone fresh since he got here. With the exception of having the one dominant guy teams have to account for every snap they are on the field (hopefully that’s Rousseau in time), this is a culmination of that philosophy. While he’s been doing the rotation to some degree since he got here, now he actually has the guys to pull it off. “Whole greater than the sum of its parts” sorta thing. 

A rotation is great and all, but if we had any all pros on this line I think we would find that rotation doesn't apply to superstars.  Aaron Donald and Chase Young play a lot of snaps.  

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

And just think how much better Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa and even Oliver and Zimmer can get as the season wears on.

 

Oliver has been very noticeable for me on a lot of plays and it's also very noticeable that he has played the highest percentage of snaps of any of the DLineman. His time is coming...he might not ever turn into "Aaron Donald lite" but he is going to be a very good player for a long time.

 

Epenesa has had much more than one good game. You should actually try watching what you are viewing. You wouldn't look silly with these type of comments as often.

Haven't missed a game in years but great point.  The onus is on you.  How many good games has he had? How many great games?

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

I mean, if you must argue, ok. The OP said Oliver was a major investment in that we spent a 1st round pick on him. Seeing the numbers put up by this defense and more important, watching the d line play this year, you could easily argue the plan is working just fine and the investments are worth every penny. I'm seeing major returns, but that's JMO.

If the plan was to spend day 1 and day 2 picks amassing a bunch of unspectacular rotational D lineman then the plan f@#$ing sucks.

[Dopey]

1 minute ago, RyanC883 said:

 

agree.  We have one standout potential so far in Rousseau.  The ability to rotate above-average talent is what makes the DL investment worthwhile.  once we shed some of the salary on Addison, etc. we may be able to get higher impact individuals.  But the line as a whole is working out, interestingly.  

Interestingly, it's almost like Mcbeane had a plan and it's working. Imagine that. You're saying what the OP said, yet agree with an opposing thread.

[RyanC883]

Just now, Dopey said:

Interestingly, it's almost like Mcbeane had a plan and it's working. Imagine that. You're saying what the OP said, yet agree with an opposing thread.

 

I think the "opposing" thread was stating that the goal was to get an impact player, but didn't.  I think Bean believed that one or more of those picks, esp. Oliver and AJ would be a game changers.  When that didn't happen, it was keep drafting DL for a rotation and/or to hit on someone.  So both are correct, in a weird way.  

[Dopey]

4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

A rotation is great and all, but if we had any all pros on this line I think we would find that rotation doesn't apply to superstars.  Aaron Donald and Chase Young play a lot of snaps.  

Haven't missed a game in years but great point.  The onus is on you.  How many good games has he had? How many great games?

If the plan was to spend day 1 and day 2 picks amassing a bunch of unspectacular rotational D lineman then the plan f@#$ing sucks.

Again, it's easy to argue the OPs thread, if that's your cup of tea. He's not wrong in any way, shape or form. Ah, yes, Chase Young and that awesome defense he mans. OK.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I think the "opposing" thread was stating that the goal was to get an impact player, but didn't.  I think Bean believed that one or more of those picks, esp. Oliver and AJ would be a game changers.  When that didn't happen, it was keep drafting DL for a rotation and/or to hit on someone.  So both are correct, in a weird way.  

 

I think Rousseau is going to be that player.

 

He is basically Josh Allen raw on the defensive side...played one year of college football and dominated but didn't really know what he was doing.

 

Imagine how good he is going to be once he actually knows all the one and outs?

Edited October 12, 2021 by Big Turk

[Dopey]

10 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

A rotation is great and all, but if we had any all pros on this line I think we would find that rotation doesn't apply to superstars.  Aaron Donald and Chase Young play a lot of snaps.  

Haven't missed a game in years but great point.  The onus is on you.  How many good games has he had? How many great games?

If the plan was to spend day 1 and day 2 picks amassing a bunch of unspectacular rotational D lineman then the plan f@#$ing sucks.

I think the plan was to build a heck of a d line and d line rotation. Mission accomplished. Sometimes those guys who get paid to build a team know better than we do. If this is your idea of a plan that ***** sucks...

[WhoTom]

So I guess it wasn't insane, then.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

Looking at the 11 Bills defensive linemen on the roster and you can clearly see that the team since 2018 has massively invested cap and draft capital into it. In 2021 these investments seem to be paying off huge. Breaking down how much has been invested makes you really see how much has been put into the unit.
 

Rousseau and Oliver - 1st round picks

AJ and Boogie - 2nd round picks 

Henry Phillips- 3rd round pick

Addison, Butler and Star - all significant free agent signings with fairly large contracts 

Jerry Hughes - Resigned to a large contract

 

The only two players not fitting into the mold of being a high draft pick or large contract are Obada and Zimmer.

 

I know last season I was beginning to question if the Dline investment was going to pay off, but this off season they invested even more and it now looks to be all coming together. I can’t think of a time in recent Bills memory where this much draft and cap capital was invested into a single unit.

How dare you question the Wizard??

[Ya Digg?]

So it's almost as much investment as the Ravens have put into getting Jackson receiving help (multiple firsts, seconds, and thirds, high priced free agents)....except ours seems to be paying off!

 

 

[Blank Stare]

21 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

A rotation is great and all, but if we had any all pros on this line I think we would find that rotation doesn't apply to superstars.  Aaron Donald and Chase Young play a lot of snaps.  

Agree…to an extent. If you have a superstar DL’man, you should make sure he’s on the field as much as possible. But, where the “to an extent” comes in for me is that I still think they’d rotate that guy more than most teams might. McD and Frazier have talked several times about how they want those guys fresh in the 4th quarter to go hunt. Everything they’ve done to this point seems to support what they say. So, while I agree with you that the splits wouldn’t look quite like they do now if we had “that guy”, I still think you’d see some rotation to keep “that guy” fresh throughout the game/season. 

[Jauronimo]

13 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I think the plan was to build a heck of a d line and d line rotation. Mission accomplished. Sometimes those guys who get paid to build a team know better than we do. If this is your idea of a plan that ***** sucks...

Beane did not plan on spending nearly this much draft capital and salary cap on the D line.  He was afforded the opportunity to continue using a disproportionate amount of resources shoring up the shakiest unit on this team because he's been so successful in drafting, signing, and retaining talent in every other area of the team.  

 

Beane has done a tremendous job building the Buffalo Bills.  I give him tons of credit for our recent success.  The defense is playing lights out as a unit but that does not mean that the building of the Dline has been some master plan executed to perfection.  In my opinion, addressing the defensive line has been his biggest struggle.

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

Looking at the 11 Bills defensive linemen on the roster and you can clearly see that the team since 2018 has massively invested cap and draft capital into it. In 2021 these investments seem to be paying off huge. Breaking down how much has been invested makes you really see how much has been put into the unit.
 

Rousseau and Oliver - 1st round picks

AJ and Boogie - 2nd round picks 

Henry Phillips- 3rd round pick

Addison, Butler and Star - all significant free agent signings with fairly large contracts 

Jerry Hughes - Resigned to a large contract

 

The only two players not fitting into the mold of being a high draft pick or large contract are Obada and Zimmer.

 

I know last season I was beginning to question if the Dline investment was going to pay off, but this off season they invested even more and it now looks to be all coming together. I can’t think of a time in recent Bills memory where this much draft and cap capital was invested into a single unit.

Expect a DT drafted with our first round pick next draft. Pick # 32 - DT....

 

Then expect a C/G with pick #64 next draft as well.

 

Once you've found your QB, build those lines!!!

 

After the first two picks we can draft some skill for the O and help in the secondary (outside corner).

 

Earlier this year, I was kind of hoping we could sign a FA pass rusher for next season to replace to replace Jerry and Mario and even Star but it is becoming clear that all our money will be spent just keeping this team together and our nine draft picks and UDFAs will be the way we add to the team and replace talent we can't hold on to. 

[Nextmanup]

I keep saying it every once in a while in these threads, but the guy I LOVE is Rousseau.

 

I really think he's going to blossom as the "special" guy of the whole bunch.

 

 

[Magox]

The Bills have one of the deepest defensive lines in the NFL.  It’s because of the draft and FA that they have been able to bring these constant waves of pressure and keep their D line fresh.

 

No true stars, just good solid football players all the way from the front four to the 5 reserves.   Thing of beauty

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

56 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

McD has been saying he likes a rotation on DL to keep everyone fresh since he got here. With the exception of having the one dominant guy teams have to account for every snap they are on the field (hopefully that’s Rousseau in time), this is a culmination of that philosophy. While he’s been doing the rotation to some degree since he got here, now he actually has the guys to pull it off. “Whole greater than the sum of its parts” sorta thing. 

 

Just watching the colts completely run out of gas, it's probably a smart strategy. 

[Rico]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

 

Next years DL room looks a lot different-ish. for sure.  Butler, Hughes, Harrison, Addison, Zimmer, Obada are all in the final years of their contracts

 

Hughes might be a guy who is allowed to stay around as long as he wants to play kind of thing. But he is not getting anymore $10M AAV. He will have to take a pay cut and sign short term deal.

 

I think 2 out of the 3 of Butler, Addison, and Philips are not back next year. 

I’d keep Addison of those 3, wouldn’t miss the other 2 at all.

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

Oliver has looked great. So has Boogie and obv Groot.  AJ hasn't been as effective last 2 weeks,maybe minor injury related? Hasn't been terrible either,still creating pressure. 

Zimmer as well was a great find 

Addison ,Hughes and Star are all getting paid pretty fairly. 

Not all about sacks,we've been phenomenal at hurries and QB hits,all while keeping guys fresh n rotating 

It's a huge luxury to be able to rotate these guys. There's so many examples of DLs getting tired n torched in the 2nd half but look at last night. 

Indy went from getting constant pressure to being drained by 4th qtr n OT because they don't have the luxury of subbing guys without a huge drop off

[maryland-bills-fan]

10 minutes ago, Rico said:

I’d keep Addison of those 3, wouldn’t miss the other 2 at all.

You need some heavy beef in the middle for some teams.

 

[Rico]

1 minute ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

You need some heavy beef in the middle for some teams.

 

I hear you, but don’t need any JAGs though… like to see an upgrade there (eventual Star replacement).

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, Rico said:

I hear you, but don’t need any JAGs though… like to see an upgrade there (eventual Star replacement).

I fully expect that a high draft pick will be used next year to find a Star replacement, if theres one to be had.

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

 

Disagree with you on Ed Oliver, I think most definitely they are picking up his fifth year option. There is a reason why on a deep D-line they are playing him the most snaps by albeit a small margin. He was solid his rookie year and then out of position but still respectable his second year. Now that he is back to his most natural position he is really becoming a highly disruptive player. 

 

Fair points that the jury is still out on AJ although he is looking better and Boogie is still the jury is out. However the D-line as a unit is performing well. The overall play of the unit being one of the best in the league is justifying the high price tag. 

[BillsFanSD]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Harrison is a healthy scratch, Oliver's 5th year option is major ??, Epenesa has had one good game.  Rousseau looks like he could be the real deal and that will make everything worth it but you could just as easily argue that we have had pedestrian returns for the amount of investment in the D line. 

Unfortunately I have to agree with this.  I mean, obviously the D-line is playing extremely well as a unit right now, so the results are definitely there.  But we invested an absolutely massive amount of draft capital at these positions, and it feels like our "hit rate" is lower than it really should be.  Nobody on our line is a stud right now.  I'm kind of optimistic about Rousseau, but we sunk a lot of premium picks into the D-line with not a lot of star power.

[billsfan89]

14 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Oliver has looked great. So has Boogie and obv Groot.  AJ hasn't been as effective last 2 weeks,maybe minor injury related? Hasn't been terrible either,still creating pressure. 

Zimmer as well was a great find 

Addison ,Hughes and Star are all getting paid pretty fairly. 

Not all about sacks,we've been phenomenal at hurries and QB hits,all while keeping guys fresh n rotating 

It's a huge luxury to be able to rotate these guys. There's so many examples of DLs getting tired n torched in the 2nd half but look at last night. 

Indy went from getting constant pressure to being drained by 4th qtr n OT because they don't have the luxury of subbing guys without a huge drop off

 

I think the rotation being a lot higher than other teams will deflate the stats of the D-line. As a whole the D-line is just fantastic and deep. They pass the eye test and even the advanced metrics which are flawed but not fully useless (I think PFF and football outsiders is most useful for line play) back up that the D-line is performing well as a whole and as individual pieces for the most part. 

[WhoTom]

20 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Beane did not plan on spending nearly this much draft capital and salary cap on the D line.  He was afforded the opportunity to continue using a disproportionate amount of resources shoring up the shakiest unit on this team because he's been so successful in drafting, signing, and retaining talent in every other area of the team.  

 

Beane has done a tremendous job building the Buffalo Bills.  I give him tons of credit for our recent success.  The defense is playing lights out as a unit but that does not mean that the building of the Dline has been some master plan executed to perfection.  In my opinion, addressing the defensive line has been his biggest struggle.

 

Agree in general. To your last point, Beane has been patient when it comes to acquiring players. He's had plenty of holes to fill, and he's filling them with the best affordable guys at those positions as they become available. That includes free agents and draft picks. I think it's just that D-line options fitting those criteria were scarce until now - nice timing, since it happened to be the most significant need going into this season.

 

You're right that the D-line has been his biggest struggle, but I'm not sure if that's a weakness on his part or if he just played the cards he was dealt. Given the outcome, and the way he's managed to acquire, draft, and keep good players, I'm inclined to think the latter.

 

[billsfan89]

1 minute ago, BillsFanSD said:

Unfortunately I have to agree with this.  I mean, obviously the D-line is playing extremely well as a unit right now, so the results are definitely there.  But we invested an absolutely massive amount of draft capital at these positions, and it feels like our "hit rate" is lower than it really should be.  Nobody on our line is a stud right now.  I'm kind of optimistic about Rousseau, but we sunk a lot of premium picks into the D-line with not a lot of star power.

 

Is the "star power" not there because the stats aren't there because of the heavy rotation this team plays? Ed Oliver in my opinion is breaking out and Rousseau is having a hell of a rookie year. AJ and Boogie are flashing and Star, Hughes, and Addision are performing well too. Last year I would have agreed that the team's D-line was underperforming relative to the investment the team put into it. But this year they are as a whole unit far greater than the individual parts. Stats can be deflated due to lower snaps counts for individual players. 

 

The Bills are tied with the Rams for 5th in the NFL in sacks per game at 2.8 sacks per game (last year they had 2.3 sack per game which would rank 13th this season and ranked 15th last year) and have a ton of high rated team defense aspects to them like a stout yards per game and rushing/passing defense stats. 

[maryland-bills-fan]

36 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

Unfortunately I have to agree with this.  I mean, obviously the D-line is playing extremely well as a unit right now, so the results are definitely there.  But we invested an absolutely massive amount of draft capital at these positions, and it feels like our "hit rate" is lower than it really should be.  Nobody on our line is a stud right now.  I'm kind of optimistic about Rousseau, but we sunk a lot of premium picks into the D-line with not a lot of star power.

Would KC agree with you?

29 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

Is the "star power" not there because the stats aren't there because of the heavy rotation this team plays? Ed Oliver in my opinion is breaking out and Rousseau is having a hell of a rookie year. AJ and Boogie are flashing and Star, Hughes, and Addision are performing well too. Last year I would have agreed that the team's D-line was underperforming relative to the investment the team put into it. But this year they are as a whole unit far greater than the individual parts. Stats can be deflated due to lower snaps counts for individual players. 

 

The Bills are tied with the Rams for 5th in the NFL in sacks per game at 2.8 sacks per game (last year they had 2.3 sack per game which would rank 13th this season and ranked 15th last year) and have a ton of high rated team defense aspects to them like a stout yards per game and rushing/passing defense stats. 

You should mention that we played a high % of teams with mobile QB's, so containment was relatively more important than sacks.

 

[billsfan89]

2 hours ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

 

You should mention that we played a high % of teams with mobile QB's, so containment was relatively more important than sacks.

 

I didn’t factor in the mobility of the QB’s the Bills have faced thus far. But I suspect that the Bills sack leader whomever it may be this season will likely have 8 or less sacks but as long as the team sacks are high it doesn’t matter.