Has Daboll used LESS pre-snap and post-snap motion lately?

[Richard Noggin]

After some brief and fruitless googling, I'd like to ask those savvier than me: is the Bills offense utilizing less offensive motion (pre- or post-snap) lately (like in the playoffs in particular)? 

 

To my eye, when the offense is out of synch (or just LESS in synch) in 2020, I've noticed fewer pre-snap motions and less creativity post-snap. Does Daboll have lapses where he leans too heavily on Allen in a more static shotgun spread? I know 17 has had immense success this season quarterbacking such an attack, but I'm wondering if that sometimes leads to less dynamic, diverse play-calling? 

 

Offensive motion, along with play-action, are two major indicators of successful offenses. And oftentimes in 2020, the Bills are near the top of the league. Where can I find more recent stats breaking down these trends? I'll bet there a few go-to websites that I'm just not privy to. Lazily I tend to rely on posters here and radio and podcasts for such analytics.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

You remember the creativity when it works and forget about it when it doesn't. 

No doubt he is using less Jet sweep action. But he is still moving guys around. He will line up a back out wide and then bring him back in the backfield. A lot of little moves by Diggs along the LOS. 

Against Baltimore it was Knox. He moved him on and off the line frequently and often settling into a H-back stance but instead of outside the tackle he was lined up between the Guard and OT. I don't know what he saw or the reason to do it. Perhaps to deal with blitzes. I'd have to go and see but there was a critical 3rd and short play action pass to Knox that was executed perfectly.  I just don't remember if there was presnap motion on that play.

 

[NewEra]

He’s saving it all for this week.  Gonna be motion all day on Sunday!!  I hope

[Richard Noggin]

19 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

You remember the creativity when it works and forget about it when it doesn't. 

No doubt he is using less Jet sweep action. But he is still moving guys around. He will line up a back out wide and then bring him back in the backfield. A lot of little moves by Diggs along the LOS. 

Against Baltimore it was Knox. He moved him on and off the line frequently and often settling into a H-back stance but instead of outside the tackle he was lined up between the Guard and OT. I don't know what he saw or the reason to do it. Perhaps to deal with blitzes. I'd have to go and see but there was a critical 3rd and short play action pass to Knox that was executed perfectly.  I just don't remember if there was presnap motion on that play.

 

 

There's always the risk of confirmation bias without objective data. Thanks for pointing out some specific examples of recent motion (and the recent lack of jet sweep action). But where do we find the numbers to support what you're saying? Or what I'm "feeling" without knowing if it's at all valid?

19 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He’s saving it all for this week.  Gonna be motion all day on Sunday!!  I hope

 

We can hope.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

One possibility is he’s got certain rules on which types of defenses to use the jet motion and when not, maybe? 
 

another is he might be one of those types that try to fool you with new, so once it’s on film and defense is playing or even mindful of it, you don’t come back to it? 
 

hard to know..

[sven233]

Oh, there has definitely been less.  There were games this year that over 60% of the time they were using some sort of motion, jet action, orbit motion, and all types of eye candy.  So far in the Playoffs, there has been virtually none of it.  You may see something here and there, but it has not been used nearly as much as it was most of the year.

 

And you know what?  I think it has partially been by design.  I think these coaches have been trying to "play the long game" so to speak for quite a while now.  I think seeing Allen using those designed runs against the Colts is a perfect example of it.  After the first few games of the year, that virtually went away until the Colts game.  There are definitely some elements to this offense that they used at points during this year that were very successful that they haven't used so far in the Playoffs.

 

I think there is a definite chance you see some of that eye candy and motion return against the Chiefs and, if we are blessed enough to win this game, in the Super Bowl.  GO BILLS!

[Richard Noggin]

11 minutes ago, sven233 said:

Oh, there has definitely been less.  There were games this year that over 60% of the time they were using some sort of motion, jet action, orbit motion, and all types of eye candy.  So far in the Playoffs, there has been virtually none of it.  You may see something here and there, but it has not been used nearly as much as it was most of the year.

 

And you know what?  I think it has partially been by design.  I think these coaches have been trying to "play the long game" so to speak for quite a while now.  I think seeing Allen using those designed runs against the Colts is a perfect example of it.  After the first few games of the year, that virtually went away until the Colts game.  There are definitely some elements to this offense that they used at points during this year that were very successful that they haven't used so far in the Playoffs.

 

I think there is a definite chance you see some of that eye candy and motion return against the Chiefs and, if we are blessed enough to win this game, in the Super Bowl.  GO BILLS!

 

So you're focusing more on POST-snap motion, yes? I absolutely agree with you (although neither of us has actual numbers to back us up). McKenzie has all but disappeared after his Miami coming-out party.

 

You intimate that such a "withholding" of certain offensive schema might be an intentional, longer-term game to keep some bullets in the chamber, so to speak?

Edited January 20, 2021 by Richard Noggin

[klos63]

Hasn't McKenzie been dealing with an ankle the last couple games, Beasley hurting too has taken less snaps than usual. I think their injuries have had an effect on our play calling.

[Richard Noggin]

23 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Hasn't McKenzie been dealing with an ankle the last couple games, Beasley hurting too has taken less snaps than usual. I think their injuries have had an effect on our play calling.

 

I'd like this as an explanation. Be nice if there was someone who could fill McKenzie's role, of course. But maybe his athletic skillset is unique on the roster, and Daboll mostly implements those jet sweep/eye candy concepts because he has a specific guy who is dangerous in that role...

[blacklabel]

38 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Hasn't McKenzie been dealing with an ankle the last couple games, Beasley hurting too has taken less snaps than usual. I think their injuries have had an effect on our play calling.

 

In addition to this, I think they also were a little hamstrung in the play calling department because of all the bad drive starts against Indy. Whenever a team is backed up in their own end like that it limits your options. And in the first half of that game their average drive start was like their own 8 or something. I felt like I saw a little more motion and movement against Baltimore, where they had much better field position throughout the game. 

 

Hopefully Daboll can really open the playbook and get them into a groove early and then keep it rolling. 

[Punching Bag]

Good news is they have an additional day to plan.

[mjt328]

I've noticed, and figured it had something to do with Isaiah McKenzie's injury.

He exploded for a career day against the Dolphins in Week 17.  Then he almost completely disappeared from our offense.

 

If it's not due to injury, then my guess is that something on film (against the Colts and Ravens) suggested to Daboll that we weren't going have much success with misdirection plays and jet sweeps.  

 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

I think the notion that the Bills have been "saving" things for the Championship and Super Bowl is very unrealistic wishful thinking. They're not going to hold back and risk losing a playoff game. That doesn't happen. They put their best plan together to beat a given opponent, period.

[JimKellyTryouts]

Cover1 showed a few plays on their breakdown which had some motions to help ID coverages, so it's not quite as black and white as it may appear. I agree it's shown up a good bit less, esp jet sweeps and whatnot, but it has been there.

 

From what I recall, lots of the motion and position of the safeties pre snap helped indicate what seemed to be a 0 look, only for the Ravens to haul ass and give a completely different look (Diggs first overthrow, the second overthrow when he was open was a result of Lee Smith doing some motion, among others) 

[Back2Buff]

8 hours ago, klos63 said:

Hasn't McKenzie been dealing with an ankle the last couple games, Beasley hurting too has taken less snaps than usual. I think their injuries have had an effect on our play calling.

 

McKenzie was the scout team QB before Balt so there is no injury there.

 

This offense is best when McKenzie is heavily utilized.  

 

Daboll has gone vanilla on offense in the playoffs, relying on Allen to make something out of nothing.  It is has been a disappointment to say the least.

 

I felt like throughout the season we had the most TDs that didn't involve the QB throwing, and now we have gone extremely boring in the playoffs.

 

Daboll refuses to run the ball with the wind last week and Singletary's success last year vs Balt, could have very well cost him an HC job, I would agree with any team that passes over on him.  He leaves a lot to be desired. 

[Ramza86]

I saw no motions on saturday. I was asking where the heck were they...

 

but then i said obviously there is a reason we didnt cause we have been doing it all year.

 

[SoCal Deek]

We’ve just played against two of the league’s top defenses. That’s not the case this week. Let’s see if the our offense doesn’t look a bit different...I think it will.

[Hebert19]

He has.   Which means we may see more of it this week i think.   Designed runs for Josh and mckenzie to soften the D a bit. 

[Kmart128]

I think it's just cause John Brown is back so McKenzie is getting less playing time. Our 4 reciever sets are typically Gabe, Diggs, Cole and Brown now. He McKenzie was our presnap motion guy but with our recievers healthy he is just seeing less playing time.

[Watkins90]

8 hours ago, blacklabel said:

 

In addition to this, I think they also were a little hamstrung in the play calling department because of all the bad drive starts against Indy. Whenever a team is backed up in their own end like that it limits your options. And in the first half of that game their average drive start was like their own 8 or something. I felt like I saw a little more motion and movement against Baltimore, where they had much better field position throughout the game. 

 

Hopefully Daboll can really open the playbook and get them into a groove early and then keep it rolling. 

I mean, if there was ever a week to open up the playbook, this is it. It's win and go to the SUPER BOWL or lose and watch it from the couch. I'd expect we pull out all the stops this Sunday to get the W. 

[klos63]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

 

McKenzie was the scout team QB before Balt so there is no injury there.

 

This offense is best when McKenzie is heavily utilized.  

 

Daboll has gone vanilla on offense in the playoffs, relying on Allen to make something out of nothing.  It is has been a disappointment to say the least.

 

I felt like throughout the season we had the most TDs that didn't involve the QB throwing, and now we have gone extremely boring in the playoffs.

 

Daboll refuses to run the ball with the wind last week and Singletary's success last year vs Balt, could have very well cost him an HC job, I would agree with any team that passes over on him.  He leaves a lot to be desired. 

Other than the Dolphins game where we sat many regulars, when has McKenzie been heavily utilized?

[Back2Buff]

48 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Other than the Dolphins game where we sat many regulars, when has McKenzie been heavily utilized?

 

SF they had specific plays for him that caused a ton of mismatches all over the field.  Seattle was the same thing.  He had a ton of movement along the line presnap there.

[DCofNC]

If the motion helps get an aggressive D to shift one way or another, it’s worth it.  If not, it’s useless.   Both teams in the playoffs are quite good Ds and have been pretty successful in staying disciplined this year, probably a better strategy to go with a plan that put the ball in the hands of your best.

[Rk_Bills86]

Some of it is injuries - some of it is trying to scheme to specific opponents. To be honest - we've faced some of the toughest match ups for us. KC isn't anywhere near as bad a defensive match for us - and with a health Allen and less than 25 mph winds we should see a huge improvement. 

 

That reminds me - in the first KC game with all the wind and rain and with a hurt Allen we had 2 TDs we missed (A Diggs Drop and an overthrow to a wide open John Brown) We didn't score on either of those drives and the game would have been wildly different imo if we had.

[WEATHER DOT COM]

No trick plays for a bit - we'll see one Sunday

[Bob in Mich]

3 hours ago, JimKellyTryouts said:

Cover1 showed a few plays on their breakdown which had some motions to help ID coverages, so it's not quite as black and white as it may appear. I agree it's shown up a good bit less, esp jet sweeps and whatnot, but it has been there.

 

From what I recall, lots of the motion and position of the safeties pre snap helped indicate what seemed to be a 0 look, only for the Ravens to haul ass and give a completely different look (Diggs first overthrow, the second overthrow when he was open was a result of Lee Smith doing some motion, among others) 

I thought the motion was primarily so that the QB could identify the type of secondary coverage, as said in the above post.  In zone, the D doesn’t scramble to man up on the motion man because they aren’t covering specific players.  In man you see the D cover guy running to match the motion.

 

I don’t know this, maybe some of the more savvy can help, but if the coverage scheme was not being disguised, would the motion be necessary?

[MJS]

For sure he has used it less.

2 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said:

I thought the motion was primarily so that the QB could identify the type of secondary coverage, as said in the above post.  In zone, the D doesn’t scramble to man up on the motion man because they aren’t covering specific players.  In man you see the D cover guy running to match the motion.

 

I don’t know this, maybe some of the more savvy can help, but if the coverage scheme was not being disguised, would the motion be necessary?

It's also to create mismatches in coverage (getting a LB on a WR, for instance), cause deception, and to help playmakers gain speed before the snap.

[Dukestreetking]

Thanks for all the insights above. This issue is interesting for many reasons, as you well know.

 

But to OP's point, where can one find the particular data? I'm sure PFF has it, but behind a paywall.

 

@sven233provided one data point (thanks) but wondering if someone can provide the seasonal no-kidding motion/eye-candy/etc numbers?

 

@Hapless Bills Fanto the rescue?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Dukestreetking said:

Thanks for all the insights above. This issue is interesting for many reasons, as you well know.

 

But to OP's point, where can one find the particular data? I'm sure PFF has it, but behind a paywall.

 

@sven233provided one data point (thanks) but wondering if someone can provide the seasonal no-kidding motion/eye-candy/etc numbers?

 

@Hapless Bills Fanto the rescue?

 

No, that's a great question - how much do the Bills use pre-snap motion, post snap motion etc?  I'm not aware of a free data source on this.

 

My impression watching the games is that we still use good bit of pre-snap motion.  We move WR around to help diagnose man vs zone.  But some teams (Miami I think did this) showed man then dropped into zone, so it's not as useful for that purpose.  We still motion the TE and RB around of course.

 

I think we stopped running as much Jet Sweep/Reverse because the word was out on it, they take time to develop, and teams were diagnosing and jumping on it too fast.   We have to figure out our "tells" on it to make them useful again.

 

There are some splits on pro-football-reference.com

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2020_splits.htm

 

There is a lot of data at Sharp Football stats

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/

 

Quick glance didn't see what you're looking for but a more in depth search might find it.

[Dukestreetking]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No, that's a great question - how much do the Bills use pre-snap motion, post snap motion etc?  I'm not aware of a free data source on this.

 

My impression watching the games is that we still use good bit of pre-snap motion.  We move WR around to help diagnose man vs zone.  But some teams (Miami I think did this) showed man then dropped into zone, so it's not as useful for that purpose.  We still motion the TE and RB around of course.

 

I think we stopped running as much Jet Sweep/Reverse because the word was out on it, they take time to develop, and teams were diagnosing and jumping on it too fast.   We have to figure out our "tells" on it to make them useful again.

 

There are some splits on pro-football-reference.com

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2020_splits.htm

 

There is a lot of data at Sharp Football stats

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/

 

Quick glance didn't see what you're looking for but a more in depth search might find it.

Thanks Hap. I'll look thru these data.

 

You're always there for us man, sniffle, sniffle...