Rising Tide Lifts All Boats - Schefter sez Jets could get 1st round pick for Darnold

[Malazan]

On 2/4/2021 at 1:31 PM, HOFWingman17 said:

Not sure what this has to do with Sam Darnold. Sam Darnold is a talent and can be successful in the league. Keep in mind our personnel team had two QB's they coveted in that draft. Josh Allen and Sam Darnold. In addition, and without looking it up, Steve Young, Jim Plunkett, Brett Favre, Vinny Testaverde, Johnny Unitas, and Jack Kemp all struggled with their original teams before they went on to have success with their next teams. 

 

Should have read thoroughly to avoid making yourself look silly. 

[GunnerBill]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:20 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

Vera Tucker is a really good player. Whether he is worth a first round pick really comes down to whether you think he can play tackle. I haven't got deep enough into his tackle tape yet to have an answer. 

 

I have done him today. He can play left tackle. He can certainly play right tackle. I'd feel a bit better about him in a true zone scheme - perfect for one of the Shanahan offense teams - Packers, 49ers, Jets, Falcons etc... but he is a 1st round player. 

[Rochesterfan]

 

What I need to know is with the new reports that the Colts are looking at maybe 1 or at max 2 2nd Rd picks for Wentz - Does a receding tide lower all ships?

 

Does Wentz for 1 2nd pick make Darnold really worth a late 2nd or a 3rd?

 

It will also be interesting with the Wilson talk out of Seattle - what impact does that have on these 2 potential trades and the Watson trade from Houston. 
 

Stafford raised the tides, Wentz looked like he is lowering the tides - what ebb and flow.

 

Glad we have our guy!

[4merper4mer]

On 2/9/2021 at 2:55 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

I have done him today. He can play left tackle. He can certainly play right tackle. I'd feel a bit better about him in a true zone scheme - perfect for one of the Shanahan offense teams - Packers, 49ers, Jets, Falcons etc... but he is a 1st round player. 

I was just wondering about this and thinking Vera, Vera, what has become of you?

[GunnerBill]

52 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

What I need to know is with the new reports that the Colts are looking at maybe 1 or at max 2 2nd Rd picks for Wentz - Does a receding tide lower all ships?

 

Does Wentz for 1 2nd pick make Darnold really worth a late 2nd or a 3rd?

 

It will also be interesting with the Wilson talk out of Seattle - what impact does that have on these 2 potential trades and the Watson trade from Houston. 
 

Stafford raised the tides, Wentz looked like he is lowering the tides - what ebb and flow.

 

Glad we have our guy!

 

I'd pay more for Darnold than for Wentz at this point. Wentz was the worst starter in the NFL last year. He has the yips. Maybe he is salvageable. Maybe. But to be honest I doubt it.

[Greg S]

https://twitter.com/LockedOnColts/status/1359934856570888193/photo/1

[ALF]

I would not give up on Sam , with Gase gone build around him . Trade down from #2 for more draft picks . 

[BobbyC81]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

What I need to know is with the new reports that the Colts are looking at maybe 1 or at max 2 2nd Rd picks for Wentz - Does a receding tide lower all ships?

 

Does Wentz for 1 2nd pick make Darnold really worth a late 2nd or a 3rd?

 

It will also be interesting with the Wilson talk out of Seattle - what impact does that have on these 2 potential trades and the Watson trade from Houston. 
 

Stafford raised the tides, Wentz looked like he is lowering the tides - what ebb and flow.

 

Glad we have our guy!

 

How times have changed!  Never seen so much potential QB movement.

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, ColeB said:

 

How times have changed!  Never seen so much potential QB movement.

All it took was for the Bills to finally find their franchise qb.  

[DCOrange]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

What I need to know is with the new reports that the Colts are looking at maybe 1 or at max 2 2nd Rd picks for Wentz - Does a receding tide lower all ships?

 

Does Wentz for 1 2nd pick make Darnold really worth a late 2nd or a 3rd?

 

It will also be interesting with the Wilson talk out of Seattle - what impact does that have on these 2 potential trades and the Watson trade from Houston. 
 

Stafford raised the tides, Wentz looked like he is lowering the tides - what ebb and flow.

 

Glad we have our guy!

I doubt the Wilson stuff has any impact at all, mainly because I doubt anyone actually thinks Wilson is available. They'll call Seattle to check just to make sure, but it's not gonna happen IMO.

 

Not entirely sure Wentz fetches more in a trade than Darnold; I think it'll likely be pretty similar either way. Supposedly Chicago has already put a 1st on the table for Wentz. We'll have to wait and see what happens with Darnold.

 

Personally, if I were the Jets, I'd probably keep Darnold. Aside from cap reasons, I'm not sure any of the rookies in this draft outside of Lawrence would actually be an upgrade over Darnold and I think given how far the Jets are from being a good team, I'd rather not sink another pick into a QB yet. Better to build the team up and evaluate Darnold with actual football talent around him and then if he isn't good enough, add the rookie QB at the end of the rebuild so that you have 5 years to take advantage of their rookie contract rather than only being competitive for 2-3.

[Greg S]

40 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

I doubt the Wilson stuff has any impact at all, mainly because I doubt anyone actually thinks Wilson is available. They'll call Seattle to check just to make sure, but it's not gonna happen IMO.

 

Not entirely sure Wentz fetches more in a trade than Darnold; I think it'll likely be pretty similar either way. Supposedly Chicago has already put a 1st on the table for Wentz. We'll have to wait and see what happens with Darnold.

 

Personally, if I were the Jets, I'd probably keep Darnold. Aside from cap reasons, I'm not sure any of the rookies in this draft outside of Lawrence would actually be an upgrade over Darnold and I think given how far the Jets are from being a good team, I'd rather not sink another pick into a QB yet. Better to build the team up and evaluate Darnold with actual football talent around him and then if he isn't good enough, add the rookie QB at the end of the rebuild so that you have 5 years to take advantage of their rookie contract rather than only being competitive for 2-3.

 

I think the "GHOST GAME" killed Darnold's confidence. If I were the Jets I would move on from him. Even though the Jets are a terrible organization, Darnold still makes the same poor decisions that he was making as a rookie. I don't think he has what it takes from a mental standpoint to play QB at the NFL. This year will be his 4th year in the league and he hasn't established himself as a solid starter yet. For example Allen has shown he has the "IT" factor, Darnold has not. 

[Hebert19]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:22 PM, dneveu said:

 

Bucs could trade 31/32 maybe?  Its just tough because he's burned through his cheap contract.  

I think bears are best fit. 

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

What I need to know is with the new reports that the Colts are looking at maybe 1 or at max 2 2nd Rd picks for Wentz - Does a receding tide lower all ships?

 

Does Wentz for 1 2nd pick make Darnold really worth a late 2nd or a 3rd?

 

It will also be interesting with the Wilson talk out of Seattle - what impact does that have on these 2 potential trades and the Watson trade from Houston. 
 

Stafford raised the tides, Wentz looked like he is lowering the tides - what ebb and flow.

 

Glad we have our guy!

Philly was asking for 2 1sts for Wentz it was rumored to Chicago. 

[mannc]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

I would not give up on Sam , with Gase gone build around him . Trade down from #2 for more draft picks . 

I don’t believe in Darnold, and never have, but this is what I’d do too.  I’d give Darnold one more year, and would not pick up the fifth year option.  

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd pay more for Darnold than for Wentz at this point. Wentz was the worst starter in the NFL last year. He has the yips. Maybe he is salvageable. Maybe. But to be honest I doubt it.

 

I agree that I prefer Darnold as well and think he should be worth more (both as a player and as because of contract).   It was interesting to me that when the Wentz talk started and they were looking for 2 firsts - that made Darnold potentially worth a first, but now that Wentz is settling it at perhaps a mid-late round second from Indy does that impact Darnold.

 

I still think a 2nd for Wentz would justify a late first or early second for Darnold, but I think it does lessen his value a bit.  
 

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

I don’t believe in Darnold, and never have, but this is what I’d do too.  I’d give Darnold one more year, and would not pick up the fifth year option.  

I’m not sure how that helps the Jets.  He plays well then your stuck with investing a lot of money in him after 1 good year.  Let’s be honest, he’d have to have a 2019 Tannehill turnaround year to erase the past 3.  He plays bad and then you wasted a year and passed on a QB at pick 2.  You take what you get for him and move on.  Sucks if you’re a Jets fan but that’s the best thing for their future.  

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, DCOrange said:

I doubt the Wilson stuff has any impact at all, mainly because I doubt anyone actually thinks Wilson is available. They'll call Seattle to check just to make sure, but it's not gonna happen IMO.

 

Not entirely sure Wentz fetches more in a trade than Darnold; I think it'll likely be pretty similar either way. Supposedly Chicago has already put a 1st on the table for Wentz. We'll have to wait and see what happens with Darnold.

 

Personally, if I were the Jets, I'd probably keep Darnold. Aside from cap reasons, I'm not sure any of the rookies in this draft outside of Lawrence would actually be an upgrade over Darnold and I think given how far the Jets are from being a good team, I'd rather not sink another pick into a QB yet. Better to build the team up and evaluate Darnold with actual football talent around him and then if he isn't good enough, add the rookie QB at the end of the rebuild so that you have 5 years to take advantage of their rookie contract rather than only being competitive for 2-3.

 

7 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

I think bears are best fit. 

Philly was asking for 2 1sts for Wentz it was rumored to Chicago. 

 

Yes the original rumor was potentially 2 firsts from Chicago for Wentz, but that seemed to go over in Chicago like a lead ballon.

 

The most recent rumors was Indy looking at perhaps a 2nd to “take on” the contract.

 

I think that is a more realistic return for Wentz.  
 

I agree that I am not sure that impacts Darnold to much, but it really depends on what the team plans to do and do the Jets believe they can salvage Darnold or are they going to lose him for nothing next year because I do not see them exercising the 5th year option.  That gives them a short window around the draft to decide if they want to gain picks and move on or hold on and see what they can do with a new coach and plan.

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I’m not sure how that helps the Jets.  He plays well then your stuck with investing a lot of money in him after 1 good year.  Let’s be honest, he’d have to have a 2019 Tannehill turnaround year to erase the past 3.  He plays bad and then you wasted a year and passed on a QB at pick 2.  You take what you get for him and move on.  Sucks if you’re a Jets fan but that’s the best thing for their future.  

I guess it depends whether there is a QB you like at 2.  Sure, if you love Fields or Wilson, then that’s the way to go.  I kinda doubt that’s the case though.

Edited February 12, 2021 by mannc

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

I think the "GHOST GAME" killed Darnold's confidence. If I were the Jets I would move on from him. Even though the Jets are a terrible organization, Darnold still makes the same poor decisions that he was making as a rookie. I don't think he has what it takes from a mental standpoint to play QB at the NFL. This year will be his 4th year in the league and he hasn't established himself as a solid starter yet. For example Allen has shown he has the "IT" factor, Darnold has not. 

 

So I still think there is hope there for Sam but if he is going to realise it he needs a fresh start IMO. And if I am Robert Saleh I want that too. I'd move on and draft one of Wilson, Fields or Lance. 

[NewEra]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:46 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

So I still think there is hope there for Sam but if he is going to realise it he needs a fresh start IMO. And if I am Robert Saleh I want that too. I'd move on and draft one of Wilson, Fields or Lance. 

But which one would you draft?  
 

after watching about an hour of tape, I’d take Lance last.  Not a fan of his throwing motion. 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, NewEra said:

But which one would you draft?  
 

after watching about an hour of tape, I’d take Lance last.  Not a fan of his throwing motion. 

 

Not dug into them yet, but I think Fields is a  prima facie schematic fit for Mike LaFleur's scheme.

[Thurman#1]

 

On 2/5/2021 at 3:44 AM, eball said:

 

We'll never know.  But I've posted numerous times on this forum that I believe there is one key difference between Josh and Sam.  Josh has the drive and "want-to" to improve and be great.  I'm pretty certain at this point Sam does not.  Buyer beware.

 

 

Your being "pretty sure" amounts to you having an opinion. And everybody does.

 

You might end up being right. Equally, though, you might not. 

 

And yeah, buyer beware. Which is true whenever you get a QB, regardless who he is or how much you give up.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:36 AM, dave mcbride said:

Interesting take. It's got me thinking too - which top 10 QBs didn't produce for their first three years and then flourished a few years later, either for the team that drafted them or elsewhere?  I can think of Jim Plunkett, Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Tannehill (not sure if he fits; he was never really that bad) and Alex Smith. Steve Bartkowski (questionable, but he did have a couple of very good seasons 6-7 years after he was drafted #1 overall), Vinnie Testaverde (similar), and Jeff George (believe it or not, similar) all semi-qualify too.  Maybe Sam Bradford? He played pretty well over the course of 17 games for Minnesota before getting hurt again. Maybe not. 

Anyway, your larger point stands: it's basically a sea of continued failure going back decades for top ten picks who fail out of the gate: http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/qb. 

 

 

 

 

Eli Manning's passer rating topped out at 77.0 in his first three years. Many wanted to label him a bust. Steve McNair.

 

Guys like that are out there.

 

And the only thing that's substantively different about a guy picked in the top ten from a guy picked later is the perception of that guy. Top ten guys may get wasted more profligately, put to start on bad teams when they'd be better off taking the Drew Brees / Patrick Mahomes route.

 

And then it's also pretty fair to say that their development years are treated as their ceiling more than for guys drafted a bit later. People say, "hey, we've seen this guy for three years, we know who he is," which many times just isn't true. Guys like Brees, Alex Smith, Eli and many others take longer to develop sometimes than would be ideal. A guy like Jake Delhomme, on the other hand, because he's not thrown right away to the wolves, gets to sit and learn for a while and can become a pretty good quarterback later in his career without the "top ten" perception forcing him in too early. Same for Aaron Rodgers. Brett Favre.

 

A very significant number of bust top tens, if treated the same way, might well have become good QBs. Or if given a second chance might have proven themselves later.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

A very significant number of bust top tens, if treated the same way, might well have become good QBs. Or if given a second chance might have proven themselves later.

 

I touched on this a little last night, I think:

Many fans fail to acknowledge or appreciate the mathematically impressive variability of the NFL. So many compounding layers of interdependent variables influencing every outcome. It really...complicates things. 

[eball]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Your being "pretty sure" amounts to you having an opinion. And everybody does.

 

You might end up being right. Equally, though, you might not. 

 

And yeah, buyer beware. Which is true whenever you get a QB, regardless who he is or how much you give up.

 

 

 

I’ve never suggested anything I said was more than an opinion.  I do, however, attempt to back up my opinions with pertinent observations and logical deduction.

 

[Doc]

I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve.  Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits.  At best I see him as a low-end starter.

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Doc said:

I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve.  Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits.  At best I see him as a low-end starter.

 

He might not have any elite physical traits but he isn't exactly lacking physically. He has plenty of arm and he can run. For some reason Gase didn't want him to use his legs. I agree that most of his issues are mental. Josh has improved his processing ability so much since coming into the league Darnold hasn't. Now he has been poorly coached and stuck behind a bad line which makes it harder and that is why I think if Darnold has any chance he needs a fresh start in a new place. 

[eball]

31 minutes ago, Doc said:

I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve.  Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits.  At best I see him as a low-end starter.

 

Just to clarify my earlier points regarding Darnold — it’s not that I think he doesn’t want to get better.  I’m sure he does.  It’s that based upon what I’ve observed I don’t think he has the internal drive to do what’s necessary to get there, whereas Josh has that in spades.

 

I want to be a scratch golfer, but my handicap is 14 and hasn’t gone down in a year.  You know why?  Because I’m not practicing every day, studying my swing, going to the range several times a week and putting in the work.  There are days when I’m playing like a single-digit handicap and days when I’m playing like a 20.  I have the ability; I’ll get the results I want when I decide to dedicate the time to it.

 

Something needs to happen to Darnold to make him commit to — you guessed it — the PROCESS of becoming a star quarterback.  All the excuses in the world about different coaches and different receivers doesn’t impact how a player dedicates himself to his craft.

 

[JohnC]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:21 PM, YoloinOhio said:

I’m not a huge Darnold fan going back to his usc days but if Rosen fetched a 2nd... not at all surprised Darnold could go for a late 1st. Jimmy G also went for a 2nd and he had only started like 4 games. 

One team that would be interested in him and would be willing to give up a first round pick would be Washington. It would secure the qb position with a young player with some experience and it would come with a relatively modest cost of one pick. 

[Doc]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

He might not have any elite physical traits but he isn't exactly lacking physically. He has plenty of arm and he can run. For some reason Gase didn't want him to use his legs. I agree that most of his issues are mental. Josh has improved his processing ability so much since coming into the league Darnold hasn't. Now he has been poorly coached and stuck behind a bad line which makes it harder and that is why I think if Darnold has any chance he needs a fresh start in a new place. 

 

I agree.  But having good skills and mental issues is what makes me think he'll only be just a low-end starter at best.  I'm not sure how many HC's/coaching staffs are out there who can work with him enough to get him where he needs to be or even if he has the drive (see below).

 

1 minute ago, eball said:

Just to clarify my earlier points regarding Darnold — it’s not that I think he doesn’t want to get better.  I’m sure he does.  It’s that based upon what I’ve observed I don’t think he has the internal drive to do what’s necessary to get there, whereas Josh has that in spades.

 

I want to be a scratch golfer, but my handicap is 14 and hasn’t gone down in a year.  You know why?  Because I’m not practicing every day, studying my swing, going to the range several times a week and putting in the work.  There are days when I’m playing like a single-digit handicap and days when I’m playing like a 20.  I have the ability; I’ll get the results I want when I decide to dedicate the time to it.

 

Something needs to happen to Darnold to make him commit to — you guessed it — the PROCESS of becoming a star quarterback.  All the excuses in the world about different coaches and different receivers doesn’t impact how a player dedicates himself to his craft.

 

 

I agree with you.  I don't sense that Darnold loves football enough to want to make the extraordinary effort to become a great QB.  But by the same token, I don't think he has it in him to become one anyway.  I don't think Saleh/his coaching staff will be able to take him to the next level, which means another lost season and then probably a career of bouncing-around.

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I agree.  But having good skills and mental issues is what makes me think he'll only be just a low-end starter at best.  I'm not sure how many HC's/coaching staffs are out there who can work with him enough to get him where he needs to be or even if he has the drive (see below).

 

 

I agree with you.  I don't sense that Darnold loves football enough to want to make the extraordinary effort to become a great QB.  But by the same token, I don't think he has it in him to become one anyway.  I don't think Saleh/his coaching staff will be able to take him to the next level, which means another lost season and then probably a career of bouncing-around.

 

We will see. I think Darnold cares. I think at times he cares too much and is trying to force things that aren't there. I think he needs to move on though. Best for him and the Jets IMO.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

We will see. I think Darnold cares. I think at times he cares too much and is trying to force things that aren't there. I think he needs to move on though. Best for him and the Jets IMO.

 

I agree.  Again I don't think this current regime will get him where he need to be.

[GreggTX]

A 1st round pick for Darnold? Who the heck is going to do that?

[Xwnyer]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:16 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://www.nj.com/jets/2021/02/nfl-rumors-jets-can-get-late-1st-round-draft-pick-for-sam-darnold-espns-adam-schefter-reports.html

 

A late 1st round, but still.

 

 

Someone is drinking way to much

[RiotAct]

6 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

A 1st round pick for Darnold? Who the heck is going to do that?

the Texans.  Oh, wait a second...

[BuffaloRebound]

2nd rounder at most for Darnold.  Was in a bad situation but showed almost no improvement in 3 years.  I think I’d take a chance on Mariota over Darnold.  

[PrimeTime101]

On 2/14/2021 at 9:34 AM, Doc said:

I don't think Darnold doesn't want to get better: I think there's only so much he can improve.  Again I say most of his problems are mental and he's got no elite physical traits.  At best I see him as a low-end starter.

this is some amazing assumptions going on here... got any media to support this assumption? from anywhere?

[Doc]

5 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

this is some amazing assumptions going on here... got any media to support this assumption? from anywhere?

The only assumption was saying I believe that Donald does want to improve. I don’t know what’s going on in his mind but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. As for the rest, after seeing him in college and his first three years in the NFL, those are my observations.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

According to this, 5 teams have called and the Jets are putting them off:

https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/new-york-jets-continue-to-receive-trade-interest-for-quarterback-sam-darnold

 

Quote

Last week, Sports Illustrated's Albert Breer reported that four teams had reached out to New York about a possible trade for the 23-year-old quarterback. Breer revealed on Monday that more have called since then.

At least five different teams reaching out gives the Jets quite a few options if they decide to trade Darnold in the near future. According to Breer, however, New York is still giving those teams the same answer: "check back with us soon."

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

50 minutes ago, Doc said:

The only assumption was saying I believe that Donald does want to improve. I don’t know what’s going on in his mind but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. As for the rest, after seeing him in college and his first three years in the NFL, those are my observations.

YEA THAT assumption lol... crazy

[NoHuddleKelly12]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

According to this, 5 teams have called and the Jets are putting them off:

https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/new-york-jets-continue-to-receive-trade-interest-for-quarterback-sam-darnold

 

 

 

Holding out for what the Texans will be bringing to the table I'm sure .