Why are we so bad covering the TE?

[Boatdrinks]

Every scheme has a weakness, and it’s somewhat of a choice with the Bills combined with personnel issues. Bottom line, there is no perfect defense . You choose what damage you most want to limit. That’s the chess match. The Colts are a balanced offense that does a lot of things well, if nothing exceptionally. The vanilla gameplan by McD and Frazier was a reflection of that. The Ravens, on the other hand are a very specialized offense and the Bills defensive gameplan is sure to reflect that. Just review last year’s Ravens game for evidence. The Defense will need to execute at a high level , no doubt. It’s a big ask, but far from an impossible one. Jackson can blow up even a great gameplan, but it’s not inevitable that he will. The flip side of the equation is the Bills offense. They were a weak unit last season , but are now at an elite level. The Ravens scored 20 points on a very bad 3rd down defense. If the Bills offense functions at a level near what they’ve been the last 6 or 7 weeks they will be able to win this game. 

[colin]

this is a great question.

 

i really think the D played well, but got figured out the 3rd and 2nd last drive where we got absolutely trucked, but righted the ship late.  i really think our D plays rock paper scissors, and if we get caught off or have a couple back to back bad plays, it falls apart some.

 

vs baltimore they really need to add some wrinkles, have to stop lamar running, but on any obv passing down they have to not have predictable pass offs, or else we will see a lot of TE completions.

[longtimebillsfan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Junction said:

We play nickel instead of big nickel. None of our LBers have really stepped up against TEs this season. All of our DBs are 6’ or under. This defense has been inconsistent with passing off TEs from on defender to another. The pass rush has given TEs time to settle into zones or get down the seam. 

I thought Milano has great cover skills.   With his size, shouldn't he be able to match up against mist TEs?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Weird thing is last year we were great vs tight ends. 

 

Other than a couple plays Saturday the Bills were in tight coverage vs tight ends and just didn't make plays. Rivers was dealing. 

 

Ravens love to use multiple TEs also so they better step up. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Not sure you all noticed this, but earlier in the game, Tre seemed to be on Doyle. You wonder if they do something similar with him on Andrews.

 

Reminds me of when we played the chiefs back in the day, and the Bills

would Use Antoine Winfield to shadow Tony Gonzalez. 

[Livinginthepast]

What pissed me off was that they were exploiting our weakness here throughout the game and we didn't adjust. There is not much point in a defensive coordinator being on the sidelines if he cant understand quickly what is happening in the game and change the schemes. I could understand if the catches werent hurting us but many of the TE grabs were killing us!

[Rock'em Sock'em]

IMO - If our front four could eat up the RBs more often, our LBs and Safeties would be more inclined to cover the TEs. Andrews is definitely coverable by our guys, but if the LBs are chasing Jackson and Dobbins, who is left to cover Andrews?  Kelce is a tough matchup for any defense and there's no stopping that connection short of double coverage or an incredible pass rush.  Tre White was able to frustrate Gronk the other year.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Rock'em Sock'em

[947]

9 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

What pissed me off was that they were exploiting our weakness here throughout the game and we didn't adjust. There is not much point in a defensive coordinator being on the sidelines if he cant understand quickly what is happening in the game and change the schemes. I could understand if the catches werent hurting us but many of the TE grabs were killing us!

Yep, I totally expected us to come out in the 2nd half with an adjustment on the TE crossers. Then, nothing...

 

I was half expecting McD to take over the Defensive play calling, but that never happened either.

[Kwai San]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Looking at Ravens personnel, they only throw to 3 players.  One is a fast shifty guy in Brown (tre White), one us a big WR in Snead and the other is a stud Tight End. Wallace and Taron Johnson could be liabilities on Saturday.  Maybe more Josh Norman who’s a bigger CB and more Milano in the big nickel role are the answer.  

 

Please no Norman.......please

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

Dugger was looked at the play the Big Nickel spot. He is saying our nickel corners aren't big or athletic enough to match up well on TEs

This year’s draft there’s Jamien Sherwood and Divine Deablo later in draft 

[RyanC883]

is Edmunds good in pass coverage?  I have no idea.  His run defense is not great.  

 

I was surprised by the Colts TE exploitation against us.  I would expect to see Poyer more involved in either spying on Lamar and/or covering a TE.  

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Looking at Ravens personnel, they only throw to 3 players.  One is a fast shifty guy in Brown (tre White), one us a big WR in Snead and the other is a stud Tight End. Wallace and Taron Johnson could be liabilities on Saturday.  Maybe more Josh Norman who’s a bigger CB and more Milano in the big nickel role are the answer.  

Norman or Dane Jackson 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

7 minutes ago, Kwai San said:

Please no Norman.......please

Why so much shade about Norman? To my eyes, Norman neither stands out significantly better or worse than other options.

 

Norman: Allowed 19 catches on 27 targets, 23 solo tackles in 344 snaps, a couple game changing plays.

Levi Wallace: Allowed 34 catches on 61 targets, 43 solo tackles in 612 snaps, 2 picks.

For what it's worth, PFF grade is 9 points higher for Norman compared to Wallace.

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5 minutes ago, Rock'em Sock'em said:

Why so much shade about Norman? To my eyes, Norman neither stands out significantly better or worse than other options.

 

Norman: Allowed 19 catches on 27 targets, 23 solo tackles in 344 snaps, a couple game changing plays.

Levi Wallace: Allowed 34 catches on 61 targets, 43 solo tackles in 612 snaps, 2 picks.

For what it's worth, PFF grade is 9 points higher for Norman compared to Wallace.

 

Norman allows a catch 70% of the time he is targeted? 

[Hebert19]

2 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

We play base nickel...this should be easy. I dont get it.

 

I think for about half of the year ive been screaming...please cover the freaking tight end.

 

Yesterday I was boiling watching it unfold again.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

Easy.  We play nickel so we need to be up to the line to stop the run...which means we have to back off to cover and are susceptible as a result. 

[Kwai San]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Norman allows a catch 70% of the time he is targeted? 

 

This is my shade against Norman!!!  He is also a big play tackler....going for the rare strip rather than the stop.....

[Billever76]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

Lots of zone.  There are soft spots in zones.  In cover 2 its between the safeties, in cover 3 and cover 4 its usually nearer to the hash marks.  This is usually where TEs run their routes.

Exactly!...its Frazier scheme....problem being that cover 2 will not work this week!....we need Frazier to get out of his default scheme and come up with something else....lamar doesn't hit his wideouts with consistency esp on routes outside the hashes....move coverage more towards the middle of the field and up closer than the cover 2 Frazier loves to run....we play the bend but don't break this week we will break all over the place and it will in turn limit our offense as Baltimore will hold the ball on long drives.....make them beat us with the big play and don't give up the dink and dunk and run plays this week....we need to put down the tampon 2 defense this week and become aggressive imo

[Straight Hucklebuck]

7 minutes ago, Kwai San said:

 

This is my shade against Norman!!!  He is also a big play tackler....going for the rare strip rather than the stop.....

Well the 2nd half of the Colts game, who else noticed him lined up in press across from Hilton. 

 

Now at that point, Rivers was obsessed with the middle of the field, and despite no pass, never even looked Hilton's way. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

Exactly!...its Frazier scheme....problem being that cover 2 will not work this week!....we need Frazier to get out of his default scheme and come up with something else....lamar doesn't hit his wideouts with consistency esp on routes outside the hashes....move coverage more towards the middle of the field and up closer than the cover 2 Frazier loves to run....we play the bend but don't break this week we will break all over the place and it will in turn limit our offense as Baltimore will hold the ball on long drives.....make them beat us with the big play and don't give up the dink and dunk and run plays this week....we need to put down the tampon 2 defense this week and become aggressive imo

 

They tend to run things like palms quarters coverage.  If they're over the middle the safeties would move in and the corners bail and play it like quarters, if there are short boundary routes the corners sit on them and the middle of the field is more open.  

[jethro_tull]

Great question!   The situation reminds me of the bad Bills of not too long ago where Nickel Roby-C, Ron Darby and Corey Graham tried to cover the likes of Gronk, Travis Kelce and Tyler Eifert.   Bad memories man!   

  

This is why big fast TEs are an effective weapon and one I hope the Bills fortify ASAP.  It just ain't that easy, even if they are covered they tend to catch the ball.  

[Kwai San]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well the 2nd half of the Colts game, who else noticed him lined up in press across from Hilton. 

 

Now at that point, Rivers was obsessed with the middle of the field, and despite no pass, never even looked Hilton's way. 

 

This is why he wasn't looking Hilton's way.....he didn't need to nor was he forced too......run those plays all day long until they are stopped then move to the next one......

[ngbills]

No analysis - just memory recall. It seems like a lot of TE's get open finding holes in our zone or when defenders are switching in coverage. This is likely play design when OC's look at our pass coverage and can identify holes. A lot seem to come on blitzes as the QB has enough time to still get the ball out and TE's tend to be the hot read. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I've thought about it. 

 

On Saturday it looked like multiple issues. 

 

There were times when Mo-Allie Cox boxed out the safety, times where Milano just stopped running and let his Tight End go, and other times where the Indy Tight Ends just ran past our defenders easily. 

 

We looked lost across the middle of the field. You had Pittman running across the formation, Doyle had a huge game running down the seam, Hilton had limited impact on the outside, but his big catch was down the middle. 

 

So was it a case of playing our 2-deep shell too deep to prevent the big play?  

[Livinginthepast]

I thought that LA did a decent job containing Seattles TEs. Stats though showed DK Metcalf was targeted 11X but caught 5. He still had 2 tds and 96 yards! You cannot stop a lot of these big TEs but if you can contain when it counts you can mitigate the bleeding!

[Southern Bills Fan]

Rivers also dropped in some dimes on plays where we did have decent coverage. I'm not sure Lamar can do that.

[dollars 2 donuts]

3 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

There’s a reason the Bills were all over the guy Patriots took before us in the 2nd round.  

 

 

Actually, BR, I believe the Pats took Gronkowski AFTER we took Torrell Troup in the second round of the 2010 draft.

 

EDIT:  Yep

 

http://www.mynfldraft.com/2010/round2/

 

 

[The Jokeman]

2 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

We need to force Lamar to pass it to his WR’s. It looks like he is praying every time he had to throw it to a WR.

Agreed and I'd like to see White follow Marquise Brown to limit his options even more. 

[Livinginthepast]

10 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Actually, BR, I believe the Pats took Gronkowski AFTER we took Torrell Troup in the second round of the 2010 draft.

 

EDIT:  Yep

 

http://www.mynfldraft.com/2010/round2/

 

 

Torrel Troup what a diamond in the rough he turned out to be!!

[Golden]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

We play nickel instead of big nickel. None of our LBers have really stepped up against TEs this season. All of our DBs are 6’ or under. This defense has been inconsistent with passing off TEs from on defender to another. The pass rush has given TEs time to settle into zones or get down the seam. 

Yes!  Especially the time factor fie opposing TEs to settle in to zones 

[Billsatlastin2018]

SMURFS!

 

Aaaaaaand, on the O, get one for ourselves, who catches the ball... always!

[Golden]

33 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I've thought about it. 

 

On Saturday it looked like multiple issues. 

 

There were times when Mo-Allie Cox boxed out the safety, times where Milano just stopped running and let his Tight End go, and other times where the Indy Tight Ends just ran past our defenders easily. 

 

We looked lost across the middle of the field. You had Pittman running across the formation, Doyle had a huge game running down the seam, Hilton had limited impact on the outside, but his big catch was down the middle. 

 

So was it a case of playing our 2-deep shell too deep to prevent the big play?  

Milano is a very good player, no knock on him.....most frustrating when he passed off Doyle to the invisible man in the end zone. That is our scheme with issues or communication issues 

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

Am I crazy to think the best way to beat Lamar is to only rush 3-4, rarely blitz, don’t let it turn into school yard ball where once he escapes the pressure he runs for 20-50 yards?

 

Clog up the middle of the field, instead of blitzing use Milano/Edmunds or a safety to spy Lamar.

 

I’d be stuffing that box all day, daring him to beat the secondary deep and outside.

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Lots of zone.  There are soft spots in zones.  In cover 2 its between the safeties, in cover 3 and cover 4 its usually nearer to the hash marks.  This is usually where TEs run their routes.

Exactly. Its 2 things, first our pass rush is mediocre.  Secondly we're playing a soft zone constantly. It has nothing to do with the size or speed of our dbs/lbs. TE's can easily settle into big gaps and just wait for the ball. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

Exactly. Its 2 things, first our pass rush is mediocre.  Secondly we're playing a soft zone constantly. It has nothing to do with the size or speed of our dbs/lbs. TE's can easily settle into big gaps and just wait for the ball. 

 

Sometimes its coverage mistakes by the linebackers, but you're willing to give up small chunks because at the end of the day your goal is stopping them on 3rd downs and in RZ.  One defensive play, or drop, or bad throw (there were all of these in this game against indy) and it stalls a drive. 

 

They missed a FG, got stopped on a 4th and punted twice in buffalo territory.  Probably a little more bending than they'd like, but they didn't break either.

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, CapeBreton said:

 

Kyle Dugger? You're saying we need a huge safety to cover these TE's and Hyde/Poyer aren't the answer?

 

 

 

Kinda yeah.

 

"Given the challenges of defending hybrid tight ends, defensive coordinators are better served pitting an athletic safety with corner-like cover skills against a big-bodied pass catcher. Safeties are quick enough to run with these types of tight ends down the seam, while also possessing the athleticism to battle on post-ups and 50-50 balls in the red zone.

 

"Most importantly, the presence of a hybrid safety on the field gives a defensive coordinator the freedom to use man or zone coverage without tipping his hand prior to the snap, which is a huge win for the defense."

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/big-nickel-package-emerging-as-nfl-s-hottest-defensive-trend-0ap3000000375711

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Kinda yeah.

 

"Given the challenges of defending hybrid tight ends, defensive coordinators are better served pitting an athletic safety with corner-like cover skills against a big-bodied pass catcher. Safeties are quick enough to run with these types of tight ends down the seam, while also possessing the athleticism to battle on post-ups and 50-50 balls in the red zone.

 

"Most importantly, the presence of a hybrid safety on the field gives a defensive coordinator the freedom to use man or zone coverage without tipping his hand prior to the snap, which is a huge win for the defense."

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/big-nickel-package-emerging-as-nfl-s-hottest-defensive-trend-0ap3000000375711

 

 

At this stage of their careers?  Taron Johnson is probably more effective than Dugger.  I think baltimore still runs more 11 than any other formation - so he'll likely get a fair amount of snaps.  

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said:

Torrel Troup what a diamond in the rough he turned out to be!!

 

 

Again, he was. 

 

The story came out a few years ago. He was kicking asses and taking names in camp his second year, he'd really gotten a ton better. And he hurt his back and then was urged to keep playing. He could have been extremely good.

 

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/torell-troup-the-one-drafted-a-pick-ahead-of-rob-gronkowski/article_5b363410-dbdd-503c-a774-69fedf3d37d7.html

 

 

"When Gronkowski was scoring more touchdowns than any tight end ever in 2011, Troup was, as he said, 'all doped up' on Toradol to survive Sundays. During the week, he chugged pain pills like Tic Tacs. Troup played that season with a fractured back – his disc slipping, jamming into nerves – enduring the most unthinkable pain he doesn’t wish upon his worst enemies.

 

"Teammates told him to quit. Coaches, he claims, told him to play. So he played to the literal point of tears and the subsequent L4/L5 spinal fusion ended his career.

 

"He’s more casualty of a ruthless business than bust. More commodity chewed up and spit out by the NFL than outright failure. Each creak of a joint in the a.m. is his aching reminder of his season from hell."

 

 

 

 

... and ...

 

 

 

"His rookie year was OK. A start. This second season would be dynamite.

 

"Through the 2011 lockout, Troup trained with a vengeance. He reported to training camp at a chiseled 319 pounds, eager to break out. Practices began at St. John Fisher and the kid who had 23 tackles and no sacks the year prior was dominant for stretches.

 

“'Honestly, I was killing the offensive line,' Troup said. 'Eric Wood, I’m good friends with him, but they couldn’t handle me.'

 

"One day in the lunchroom, head coach Chan Gailey and General Manager Buddy Nix couldn’t contain their excitement. The two asked Troup to sit down with them and told this bull in a china shop they had no clue what he did over the offseason, but, wow, were they ecstatic to see this all transfer to game day.

 

"Their words added more fuel to Troup’s fire. His tear continued. Teammates today still remember Troup’s raw strength.

 

“'Low center of gravity,' guard Kraig Urbik said. 'Super strong. Legs were very thick. Strong dude – he was tough to move for sure.'

 

“'He was a strong dude,' Wood said.

“'Big, powerful guy,' added veteran Kyle Williams. 'He’s probably not your pass rusher, but a guy who could stack things up at the line and make plays at the line of scrimmage and do some good things there.'

 

"Reached by phone, Nix instantly remembers this camp well.

 

“'Those big guys are hard to find! Especially him,' Nix said. 'He had some movement ability and was really a strong anchor guy.'

 

"As Nix recalls, the Bills were shifting to a 3-4 scheme when they took Troup and needed a nose to take on double teams.

 

"He doesn’t remember teams being scared off by Gronkowski’s injury history, but the Arizona tight end was the one with the shoddy Carfax report. Back surgery sidelined him his entire final season at Arizona. Troup? He missed a few games due to a knee scope as a freshman but was healthy in totaling 52 tackles (12.5 for loss) as a junior and 35 tackles (five for loss) as a senior.

 

"Then, without warning, his world started to crumble down."

 

 

... and ...

 

 

"Troup missed one week of practice, wrapped the paw in a club and was prepared to punctuate his knockout summer in the preseason finale against Detroit. To this day, he cannot pinpoint the play, the moment, but during this game he fractured his lower back.

 

“'I played all through the game doped up, [after playing with a badly broken hand]' he said, 'so I couldn’t feel it.'

 

"On Wednesday, it felt like he pulled both hamstrings. He received an epidural. Tests later revealed the fracture. A disc in his back was slipping and pushing against nerves, causing burning and numbness down his legs.

 

"Troup sat out the first three weeks of the season and returned.

 

“'It’s easy to look back now and say, "I should have sat my ass down,”' Troup said. 'But I was young. I was stupid. And it cost me my career.'"

 

 

 

It's a Tyler Dunne story, and a good one. I've only excerpted about 25 - 30% there.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

8 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

At this stage of their careers?  Taron Johnson is probably more effective than Dugger.  I think baltimore still runs more 11 than any other formation - so he'll likely get a fair amount of snaps.  

 

 

Haven't kept close track of Dugger since the Pats got him but he'd likely have been the Bills pick if he'd made it there. I wouldn't be surprised if Taron's playing better right now, he's a third year guy and Dugger's a rookie. But the Pats have said Dugger has gotten a lot better late in the season. He's certainly gotten a lot more snaps the second half of the year.

 

Though Taron's really tough for his size, the two aren't much alike. Dugger is a bit of a chess piece for Belichick and he covers TEs quite a bit. Dugger's about 25 pounds heavier but has a smidge faster 40, but though Dugger didn't run the shuttle, Johnson probably would beat him in quickness.

 

I'm happy with Johnson, especially where we drafted him, but IMO we'll see someone like Dugger in Buffalo in the next two or three years.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Haven't kept close track of Dugger since the Pats got him but he'd likely have been the Bills pick if he'd made it there. I wouldn't be surprised if Taron's playing better right now, he's a third year guy and Dugger's a rookie. But the Pats have said Dugger has gotten a lot better late in the season. He's certainly gotten a lot more snaps the second half of the year.

 

Though Taron's really tough for his size, the two aren't much alike. Dugger is a bit of a chess piece for Belichick and he covers TEs quite a bit. Dugger's about 25 pounds heavier but has a smidge faster 40, but though Dugger didn't run the shuttle, Johnson probably would beat him in quickness.

 

I'm happy with Johnson, especially where we drafted him, but IMO we'll see someone like Dugger in Buffalo in the next two or three years.

 

I don't really disagree.  Nickel CBs were always traditionally smaller to match up with slot WRs.  But as teams start bringing athletic freaks onto the team, and moving them around the formation, its nice to have someone to match up physically.  

[Patrick Duffy]

I don't think the Ravens TE's are quite as big as Doyle (think that's his name) for the Colts is. He just looked huge out there and was making good plays for much of that game.

 

I feel like the Ravens TE's may not be quite as difficult to contain, at least I hope anyways.