Bills restructure Diggs contract; create 7.8. Mill in cap space

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am sure I remember there being a thing about them changing his positional designation to Tight End before final cut downs.

They did, and he changed his # to 86

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I am sure I remember there being a thing about them changing his positional designation to Tight End before final cut downs.

 

They might have done it after the first game but he was definitely listed as a FB for the first one.  I didn't check further than that.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Doc

[njbuff]

It's about time we start another Ertz thread. 😃🙃

[Boxcar]

4 minutes ago, njbuff said:

It's about time we start another Ertz thread. 😃🙃

This has been the most drawn out, telegraphed trade I can ever remember. I'll just be glad to have it over and done with, sign Nelson or Sherman and call it a day.

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hollister is supposedly looking good at OTAs so far, already seems to have a better connection with Allen than Knox. This won't be a popular opinion on here but if we do actually trade for Ertz, Knox isn't a lock to make the team.

Plenty of teams utilize 3 TEs.

[Einstein's Dog]

5 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

GB, I’m betting they keep JA, and Trubisky, and have a slot for a PS QB like Jake from State Fromm.  Webb is probably cut.  

 

 As far as the $, it’s possible it was freed up for Ertz, but consider teams like to have $2-3 mil. This means they have truly free around $7 mil.  It could be for Ertz, another player or getting parsed into the Allen and Edmunds contracts.  I have no idea.

 

The comments above on Ertz is correct in that his numbers prior to last year were not far off Kelce’s career numbers.

A couple of comments:

1.  Hope they figure out a way to keep Webb, I like the guy.

2.  For Ertz I'm thinking they may try and move one of the DL that are not in Buff.  For instance someone mentioned that Butler would be a $4M reduction if traded.  Could be a way for the genius Beane to add Ertz and Nelson.  

3.  Adding Ertz not only brings in his skills.  It would add the hidden benefit of defensive attention and adjustment that should benefit others.  Ertz feasts on zones and that would be a real problem to the latest D used against the Bills.

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

They might have done it after the first game but he was definitely listed as a FB for the first one.  I didn't check further than that.

Not sure where youre looking but this article indicates the switch happened before cut down day and before the first game on 13SEP. 

 

https://buffalowdown.com/2020/09/02/buffalo-bills-could-reggie-gilliam-make-the-roster-as-a-tight-end/

[DJB]

Posters saying we shouldn't trade for Ertz because Hollister "looks good"

 

When Jay Reimersma is the greatest  Bills TE of all time its easy for most TE's to  "look good". 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by DJB

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

4 minutes ago, DJB said:

Posters saying we shouldn't trade for Ertz because Hollister "looks good"

 

When Jay Reimersma is the greatest  Bills TE of all time its easy for most TE's to  "look good". 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hollister has 2 practices in May/June that reporters could see. How can he "look good" enough where anyone could make any kind of judgement about how he will fare this year? Offseason be crazy

[Doc]

24 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Not sure where youre looking but this article indicates the switch happened before cut down day and before the first game on 13SEP. 

 

https://buffalowdown.com/2020/09/02/buffalo-bills-could-reggie-gilliam-make-the-roster-as-a-tight-end/

 

It's from the opening day gamebook, which is the official record.  I copied the link but it would let me paste it here.

 

In any case, it's semantics.  The Bills kept 4 TEs.

[HappyDays]

More info on the Ertz rumor:

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by HappyDays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Yes but it’s been many years since he reported anything 

 

Do you happen to remember what he broke?

 

He said:

 

 

FWIW, Buffalo Fanatics is saying

 

Dunno what "lot of Buzz" means to them.  I know they're plugged in with a bunch of players but players don't necessarily know what the FO is doing.  And a lot of people have been speculating Ertz Ertz Ertz for months.

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They actually kept 4 with Gilliam as the 4th, he was listed as a Tight End and lined up very little at full back. He was really on the team as the 4th tight end and a core special teamer. But their history does suggest they keep 4 players in that combination of Tight End and Full Back roles and have done so even when the talent level at those spots has been low. I'd be tempted to go with 3 but I expect them to go with 4.

 

 

They kept 4 TE's in 2020........and statistically their run game was better using 12 personnel and their pass game wasn't diminished by using 2 TE's(there was a lot of statistical data posted about it early in the prior Ertz thread).

 

Being able to threaten the seam is a valuable aspect of their passing game that the Bills have been notably deficient in.........without it the safeties are able to pay more attention to the sidelines,  which makes it harder for a team with modest deep speed on the outsides to complete field stretching passes.

 

It would be great if an Ertz acquisition was in unison with a deep threat WR.........but I do think a quality, reliable, veteran,  athletic TE option like Ertz would give the boundary receivers a bit more breathing room on deeper routes over the course of a season.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by BADOLBILZ

[MJS]

I suppose we'll see. I believe it when I see it.

[Special K]

9 hours ago, njbuff said:

It's about time we start another Ertz thread. 😃🙃

 

ERTZ WATCH!!!

[YoloinOhio]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you happen to remember what he broke?

 

He said:

 

 

FWIW, Buffalo Fanatics is saying

 

Dunno what "lot of Buzz" means to them.  I know they're plugged in with a bunch of players but players don't necessarily know what the FO is doing.  And a lot of people have been speculating Ertz Ertz Ertz for months.

I don’t remember. I think it might have been the Shaq Lawson injury at TC but tbh it was so long ago I’m not sure 

Edited June 3, 2021 by YoloinOhio

[wakingfane]

The melodrama around this Ertz trade has been really annoying and,  frankly embarrassing to the professionals involved who... if this were the routine with every freakin transaction,  could not reasonably operate in such an environment and keep their cool/ sanity... The leaks have to be on the Philly side.  We just haven't seen this kind of BS from Beane's shop. I know as a fan I should be glad I've been getting a scoop on this for three months,  but it's actually really not a satisfying experience,  lol

[Victory Formation]

10 hours ago, DJB said:

Posters saying we shouldn't trade for Ertz because Hollister "looks good"

 

When Jay Reimersma is the greatest  Bills TE of all time its easy for most TE's to  "look good". 

 

Clay was pretty good.

[DJB]

24 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Clay was pretty good.

 

Led us in receiving yards as well

[BuffaloRebound]

Why would Philly pay any of Ertz’s salary?  They only have $2m in cap space. And I can’t see Beane giving up a 4th or 5th rounder for a couple million in cash and salary cap room.  

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Why would Philly pay any of Ertz’s salary?  They only have $2m in cap space.

 

His current cap hit is already factored in to their cap space. If they retain say $8 million of his $13 million cap hit, they would still get $5 million back in cap space.

 

In normal trade conditions they wouldn't have to retain any part of his salary, but since Ertz is basically refusing to stay with the team they have no leverage. They can either eat some of his salary to make sure they get a draft pick back for him, or they can release him for nothing and still get hit with $8 million in dead cap. Beane is a smart GM and knows he has the leverage.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Clay was pretty good.

 

He was pretty overpaid. Not sure that's the same.

[ChanticleerBillsFan]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was pretty overpaid. Not sure that's the same.

He was, but also underutilized

[eball]

So with Rousseau signing the Bills are now roughly 9M under the cap with only Spencer Brown left to sign.  His cap hit isn’t likely to be more than 1M (3rd rounder, Rousseau’s hit is ~2M) so they’ve got 8M+ to play with.

 

Come on Beane, show us something!

[BuffaloRebound]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

His current cap hit is already factored in to their cap space. If they retain say $8 million of his $13 million cap hit, they would still get $5 million back in cap space.

 

In normal trade conditions they wouldn't have to retain any part of his salary, but since Ertz is basically refusing to stay with the team they have no leverage. They can either eat some of his salary to make sure they get a draft pick back for him, or they can release him for nothing and still get hit with $8 million in dead cap. Beane is a smart GM and knows he has the leverage.

Eagles save $5m in cap space cutting Ertz.  They avoid paying his $8.5m salary which is non-guaranteed but then incur an extra $3.5m in future year bonus amortization.  I can’t see Beane giving up a 4th without Philly picking up at least half of Ertz’s $8.5m salary.  That means Philly would need to make other moves to get under the cap.  

[Just Joshin']

4 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Eagles save $5m in cap space cutting Ertz.  They avoid paying his $8.5m salary which is non-guaranteed but then incur an extra $3.5m in future year bonus amortization.  I can’t see Beane giving up a 4th without Philly picking up at least half of Ertz’s $8.5m salary.  That means Philly would need to make other moves to get under the cap.  

All other things equal, does Beane give up a 4th for a 1 year rental?

[Einstein's Dog]

21 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

All other things equal, does Beane give up a 4th for a 1 year rental?

I'm hoping they structure the deal for more than one year.  You want at least the option to keep Ertz for 2.  Would be a slight risk, but seems worth it to me to get the opportunity to have some consistency with a good TE for Josh.

 

I'm also hoping they don't give up to a 4th to save money.  I'm hoping the Bills can do this for a 5th.  Or figure a way to unload one of our overpriced DL (ie Butler).

[Boxcar]

23 hours ago, Tom Donahoe, GM said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hollister has 2 practices in May/June that reporters could see. How can he "look good" enough where anyone could make any kind of judgement about how he will fare this year? Offseason be crazy

Fwiw, he seemed to have great chemistry with Josh in college.

 

Either way, there's nothing wrong with having 3 TEs. Do wish Ertz was a better blocker, though. Realistically, he's closer to a slot receiver than a TE, but maybe it's just the way he was used in Philly.

[BarleyNY]

Here is my quick breakdown using Spotrac:

 

The Iggles have the exact same cap hits whether Ertz is traded or released at this point.  $4.22M cap hit in 2021, $3.55M cap hit in 2022.  They would save $8.5M in space and salary this season.  Any salary they would take on in a trade would add to his cap hit this season. 
 

The Bills would take on his $8.5M salary and cap hit this season, less anything the Iggles agreed to take.  So the trade is really a pick for taking on some cap/salary on the Iggles side.  On the Bills side they’re just looking to buy down his one year contract with a day 3 pick.  Presumably they’d be looking at how much less they’d be paying him versus what it would be on the FA market, not his current $8.5M salary.

 

There are ways to value the cap equivalent of draft picks - this OTC article has examples - but I can definitely see why this would be such a difficult trade to make.  Without knowing his market price it’s impossible to figure out what the right pick for salary amounts are fair - or if it’s even possible to make them fair. 

[Einstein's Dog]

14 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

The Iggles have the exact same cap hits whether Ertz is traded or released at this point.  $4.22M cap hit in 2021, $3.55M cap hit in 2022.  They would save $8.5M 
 

The Bills would take on his $8.5M salary and cap hit this season, less anything the Iggles agreed to take.  So the trade is really a pick for taking on some cap/salary on the Iggles side.  On the Bills side they’re just looking to buy down his one year contract with a day 3 pick.  Presumably they’d be looking at how much less they’d be paying him versus what it would be on the FA market, not his current $8.5M salary.

 

 Without knowing his market price it’s impossible to figure out what the right pick for salary amounts are fair - or if it’s even possible to make them fair. 

A trade/pick is for more than cap/salary.   You keep Ertz from hitting the open market.  You get to negotiate a deal (which is probably the delay).

 

The market price of Ertz is a huge factor.  At one time, a selling point was you would get Ertz for the $8.5M, which seemed a bargain.  The general public has shifted massively since then, and it seems you have bought in.

 

What do you think a fair price for Ertz is?  Hunter/J Smith both got over $12, Pitts is at $8.5, J Graham is at $8, Higbee $7+, Hooper is over $10M.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, eball said:

So with Rousseau signing the Bills are now roughly 9M under the cap with only Spencer Brown left to sign.  His cap hit isn’t likely to be more than 1M (3rd rounder, Rousseau’s hit is ~2M) so they’ve got 8M+ to play with.

 

Come on Beane, show us something!

 

Less hit than that, since he will likely push another player out of the top 51.  So his cap hit will be whatever an end-of-the-3rd-rounder signs for, minus $920,000.

 

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

A trade/pick is for more than cap/salary.   You keep Ertz from hitting the open market.  You get to negotiate a deal (which is probably the delay).

 

The market price of Ertz is a huge factor.  At one time, a selling point was you would get Ertz for the $8.5M, which seemed a bargain.  The general public has shifted massively since then, and it seems you have bought in.

 

What do you think a fair price for Ertz is?  Hunter/J Smith both got over $12, Pitts is at $8.5, J Graham is at $8, Higbee $7+, Hooper is over $10M.

 

I was only trying to explain the situation, not give an opinion of whether we should acquire Ertz.  I am not a big fan of our TE corps so I’d love to get Ertz.  As for what he’s worth in the FA market, I already said that I didn’t have a great idea because it’s June and there are less teams in need of a TE and less cap space in the league.  That muddies the waters.  Is he worth $8.5M?  Probably, but if Beane can flip a day 3 pick to lessen his salary and cap hit, then all the better.  Or if he hits the FA market and we get him for 2 or 3 seasons instead of 1, that’s better too.  Or maybe he take a little more money to play for a team that’s not a contender and we miss out on him.  But did we want him if that’s where his head was?

Edited June 4, 2021 by BarleyNY

[YoloinOhio]

I don’t think ertz would be a good fit on this team, I think he would be a great fit. There is a need for this type of TE here and he is a pros pro as Beane says. Knows what it takes to win a ring. Just a couple years ago the Bills respected him so much that Tre White shadow him. He’s not Travis Kelce but this is the type of TE that McDermott and Beane feel we did not have last year. I like Knox but he’s still developing and they knew he was a project. I know people like joe Marino feel he’s not needed in this offense because he would steal targets from the WRs but I see it differently.  Ertz could scare the defense just enough to commit more to him in the game plan than they would to Knox and open more space for the WRs. The Bills are like 31st In cap space allotted to the TE position. Just do it. He makes the team better and McDermott likes to have a vet leader in the locker room at every position. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by YoloinOhio

[Rubes]

13 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I don’t think ertz would be a good fit on this team, I think he would be a great fit. There is a need for this type of TE here and he is a pros pro as Beane says. Knows what it takes to win a ring. Just a couple years ago the Bills respected him so much that Tre White shadow him. He’s not Travis Kelce but this is the type of TE that McDermott and Beane feel we did not have last year. I like Knox but he’s still developing and they knew he was a project. I know people like joe Marino feel he’s not needed in this offense because he would steal targets from the WRs but I see it differently.  Ertz could scare the defense just enough to commit more to him in the game plan than they would to Knox and open more space for the WRs. The Bills are like 31st In cap space allotted to the TE position. Just do it. He makes the team better and McDermott likes to have a vet leader in the locker room at every position. 

 

I agree, but do you think the Bills are better off using the remaining cap space on Ertz, or on a vet CB?

 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, Rubes said:

 

I agree, but do you think the Bills are better off using the remaining cap space on Ertz, or on a vet CB?

 

I think they can sign a vet CB too if they want. That was just one cap move. I don’t know if they really need to sign one though. It’s basically like Nelson or no one for me anyway. 

[Rubes]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I think they can sign a vet CB too if they want. That was just one cap move. I don’t know if they really need to sign one though. It’s basically like Nelson or no one for me anyway. 

 

That's true, maybe I should have specified: Ertz or a high-profile vet CB like Nelson? I don't think they could do both.

 

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, Rubes said:

 

That's true, maybe I should have specified: Ertz or a high-profile vet CB like Nelson? I don't think they could do both.

 

I think I’ll go with Ertz. 

[Victory Formation]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was pretty overpaid. Not sure that's the same.

He was overpaid, had injuries but he was not pond scum.

[HappyDays]

35 minutes ago, Rubes said:

 

That's true, maybe I should have specified: Ertz or a high-profile vet CB like Nelson? I don't think they could do both.

 

 

Ertz, no hesitation. CB2 is not that important in McDermott's scheme. Wallace might be a limited player but he doesn't really limit the defense. He's a sound tackler and hits his spot. I still have faith in Dane Jackson too.

 

The offense on the other hand is currently limited to WR only production. I know this is for some reason a controversial opinion around here, but if you traded Knox for Kelce no question in my mind our offense would instantly be better than KC's offense. Not saying Ertz is that good but he is a big upgrade over Knox and gives us a legitimate #1 option at an important position.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Victory Formation said:

He was overpaid, had injuries but he was not pond scum.

 

Not pond scum, no, but Scott Chandler's two best years in Buffalo were better than Charles Clay. 

[Victory Formation]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not pond scum, no, but Scott Chandler's two best years in Buffalo were better than Charles Clay. 

Charles Clay had far more production over the course of his career. He was a good player but had issues with his knees filling up with fluids IIRC, had to constantly have them drained. He was never truly 100% while he was here. Definitely an above average TE, made big plays every here and there sporadically. Chandler was an average run of the mill TE. Charles could of been great if he didn’t have degenerative knee issues.